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  1. #1
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    Default Better 5 Year Run? Carthage or West Orange-Stark

    I ran across the 2014 4a DII state championship game today. WOS, with a sophomore QB, gave one of the all-time great 4a teams all they wanted that day. Change a few key plays and that game goes the other way.

    Got me to thinking who has been better over the last 5 years. Mustangs or Dawgs? After looking at both teams run, it comes down to how much weight a state championship holds. Carthage had 3. WOS had 2. WOS leads in every other category.

    Carthage is 61-13 over the last 5 years. WOS is 68-7. Carthage made 3 state championship appearances. WOS made 4. Carthage won 26 games in a row. WOS won 40. Carthage had an all-time great 4a (3a) offense in 2017. WOS had an all-time great 4a (3a) defense in 2016.

    I’m a homer, but I gotta give it to the Mustangs. I hate to do it, but damn.

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    And Argyle has had a hell of a run the last 5 years. But with only 1 title, I put the other 2 just a little bit ahead of them. That’s the reason I didn’t mention them. They have had everything else.

  3. #3
    All-American Tejastrue's Avatar
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    West Orange Stark!
    The measure of who we are is what we do with what we have..... Vince Lombardi

  4. #4

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    How can you not include the last 10 years when talking Carthage Football?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldtownag View Post
    How can you not include the last 10 years when talking Carthage Football?
    Well you could, but then there would be no comparison. 5 years is very recent, and I had a program that compares really well for the purpose of a debate. But the site is pretty dead at this time of the year anyway. It was just for fun.

    If we are comparing the last 10 years you have to basically compare Carthage to a couple other programs outside of 4a, and from all over the state. This is a historic last 10 years. If Surratt stays he has a chance at a bunch of records. Especially playoff records and championships. I mean at this pace would it be unrealistic for him to finish with 10 state titles? I don’t think so. Hell with what Carthage has coming up I can see 2 more in the next 3 years. If kids keep developing your looking at a 2017 type team next year in 2019.

  6. #6

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    Personally, id rather go 3/3 in title games than 2/4 with a couple extra wins along the way.

    Regardless, both have been ridiculous...

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    This is a great conversation. Both have been on another level these past five years, for sure. You could argue they've been the only two TRULY elite programs in 4A for the past five years. Although, it'd be hard for me to leave Argyle out of that conversation, especially since they played for a title in 2013-15 and have been in the conversation every year since then as well. And, like you said for WOS, you look at a play here or there going the Eagles' way, and we're talking about a 3-peat for them instead of just one ring. And, hell, while we're at it, you could say if Celina's QB doesn't break his arm on the first series of the 2015 Div. II game, WOS might only have one ring in the past five years. If we stretched it back 10 years, there's no one close to Carthage, in my opinion. And the only comparison you could make to that would be Celina from about 1995-2008, with that last year being when the torch was sort of passed over to the Dawgs ... or when Dwight Smith single-handedly took it.


    Obviously, none of that matters, though. Just fun discussion. Coming back around to Dawgs' original question, though, I think I'd take Carthage's five-year run over WOS's, simply for the rings aspect. But, I don't think any Mustangs fans would trade what they've had these past few years. It's been great to see them having so much success. For so many years, it seemed like they were just always on the cusp, deserving to be in the conversation, just never able to get over the hump. But, like Carthage, they've been living on the top for an extended period now.


    Great topic, Dawgs!
    Texas Forever.

  8. #8
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    Dawg, have you seen or read about the newest D1 player for the Dawgs.
    He is rated by 247 sports as the number 70 th best in Texas. He will be a junior at 6ft 5in and 315 pounds. He committed to Baylor after Sunday’s camp at Baylor.
    Great article on him.
    Add him to the three starters coming back bigger, stronger, and seasoned players, the Dawg Oline is going to bad to the bone.
    Can’t wait to see the big Dawgs mash on the defense’s they face.
    Let’s Go Dawgs!!!!
    God Bless coaches, players, and fans.

  9. #9
    Administrator WOS87's Avatar
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    WO-S will hit their 400th win all-time this season... 42nd season ever (1977-2018)

    Carthage hit win 400 in 1996... 73rd season ever (1924-1996)

    Only team I can find to hit 400 quicker was Permian who did it in their 41st season (1959-1999)

    Go backwards 20, 30 or 40 years from 2017 and WO-S still wins by far


    Last 10 years

    WO-S 117-19 86.0%
    Carthage 125-24 83.9%

    Yeah you have the titles over the past 10 years but that's pretty much the only stat you win at over that small window of a time period.

    ...and if you're gonna play the woulda coulda shoulda game dotcom, WOS could just as easily have won 4 straight with a correct call in the Gilmer game and a completed pass rather than an interception in the PG game.
    424-100-3 (80.74% win percentage) Highest winning percentage in the state

    9 straight Region III Finals '11-'19
    56 consecutive district game wins '09-'20 (88-1 in district since 2003)
    37 consecutive non-losing seasons '84-'20

    4 Championships - 1986, 1987, 2015, 2016
    8 State Finals - 1986, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
    9 Semifinals - 1986, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2005, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017
    14 Quarterfinals - 1986, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2005, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019
    31 Playoff Appearances

  10. #10
    Last edited by oldtownag; 08-02-2018 at 08:55 AM.
    Carthage Bulldogs

    2008, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020, 2022

    9 X State Football Champs


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by WOS87 View Post
    WO-S will hit their 400th win all-time this season... 42nd season ever (1977-2018)

    Carthage hit win 400 in 1996... 73rd season ever (1924-1996)

    Only team I can find to hit 400 quicker was Permian who did it in their 41st season (1959-1999)

    Go backwards 20, 30 or 40 years from 2017 and WO-S still wins by far


    Last 10 years

    WO-S 117-19 86.0%
    Carthage 125-24 83.9%

    Yeah you have the titles over the past 10 years but that's pretty much the only stat you win at over that small window of a time period.

    ...and if you're gonna play the woulda coulda shoulda game dotcom, WOS could just as easily have won 4 straight with a correct call in the Gilmer game and a completed pass rather than an interception in the PG game.
    You see I tried to give another program props. I had to do only 5 year window, and I have all the stats. I even gave the nod to WOS. And then somebody pulles out the ol’ win percentage and total wins.

    Carthage is 6-6 in title games last 10 years. 6 for 7 overall. There is no comparison in 4a since 2008.

    You put up a stat over 10 years that showed Carthage winning more games at a 2% less winning percentage. Hahaha. Carthage has won more games, won more titles, won more regional titles, played in more title games, and even beat WOS head to head. There is not a stat you could possibly show me that would make me think WOS has had a more successful 10 year run.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldtownag View Post
    Man I forgot WOS ran the ball 23 times for 38 yards. There is a stat for WOS87, lol. Carthage ran it 46 times for 244 yards.

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    To be honest WOS had to drop down to do what they did. No way if they play with us in R3 would they have had this run. It’s not a coincidence that WOS didn’t make a title game for 15 years, and then made 4 straight. R3 in 4a D2 is unbelievably weak. There is no team that compares to WOS.

    Carthage will be down there next alignment. Give you guys some competition.

  14. #14
    2013, 2015, 2016 3ADL FF Champ jason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawgs View Post
    You see I tried to give another program props. I had to do only 5 year window, and I have all the stats. I even gave the nod to WOS. And then somebody pulles out the ol’ win percentage and total wins.

    Carthage is 6-6 in title games last 10 years. 6 for 7 overall. There is no comparison in 4a since 2008.

    You put up a stat over 10 years that showed Carthage winning more games at a 2% less winning percentage. Hahaha. Carthage has won more games, won more titles, won more regional titles, played in more title games, and even beat WOS head to head. There is not a stat you could possibly show me that would make me think WOS has had a more successful 10 year run.
    Would be interesting to see the records of the teams they beat - region 2 vs region 4 has to play into the quality of win %....

  15. #15
    Moderator Txbroadcaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WOS87 View Post

    Yeah you have the titles over the past 10 years but that's pretty much the only stat you win at over that small window of a time period.
    Ehh kinda the biggest stat in the discussion LOL.
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