Controversy on the "Holding call rulings" at present

[Old Cardinal]

I have been quite appalled at the immergence of a change in what constitutes "Holding". At one time, holding was holding at any point on the field. The stance by the Ref. Associations, today, now has changed to "holding is only called near the area of the play activity". Now when a back changes direction radically- then his team might have 4 people holding in the area of the progress of the play. This gives the Ref's a choice on what they choose to call, either way- they have a valid arguement!....On the other hand those same holding efforts would not be called IF the back had continued on a straight-forward run.....What this has done is PUT THE REFEREES IN A POSITION TO CALL HOLDING JUST ANY OLD TIME THEY CHOOSE, since holding is now acceptable arbitrally. I hate so see the officiating in a position to swing a game; so blatenly to which ever team they choose to favor. Holding is holding and the infraction should be called irregardless where it is done on the field because many good teams have backs that reverse their field quite often. ANY DISCUSSION?

<small>[ December 09, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[JasperDog94]

Something about a guy's jersey being around his earhole makes me think that the refs occasionally turn a blind eye. wink

[TXMike]

Old Cardinal:
I have been quite appalled at the immergence of a change in what constitutes "Holding". At one time, holding was holding at any point on the field. The stance by the Ref. Associations, today, now has changed to "holding is only called near the area of the play activity". Now when a back changes direction radically- then his team might have 4 people holding in the area of the progress of the play. This gives the Ref's a choice on what they choose to call, either way- they have a valid arguement!....On the other hand those same holding efforts would not be called IF the back had continued on a straight-forward run.....What this has done is PUT THE REFEREES IN A POSITION TO CALL HOLDING JUST ANY OLD TIME THEY CHOOSE, since holding is now acceptable arbitrally. I hate so see the officiating in a position to swing a game; so blatenly to which ever team they choose to favor. Holding is holding and the infraction should be called irregardless where it is done on the field because many good teams have backs that reverse their field quite often. ANY DISCUSSION?

The first thing is that your assumption about officials "swinging a game" in whichever direction they choose is completly without merit. If officials were going to do that, they could and would do that without resorting to holding calls.

Now to discuss holding enforcement. The current thought among officials at ALL levels (high school through NFL) is that blocking rules have been so liberalized over the years it has made it near impossible to catch all the "holding" that goes on. Therefore, we need to concentrate on those holds at the "point of attack" which put the defender at a disadvantage. Example: Off. tackle is holding a def tackle but the tackle still manages to get on the ball carrier and make the tackle. There is no reason to flag this hold.

Holding is not a "safety" issue, which is why it is only penalized by 10 yards instead of 15. Some fouls, like clipping, are dangerous and have a 15 yard penalty. They will be called wherever they are seen.

Part of the problem many fans and coaches have with "holding" is that they do not even understand what a hold is. Simply grabbing a jersey is not holding. The jersey must be grabbed and pulled, or the jersey grabbed and player twisted. If the "hold" does not obstruct or impede the player (yes this is a judgment call), there is no hold.

You want to solve this dilemma, let's go back to the old days when you could not use your hands at all. The offenses will come to a crashing halt and the games will take much longer as we deal with all the penalties.

[Old Cardinal]

Sir: The kids "holding" not at the point of attack, have no idea that the runner has changed his course and therefore they are now holding where the new point of attack is being established. It would seem that since you are letting kids hold all over the parameters, then the kids that don't know where the ball carrier has shifted to- would not be doing a valid "hold" meriting a valid foul! Sir, I respectfully can only see double-talk in any firm assessment of what a valid "hold" is under your new definitions. When, in the immediate old days, "anyone caught holding anywhere on the field,is subject to a foul call", then and only then, have the Ref's removed their power to call it any way they want it. Under the rules interpertions today, you guys can manufacture an answer for any given situation.....It saw a poorly called game this year between Orangefield and Port Neches-Groves, all of a sudden the Ref's started calling holds on OF on every play-not at the point of attack(as you call it). It would appear that both kids and Coaches have no idea what criteria you are going to use in any quarter of the ballgame, in all too many cases!

[TXMike]

Old Cardinal:
Sir: The kids "holding" not at the point of attack, have no idea that the runner has changed his course and therefore they are now holding where the new point of attack is being established. It would seem that since you are letting kids hold all over the parameters, then the kids that don't know where the ball carrier has shifted to- would not be doing a valid "hold" meriting a valid foul! Sir, I respectfully can only see double-talk in any firm assessment of what a valid "hold" is under your new definitions. When, in the immediate old days, "anyone caught holding anywhere on the field,is subject to a foul call", then and only then, have the Ref's removed their power to call it any way they want it. Under the rules interpertions today, you guys can manufacture an answer for any given situation.....It saw a poorly called game this year between Orangefield and Port Neches-Groves, all of a sudden the Ref's started calling holds on OF on every play-not at the point of attack(as you call it). It would appear that both kids and Coaches have no idea what criteria you are going to use in any quarter of the ballgame, in all too many cases!

I don't think you are a coach, but if you are then you might want to contact your local Chapter of TASO and ask for a mini-clinic. At that session you can ask about the philosophy of holding and hopefuly you will understand. Seems to me you have a particular beef with refs in a particular game and calls against a particular team. Your comments re that 1 specific situation may be merited. I don't know as I was not at that game. I am just telling you what we are taught at our state-level meetings and what we (at least in my Chapter) teach our membership.

You can choose to call it "double talk" but we (or most of us anyway) understand the fine points of the rule which are clearly beyond the capability of many fans to understand.

That game you mentioned was one of those weather-affected matchups wasn't it? Maybe there were things going on outside of the flags which affected the game?

[Da Mules]

You make me feel OLD, You Young whippershnappers!! Back in the Real Old Days of high-top black Rawlings and cast-iron ankle wraps (Stone Age days) the zebers called holding on you if you didn't have both fists balled up in your jersey!! Didn't matter if you were on the opposite sideline or end zone---harumph; point of attack, my A$$. IronMan football, me buckos--every team was the Junction Boys! Headslaps were legal and darn well expected in them days, and Coach taught us to block and tackle with our facemask first! Hit em in the numbers with your facemask and don't dare blink, you wussy! And Dear Lord forbid if you so much as dreamed of a drop of water during practice.. water....what was we talking about...where's my dentures?

[Pudlugger]

Da Mules:
You make me feel OLD, You Young whippershnappers!! Back in the Real Old Days of high-top black Rawlings and cast-iron ankle wraps (Stone Age days) the zebers called holding on you if you didn't have both fists balled up in your jersey!! Didn't matter if you were on the opposite sideline or end zone---harumph; point of attack, my A$$. IronMan football, me buckos--every team was the Junction Boys! Headslaps were legal and darn well expected in them days, and Coach taught us to block and tackle with our facemask first! Hit em in the numbers with your facemask and don't dare blink, you wussy! And Dear Lord forbid if you so much as dreamed of a drop of water during practice.. water....what was we talking about...where's my dentures?

Yeah man those were the days! i had a single bar for a facemask. The DT would put his forearm through it and give me a bloody nose. That would happen usually on the first play of the game to set the tone for the rest of the night. I thought I had the best equipment 'cause other guys had no facemasks and those leather helmets! Holding? You couldn't use your hands at all, just block with your forearms and elbows. Wow, has the game changed, now you have to tackle a guy to get a holding call! LOL

[Old Cardinal]

Well TXMike, I believe you have answered the question for me, when you stated, "We understand the fine points of the rule which is clearly beyond the capability of many fans to understand." I think you have really answered the question, with this statement, for a lot of us!....No, it was not just one game this year that I am referring to-you experts have called the full spectrum from nit-picking to free-for-alls, on holding calls. By allowing selective holding on the field, you opened the pandora box of everyone calling it any way they choose, because no standard can be established or adhered too..

[TXMike]

Old Cardinal:
By allowing selective holding on the field, you opened the pandora box of everyone calling it any way they choose, because no standard can be established or adhered too..

I am not sure why you have such a fixation on holding...there are MANY fouls that are called differently from Chapter to Chapter, and in some cases, even within the Chapter. There is NO way much of what goes on in a football game can be made black and white. There has to be room for gray. As a result, the NFL has adopted a standard which has started filtering down to other levels. That standard is called "advantage/disadvantage". If an act does not cause advantage to one team or disadvantage to another, then it should not be flagged.

The NCAA coaches write the rules but what goes on in Texas HS football has always had significant impact on the NCAA rules committee. If Texas coaches want something done differently, they can take it to the NCAA or they can even just take it to UIL and have a UIL exception made. There are already several such in the rulebook.

Fans obviously have limited impact but one thing they CAN do is join our ranks. Maybe they can then see games officiated the way they want them to be.

[JasperDog94]

You said it OC. When the rules are left up to the refs to decide what constitutes a "point of attack" then we all lose. Each ref has a different point of view on the field PLUS a different view of what constitutes a hold. I guess it's kind of like the strike zone in baseball. Some pitchers get the outside fastball called a strike while some don't. I call it "The Barry Bonds Rule". Some people get the benefit of the doubt while some don't.

Answer me this: If a quarterback is rolling to his left and a defensive back is on the other hash mark and is being held, is he anywhere near the "point of attack"? Probably not. BUT if the quarterback runs back across the field, then completes a pass, would he not have been stopped by the defensive back that was being held earlier?

Just food for thought.

[TXMike]

JasperDog94:

Answer me this: If a quarterback is rolling to his left and a defensive back is on the other hash mark and is being held, is he anywhere near the "point of attack"? Probably not. BUT if the quarterback runs back across the field, then completes a pass, would he not have been stopped by the defensive back that was being held earlier?

Just food for thought.

By the time the QB gets back over to where the "hold" was, I doubt the "hold" will still be going on and the DB can go make the tackle. Most "holds" are of very short duration. If it lasted so long that it was still going on when the QB got back over there, it would likely be flagged.

<small>[ December 10, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: TXMike ]</small>

[JasperDog94]

TXMike,

I'm not trying to dog any official. I know you guys have a tough job to do. I've worked the chains on the sidelines several times and I know that you can't see everything. My main concern is that holding is holding...period. Just because a foul doesn't effect the outcome of the play doesn't mean that there wasn't a foul.

I am really concerned about this "point of attack" reference made in this post. It would actually make the refs job easier if they didn't have to make judgement calls like that. If there is a foul, then throw the flag.

You guys do a great job almost all the time. It's kind of like posters on this forum. A couple of knuckleheads can give everyone a bad name. Keep up the good work.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Interesting thread...

Here are a couple of novice observations I will add..

1.) isn't each of the officials charged with watching different parts of the play? If this is done, how can all holding calls be made, (i.e. not ever player can be watched all the time)

2.) I cannot see how and district, much less region or state organization of officials can call games the same. I think different crews will call games slightly different, and the differences would become more exagerrated for the bigger the organization.

3.) on the DE being held in the example above, I do not think that would be called holding, unless the QB was to reverse course and make the hold highly visible AND be considered an impact on the play.

Just my $.02

[PappaBear]

Holds happen on every play, if the refs where to call them all it wouldn't be very fun to watch, or play. coaches teach players to hold inside the numbers grabing the shoulder pads, so it is not out in the open refs know this and only call holding when a players hands grab up on the shoulder or go around the back and pull the jersey away from the body or grab on to the pants or leg.

[Jacket2000]

I agree with most of the posters on this thread. If the "hold" doesn't affect the play, then dont call it. If the runner changes directions and suddenly the "hold" has an impact, then throw the flag. If it's meaningless, then let the kids play!
J2K