No pass, no Play---Do U Have the Grades?

[Buffgal]

Overheard a conversation Friday night.....player failed and parent was ripping the teacher and the coach who tutored player. In parents opinion, teacher and coach should be disciplined, just like the player, as parent felt that teacher and coach had not satisfactorily done their job thus allowing player to fail.

Hard for me to listen as I obviously have a different opinion and my own personal parenting "no pass no play" grade is a 80 not a 70.

Curious as to what others on 3adl think as I feel it is a worthy topic to discuss.

Also, Does your school/athletic program have a coach who is "assigned" to tutor the players who have suspect grades?

[OldBison75]

Position coaches monitor player grades and the players are assigned to tutors if needed. The coaches monitor the players attendance to the tutoring but I only know of one or two that actually do tutoring themselves.

The student is responsible for his own grade and the teacher or coach can only try to give them the best help possible. It's time the parents and students put the blame where it lies--on the student that won't put out the effort and the parents that don't care what the kid learns until they are in academic trouble.

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by Buffgal
Overheard a conversation Friday night.....player failed and parent was ripping the teacher and the coach who tutored player. In parents opinion, teacher and coach should be disciplined, just like the player, as parent felt that teacher and coach had not satisfactorily done their job thus allowing player to fail.

Hard for me to listen as I obviously have a different opinion and my own personal parenting "no pass no play" grade is a 80 not a 70.

Curious as to what others on 3adl think as I feel it is a worthy topic to discuss.

Also, Does your school/athletic program have a coach who is "assigned" to tutor the players who have suspect grades?

There's ample evidence that kids who stay engaged in sports get into less trouble than those not so engaged. I think it is counter productive to hold a kid out who fails to attain an "80". That could back fire on the parent. I have no problem with the 70 limit though as kids need to know that certain minimal standards of performance are required of them.

[OldBison75]

Well, I believe that as a parent, a standard minimum grade level of 80 was set and the child/player knows this. I applaud a parent that expects more of thier child academically and offers the reward of participating for reaching that minimum standard. Odds are good that a child that knows the rules and knows that they will be enforced fairly and consistently will be more likely to conform to the rules, or at least put out the effort to reach the standard.

Yes, sports can be a real motivator for some kids, but many use sports as a free ticket to do as little academically as possible. The reality is that 99 percent of the high school athletes will not even go to college, much less play college sports, so they better learn something in the classroom. Teaching self-discipline and setting goals or standards in the classroom, home, and on the field of play are the best combination.

[turbostud]

Originally posted by Buffgal

Also, Does your school/athletic program have a coach who is "assigned" to tutor the players who have suspect grades?

One thing that I know that happens is that coaches are given teaching jobs that they are not certified to teach. The district hires a coach to teach Spanish and be a coach at the same time even though the coach isnt certified to teach Spanish. Basically the district saves money by hiring one person to cover two positions. This happens where I live.

[44INAROW]

Originally posted by Buffgal
Overheard a conversation Friday night.....player failed and parent was ripping the teacher and the coach who tutored player.

sounds like a parent who lives by the motto " it's always someone else's fault"

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by 44INAROW
sounds like a parent who lives by the motto " it's always someone else's fault" Yep, those parents bum me out. I mean, REALLY...teach your kids some accountability/responsibility.

ugh

These are the same parents that will try to "fix" everything for their kids and then once those kids are left to fend for themselves (going off to college) will FAIL miserably! Not saying it always happens that way, but I've seen it way too often.

I need to just shut up now :D

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by OldBison75
Well, I believe that as a parent, a standard minimum grade level of 80 was set and the child/player knows this. I applaud a parent that expects more of thier child academically and offers the reward of participating for reaching that minimum standard. Odds are good that a child that knows the rules and knows that they will be enforced fairly and consistently will be more likely to conform to the rules, or at least put out the effort to reach the standard.

Yes, sports can be a real motivator for some kids, but many use sports as a free ticket to do as little academically as possible. The reality is that 99 percent of the high school athletes will not even go to college, much less play college sports, so they better learn something in the classroom. Teaching self-discipline and setting goals or standards in the classroom, home, and on the field of play are the best combination.

Well I certainly agree that parents need to set high standards. What I disagree on is to place counter productive punitive consequences on a kid. Rather than pull a kid out of sports for not meeting a higher standard like an 80 there are any number of more appropriate consequences that don't harm others (the team and the community). Sports are team efforts and a parent who pulls a kid out for getting a 79 is not a "team player" in my mind. Why not take away car privileges , tv or X Box or whatever. Why ruin the kid's chances in sports which are a positive element of character development? It is counter productive and frankly, in regards to being a team player, rather selfish. Make the kid stay home and study on the week ends and wash the car and clean out the garage for Pete's sake.

I knew a parent who had this approach to disciplining his son. His son was a good football player on the jv. He got into a little bit of trouble, broke some curfew rules or such. His Dad took away his permission to play football. The boy got into more trouble, dropped out of school and pretty much messed up his life. The judicious use of leverage is all a parent has to control a kid nowadays. By swatting a fly with a shovel you can do more harm than good.
:rolleyes:

[OldBison75]

And, by showing a kid that you don't expect much from him or her, you tell them that it is okay to be medicore. No matter what the rules are, or how they are applied, some kids are going to be rebels. My middle son was told that until he improved his grades to above 80 he would not get his driving permit. This created a hardship for me and his mother to get him where he wanted and deeded to be for school and work. However, after two six week grading periods, he improved his grades and got the reward of the permit. After getting the permit, he dropped below the 80 mark again and he was not allowed to get his regular license when he turned 16. It took two more six weeks grading periods for him to get back to the 80, but he did and got his license. After that he knew what the rule meant and he maintained A's and B's through the rest of High School. He turned out pretty good. If he had tried to rebel in other ways, he would have other punishments and he knew that. If something beyond his control affected his grades, compromises were made, like when he had to miss a week of school because of illness, he was given his homework assignments each day and worked on them at home. Knowing that what he missed in the classroom affected his ability to do the homework, he was given a break on the grade for that six weeks to a 75 minimum instead of 80.

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by OldBison75
And, by showing a kid that you don't expect much from him or her, you tell them that it is okay to be medicore. No matter what the rules are, or how they are applied, some kids are going to be rebels. My middle son was told that until he improved his grades to above 80 he would not get his driving permit. This created a hardship for me and his mother to get him where he wanted and deeded to be for school and work. However, after two six week grading periods, he improved his grades and got the reward of the permit. After getting the permit, he dropped below the 80 mark again and he was not allowed to get his regular license when he turned 16. It took two more six weeks grading periods for him to get back to the 80, but he did and got his license. After that he knew what the rule meant and he maintained A's and B's through the rest of High School. He turned out pretty good. If he had tried to rebel in other ways, he would have other punishments and he knew that. If something beyond his control affected his grades, compromises were made, like when he had to miss a week of school because of illness, he was given his homework assignments each day and worked on them at home. Knowing that what he missed in the classroom affected his ability to do the homework, he was given a break on the grade for that six weeks to a 75 minimum instead of 80.

I couldn't agree more with this. Certainly a good parent will hold his/her children to the highest standard. I see that you choice of consequences really fit the situation well. Taking your son out of extracurricular activities would have been counter productive. Nowadays good colleges look for a record of extracurricular activities in their admission criteria. So instead of pulling a child out of sports make him/her volunteer at the local animal shelter cleaning out dog pens for a week or two. Good for the soul and looks good on the resume for colleges. That is my point. Use the leverage wisely and hold your child to the highest standard in a productive way.

[Buffgal]

From the posts, I obviously didn't explain my point about the grades satisfactorily.

The point about my own parenting agenda being the 80 grade or above. I don't pull him out of the sport just all the other extracurricular things (xbox, car, girls, hunting....) Those extra things that he is choosing to do instead of studying. My own personal standard, one that I know my kid is capable of doing. I also have maintained that I will never predict what my child is going to do, I will only promise what I will do when my child makes a wrong choice.

Anyway,

Point of my post (after overhearing this parent conversation who was obviously placing the blame on the tutoring coach and the teacher..................not the athlete.

Do other schools hold the coach who is tutoring accountable for the students failure to make a passing grade? And FYI in this instance, the coach does not teach the subject in which the athlete failed.

Do other schools hold the teacher accountable for the grade failure of an athlete or any student for that matter?

Are athletes being told the coach's job is in jeopardy if :

A. Athlete does not perform in the sport?
B. Athlete does not perform in the classroom?

[STANG RED]

I see the need and value in a no pass no play rule, when it is administered the right way. The problem with these cookie cutter fixes is, they only address the cookie cutter problems their designed for, and don’t allow the flexibility that is needed to address more complex problems. For the average teenager that is just lazy and wants to get by with as little effort as possible, but has the ability to do much better, the no pass no play can be a great motivator, and can work very well. However there are many kids out there with much bigger problems than simply being lazy. Those that come from horrendous home lives and no positive parental support, often fall through the crakes of these rigid cookie cutter rules, and often the harm done is greater than the good that was intended. If you take away the one positive aspect of a child’s life because of an inflexible rule, what good have you done for that child? You may in fact have only managed to add to the future prison overpopulation. Administration of any rule, is the secret to it's success. And often these cookie cutter rules are administered very poorly, and occasionally downright abused. They arent the fixall that some seem to think they are.

[957tiger]

There are jobs that offer incentives to work harder, or produce more and it is up to the employee to do just that. Or the employee can do just enough to get by and get a paycheck. If a teacher only can focus on the 10% who will pass no matter what the subject and be content, what about the remaining 90% who might struggle at some point. I applaud those "smart" students who suceed with little effort. My thoughts are about the student who has to read and re-read every line, or have it explained like a third grader just for it to make sense. Take a look a your honor students and see that they make up a very small percentage of the class. A student should never be allowed to fail. Remember if it's a 70 or a 90 both are relative to the students ability to learn and retain information.

[fanofthegame]

Hey Gal, what's your point of view? would you think it was the coach's fault that johnny (just a name) didn't pass? let's take the coach's job first, he can only teach and coach johnny on the field on what to do, now if johnny misses a block or doesn't make a tackle, is it the coach's fault. give me a break, johnny has to step up and do his job. now for the classroom, the coach is taken time from his/her lunch, before school or after to help. the teacher is doing the same, now is it their fault that johnny didn't pass. come on gal, who would you hold in fault here. sounds like you don't want coaches helping out players. just my point of view, and i know everyone has one......

[GreenMonster]

Originally posted by turbostud
One thing that I know that happens is that coaches are given teaching jobs that they are not certified to teach. The district hires a coach to teach Spanish and be a coach at the same time even though the coach isnt certified to teach Spanish. Basically the district saves money by hiring one person to cover two positions. This happens where I live. I'd do my homework before throwing out nasty little accusations like that one. Teachers CANNOT teach outside of their subject area by state law. If a teacher teaches 3 different subjects, then that teacher is supposed to have a certificate for each subject. Schools are also required to provide proof of this certification to the state.

[STANG RED]

Here is somthing to ponder on for ya.
Our school systems have had "no pass no play" and "Zero Tollerence" policies for what now, 10-20 or so years? However long it is, it is plenty of time to study and asses there affects. Are our schools and students any better since these policies have been put in place? Sorry, but I see no evidence it.

[turbostud]

Originally posted by GreenMonster
I'd do my homework before throwing out nasty little accusations like that one. Teachers CANNOT teach outside of their subject area by state law. If a teacher teaches 3 different subjects, then that teacher is supposed to have a certificate for each subject. Schools are also required to provide proof of this certification to the state.

Trust me, I did my homework.

[Buffgal]

Originally posted by fanofthegame
Hey Gal, what's your point of view? would you think it was the coach's fault that johnny (just a name) didn't pass? let's take the coach's job first, he can only teach and coach johnny on the field on what to do, now if johnny misses a block or doesn't make a tackle, is it the coach's fault. give me a break, johnny has to step up and do his job. now for the classroom, the coach is taken time from his/her lunch, before school or after to help. the teacher is doing the same, now is it their fault that johnny didn't pass. come on gal, who would you hold in fault here. sounds like you don't want coaches helping out players. just my point of view, and i know everyone has one......

I will assume that "hey Gal" is addressed to me. personally, don't have a problem with teachers or coaches helping out players. My question was whether other schools assign coaches to tutor individual players regardless if they are qualified for that subject (re: certified Geography teacher/coach tutoring for Math) and then coach tutor being held responsible for Johnny not passing the math.

Classroom: I personally feel that if Johnny doesn't pass, it is on Johnny, not the teacher or the tutor.
Have had two kids go through school and they have been taught by superior teachers and inferior teachers but IMO it is their responsibility to pass the class and theirs alone. Most school districts have excellent re-testing procedures, tutoring etc. No excuses IMO for letting your athletic participation hinge on a last minute test right before grades come out.

As far as coaching goes, I feel that a coach can only do a superior job if he has the personnel to work with (in regard to IQ and athletic ability). Athletes can be taught the proper way to achieve success on the athletic field or in the classroom but it is up to the athlete to perform. I don't think athletes should be told that their performance on the field/court/classroom is directly related to a coach/teacher losing his job. For example, if you don't start getting this play, making this block, not striking out, whatever.....then your coach is going to lose his job. IMO that is a poor way to motivate a kid.

[wimbo_pro]

It's up to the parents to make sure the kids are committed to making the grades.

Unless, of course, you agree with some of the other comments on the other threads about commitment and that maybe we should allow the kids to decide on whether or not they should commit to making good grades.

[Emerson1]

If you fail in high school then you should just kill yourself because you have no chance in life anyways.

[88bobcats]

I think each school district should be able to establish its own policies. If a coach was hired to do a job that included the responsibility for tutoring, and that coach agreed to that clause of employment, then that coach should be reprimanded for failures.

Do not interpret this as me thinking that the coach has more responsibility than the player or the player's parents. I ultimately fault the kid and the kid's parents. I have a lazy 17-year-old football player that basically only does the minimum he has to do......that's teenagers for you. He does, however, understand, that I'll yank him out of athletics, or FFA for that matter, if he doesn't keep his grades up.

Our priorities are:

(1) Church
(2) School
(3) Athletics
(4) FFA
(5) social time

Sports/Athletics and FFA are privileges for him. He gets to participate in them if he takes care of his Church and School responsibilities.

Even though ultimate responsibility is on the kid and the kid's parents, there must be a system of checks-and-balances on the coaches and teachers that knowingly accept the task of tutoring. If it's simply thrust on them and wasn't a term of their employment, then the school and/or district has no grounds to hold them responsible for the kid(s) failing.


On a side note: I think the parent that was overheard chastising the teacher and coach for his kid's failure should have received a swift "attitude adjustment".

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
It's up to the parents to make sure the kids are committed to making the grades.

Unless, of course, you agree with some of the other comments on the other threads about commitment and that maybe we should allow the kids to decide on whether or not they should commit to making good grades.


:stirpot:
Ha-Ha! I love it!

Nicely done, wimbo_pro

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by Buffgal
Overheard a conversation Friday night.....player failed and parent was ripping the teacher and the coach who tutored player. In parents opinion, teacher and coach should be disciplined, just like the player, as parent felt that teacher and coach had not satisfactorily done their job thus allowing player to fail.

Hard for me to listen as I obviously have a different opinion and my own personal parenting "no pass no play" grade is a 80 not a 70.

Curious as to what others on 3adl think as I feel it is a worthy topic to discuss.

Also, Does your school/athletic program have a coach who is "assigned" to tutor the players who have suspect grades?


didn't read the entire thread....but the heck did parents do to help......typical.......blame someone else.

[turbostud]

Originally posted by Emerson1
If you fail in high school then you should just kill yourself because you have no chance in life anyways.

I agree.

[RedWhiteBlue]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
It's up to the parents to make sure the kids are committed to making the grades.

Unless, of course, you agree with some of the other comments on the other threads about commitment and that maybe we should allow the kids to decide on whether or not they should commit to making good grades.

Exactly!! AGAIN...:D

[Pick6]

Originally posted by Emerson1
If you fail in high school then you should just kill yourself because you have no chance in life anyways.

That's a dumb statement. I know someone who lives in New Orleans who was dirt poor and uneducated growing up. He got a job in the oil field, invented some type of safety valve and has mega millions now. Seems like him failing out of school didn't hurt him.

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Pick6
That's a dumb statement. Consider the source. ;)

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by Pick6
That's a dumb statement. I know someone who lives in New Orleans who was dirt poor and uneducated growing up. He got a job in the oil field, invented some type of safety valve and has mega millions now. Seems like him failing out of school didn't hurt him.

Obviously he was joking. But using an example of someone who has done well without a high school education is similar to saying smoking isnt bad for you by using an example of a smoker who lived to 100 yrs old. It happens, but don't count on it.

[LH Panther Mom]

We have mandatory tutoring here, before school, with the teacher who actually TEACHES the class. It's been my experience (and I grew up with teacher parents!) that most teachers will do whatever they can to help the student understand the subject. It is on the STUDENT to get the help he needs, and parents to see that they do. And yes, there are many parents that honestly don't give a crap about the childs' EDUCATION. BOOOOOO on them!

If the student wants to participate in whatever extracurricular activity - football, band or tiddly-winks - he/she needs to let the teacher know they don't "get it", in the classroom, in tutorials, or the teachers' conference period, or find someone else that can help them understand the material. My youngest son has a friend that struggles with Math - he asked Adam if he could come over and help him two weeks in a row last six weeks. He was in danger of failing and needed to understand the homework so that he could pass the tests both weeks. :thumbsup: I was proud of my son for tutoring his friend, but even more proud of the friend for asking for the extra help.

[Tiger Turtle]

My wife was the head of the math department at a 3A school for 25 years and she tutored anybody and everybody in the district including the football team when they needed it. Our former HC was a certified math teacher and he tutored the players most of the time until he got overloaded or they got to calculus which he wasn't comfortable with and my wife took over. Some of the assistant coaches also tutored players in other subjects. Those kids who needed help in classes where we didn't have a coach who was certified usually just went to the regular tutoring session held by their teachers. Players were excused from practice to go to tutoring when schedules conflicted. The necessary help is available if the kid makes the effort to learn.

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom


If the student wants to participate in whatever extracurricular activity - football, band or tiddly-winks - he/she needs to let the teacher know they don't "get it", in the classroom, in tutorials, or the teachers' conference period, or find someone else that can help them understand the material.


I lettered in tiddly-winks all four years; and I was the back-to-back tiddly-wink state champion in '87 & '88.

I bet y'all didn't even know that it was a spring event so it wouldn't conflict with football.

[FbCoachB40]

Let's get to the real point buffgal. Was the failing athlete a starter or a back-up? Sometimes that makes all the difference