What is going on in Sweetwater (Merged)

[ccraker]

Pretty strange stuff. There is an updated story that is much longer, but I can't find a link:

http://www.oaoa.com/articles/sweetwater-37486-football-texas.html

[Sweetwater Red]

Okay now I am pissed!

If a newspaper as far west as Odessa can cover the non-news in Sweetwater, then why can't
Lubbock, Austin, and DFW? :mad:

[DU_stud04]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
Okay now I am pissed!

If a newspaper as far west as Odessa can cover the non-news in Sweetwater, then why can't
Lubbock, Austin, and DFW? :mad: ive seen it in houston news papers.

[ccraker]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
Okay now I am pissed!

If a newspaper as far west as Odessa can cover the non-news in Sweetwater, then why can't
Lubbock, Austin, and DFW? :mad:

I'm confused. What do you mean?

Oh, and the Associated Press wrote the story, not us.

I didn't know about it until I was scrolling the wire today.

[garciap77]

I read the same information last week on the Abilene Report News!:(

[ccraker]

Originally posted by garciap77
I read the same information last week on the Abilene Report News!:(

You are correct.

Abilene did have a story on this last week:

http://www.reporternews.com/news/2009/sep/17/alleged-beatings-under-scrutiny/

[Scholar]

Non-news? What's that supposed to mean? Does it have to get this bad before it becomes news? Don't make light of a serious situation, Red. Hopefully someone over there will take this seriously; however, even that would be a big deviation from the past.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/30/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5353841.shtml

[markp08]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
Okay now I am pissed!

If a newspaper as far west as Odessa can cover the non-news in Sweetwater, then why can't
Lubbock, Austin, and DFW? :mad:

How is this a "Non news" story? If true, I think it very much is a news story. Are you saying it's not true?

[Mustangpride09]

Decided not to get in it.

[SWMustang]

Looks like they're doing more hitting at the softball field than at the bowl.

[thelegend02]

wow

[ccmom]

I believe this was brought up on this board a couple of weeks ago. Also, the SISD supt was on the Abilene news a couple weeks ago and did appear to be taking it seriously IMO.

[nobogey72]

There was an article in the Abilene Reporter News this morning about it.

[lakers]

The story was actually in our university newspaper on our campus here at Tech under the A/P section today.

[BuckeyeNut]

http://www.news-journal.com/search/content/gen/ap/FBH_Football_Gang_Probe.html

[Move The Chains]

Again? C'mon man. The original is like maybe 5 threads down on the first page.

[BuckeyeNut]

Originally posted by Move The Chains
Again? C'mon man. The original is like maybe 5 threads down on the first page.

Mine is better

[Looking4number8]

Originally posted by Black Flag
Mine is better

yea, because your artical says he is a 6'2", 300 lb linebacker... Thats a big ole linebacker

[PPSTATEBOUND]

Originally posted by Black Flag
http://www.news-journal.com/search/content/gen/ap/FBH_Football_Gang_Probe.html


0-5..nice work guys.....jeeeez.

[ccmom]

How many threads do we need about this??:confused:

[BuckeyeNut]

Originally posted by ccmom
How many threads do we need about this??:confused:

ok i well say it

SORRY I DID NOT SEE THE OTHER AND DIDI NOT LOOK BEFORE I POSTED

but mine is better :D :D

[RedWhiteBlue]

I agree with cc!! Enough already about Sweetwater- their season and any of their other issues!! Give them a rest....:doh:

[STANG RED]

I hope and think most people are smart enough to not let these few punk ass gang wantabees define their perception of an entire town. Believe me, we are much more disgusted about this than any of you. I've known about these punks for a while now, and have known it was just a matter of time before they screwed up bad enough to be seriously delt with. Now that they have, maybe we can finally get them sent up to where they belong, and away from the many good and decent kids we have in this town. Now lets move on and let the justice system run its course in dealing with these punks.

[Phantom Stang]

From the article Black Flag posted:

However, Ann Reed, Nolan County district attorney, said the case likely would be prosecuted by the county attorney who handles juvenile and misdemeanor cases. "I have not seen an offense report, but the information I have (about the case) does not have the elements of a felony", she said.
It seems to me that "I have not seen an offense report" is the last thing a District Attorney would want to tell an AP reporter in a case like this.:thinking: :doh:

[Phantom Stang]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
Okay now I am pissed!

If a newspaper as far west as Odessa can cover the non-news in Sweetwater, then why can't
Lubbock, Austin, and DFW? :mad:
Here ya go!:D
DFW (http://www.star-telegram.com/448/story/1647647.html)

Austin (http://www.statesman.com/search/content/gen/ap/FBH_Football_Gang_Probe.html)

Lubbock (http://www.lubbockonline.com/stories/100109/sta_499467720.shtml)

[ccmom]

Ok...I have to share my thoughts on this matter. On other sites, Slaughter and the SISD have been criticized for not kicking the boys off the team already.
How is Coach Slaughter supposed to punish these players if charges haven't even been brought? If charges are filed, then of course he will suspend them from the team and the SISD will take whatever steps are within there power, as well. Until that happens, is he supposed to suspend them on the basis of rumors? Let's say that he had already suspended the players and then the investigation never leads to charges...then the SISD would be faced with discrimination charges and who knows what else. This has all been going on for months. What is the hold up? File the charges already so that the SISD can proceed with their part of the punishment. Also, to think that Slaughter wants to overlook this is ridiculous. What are these boys doing for him? Not winning...not shedding a good light on the program in his first year as head coach. I do believe these boys should be punished...but its not as simple as "kick em off the team" at this point. In my opinion, this investigation should be expedited for the benefit of all parties involved, including the victim(s). The people of Sweetwater should be putting heat on Jim Kelly and company to get the show on the road. Sweetwater is a great town with strong values and rich tradition, but if this is not handled properly their reputation could be tarnished for years to come.

I believe Slaughter has already demonstrated that discipline is a priority for him and his coaching staff. One example of that was recently posted on this board. Nobody wants this matter resolved more than he and the SISD administration.

Ok....even if nobody reads this, I feel better now.
:)

[GetRDoneStangs]

Thanks ccmom......lrt's let the courts make their decision and let SISD go from there.

If they prosecute...they need to be gone....that is not an issue anywhere in Sweetwater.

I feel for Coach Slaughter for what is going on.....he will stand strong as will the Mustangs!!!

[SHSBulldog00]

It's not good news for Sweetwater but other school's deal with it too.

[RedWhiteBlue]

Originally posted by ccmom
Ok...I have to share my thoughts on this matter. On other sites, Slaughter and the SISD have been criticized for not kicking the boys off the team already.
How is Coach Slaughter supposed to punish these players if charges haven't even been brought? If charges are filed, then of course he will suspend them from the team and the SISD will take whatever steps are within there power, as well. Until that happens, is he supposed to suspend them on the basis of rumors? Let's say that he had already suspended the players and then the investigation never leads to charges...then the SISD would be faced with discrimination charges and who knows what else. This has all been going on for months. What is the hold up? File the charges already so that the SISD can proceed with their part of the punishment. Also, to think that Slaughter wants to overlook this is ridiculous. What are these boys doing for him? Not winning...not shedding a good light on the program in his first year as head coach. I do believe these boys should be punished...but its not as simple as "kick em off the team" at this point. In my opinion, this investigation should be expedited for the benefit of all parties involved, including the victim(s). The people of Sweetwater should be putting heat on Jim Kelly and company to get the show on the road. Sweetwater is a great town with strong values and rich tradition, but if this is not handled properly their reputation could be tarnished for years to come.

I believe Slaughter has already demonstrated that discipline is a priority for him and his coaching staff. One example of that was recently posted on this board. Nobody wants this matter resolved more than he and the SISD administration.

Ok....even if nobody reads this, I feel better now.
:)
I read it, cc. And for what I know- which isn't much, you did an awesome job summing it up!!! You are absolutely correct. SISD and Coach Slaughter's hands are tied at this point until formal charges are made against these young men- whether they are considered juvenile or adult.
I can tell you from experience, (about 14 years to be exact in working in around this type of thing) that this type of issue will bring out the best and worst in people. And unfortunately, Coach Slaughter and SISD cannot please everyone. A great deal of people do not know the first thing about how the justice system actually works and that the old days of just 'kicking' someone out of your athletic programs are over. :thinking:

[Looking4number8]

Originally posted by STANG RED
I hope and think most people are smart enough to not let these few punk ass gang wantabees define their perception of an entire town. Believe me, we are much more disgusted about this than any of you. I've known about these punks for a while now, and have known it was just a matter of time before they screwed up bad enough to be seriously delt with. Now that they have, maybe we can finally get them sent up to where they belong, and away from the many good and decent kids we have in this town. Now lets move on and let the justice system run its course in dealing with these punks.

Well put stang red! Hope it all works out for you guys!

[Snydertigersrul]

Originally posted by ccraker
I'm confused. What do you mean?

Oh, and the Associated Press wrote the story, not us.

I didn't know about it until I was scrolling the wire today.


The AP writer works out of Lubbock

[Snydertigersrul]

I heard that the indictments may come down the week of the Snyder game.


:thinking:

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

Originally posted by STANG RED
I hope and think most people are smart enough to not let these few punk ass gang wantabees define their perception of an entire town. Believe me, we are much more disgusted about this than any of you. I've known about these punks for a while now, and have known it was just a matter of time before they screwed up bad enough to be seriously delt with. Now that they have, maybe we can finally get them sent up to where they belong, and away from the many good and decent kids we have in this town. Now lets move on and let the justice system run its course in dealing with these punks.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Trashman]

Originally posted by STANG RED
I hope and think most people are smart enough to not let these few punk ass gang wantabees define their perception of an entire town. Believe me, we are much more disgusted about this than any of you. I've known about these punks for a while now, and have known it was just a matter of time before they screwed up bad enough to be seriously delt with. Now that they have, maybe we can finally get them sent up to where they belong, and away from the many good and decent kids we have in this town. Now lets move on and let the justice system run its course in dealing with these punks.

Couldn't have said it better myself Red! :clap: :clap:

[garciap77]

Originally posted by STANG RED
I hope and think most people are smart enough to not let these few punk ass gang wantabees define their perception of an entire town. Believe me, we are much more disgusted about this than any of you. I've known about these punks for a while now, and have known it was just a matter of time before they screwed up bad enough to be seriously delt with. Now that they have, maybe we can finally get them sent up to where they belong, and away from the many good and decent kids we have in this town. Now lets move on and let the justice system run its course in dealing with these punks.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Sweetwater Red]

ccmom, you rock! You said it best. :)

Side note: quit deleting the idot PM's you get. ;)

[ccmom]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red


Side note: quit deleting the idot PM's you get. ;) Quit sending them!! Hahahahahaha

[Scholar]

When I was going to school, we had several incidents where players were punished for doing something wrong. Several cases involved underage drinking, a vandalism case, and a poaching case. In all instances, the whole team was gathered and the coach asked us, one by one, if we were involved. It was an honor system, but most of the time, those who were involved confessed to their involvement. The coach would then make a decision on their punishment. The drinking cases were cut and dry: the punishment was already written in stone. In the other cases, he used his discretion. I believe the coach should simply ask the players if they were involved or not.
A couple of years ago, something similar happened, except the victims were two parents leaving a game in a parking lot. They either didn't want to hire a lawyer, or maybe they couldn't afford a lawyer. They tried to tell the coach and the school, but they wouldn't listen. So in effect, if you can't afford a lawyer, then you'll just have to take it on the chin. Literally. I just don't think that's quite right.
Later on, a couple of the players aquired scholarships. However, neither of them got to participate in 1 minute of competition, because they were "kicked" of the team for the same type of behavior. I'm sure they couldn't understand it. Why, they've gotten away with stuff like this all through high school, why not now? It doesn't work that way. If they'd been taught right from wrong in the first place, maybe they would have known how to behave. Instead, scholarships are squandered and no one wins in the end. Sometimes you have to make difficult decisions and discipline kids for their own good and for the good of all of the other kids. If they see that bad behavior leads to punishment, maybe they won't make the same mistakes. Instead these kids have seen this type of behavior leads to no punishment at all. So they think they can do the same thing and get away with it. With each incident, it seems to get worse and worse. What's it going to take to put a stop to this nonsense? A death? Do you all truly believe that no child should ever be disciplined without a guilty verdict in a court of law? If they don't do something about this, nothing will change, and more incidents will occur until someone gets seriously injured or killed.

[RedWhiteBlue]

Originally posted by Scholar
When I was going to school, we had several incidents where players were punished for doing something wrong. Several cases involved underage drinking, a vandalism case, and a poaching case. In all instances, the whole team was gathered and the coach asked us, one by one, if we were involved. It was an honor system, but most of the time, those who were involved confessed to their involvement. The coach would then make a decision on their punishment. The drinking cases were cut and dry: the punishment was already written in stone. In the other cases, he used his discretion. I believe the coach should simply ask the players if they were involved or not.
A couple of years ago, something similar happened, except the victims were two parents leaving a game in a parking lot. They either didn't want to hire a lawyer, or maybe they couldn't afford a lawyer. They tried to tell the coach and the school, but they wouldn't listen. So in effect, if you can't afford a lawyer, then you'll just have to take it on the chin. Literally. I just don't think that's quite right.
Later on, a couple of the players aquired scholarships. However, neither of them got to participate in 1 minute of competition, because they were "kicked" of the team for the same type of behavior. I'm sure they couldn't understand it. Why, they've gotten away with stuff like this all through high school, why not now? It doesn't work that way. If they'd been taught right from wrong in the first place, maybe they would have known how to behave. Instead, scholarships are squandered and no one wins in the end. Sometimes you have to make difficult decisions and discipline kids for their own good and for the good of all of the other kids. If they see that bad behavior leads to punishment, maybe they won't make the same mistakes. Instead these kids have seen this type of behavior leads to no punishment at all. So they think they can do the same thing and get away with it. With each incident, it seems to get worse and worse. What's it going to take to put a stop to this nonsense? A death? Do you all truly believe that no child should ever be disciplined without a guilty verdict in a court of law? If they don't do something about this, nothing will change, and more incidents will occur until someone gets seriously injured or killed.

I don't think anyone is saying that they (players actually involved) should go unpunished here- however, these young men have not even been CHARGED with a crime yet. It has not even been verified by law enforcement who and who is not a viable suspect. So, legally how do school officials have the right to 'punish', as you say, any young man? :thinking:
I am all for holding the young men involved accountable- but right now.... who is that?:confused: Law enforcement and the justice system has yet to tell anyone for sure. JMO

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

Originally posted by Scholar
When I was going to school, we had several incidents where players were punished for doing something wrong. Several cases involved underage drinking, a vandalism case, and a poaching case. In all instances, the whole team was gathered and the coach asked us, one by one, if we were involved. It was an honor system, but most of the time, those who were involved confessed to their involvement. The coach would then make a decision on their punishment. The drinking cases were cut and dry: the punishment was already written in stone. In the other cases, he used his discretion. I believe the coach should simply ask the players if they were involved or not.


Well I don't think the honor system will work with kids that are willing to beat someone senseless, they obviously lack in the morality department.

[swstangs001]

they didnt get beat senseless for no reason, the party at fault stopped before the other party got it going again and thats when the injuries started happening

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by swstangs001
they didnt get beat senseless for no reason, the party at fault stopped before the other party got it going again and thats when the injuries started happening


that's a very confusing post. so there are 2 parties involved?

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by SWMustang
that's a very confusing post. so there are 2 parties involved?

The "beater" and the "beatee?":)

[Snydertigersrul]

Originally posted by RedWhiteBlue
I don't think anyone is saying that they (players actually involved) should go unpunished here- however, these young men have not even been CHARGED with a crime yet. It has not even been verified by law enforcement who and who is not a viable suspect. So, legally how do school officials have the right to 'punish', as you say, any young man? :thinking:
I am all for holding the young men involved accountable- but right now.... who is that?:confused: Law enforcement and the justice system has yet to tell anyone for sure. JMO


A coach doesn't have to go by the same rules as a judge or a police officer. If he knows one of his players did the act, he can take immediate action.

[ccmom]

Originally posted by Snydertigersrul
A coach doesn't have to go by the same rules as a judge or a police officer. If he knows one of his players did the act, he can take immediate action.

And how would he KNOW?? Especially if the police dept has not released names of the suspects to the school district and no one is admitting anything?

I want to see the boys punished...NOW...Off the team and in jail is that's what the justice system determines. I just don't think the coach is at fault at this point. Just my opinion.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by Snydertigersrul
A coach doesn't have to go by the same rules as a judge or a police officer. If he knows one of his players did the act, he can take immediate action.

Maybe you dont pay attention to much outside of your little tigger world drools. But now days coaches or anybody else for that matter can be targeted by the NAACP or other groups, if there is even the slightest hint that racial prejudice might be going on. And no matter how flimsy it is, that brand is hard to wash off once the allegation is made. People cant be too careful now days. Its a crying shame, but thats the society we've allowed the ultra libs to create. So now we have to live with it.

[blowfish]

I have a lot of empathy for coaches when it comes to illegal conduct by athletes. How should they dicipline to kid. What if they are never charged. What if they are charged and found innocent? What if, what if.

I had a situation a few years ago with my own son and I saw how hard it was for his coach to handle it fairly for my son, the other kids, and the school. Not to mention the fact that some parents are just not very easy to deal with. My hats off to them for at least trying to do the right thing.

[BwdLion73]

Originally posted by ccmom
And how would he KNOW?? Especially if the police dept has not released names of the suspects to the school district and no one is admitting anything?

I want to see the boys punished...NOW...Off the team and in jail is that's what the justice system determines. I just don't think the coach is at fault at this point. Just my opinion.

I believe that anyone in Sweetwater involved with the school, team, Law enforcement, or has kids in school knows quite a bit. It's the same as if it happen at Brownwood, Graham or any smaller community. Sweetwater will get on the same page and correct the problem after they get past the rumors and he said she said.

[RedWhiteBlue]

Originally posted by blowfish
I have a lot of empathy for coaches when it comes to illegal conduct by athletes. How should they dicipline to kid. What if they are never charged. What if they are charged and found innocent? What if, what if.

I had a situation a few years ago with my own son and I saw how hard it was for his coach to handle it fairly for my son, the other kids, and the school. Not to mention the fact that some parents are just not very easy to deal with. My hats off to them for at least trying to do the right thing.
Well said.:D

[Phantom Stang]

I don't condone gang violence, but I have to wonder what's the size of the kid the 6'2", 300LB "victim" was going to have a "fair" fight with. Does anyone know?:thinking:

[Snydertigersrul]

Originally posted by ccmom
And how would he KNOW?? Especially if the police dept has not released names of the suspects to the school district and no one is admitting anything?

I want to see the boys punished...NOW...Off the team and in jail is that's what the justice system determines. I just don't think the coach is at fault at this point. Just my opinion.


That rises questions of disclipline. A lot of people already know the names, the police can release them until the information is taken to the Grand Jury and some of them are juveniles.

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by Phantom Stang
I don't condone gang violence, but I have to wonder what's the size of the kid the 6'2", 300LB "victim" was going to have a "fair" fight with. Does anyone know?:thinking:



I'm sure most of us can remember fights from high school. Two guys goin' at it without foreign objects or involvement was considered to be a fair fight.

I'm not endorsing or condoning the action(s) of the ten or so kids. I do, however, have to put SOME of the blame on the Graham kid from Roscoe. His mom is upset.....but she's overlooking the fact that he knowingly went to a physical altercation. She's now upset that he got whipped. It wasn't like he was walking along minding his own business and ten guys jumped him.

Again, I'm not exonerating the Sweetwater kids, but no one should act like the Roscoe could is an innocent victim.

Just my two cents.....

[Scholar]

She said in an interview on KTXS news, that she knew her son wasn't beyond talking some smack that might lead to a fight. She also said that she wouldn't have had a problem if her son had been beaten in fight by one person. I think her main problem is that 10 guys stood around in a circle and took turns kicking her boy in the face, dislocating his kneecap, giving him a concussion, and then vandalizing his car. If it had been a one on one fight and her son would have got beaten up, there would be no aftermath. I've heard no one, including his mother, claim that the boy was innocent.

[Snydertigersrul]

Originally posted by Phantom Stang
I don't condone gang violence, but I have to wonder what's the size of the kid the 6'2", 300LB "victim" was going to have a "fair" fight with. Does anyone know?:thinking:


One on one is a fair fight. Is 10 on 1 a fair fight???

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by Snydertigersrul
One on one is a fair fight. Is 10 on 1 a fair fight???


I don't think anyone suggested that 10-on-1 is a fair fight. The question was, "How big was the single opponent the Roscoe kid thought he was going to meet for what he thought was going to be a 'fair' fight?"

Everyone agrees it was not fair.

Something else to consider. The Sweetwater kids did not go over to Roscoe and find this guy. The Roscoe kid was not on his own turf and was still prepared to fight somebody on what I would not consider to be neutral territory.

Now, if the Roscoe kid and the Sweetwater kid(s) had gone over to Snyder.......:D

[Snydertigersrul]

Originally posted by 88bobcats
I don't think anyone suggested that 10-on-1 is a fair fight. The question was, "How big was the single opponent the Roscoe kid thought he was going to meet for what he thought was going to be a 'fair' fight?"

Everyone agrees it was not fair.

Something else to consider. The Sweetwater kids did not go over to Roscoe and find this guy. The Roscoe kid was not on his own turf and was still prepared to fight somebody on what I would not consider to be neutral territory.

Now, if the Roscoe kid and the Sweetwater kid(s) had gone over to Snyder.......:D


So your answer is that the Sweetwater kids had the right to beat the ?!# out of him.

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by Snydertigersrul
So your answer is that the Sweetwater kids had the right to beat the ?!# out of him.


Not at all. They are certainly a bunch of punks, just like the punks I knew 20+ years ago that ganged up on a dude at a local carnival.


I do not, however, agree with all the statements suggesting that the Roscoe kid was a complete victim.....he was not blameless and it sounds to me like he thought his size was in his favor when he went to a fight on someone else's turf.

I think all those involved on BOTH sides are to be blamed. If they suspend the Sweetwater kids for fighting then they should also suspend the Roscoe kid.


And, with that, I'm off to watch Mid-County Madness: PN-G v. Nederland at The Reservation!

[Mustangpride09]

Originally posted by Scholar
When I was going to school, we had several incidents where players were punished for doing something wrong. Several cases involved underage drinking, a vandalism case, and a poaching case. In all instances, the whole team was gathered and the coach asked us, one by one, if we were involved. It was an honor system, but most of the time, those who were involved confessed to their involvement. The coach would then make a decision on their punishment. The drinking cases were cut and dry: the punishment was already written in stone. In the other cases, he used his discretion. I believe the coach should simply ask the players if they were involved or not.
A couple of years ago, something similar happened, except the victims were two parents leaving a game in a parking lot. They either didn't want to hire a lawyer, or maybe they couldn't afford a lawyer. They tried to tell the coach and the school, but they wouldn't listen. So in effect, if you can't afford a lawyer, then you'll just have to take it on the chin. Literally. I just don't think that's quite right.
Later on, a couple of the players aquired scholarships. However, neither of them got to participate in 1 minute of competition, because they were "kicked" of the team for the same type of behavior. I'm sure they couldn't understand it. Why, they've gotten away with stuff like this all through high school, why not now? It doesn't work that way. If they'd been taught right from wrong in the first place, maybe they would have known how to behave. Instead, scholarships are squandered and no one wins in the end. Sometimes you have to make difficult decisions and discipline kids for their own good and for the good of all of the other kids. If they see that bad behavior leads to punishment, maybe they won't make the same mistakes. Instead these kids have seen this type of behavior leads to no punishment at all. So they think they can do the same thing and get away with it. With each incident, it seems to get worse and worse. What's it going to take to put a stop to this nonsense? A death? Do you all truly believe that no child should ever be disciplined without a guilty verdict in a court of law? If they don't do something about this, nothing will change, and more incidents will occur until someone gets seriously injured or killed.

I think I know what your talking about.

[Mustangpride09]

Originally posted by Snydertigersrul
That rises questions of disclipline. A lot of people already know the names, the police can release them until the information is taken to the Grand Jury and some of them are juveniles.

No, every one of them are juveniles. And the paper saying the Roscoe kid was 17 is wrong, he is, and was 18 at the time of the crime. Not condoning anything, just getting facts straight.