Can republicans and democrats agree on this

[Electus Unus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brj2UkUPjCI

[PPHSfan]

I don't know anyone who has lost their job to "them". "Illegal immigration" is just an accepted form of racism.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I don't know anyone who has lost their job to "them". "Illegal immigration" is just an accepted form of racism.

Well losing jobs can mean many diff things

outsourcing HAS taken American jobs

[BuffyMars]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I don't know anyone who has lost their job to "them". "Illegal immigration" is just an accepted form of racism.

that is ludicrous! i know many mexican-americans who came to this country and earned their rights and their keep the proper way and don't want to be affiliated with "illegals."

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Well losing jobs can mean many diff things

outsourcing HAS taken American jobs

I agree, but Americans can't get upset about outsourcing and want to buy 19 dollar DVD players at Wal-Mart at the same time.

Free enterprise is a wonderful thing, but there is no rule that you have to do it only in America.

[BreckTxLonghorn]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I agree, but Americans can't get upset about outsourcing and want to buy 19 dollar DVD players at Wal-Mart at the same time.

Free enterprise is a wonderful thing, but there is no rule that you have to do it only in America.

My thoughts exactly.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I agree, but Americans can't get upset about outsourcing and want to buy 19 dollar DVD players at Wal-Mart at the same time.

Free enterprise is a wonderful thing, but there is no rule that you have to do it only in America.


oh I agree 10000% people cant have it both ways..If you want truly cheaper goods the price is less jobs in America because of Unions( not agianst them just fact) and higher cost of wages.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by BuffyMars
that is ludicrous! i know many mexican-americans who came to this country and earned their rights and their keep the proper way and don't want to be affiliated with "illegals."

Huh?

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Huh?

she was basically agreeing with u lol

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PPHSfan
I agree, but Americans can't get upset about outsourcing and want to buy 19 dollar DVD players at Wal-Mart at the same time.

Free enterprise is a wonderful thing, but there is no rule that you have to do it only in America. [/QUOTE


oh I agree 10000% people cant have it both ways..If you want truly cheaper goods the price is less jobs in America because of Unions( not agianst them just fact) and higher cost of wages. you can lower wages all you want, if we match what they make in those nations society as whole would fold on itself, Americans couldn't afford what they produce and you'd have Marx's 1st contradiction of capitalism come into play. It was capitalism's malleability to this critique that enabled it to circumnavigate the crisis, however as globalized economies emerged, it really doesn't matter what we agree to in labor, we can't undercut an undeveloped, unskilled, inexhaustible, unorganized labor force in a nation where it's leaders gain huge incentives from TNCs to allow such exploitation for the acquisition of loans to build an infrastructure that can move these products easily and cheaply to port or rail. Unions have by-proxy suffered as result of this in the United States, with the exception of those in the service industry and industries that just can't pick up and leave (railroad).

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
you can lower wages all you want, if we match what they make in those nations society as whole would fold on itself, Americans couldn't afford what they produce and you'd have Marx's 1st contradiction of capitalism come into play. It was capitalism's malleability to this critique that enabled it to circumnavigate the crisis, however as globalized economies emerged, it really doesn't matter what we agree to in labor, we can't undercut an undeveloped, unskilled, inexhaustible, unorganized labor force in a nation where it's leaders gain huge incentives from TNCs to allow such exploitation for the acquisition of loans to build an infrastructure that can move these products easily and cheaply to port or rail. Unions have by-proxy suffered as result of this in the United States, with the exception of those in the service industry and industries that just can't pick up and leave (railroad).


We cannot now...We could have BEFORE the outsourcing began.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
you can lower wages all you want, if we match what they make in those nations society as whole would fold on itself, Americans couldn't afford what they produce and you'd have Marx's 1st contradiction of capitalism come into play. It was capitalism's malleability to this critique that enabled it to circumnavigate the crisis, however as globalized economies emerged, it really doesn't matter what we agree to in labor, we can't undercut an undeveloped, unskilled, inexhaustible, unorganized labor force in a nation where it's leaders gain huge incentives from TNCs to allow such exploitation for the acquisition of loans to build an infrastructure that can move these products easily and cheaply to port or rail. Unions have by-proxy suffered as result of this in the United States, with the exception of those in the service industry and industries that just can't pick up and leave (railroad).

I personally don't condone lowering wages. I'm all for outsourcing. Except of course when it comes to customer service. I can read the canned responses on the company website better than the third world goon saying "hallow spinth coustimer servik, how can I help yew."

[Electus Unus]

Yall do know this thread is about Goobacks, right?
http://images.tvrage.com/screencaps/27/5266/159677.jpg

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
We cannot now...We could have BEFORE the outsourcing began. the outsourcing was inevitable, the need to extend the dividend is insatiable. It only required the technology and rather than increase wages and salaries they reinvested in R&D for production and transportation immediately following WWII. Once an adequate system was in place, the dominos continued to fall and it only needed the leash to be let go which Reagan and Thatcher unknowingly released. What was supposed to bring democracy and capitalism to the world brought poverty and exploitation, hence it's rebuke globally where nations and govts have sought to release themselves from these loans made under different regimes.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by DDBooger
you can lower wages all you want, if we match what they make in those nations society as whole would fold on itself, Americans couldn't afford what they produce and you'd have Marx's 1st contradiction of capitalism come into play. It was capitalism's malleability to this critique that enabled it to circumnavigate the crisis, however as globalized economies emerged, it really doesn't matter what we agree to in labor, we can't undercut an undeveloped, unskilled, inexhaustible, unorganized labor force in a nation where it's leaders gain huge incentives from TNCs to allow such exploitation for the acquisition of loans to build an infrastructure that can move these products easily and cheaply to port or rail. Unions have by-proxy suffered as result of this in the United States, with the exception of those in the service industry and industries that just can't pick up and leave (railroad).
I can't believe it, but I can actually agree with you on this.:eek: There is no way this country can compete with those countries that are under Totalitarian or Communist rule. They have what amounts to SLAVE labor, and an inexhaustible labor force to boot. If you think the separation between the rich and poor is bad in this country, just take a look at China! Those rich are exploiting the poor, while improving infrastructure to help them get even richer!

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by Electus Unus
Yall do know this thread is about Goobacks, right?
http://images.tvrage.com/screencaps/27/5266/159677.jpg

:doh: I thought it was about Dewbacks.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by waterboy
I can't believe it, but I can actually agree with you on this.:eek: There is no way this country can compete with those countries that are under Totalitarian or Communist rule. They have what amounts to SLAVE labor, and an inexhaustible labor force to boot. If you think the separation between the rich and poor is bad in this country, just take a look at China! Those rich are exploiting the poor, while improving infrastructure to help them get even richer! It happens in democratic and capitalist societies as well. It isn't the economic philosophy, but the divide in class structure. NO matter what a country subscribes to, their is the strong and the weak.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by waterboy
I can't believe it, but I can actually agree with you on this.:eek: There is no way this country can compete with those countries that are under Totalitarian or Communist rule. They have what amounts to SLAVE labor, and an inexhaustible labor force to boot. If you think the separation between the rich and poor is bad in this country, just take a look at China! Those rich are exploiting the poor, while improving infrastructure to help them get even richer!

Contrary to popular belief, this is not really a new idea.:p

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
the outsourcing was inevitable, the need to extend the dividend is insatiable. It only required the technology and rather than increase wages and salaries they reinvested in R&D for production and transportation immediately following WWII. Once an adequate system was in place, the dominos continued to fall and it only needed the leash to be let go which Reagan and Thatcher unknowingly released. What was supposed to bring democracy and capitalism to the world brought poverty and exploitation, hence it's rebuke globally where nations and govts have sought to release themselves from these loans made under different regimes.

As waterboy said..alot of the blame is on the fact places like China wised up an allowed JUST enough capitalism in to be able to create the products we want thru the slave labor

And we could have prevented it to an extent. I am not a 100% free market guy, I believe regulation is needed. We could have not allowed imports from China just like we did not allow imports from Russia

instead we have propped China's regime up with our want want civilization. Instead of choking them off economicly speaking

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
As waterboy said..alot of the blame is on the fact places like China wised up an allowed JUST enough capitalism in to be able to create the products we want thru the slave labor

And we could have prevented it to an extent. I am not a 100% free market guy, I believe regulation is needed. We could have not allowed imports from China just like we did not allow imports from Russia

instead we have propped China's regime up with our want want civilization. Instead of choking them off economicly speaking I see what your saying, but in essence what occurred was the perfect storm, there was a method to the madness of Nixon visiting China! Opening them up meant a labor force to quench every salivating industrial giant's mouth!

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
I see what your saying, but in essence what occurred was the perfect storm, there was a method to the madness of Nixon visiting China! Opening them up meant a labor force to quench every salivating industrial giant's mouth!


yep ur right..it was part greed,,, but also part fantasy idealogy that we could convert them to our way of thinking

I always chuckle when the far right lampoons the far left belief that we can live in a socialistic perfect way of life...but many on the far right think we can "show" our form of government to other countries and they will just fall in love and want to convert 100%

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
yep ur right..it was part greed,,, but also part fantasy idealogy that we could convert them to our way of thinking

I always chuckle when the far right lampoons the far left belief that we can live in a socialistic perfect way of life...but many on the far right think we can "show" our form of government to other countries and they will just fall in love and want to convert 100% Nations that developed their own form of capitalism have all shown success and maintained some semblance of socialistic programs to protect their people from what we have seen increasingly out of wall street. Those enticed (developing nations and south hemisphere) have seen massive poverty, inequity and suffocating loans as well as natural resource acquisition by corporations who have bought rights from banks as a result of defaulted loans to the World Bank and IMF.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Contrary to popular belief, this is not really a new idea.:p

^^^^^What he said.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Those enticed (developing nations and south hemisphere) have seen massive poverty, inequity and suffocating loans as well as natural resource acquisition by corporations who have bought rights from banks as a result of defaulted loans to the World Bank and IMF.


well one thing..those enticed struggle not only with the corps, but also with a created learned helplessness

Name a truly rich country that failed once it switched( I dont mean a country that the dicator was keeping all the money)

Russia was in economic dissaray before it switched to a more capitalistic economy.

These people that are thrown into this new form of economy truly have no idea how to fend for themselves and no matter if you pro-capital or anti all will agree that capitalism is BASED off of being able to survive and thrive.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
well one thing..those enticed struggle not only with the corps, but also with a created learned helplessness

Name a truly rich country that failed once it switched( I dont mean a country that the dicator was keeping all the money)

Russia was in economic dissaray before it switched to a more capitalistic economy.

These people that are thrown into this new form of economy truly have no idea how to fend for themselves and no matter if you pro-capital or anti all will agree that capitalism is BASED off of being able to survive and thrive. Actually Russia languished for a long time until their oil and gas infrastructure started to make a difference, but much like a larger Texas, when the price of Oil went down you saw Russia in decline again. That nation suffers from poor diversification and rampant fraud in its economic sector. The most successful capitalistic nation has been a communist one, China. LOL Korea was doing wonders for itself until it committed to the global banks. Eastern Europe is a sh*t hole and has been since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Measuring true success and success of a few are not one in the same

[waterboy]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Contrary to popular belief, this is not really a new idea.:p
Oh, I know it's been going on for centuries. I'm just saying that's it in a nutshell. I'm just surprised that DD has come up with something that makes sense.......:p :p :D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by waterboy
Oh, I know it's been going on for centuries. I'm just saying that's it in a nutshell. I'm just surprised that DD has come up with something that makes sense.......:p :p :D well, I happen to think all of it makes sense, some people just take longer to wrap their mind around it, sort of requires a re-education from what we ABSOLUTELY know to inconvenient realities. ;)

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
Actually Russia languished for a long time until their oil and gas infrastructure started to make a difference, but much like a larger Texas, when the price of Oil went down you saw Russia in decline again. That nation suffers from poor diversification and rampant fraud in its economic sector. The most successful capitalistic nation has been a communist one, China. LOL Korea was doing wonders for itself until it committed to the global banks. Eastern Europe is a sh*t hole and has been since he collapse of the Soviet Union. Measuring true success and success of a few are not one in the same

I was saying Russia struggled before and after the conversion


China does not have legit capitalism They have Government run capitalism. There is no true Wage scale that can be changed by the job market, or by demand. The governemt is the ONLY entity that truly enjoys a capitalistic value

[waterboy]

Regardless of what political view you have, or political system you're under, one thing we CAN all agree on is that there's always gonna be a disparity between the haves and have-nots. The only difference is the civil liberties afforded to the have-nots to be able to overcome the bondage and become one of the haves. Where those civil liberties are infringed upon, or non-existent, is where the gap between them is wider.:p

[waterboy]

Originally posted by DDBooger
well, I happen to think all of it makes sense, some people just take longer to wrap their mind around it, sort of requires a re-education from what we ABSOLUTELY know to inconvenient realities. ;)
The difference between us, my poor misguided friend, is how to overcome these realities.:p :p :D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I was saying Russia struggled before and after the conversion economically yes, but what came after was 1000x increase in other things associated with capitalism, THE BLACK MARKET! LOL No big surprise that after we saw such a huge influx of Russian and Chechen mafia



Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
China does not have legit capitalism They have Government run capitalism. There is no true Wage scale that can be changed by the job market, or by demand. The governemt is the ONLY entity that truly enjoys a capitalistic value actually if you do some reseach you'll see a flourishing upper middle class in china, what we'd call the middle managers. Now freedoms are limited, but shopping power is encouraged from them. It may be Govt run capitalism, but it has proven successful for a portion of their society, while per capita to their population not large, but in comparison to us, quite substantial. That nation is just so damn big.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
economically yes, but what came after was 1000x increase in other things associated with capitalism, THE BLACK MARKET! LOL No big surprise that after we saw such a huge influx of Russian and Chechen mafia


actually if you do some reseach you'll see a flourishing upper middle class in china, what we'd call the middle managers. Now freedoms are limited, but shopping power is encouraged from them. It may be Govt run capitalism, but it has proven successful for a portion of their society, while per capita to their population not large, but in comparison to us, quite substantial. That nation is just so damn big.

yes there is a growing middle class and also a growing upperclass

BUT it will be capped. Here in America IN THEORY anyone can become rich..in China that is still in the birthing stage

Also look at how MANY of the Millionares became rich...kinda like your first comment about the Russian Blackmarket. They skirted the rules in place in China..after the first list of Chinese millionares was listed by Forbes many were then arrested and charged with tax evasion, bribery or black market

So either they were making their money illegal off of the darkside of capitalism, OR the Government was creating these illegalities to keep the wealth numbers down.

China is not stupid. They will allow enough wealth to keep the government coffers full..but not enough wealth that they wake up one day and the country is more controlled by the buisness elite than the government

[waterboy]

Why wouldn't China encourage their middle class to spend money? It lines their pockets with more money because they get a big percentage of it. Funny what greed does to people, huh?:D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
yes there is a growing middle class and also a growing upperclass

BUT it will be capped. Here in America IN THEORY anyone can become rich..in China that is still in the birthing stage

Also look at how MANY of the Millionares became rich...kinda like your first comment about the Russian Blackmarket. They skirted the rules in place in China..after the first list of Chinese millionares was listed by Forbes many were then arrested and charged with tax evasion, bribery or black market

So either they were making their money illegal off of the darkside of capitalism, OR the Government was creating these illegalities to keep the wealth numbers down.

China is not stupid. They will allow enough wealth to keep the government coffers full..but not enough wealth that they wake up one day and the country is more controlled by the buisness elite than the government
great analysis! Your damn right they won't cede power to the business elite, they'll make em billions (stock holders and owners of corporations that share the wealth with Govt), but they have NO say in what transpires in China. Which is the inverse of what we have here. I'd love for regulation to work, but in every huge wall street meltdown it has involved some form of letdown or complicit behavior from the regulators. Who subsequently leave the govt job and go to work for the corporations they were monitoring in the 1st place. It doesn't look real good on a resume to say you busted so and so for trading violations. Bah! it disgusts me.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I don't know anyone who has lost their job to "them". "Illegal immigration" is just an accepted form of racism.

I happen to think that ILLEGAL immigration is just that..... ILLEGAL meaning against the law and they should be rounded up and shown the door. People who have followed the naturalization process are getting shafted if these other guys are allowed to stay.

[TexasHSFB]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I don't know anyone who has lost their job to "them". "Illegal immigration" is just an accepted form of racism. Apparently you haven't looked at the construction business lately.


The fact that several can live under a single roof and split the bills allows them to work for much cheaper, displacing the average american man who supports his entire family HERE who has to charge a bit more.


Everybody loves cheaper prices.... but when it goes that far... well.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
Apparently you haven't looked at the construction business lately.


The fact that several can live under a single roof and split the bills allows them to work for much cheaper, displacing the average american man who supports his entire family HERE who has to charge a bit more.


Everybody loves cheaper prices.... but when it goes that far... well.

The challenges of free enterprise means that we all have to be willing and acceptable to change. If it means lower housing costs because someone else can put shingles on faster and cheaper so be it. The great American Cowboy didn't like the railroad either, but he hung up his hat and persevered. I can only imagine what a steak would cost today if we still had to walk the cattle to market.

[TexasHSFB]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
The challenges of free enterprise means that we all have to be willing and acceptable to change. If it means lower housing costs because someone else can put shingles on faster and cheaper so be it. The great American Cowboy didn't like the railroad either, but he hung up his hat and persevered. I can only imagine what a steak would cost today if we still had to walk the cattle to market. So you think it's fair that 10 illegal mexican-americans can live under a single roof, sit on a curb til someone pulls up and takes em to work, provides them with lunch, then takes them back home (meanwhile charging 40% of what "normal" americans have to charge because of what and who they actually have to provide for and pay actual bills)?



You think that is fair to the average hard working american man who supports his family. A bunch of illegals casn come in and take his work because they have no bills to pay for and they minimal money they make will support their families back in Mexico?


The construction business(not nailing shingles----- I'm talking about bricks, stone, foundations, sheetrocking, etc.) is all but foreign run now because it has displaced nearly all american workers.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
So you think it's fair that 10 illegal mexican-americans can live under a single roof, sit on a curb til someone pulls up and takes em to work, provides them with lunch, then takes them back home (meanwhile charging 40% of what "normal" americans have to charge because of what and who they actually have to provide for and pay actual bills)?



You think that is fair to the average hard working american man who supports his family. A bunch of illegals casn come in and take his work because they have no bills to pay for and they minimal money they make will support their families back in Mexico?


The construction business(not nailing shingles----- I'm talking about bricks, stone, foundations, sheetrocking, etc.) is all but foreign run now because it has displaced nearly all american workers.

I think it shows a lot of initiative and a willingness to work when ten men will live together under on roof in order to be able to provide for their families. I'm sorry, but I don't think immigration should be illegal. It doesn't say RSVP anywhere on the statue of Liberty, and at some point in time our Forefathers were the illegal immigrants that built this country. What makes one group better than the other?

[TexasHSFB]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I think it shows a lot of initiative and a willingness to work when ten men will live together under on roof in order to be able to provide for their families. I'm sorry, but I don't think immigration should be illegal. It doesn't say RSVP anywhere on the statue of Liberty, and at some point in time our Forefathers were the illegal immigrants that built this country. What makes one group better than the other? I'm not saying one group is better. I'm asking if you think it's fair that immigrants can take american jobs and funnelt he money to another country?


I don't understand why they can't legally come to the states and work for construction companies for a base wage like americans do.


That would provide equal opportunity and would be legal and not displace americans because it would be "survival of the fittest" or best workers.... not the cheapest workers. That's how I think it should be.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
I'm not saying one group is better. I'm asking if you think it's fair that immigrants can take american jobs and funnelt he money to another country?


I don't understand why they can't legally come to the states and work for construction companies for a base wage like americans do.


That would provide equal opportunity and would be legal and not displace americans because it would be "survival of the fittest" or best workers.... not the cheapest workers. That's how I think it should be.

Do you honestly think that a poor Mexican that has to sneak across the border to get here, would have any means available to him to "legally" enter this country.

Do I think it's fair?

Absolutely. You can't have free enterprise both ways. If somebody else can do it cheaper than you, you better change your ways or do something else. As soon as someone figures out how to do what I do for a living cheaper than me, you can bet your ass I will be looking for something else to do. I will provide for my family and myself, not sit around complaining that somebody else found a better way.

[PPHSfan]

By the way. I was in the construction business for years. I grew up doing carpentry work, and if I was young again, there is no way I would try to compete with the Mexican tradesmen that dominate the profession now. That may be why I'm no longer in the construction business.

[TexasHSFB]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
By the way. I was in the construction business for years. I grew up doing carpentry work, and if I was young again, there is no way I would try to compete with the Mexican tradesmen that dominate the profession now. That may be why I'm no longer in the construction business. Precisely. I can see your point. I applaud it and agree to an extent... I just have a feeling that that "poor mexican" could obtain a legal worker's visa or something to that extent.


I think free enterprise is great, but I think it has to be protected from abuse, which I beleive is happening in this particular case. You disagree and that's fine. :)

[TexasHSFB]

"Precisely" was to the quote. The rest was to the post before. Sorry for the confusion.

[PPHSfan]

I think that the difference may be what we feel the term "fair" means. Unfair and unfortunate have two different meaning to me. While I agree that it's unfortunate that some are losing their jobs to cheaper labor, I can't see it as unfair.

[PPHSfan]

Furthermore,

Whenever I hear someone say they lost their "job" to cheap labor, my response is.."You may have lost a 'job', but you didn't lose your right to work. And you certainly did not lose your right to provide."

[TexasHSFB]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Furthermore,

Whenever I hear someone say they lost their "job" to cheap labor, my response is.."You may have lost a 'job', but you didn't lose your right to work. And you certainly did not lose your right to provide." Well, I agree with the quote 100% but I think the system is being abused in this case still. When worker's can provide work for 40% of the norm because of living situations and bills, it takes away all competition for work. There is 0 chance at all that the american worker can even have a chance at landing the job. He would have to change profession alltogether. How many 50 y/o men do you know that can just change theiur lifelong profession to accomodate these new cheap workers. I don't know many.


They still try to provide for the familys, they just can't compete at all because of the minimal labor costs for the hispanics. I'm not whining, just pointing out one case of several just like it. The typical working man doesn't whine over this sort of thing. He has no control over it. It's just soemthing that has happened and they've got to try and push through it or adjust. Thankfully there are still people who will pay extra for quality work.