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  1. #61

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    I know this is just one source.... but hereís an article that says some of the same things Iíve said... with real data...

    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...-many-teachers

    I am the only person on this thread who has posted anything that supports my claims. Debate is good when itís more than just offended people attacking an opinionated person....

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saggy Aggie View Post
    I know this is just one source.... but here’s an article that says some of the same things I’ve said... with real data...

    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...-many-teachers

    I am the only person on this thread who has posted anything that supports my claims. Debate is good when it’s more than just offended people attacking an opinionated person....
    I'm certainly not offended and I don't believe I'm attacking you for disagreeing with your position. Its your right to think and say whatever you want. I happen to know/think different because its been my profession for over 2 decades. I can tell you for certain that during a coaches "season" (especially football) that most will work upwards of 80-120 (or more) hours per week. My personal "average" during football would be 6:45am - 7:30pm (monday-wedns) and 6:45am to 10:30pm (thurs-friday).....then 8am-3pm (sat).....then 1pm-8pm (sun).

    I wish like hell I was on hourly instead of salary. Most teachers would agree.

    (edit) Regarding the New York Times article you posted, its clearly an advocacy for "incentive based" income for teachers. I would fight to my death to oppose that. Absolutely not. Never.....

    You can take the best teacher in the world and place them in an area of low-income families and their test scores are not going to be up to par when compared to an area of high-income families. In other words, take a crappy teacher and place them in an affluent area and his/her scores (regardless of how good the teacher is) will be better than a fabulous teacher in a tougher area. And by that logic, the crappy teacher would be paid more. Its completely flawed and will drive the education system further in the toilet by making teachers be forced to go to more affluent areas to teach. The inner-city schools would crater and would be worse than what they are now.
    Last edited by Crow22; 12-13-2018 at 09:46 AM.

  3. #63

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    When picking a profession there are many things to consider. The most common are salary opportunities, work hours, and personal fulfillment. I understand advocating for higher pay but find it perplexing when someone picks a profession with low pay and then expresses outrage regarding that low pay. It's even more disturbing when someone attacks another profession's higher pay as a reason for their professions low pay.
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  4. #64
    All-American panfan's Avatar
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    A bit off topic but related and a likely unpopular opinion. Teachers who advocate for more pay are justified in doing so based on the jobs they perform relative to Coach/ADs.

    High paid coaches/ADs are administrators who manage their specialty sport and other sports and coaches under them - they put in a lot of work, and I do not think they should be paid any less. Key is that for most of them, they are managing players who want to be there. They also have recourse for those kids that are issues - extra conditioning, holding them out of games, eliminating them from the team, etc. Must deal with parents but for the most part, are the masters of their destiny when it comes to dealing with parents. I doubt any head coaches/ADs get called to the office and told "Johnny's mama called, and complained that he isn't getting enough playing time - you need to fix that".

    Teachers -must teach who is in their class, deal with the kids who don't want to be there, try to make sure they pass, have no discipline authority in the classroom except to write a referral, and must educate to the best of their ability kids who simply cannot do the work. They are held accountable through testing scores, more than just the state mandated test, and are double dinged for kids who are unable to do the work, and should be in special education classes separate from the bulk of the students simply because they cannot learn at the same pace or the level of the material. They put in extraordinary amounts of time grading papers, figure out new or different ways to convey the lesson for those who are not getting it, and preparing lessons to move those who are ahead without out holding them back to much. Dealing with parents is a nightmare - most often at the mercy of administrators who side with parents because they are worried about lawsuits or not ad hearing to 504 plans (welfare for most who are too lazy to do the work - some are legit though). Can't fail anyone because that looks bad and hurts the school rating even though little johnny hasn't done a thing all year or mamma complains often to admins that his/her 504 is not being followed.


    The standards for accountability, responsibility, and pay are very different and lopsided.
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  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow22 View Post
    I'm certainly not offended and I don't believe I'm attacking you for disagreeing with your position. Its your right to think and say whatever you want. I happen to know/think different because its been my profession for over 2 decades. I can tell you for certain that during a coaches "season" (especially football) that most will work upwards of 80-120 (or more) hours per week. My personal "average" during football would be 6:45am - 7:30pm (monday-wedns) and 6:45am to 10:30pm (thurs-friday).....then 8am-3pm (sat).....then 1pm-8pm (sun).

    I wish like hell I was on hourly instead of salary. Most teachers would agree.

    (edit) Regarding the New York Times article you posted, its clearly an advocacy for "incentive based" income for teachers. I would fight to my death to oppose that. Absolutely not. Never.....

    You can take the best teacher in the world and place them in an area of low-income families and their test scores are not going to be up to par when compared to an area of high-income families. In other words, take a crappy teacher and place them in an affluent area and his/her scores (regardless of how good the teacher is) will be better than a fabulous teacher in a tougher area. And by that logic, the crappy teacher would be paid more. Its completely flawed and will drive the education system further in the toilet by making teachers be forced to go to more affluent areas to teach. The inner-city schools would crater and would be worse than what they are now.
    Those are definitely tough hours during the season.

    I donít think anyone is suggesting that test scores are the grading mechanism used to determine salary. There are many better ways to gauge individual performance IMO

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saggy Aggie View Post
    Those are definitely tough hours during the season.

    I donít think anyone is suggesting that test scores are the grading mechanism used to determine salary. There are many better ways to gauge individual performance IMO
    Incentive based teacher salary proposals are 100% based upon test scores.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostaussie View Post
    OH MY JEEZ. I started trying to read through all this and just gave up.
    .....I'm late to this party....but how bout just a good ol' Cam limerick?......

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow22 View Post
    Incentive based teacher salary proposals are 100% based upon test scores.
    And I don't think that's a fair way to judge a teacher's performance at all. I'll spare the details of the reasons, but as teacher, I'm pretty sure you already know them. Honestly, I don't how you would base incentive pay that would be fair.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saggy Aggie View Post
    I know this is just one source.... but here’s an article that says some of the same things I’ve said... with real data...

    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...-many-teachers

    I am the only person on this thread who has posted anything that supports my claims. Debate is good when it’s more than just offended people attacking an opinionated person....
    People are not posting links because they are telling you their own real-world experience. Also what you posted there is something from 2012 and really provides no proof. It is an opinion piece that one of the links is expired.
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  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow22 View Post
    Incentive based teacher salary proposals are 100% based upon test scores.
    Yeah, and that shouldnít be the case

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Txbroadcaster View Post
    People are not posting links because they are telling you their own real-world experience. Also what you posted there is something from 2012 and really provides no proof. It is an opinion piece that one of the links is expired.
    Right, and I have real world experience when it comes to college and changing majors. That isnít the only link I posted either....

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saggy Aggie View Post
    Right, and I have real world experience when it comes to college and changing majors. That isnít the only link I posted either....
    some simple facts I will post

    1. Teachers are underpaid
    2. coaches are underpaid
    3. generation x parents/liberals/ snowflakes/ helicopter parents, etc are the driving force behind good teachers leaving. Teachers/administrators arent allowed to discipline students anymore and schools are turning into zoo's. Even more of a reason they are underpaid, having to put up with so much BS instead of being allowed to discipline children and teaching them.


    and SAGGY in one of your post you made a comment about responsibilities of teachers compared to other jobs and you said teachers dont have to worry about being directly related to the safety of other people???? After reading that I ignored all of your other posts. Absolutely ludicrous of a statement to make.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by duckhunter View Post
    some simple facts I will post

    1. Teachers are underpaid
    2. coaches are underpaid
    3. generation x parents/liberals/ snowflakes/ helicopter parents, etc are the driving force behind good teachers leaving. Teachers/administrators arent allowed to discipline students anymore and schools are turning into zoo's. Even more of a reason they are underpaid, having to put up with so much BS instead of being allowed to discipline children and teaching them.


    and SAGGY in one of your post you made a comment about responsibilities of teachers compared to other jobs and you said teachers dont have to worry about being directly related to the safety of other people???? After reading that I ignored all of your other posts. Absolutely ludicrous of a statement to make.
    Agreed to an extent on your first couple points.

    I donít think you understood what I meant..... classrooms are controlled environments... Iím not talking about a kid scraping his knee or breaking his arm on a jungle gym...

    I meant those situations where there is DIRECT exposure to REAL risk (airline pilots, for example). When is the last time a teachers screwup caused a kid to die...?

    You guys are missing the points completely.

  14. #74
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    I'm kinda late to this thread, but like the exchange. I tend to agree with some of what Saggy is saying. I personally think teachers are underpaid, but not grossly. I actually think the salaries for Football coaches are ridiculous, and I have coaches in my family and played sports in HS and College, so I'm no liberal snowflake. When schools are cutting, not only arts programs, but also core curriculum because they don't have the funds, that means our priorities are out of whack. tens of millions on stadiums and $125k+ coaching salaries are indefensible. Sorry, that's a fact.

    And I know that teachers put in lots of hours, but that is a moot point really because, as Saggy points out, lots of folks put in long hours. And the time off thing is a real issue, IMO. I've given back ove r100 hours of PTO each of the last years to my company because I wasn't able to take it so I lost it. To say that you ONLY get 4 weeks off in the summer strikes me as a bit out of touch. I don't get 4 weeks in the summer. I don't get 2 weeks at Christmas and a week in the spring.

    Again, I'm not attacking teachers, but I do have some family and friends that are teachers and they do sometimes come across as tone deaf when they post about how excited they are for their break or can't wait etc. Meanwhile, the rest of us get our ass up and go to work again.
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  15. #75
    All-American Macarthur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckhunter View Post
    some simple facts I will post

    1. Teachers are underpaid
    2. coaches are underpaid
    3. generation x parents/liberals/ snowflakes/ helicopter parents, etc are the driving force behind good teachers leaving. Teachers/administrators arent allowed to discipline students anymore and schools are turning into zoo's. Even more of a reason they are underpaid, having to put up with so much BS instead of being allowed to discipline children and teaching them.


    and SAGGY in one of your post you made a comment about responsibilities of teachers compared to other jobs and you said teachers dont have to worry about being directly related to the safety of other people???? After reading that I ignored all of your other posts. Absolutely ludicrous of a statement to make.

    I also want to address this. My kids go to a very affluent school in San Antonio that is similar to Saggy in Katy - very high achieving with a high level of parent participation. While I tend to agree that discipline is problematic these days, I will also say that over the course of my kids school years (one in college and my last one in middle), I have run into some teachers that are complete idiots. It's amazing to me they were able to graduate from college. Now, that is a small minority, but make no mistake, there are issues on both sides - the parent and school.
    Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers.

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