Say it isn't SO

[pirate4state]

Couldn't find a link, so I typed the article (sorry for any typo's)

UIL to survey schools about playoff changes
AUSTIN-Changes could be in store for high school sports playoffs in Texas. University Interscholastic League officials will survey school superintendents across the state this fall on whether to send a fourth team from each district to the postseason.

UIL officials have been studying the issue for months. On Tuesday, its athletics committee agreed to ask the schools what they want to do. If survey results support the change, an official ballot would then be sent to schools for a formal vote.

If ultimately approved, the new format could be in place in time for the 2004 football season, said UIL Athletic Director, Charles Breithaupt.

Under current playoff formats, three teams from each district advance in classes 2A-5A, with the first-place team receiving a first-round bye in all sports except football. Football splits the playoffs into separate divisions in 2A-5A with the biggest schools in each district playing in Division I and the others in Division II.

The survey question would not apply to Class A, which is made up of the state's smallest schools and has a different playoff structure with variations for six-man football and separate basketball divisions.

For those it would affect, adding a fourth team would boost a the Division I football playoffs from 32 teams to 64, Breithaupt said. In the other sports, the addition of a fourth team would eliminate the bye week for the district champion.

It would also mean some districts would send a majority of their teams to the playoffs, even if they had losing records. And under the current alignment, District 11 in Class 5A - Longview, Lufkin, Tyler and Tyler Lee - would send all four teams to the postseason. Districts will be realigned in time for the 2004 football season.

Eddie Joseph, executive vice president of the Texas High School Coaches Association, said the group has informal discussions about the potential change and likely won't make a formal recommendation until after the survey results are announced in October.

SO, it looks like this may actually come to pass. :(

I still say this is a BAD idea!! What are your thoughts??

[3afan]

whats the real harm ??? so more teams get in with less than stellar records ... again, whats the harm ??? the best teams will make their way thru the playoffs and fight for the state titles regardless. any team that loses to a 4th place team does not deserve to be a state champ IMHO.

[big daddy russ]

It's a great feel-good story that Bandera was a third-place team and won the state title. It really is. And I rooted for those boys from Region IV all the way to the end. A classic "Hoosiers" moment. Maybe they'll write a book about it someday. Maybe not.

But getting through the playoffs involves a whole lot of LUCK. Some great teams will be bounced simply because of bad luck, no matter how anybody tries to cut it. You'll hear so many stories about how a team didn't do this or that, but a lot of times that's just what it boils down to. The ball doesn't always bounce your way, and s*** happens. But I think it's crap for a bunch of undertalented kids who fought with each other to a 10-0 season be bounced in the first round by a one-and-done team that went 2-8 and loses in the second round. That undertalented 10-win team might've made it a few rounds deep and made things interesting if they didn't have that one unlucky game.

Football, as everyone knows, is a game of momentum. As much as any other sport this side of baseball, if you have the momentum in a football game it's hard to stop that snowball effect. And as I said earlier, if a team gets one lucky break... just one play, one missed call, whatever... it can turn the game around completely and make what was a tight contest into a four-touchdown blowout.

The playoffs are watered down enough. No mas, por favor.

[shellman54]

ok, this is getting just plain ridiculous!! if they are having a problem with teams having a first round bye, then instead of adding another team, they should drop it back down to only two representatives from each district. that way, teams will have a higher will to win, instead of playing for three spots, now only two. i think it would make for some better games, more emotion, more at stake. also, what ever happened to the concept of expanding to 6A? did that fizzle out?

[Old Dog]

Every time this subject comes up, we all go crazy trying to understand why this and that. It is just a simple matter of two things. One, those that could never make the playoffs thru pure competition get to go and secondly and foremost it's.....MONEY......!!! I'll go to my grave convinced that two teams from each district gives all of the slip space needed. Your school super will vote yes so the school AND the UIL can get mo money!!!!!!!!!!! All that is accomplished is the tarnishing of the playoff system.

[3afan]

how does adding more teams "tarnish the playoff system". please explain. the best teams will win !!! and in budget times such as NOW can you blame schools for doing whatver it takes to fund their programs??? Or would you rather the poorer schools drop athletics??? come playoff time there is the same emotion, the same "will to win" whether you're the 3rd place team, 2nd place, whatever. again, WHATS THE HARM ???

[Showtime33]

I really dont like the idea. It really waters down the playoffs. Three teams is enough. I still kinda wish only two teams went to the playoffs like it use to be. All this would do is make regular season and district games less important. If they go to four teams making the playoffs out of each disctrict then even if you lose 3 or maybe even 4 district games you can still make the playoffs. Who would really want to watch a 10-0 team just hammer a 3-7 team in the first round of the playoffs anyways?

[3afan]

but look at it the other way - how neat would it be to see the 10-0 team battle for their lives against the 3-7 team. and there could be some 3-7 team as good as a 10-0 team! rare but ya never know. again, the best teams will win out, more $s would be generated for more teams (yes that IS important), and more kids will have the playoff experience. i just don't see a big downside .... IMHO of course

[Old Dog]

3afan.....I played ball in the mid 60's, so I've been around a while. Back in the stone age, only the district winner advanced. Some darn good teams that had a bad friday night stayed home. Finally old number two got invited to the dance and that cured some problems. My personal example is 1991 when Burnet and Marble Falls met again in regional. Both teams were very deserving. Later allowing 3 teams to go seemed rather far fetched, but Bandera proved itself then. Sorry, I love Bandera and tip my hat to their championship, but I personally don't approve. Do you realize that when 4 are allowed, there are districts with only 4 members? We might as well send everybody and get them participation trophies while they are at it (you know like little league). This is turning championship football into a feel good thing instead of hard earned accomplishment. The UIL has become an organization of liberal thought; typical of government sectors with too much authority and too much time on their hands.

[Cameronbystander]

This is HIGH SCHOOL not major college or professional sports. The purpose of the sports programs is participation at the school level and recognition of the best at the state level. The teams play district games to determine the best and they are rewarded by going into the playoffs. I think one team per district and one state champion per division (2A, 3A, etc)would be my choice.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Here is why I think it is wrong to have four teams advance...

#1 - This would just add one more round of games for the playoffs. The Fourth place team would play the first seed in a meaningless game except for rare occasions... So let's make it a 17 GAME season that the champ has to play to get the title. Ridiculous... Its just one more game to take a risk of a key injury in a championship run that is already too long at the HS level.

#2 - We have some districts with four teams... Some with ten... does anyone else see a problem? Spend the summer redrawing districts so that they all have six or seven and be done with it.

#3 - Do we really want to see 3-7 and 2-8 teams going to the playoffs? How does this "Better" the playoff system? I can answer the question about how this tarnishes the playoffs. That's easy, IT WATERS DOWN THE COMPETITION. Just take a look at Major League Baseball for a comparison. The Majors keep expanding the number of teams and all you wind up with is too many teams for the amount of pitching talent available. The same effect has and would continue to happen in our HS Playoffs. We already have seen them watered down by the three team system, this would just water it down further. Once in a great while it will produce a great game, but I would wager that the majority of first round games would be very, very one-sided.... Again, a pointless game.

Just my $0.02

<small>[ June 12, 2003, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: slpybear the bullfan ]</small>

[slpybear the bullfan]

Okay, I was curious so I reviewed the fourth place team record statistics for 2002 for all 32 3A districts.

It was pretty interesting... Most 3A teams play in a 6 team district. Most 4th place teams were below .500...

IMHO, if you looked at the W-L records of these teams in 3A... it definitely would water down the competition. I know, I know, W-L records do not always tell the story. But if you look at them in gross, they do tell the trend or an overall story.

For what it is worth, here is the info I crunched...

(PM me if you would like an excel spreadsheet of the data...)

slpybear

-----

Of the 32 teams finishing fourth place in their respective districts in 2002 UIL 3A football season...

Six teams played in 8-school districts
three teams played in 7-school districts
twenty three teams played in 6-school disctricts

The average overall record for the teams was 4.6 wins and 5.4 losses or a 46% winning average. Total wins 148, total losses 173

The average overall district record for the teams was 2.4 wins to 3.1 losses or a 44% winning average. Total district wins 77, total district losses 98

8 of the 32 had winning district records
2 of 32 had even district records
20 or 32 had losing distrit records...

68.7% of all 4th place teams did not have a winning district record...

6 of 32 teams had winning overall records
10 of 32 had even overall records
16 of 32 had losing overall records

81% of all 4th place teams did not have an overall winning record.

[sinton66]

I think most of us agree it's a bad idea. Unfortunately, they aren't going to ask US. It does seem to based in a little greed on the part of the UIL, but there won't be much we can do about it. I really hope they come to their senses, but I wouldn't count on it. wink

[3afan]

slpybear - great stuff ... don't you work !? or sleep !? :D

thats much more compelling than old dog's "feel good" reasoning .. i played in the mid 70s so back then it was only the first place team. yes a 17 game season might be too long, thats the best arguement i'v heard yet. its a good topic though ... will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Ranger Mom]

3afan:
slpybear - great stuff ... don't you work !? or sleep !? :D

thats much more compelling than old dog's "feel good" reasoning .. i played in the mid 70s so back then it was only the first place team. yes a 17 game season might be too long, thats the best arguement i'v heard yet. its a good topic though ... will be interesting to see how it plays out.Of course he doesn't sleep - he has a brand new baby!! eek!

<small>[ June 13, 2003, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Ranger Mom ]</small>

[GOFOR2]

The playoffs should be, and I once thought, to reward those who have endured and played well throughout their district seasons. But placing 4 teams in the playoffs is just plain ridiculous. Yes their are some extremely tough districts that deserve to have many of their teams go, but that is the exception and not the norm. Taking 4 teams would further dilute the process and only prolong an already long-enough postseason, not to mention what it would do during the spring, by limiting playing fields for play off games. The only people benefitting from this are UIL (financial means, of course) and those programs that need to feel good about themselves because they are not very good or do not work hard enough to deserve an entry under the current system.

[3afan]

yeah I remember those days ... can't decide if I'd rather go thru that again or have 2 in college like i'll have this fall ... YIKES

[PPHSfan]

I have heard the argument that a 10-0 team might have to play a 2-8 team in the playoffs. Well as far as I am concerned this could be a 5-0 team playing a 2-3 team, because District Play is the only play that matters. Now throw in the fact that some districts have 4 or 5 teams that are better than the first place team in other districts and the equation gets even muddier. Look at Wills Point last year. They murdered everyone they played for ten games, which amounted to murdering just about nobody, then they got hammered by a quality program in the first round. Bandera obviously comes from a tough district, they scrape by to grab the third playoff spot and pull of a State Championship. The bottom line is this...There will never be a way for the playoffs to be Fair across the board. So we can...

1. Leave well enough alone.

2. Go back to ONE team per district.

3. Switch to four teams.

4. Establish a BHSA :p

5. Let the 3a Down Low vote for the final 64 teams regardless of district :D

6. Put all 207 names in a hat and pick a champion.

7. Let Old Cardinal decide the trophy winner.

8. Let the coaches armwrestle for spots.

9. Just take turns :D

10. Shall I continue?

[Old Dog]

3afan...the "feel good" comment was used to align this situation with the typical thinking of the Liberal Left. "Feel good" is a political term used widely among those objecting to a largely mandated system of morality.

[3afan]

i know old dog ... by the way i'll be down your way july 2-6, family has a house on inks ...

[Old Tiger]

Does this mean there could possibly be a Cindarella story? :p

[slpybear the bullfan]

3afan:
slpybear - great stuff ... don't you work !? or sleep !? :D Sleep? Huh? What? Mommy?

Heh, Heh, yes as was mentioned, the baby keeps us running on catnaps.

Why don't we just cut up the state into 10 classifications and have one champ per district? All this big school small school stuff would be eliminated and we could just play straight up...

[big daddy russ]

Bottom line is this... if your team gets fourth place and goes to the playoffs, will you go watch them? Of course you will.

By the way, with the rate that they're expanding the playoffs, how long does everyone think it'll take before they add so many rounds that football becomes a year-round sport? See, maybe there is an upside to the madness. :D

<small>[ June 14, 2003, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: big daddy russ ]</small>