My honest opinion on Socialism [Archive]

DDBooger

07-10-2009, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by SintonFan
See no evil...
hear no evil... :D but you talk a lot of it! :p

Lots of successful people out of Europe, they seem to do just fine with it. Americans shouldn't blame socialism for not being able to find inspiration. We have plenty of other systemic reasons social, economic, psychological, blah blah. It's endless.

oh and I'm not a socialist as Americans call it, the govt is simply too corrupted to do so in any manner that makes a difference. As a matter of fact, using socialism to bail out and rescue rich is hardly part of its tenets but that has become something we are becoming accustomed to, it's just some parties get more flack for it when both have practiced it, ask Ron Paul ;)

SintonFan

07-10-2009, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by DDBooger
but you talk a lot of it! :p

Lots of successful people out of Europe, they seem to do just fine with it. Americans shouldn't blame socialism for not being able to find inspiration. We have plenty of other systemic reasons social, economic, psychological, blah blah. It's endless.

oh and I'm not a socialist as Americans call it, the govt is simply too corrupted to do so in any manner that makes a difference. As a matter of fact, using socialism to bail out and rescue rich is hardly part of its tenets but that has become something we are becoming accustomed to, it's just some parties get more flack for it when both have practiced it, ask Ron Paul ;)
.
I'll ask him if you are a supporter. I got his number right here.:D

DDBooger

07-10-2009, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
I'll ask him if you are a supporter. I got his number right here.:D not quite, but I really like the guy a lot.

SintonFan

07-10-2009, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by DDBooger
not quite, but I really like the guy a lot.
.
Of course... he's a "girl Doctor".:eek:

SintonFan

07-10-2009, 01:02 AM

Gni yall.:)

PPHSfan

07-10-2009, 01:05 AM

I think I might be a Libertarian.:eek:

Take the quiz (http://24ahead.com/political-quiz.php)

I. B. Watching

07-10-2009, 11:37 AM

so you are against social security? Just asking

sinfan75

07-10-2009, 07:08 PM

As somebody told me "Socialism is a great idea but it can't work in the long run".

SintonFan

07-10-2009, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by I. B. Watching
so you are against social security? Just asking
.
Are you for it even though you pay in to the system and most likely won't see a dime when you retire?:D

PPHSfan

07-10-2009, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by I. B. Watching
so you are against social security? Just asking

I think Social Security should be an insurance policy for the disabled, not a retirement plan for those who failed to save.

I. B. Watching

07-11-2009, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
Are you for it even though you pay in to the system and most likely won't see a dime when you retire?:D
I'm pretty confident it'll be there when I retire. I'm not that far away:D
But actually, I was questioning whether or not the poster thought the idea of social security was flawed when it was put in place by the Roosevelt Administration I believe during the 1930s.

ronwx5x

07-11-2009, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I think Social Security should be an insurance policy for the disabled, not a retirement plan for those who failed to save.

I saved and it's called social security. In addition, I have saved in my retirement plan. When you figure a withdrawal rate from savings of only 5%, it takes a LOT of savings to get an income of $50,000 (figure $1,000,000). I certainly intend to make my social security savings part of my income, and will be happy to have it.

I'm not happy that the retirement age for SSA was raised, but at least I'm still working at 64 1/2.

crabman

07-11-2009, 06:49 PM

This is going to try to link athletics, the economy, R&D and everything else American. Do any of you think that it is coincidence that for the last 230 plus years Americans have been left to do their absolute best in every aspect of their life and and beat the other guy with all of their soul and all of their might. How can 5% of the world's population make all of the greatest pharmaceutical drugs, have the fastest athletes, make every great scientific advance of the last 50 years, and control 1/4 of the world's economy? We are left to our own devices. The government can't do it. There is nothing they do better than the private sector where capitalism works. Housing? Postal Service? VA Hospitals? Department of Education? Come on.....

Now we have a guy in there who says that the people who have done their best need to have that taken away and given to the one's who have not. Capitalism does not guarantee equal outcome, it guarantees equal opportunity. When 50% plus one of the people are not paying taxes and they are free to vote themselves money from the other 49% there will be a revolution. We are spinning too fast right now and I am not sure we can stop it.

Old Cardinal

07-11-2009, 08:35 PM

There are two simple definitions:

Free Enterprise System: The people take precedent over the government.

Socialism/Marxism: The government takes precedents over the people.

Why doesn't someone take these two Definitions and put them on a preference POLL on here. I think the results will be interesting!

rockdale80

07-11-2009, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
There are two simple definitions:

Free Enterprise System: The people take precedent over the government.

Socialism/Marxism: The government takes precedents over the people.

Why doesn't someone take these two Definitions and put them on a preference POLL on here. I think the results will be interesting!

Free enterprise" Big businesses take precedent over the people.

It is a good theory, but it doesnt work in reality because corporate greed takes over. We all witnessed first hand what happens when banks are deregulated and thanks to Bush we are paying for it. Or you could just pin that on Obama like so many of the uninformed tend to do. Not saying I am a staunch supporter of the guy, but I think if people are going to point fingers they need to be in the right direction. ;)

Also, Bush gave the first round of automotive bailouts away too.

rockdale80

07-11-2009, 09:02 PM

Look, I have no issue with people opposing corporate bailouts, but dont play the blame Obama game unless he is directly to blame. People say he is the reason for these handouts, but bailouts have been historically republican and the bulk of the most recent ones are no different. I understand Bush is gone and I am happy for that, but that doesn't undo what was done, unless Obama can undo $850 billion handed out under the Bush adminstration. So going from there how do you blame all of the "socialism" on the democrats or Obama?

rockdale80

07-11-2009, 09:14 PM

How is this at a faster rate than before? Bush and co gave away far more money than the current administration.... Has Obama and friends given away more than $850 billion?

JasperDog94

07-11-2009, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
We all witnessed first hand what happens when banks are deregulated and thanks to Bush we are paying for it. People came forward to warn about Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. They were told to shut up and leave them alone and that there was nothing wrong with what was going on. I wonder who was defending Freddie and Fannie?

link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63siCHvuGFg)

rockdale80

07-12-2009, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
People came forward to warn about Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac. They were told to shut up and leave them alone and that there was nothing wrong with what was going on. I wonder who was defending Freddie and Fannie?

link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63siCHvuGFg)

Really? Weird... Also, coming from someone that works in the mortgage industry I am confident I know several bits of information that you probably dont know. Check out the link below though. I am confident you have been misinformed. The blame crosses public and private policy lines and both parties as well.

Really (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/who_caused_the_economic_crisis.html)

ETB, when were you holding the previous administration to the fire? You came out of the woodwork with this "non-partisan" approach, but I remember you being a defender of the previous administration. Regardless, the budgets proposed by Obama also includes provisions to reduce the debt he inherited by $533 trillion dollars. Only time will tell. Dont bury your head in the sand for fear just yet. ;) :p

JasperDog94

07-12-2009, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Really? Weird... Also, coming from someone that works in the mortgage industry I am confident I know several bits of information that you probably dont know. Check out the link below though. I am confident you have been misinformed. The blame crosses public and private policy lines and both parties as well.
There is no doubt that there is plenty of blame to go around. All I was saying was that somebody tried to do something about it before it was too late. Dodd and Frank were two of the leading politicians who said no.

rockdale80

07-12-2009, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
There is no doubt that there is plenty of blame to go around. All I was saying was that somebody tried to do something about it before it was too late. Dodd and Frank were two of the leading politicians who said no.

Regardless, you are blaming the wrong people. The bill made it out of committee in the Senate but was never brought up for consideration. At that time, Republicans had a majority in the Senate and controlled the agenda. Democrats never got the chance to vote against it or to mount a filibuster to block it. Them opposing it didnt mean the bill failed if the republicans never brought it to the floor to be voted on. Did you read the link or just ignore it and pretend the facts dont exist? Also, this bill you are speaking of would have done little to cushion the banking crisis. There are several banks out there that were in trouble by then and having a firesale for bad loans.

JasperDog94

07-12-2009, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Regardless, you are blaming the wrong people. The bill made it out of committee in the Senate but was never brought up for consideration. At that time, Republicans had a majority in the Senate and controlled the agenda. Democrats never got the chance to vote against it or to mount a filibuster to block it. Them opposing it didnt mean the bill failed if the republicans never brought it to the floor to be voted on. Did you read the link or just ignore it and pretend the facts dont exist? Also, this bill you are speaking of would have done little to cushion the banking crisis. There are several banks out there that were in trouble by then and having a firesale for bad loans. Yes I read much of the link. So are you saying that when somebody says leave lending institution A & B alone and those particular institutions are a main cause for the collapse (not all but a main cause) then they should not be called on it?

It may be your opinion that this particular bill would have done little. We'll never know. I seem to remember that the dems were threatening a filibuster, but I'm not sure about that. The repubs may not have introduced the legislation because they didn't have the votes to break a filibuster. I know that happens quite often. At any rate, this bill was introduced several years before the collapse so who knows how much damage could have been avoided. Bottom line is nothing was done to prevent it and then the wrong things were done (and are still being done) to try and correct it.

rockdale80

07-12-2009, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Yes I read much of the link. So are you saying that when somebody says leave lending institution A & B alone and those particular institutions are a main cause for the collapse (not all but a main cause) then they should not be called on it?

It may be your opinion that this particular bill would have done little. We'll never know. I seem to remember that the dems were threatening a filibuster, but I'm not sure about that. The repubs may not have introduced the legislation because they didn't have the votes to break a filibuster. I know that happens quite often. At any rate, this bill was introduced several years before the collapse so who knows how much damage could have been avoided. Bottom line is nothing was done to prevent it and then the wrong things were done (and are still being done) to try and correct it.

That is correct, but you cannot honestly hold two democrats accountable or say that one party is more responsible than the other. My only point is you cant blame this mess on one party more than the other. And no, this isnt me trying to soften the democrats role in this mess. They are on the hook for it as well.

Old Cardinal

07-12-2009, 05:11 PM

My opinion of all of this stuff is that:

Capitalism is not the problem: Ivy League parasites with absolutely free Ivy League educations is the problem.

These people throughout adult lives have lived off the taxpayer.

Don's spread the wealth spread the work ethic of those in the private and corporate workplaces!

Lived off taxpayer money only to became a multi-millionaire all on taxpayer money and now
is the lead man in the District of Corruption.

Seems those that choose to exploit the liberal mind set have it made....LOL

rockdale80

07-12-2009, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
My opinion of all of this stuff is that:

Capitalism is not the problem: Ivy League parasites with absolutely free Ivy League educations is the problem.

These people throughout adult lives have lived off the taxpayer.

Don's spread the wealth spread the work ethic of those in the private and corporate workplaces!

Lived off taxpayer money only to became a multi-millionaire all on taxpayer money and now
is the lead man in the District of Corruption.

Seems those that choose to exploit the liberal mind set have it made....LOL

Corporations utilize more government handouts than the citizens do. You cant take stabs at the poor and promote captitalism when you consider where out tax money goes. The federal government spent $92 billion in direct and indirect subsidies to businesses and private- sector corporate entities — expenditures commonly referred to as "corporate welfare" — in fiscal year 2006. Sort of hard to promote capitalism when you have companines sucking on the government teat. ;)

There are plenty of rich people becoming multi-billoinaires off of tax payer money.

Seems those that choose to exploit the conservative mindset have it more made.

Old Cardinal

07-12-2009, 09:40 PM

To Rockdale 80:

Just what would you replace Free Enterprise and American Capitalism with??

rockdale80

07-12-2009, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
To Rockdale 80:

Just what would you replace Free Enterprise and American Capitalism with??

I think that either a purely capitalist or socialistic approach is the wrong way to go. I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Capitalism with oversight.

SintonFan

07-13-2009, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by rockdale80
I think that either a purely capitalist or socialistic approach is the wrong way to go. I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Capitalism with oversight.
.
Do you really think we haven't had "Capitalism with oversight" for some time?
:eek: lol
I challenge you to tell me...
If the leaders in office right now can help enrich our American way of life(keeping with OUR WAY OF LIFE if that is acceptable to you)...
how can they do that?
You said the "answer lies somewhere in the middle"...
tell us your idea and don't change the subject. We are running out of time with the spending going on right now with your leaders! TELL US YOUR IDEA!
:)
Don't tell me about greed!!...
if you ever had more than one beer you just might be GREEDY. If you ever filled up your tank full of gas you might be GREEDY. Tell me just what is wrong with making sure your family is provided for(and your families' Grand kids). You have the same opportunity everyone else in THIS GREAT NATION to go out and provide for yourself and those you might want to help.
How dare the US Government tell those who achieve what they can and can not do!!!?
The position of those who believe that have way more in common with our enemies than with the tenets of what made this country the GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
But then again you don't see the good this country has done... only the bad...
Hence, why we must punish those who achieve and reward those who don't...
:):):)

Farmersfan

07-13-2009, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Corporations utilize more government handouts than the citizens do. You cant take stabs at the poor and promote captitalism when you consider where out tax money goes. The federal government spent $92 billion in direct and indirect subsidies to businesses and private- sector corporate entities — expenditures commonly referred to as "corporate welfare" — in fiscal year 2006. Sort of hard to promote capitalism when you have companines sucking on the government teat. ;)

There are plenty of rich people becoming multi-billoinaires off of tax payer money.

Seems those that choose to exploit the conservative mindset have it more made.

Corporations do utilize more government handouts than the citizens do. But there is a BIG difference between corporations and the average welfare reciepient in this country. Corporations help to provide for the American way of life. They give jobs. They enable many, many of us to provide for ourselves. To provide for our children. Millions on millions of Americans depend on these corporations. With all the negative (which is substantial) that comes with it we can at least see some positive from large Corporations. What positive can you see coming from the masses on welfare in this country? They provide NOTHING in return for their handout. They are 100% a drain on the public coffers. The handouts to them only encourage laziness and dependancy. So from my point of view a corporate handout is not a good thing but at least we can see a return on our investment. A handout to the welfare masses of this country is nothing but flushing resources down the drain........................

Aesculus gilmus

07-13-2009, 08:17 AM

No more public schools and no more public school-sponsored high school football or any other sport. Let the private sector form such leagues, if there is a demand for them.

"Free" public education is SOCIALISM!!!!!

Aesculus gilmus

07-13-2009, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
What positive can you see coming from the masses on welfare in this country? They provide NOTHING in return for their handout. T

Watch it, buddy. You're talking about quite a few of my Buckeyes here. They provide Friday night entertainment in return for their handout.

Farmersfan

07-13-2009, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Aesculus gilmus
No more public schools and no more public school-sponsored high school football or any other sport. Let the private sector form such leagues, if there is a demand for them.

"Free" public education is SOCIALISM!!!!!

Perhaps "Welfare" for some but not socialism! Anyone who owns a home pays for education so it's hardly free.

rockdale80

07-13-2009, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Perhaps "Welfare" for some but not socialism! Anyone who owns a home pays for education so it's hardly free.

Wrong. Public education is a socialistic ideal. You cant pick and choose programs to aid your position. Even if you dont have children you are paying for someone else's children to go to school. Very socialistic actually.

Companies that get these huge handouts also turn around and lay off employees in order to increase profits by outsourcing jobs to other countries. So the not only take money from tax payers they increase the likelihood of someone having to take government aid personally. Its not black and white like you so elegantly stated.

You are lumping the people that use welfare to get back on their feet and the people that abuse the sytem into one entity making your statement inaccurate. I do agree with you on the people that abuse the system, but I dont think helping out someone when they are down is "flushing money down the drain".

rockdale80

07-13-2009, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
Do you really think we haven't had "Capitalism with oversight" for some time?
:eek: lol
I challenge you to tell me...
If the leaders in office right now can help enrich our American way of life(keeping with OUR WAY OF LIFE if that is acceptable to you)...
how can they do that?
You said the "answer lies somewhere in the middle"...
tell us your idea and don't change the subject. We are running out of time with the spending going on right now with your leaders! TELL US YOUR IDEA!
:)
Don't tell me about greed!!...
if you ever had more than one beer you just might be GREEDY. If you ever filled up your tank full of gas you might be GREEDY. Tell me just what is wrong with making sure your family is provided for(and your families' Grand kids). You have the same opportunity everyone else in THIS GREAT NATION to go out and provide for yourself and those you might want to help.
How dare the US Government tell those who achieve what they can and can not do!!!?
The position of those who believe that have way more in common with our enemies than with the tenets of what made this country the GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
But then again you don't see the good this country has done... only the bad...
Hence, why we must punish those who achieve and reward those who don't...
:):):)

You are right...I have done and said nothing to support my position with fact and have changed the subject in a repeated attempt to dodge questions. I know what we have now, but to say we need to further deregulate, scrap any government assistance, and move to a completely free market is not viable. We have all seen what happens when the regulations on an industry are removed. Look at the petroleum industry with their lax oversight on the speculation and the banking industry with their non-existant standards for lending. You can chastise my position with the rhetoric of greed you placed above, but you know exactly what I am talking about. And to an extent I do think that greed in general terms of the people is an issue as well. People are not content with what they have.

This idea that the current administration is outspending the previous administration is absurd. I have also indicated this factually. Nevermind those pesky little things though. Just keep accusing the democrats in office of things they didnt do. Then again you may think that is me being negative when I am actually being a realist.

Good play with the punish of success card. That really moves the masses and gets the republicans blood boiling.

Old Cardinal

07-13-2009, 01:24 PM

The words of Thomas Jefferson are a stark reminder and warning: "A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have."

Today I would say:

Right Wing Extremist:

Jefferson

Adams

Madison

ME

PPHSfan

07-13-2009, 01:25 PM

Why not lay the blame on the bank failures who are bottom line at fault.

That's right. People who took out loans they couldn't afford to repay, and then didn't pay them.

That's right.

If Rockdale80 borrows a hundred dollars from me, knowing he can't pay it back, even if I knew it too, who's fault is it that the money is not back in my hands?

Farmersfan

07-13-2009, 03:45 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rockdale80
[B]Wrong. Public education is a socialistic ideal. You cant pick and choose programs to aid your position. Even if you dont have children you are paying for someone else's children to go to school. Very socialistic actually.

Sounds more like welfare to me! But you are correct because everything I read also classifies our school system as it is now to be socialism. But it also ranks our school system as being #25 in the top 30 developed countries on the planet. So naturally it stands to reason that we should advocate socialistic ideas in our government and healthcare system also................Right? After all, it works so well in other places.

rockdale80

07-13-2009, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Why not lay the blame on the bank failures who are bottom line at fault.

That's right. People who took out loans they couldn't afford to repay, and then didn't pay them.

That's right.

If Rockdale80 borrows a hundred dollars from me, knowing he can't pay it back, even if I knew it too, who's fault is it that the money is not back in my hands?

That wasnt the only issue and banks were also very misleading in their terms. That is why countrywide and AMC were successfully sued for predatory lending. ARM's were also manipulated as well as housing prices to mislead consumers. It wasnt just banks lending to unqualified applicants that led to the downfall. Nice analogy, but a completely unaccurate one.

rockdale80

07-13-2009, 04:40 PM

I have said for years that we should teach different trades in HS to prepare the non-college students to be ready to be a contributing citizen.

Aesculus gilmus

07-13-2009, 05:10 PM

So when do we close down the "free" (I know they're not really free; that's why I put it in quotes) public schools and call off football season?

This is Texas, dammit! No socialism allowed!!!!!!!

sinton66

07-13-2009, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
I have said for years that we should teach different trades in HS to prepare the non-college students to be ready to be a contributing citizen.

There are a number of school systems that do that. There are auto repair courses and such. Most schools teach basic computer skills through the BCIS classes. Biggest problem with this is most places that hire people want some formal education in the field, even auto mechanics. The Trade schools do a good job of that.

sinfan75

07-13-2009, 07:57 PM

So how does trashing the dollar sound to ya. Heard Russia introduced a new "world coin" at the G8 summit or want it to be the new world currency. And wasn't it nice of Al Gore (the jet fuel burnin global warming Hipocryt) to tell a group in England that if the USA passes it's climate bill it'll be the beginning of global governance on "climate change".:thinking:

rockdale80

07-13-2009, 09:37 PM

China already is on its way regardless of this bill. We allow them to undercut our prices with their lax labor laws and do nothing to keep American companies at home.

Farmersfan

07-14-2009, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by sinfan75
So how does trashing the dollar sound to ya. Heard Russia introduced a new "world coin" at the G8 summit or want it to be the new world currency. And wasn't it nice of Al Gore (the jet fuel burnin global warming Hipocryt) to tell a group in England that if the USA passes it's climate bill it'll be the beginning of global governance on "climate change".:thinking:

Isn't the first sign of the coming of the Anti-Christ the introduction of a world currency? I'm just sayin'!!!!!!!

Farmersfan

07-14-2009, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by rockdale80
China already is on its way regardless of this bill. We allow them to undercut our prices with their lax labor laws and do nothing to keep American companies at home.

China is on the verge of outgrowing itself. The point will come pretty soon when the majority of their resources will have to be turned inward just to maintain their infrastructure and their population. It will be a very, very bad day indeed when China becomes desperate and turns it's attention towards the rest of the world for help.....

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 10:10 AM

The problem is we give them hefty tax breaks but they still move operations to other countries. The overhead is still cheaper even with the tax breaks. As it is now, we are giving companies tax breaks and they are still moving on to greener pastures. We cant tell China what to do but we can tax their imports. That forces them to either lose capital or institue labor laws that even out their foreign price. Why not go after the companies that received tax benefits and still outsourced or moved jobs overseas?

BEAST

07-14-2009, 10:54 AM

Guys, I just read this AP article. It was far to long to copy over here so I just took a couple of paragraphs that trouble me. Here they are:

"House Democrats are moving ahead with sweeping health care legislation THAT WOULD TAX THE "WEALTHY" and REQUIRE Americans to buy "AFFORDABLE" insurance as Pres. Barak Obama prods a senate committee chairman to act quickly."

"The measure is expected to IMPOSE A FEE ON LARGE COMPANIES that fail to offer insurance, and INDIVIDUALS ALSO WOULD HAVE TO PAY A PENALTY IF THEY REFUSED TO PURCHASE THE INSURANCE."

Now, for those that do not think this administration is taking away our liberties, explain this. Since when is insurance a right? The gov't is going to force private business' to provide insurance whether they can afford it or want to.

BEAST

Blastoderm55

07-14-2009, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by BEAST

Now, for those that do not think this administration is taking away our liberties, explain this. Since when is insurance a right? The gov't is going to force private business' to provide insurance whether they can afford it or want to.

BEAST

What's the better alternative? Allowing people to repeatedly turn to ERs for non-emergency care with the knowledge that they cannot pay yet cannot be turned away? This is greatest damn country in the world, and to think that we cannot provide healthcare for honest, hard-working Americans is sickening. I'm not talking about welfare for the lazy masses who deplete the system. I'm talking about blue-collar men and women who are the backbone of this nation. The small business owners and employees who put their souls and faith into this abomination called Capitalism. How can they not have access to healthcare that would not bankrupt them?

BEAST

07-14-2009, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
What's the better alternative? Allowing people to repeatedly turn to ERs for non-emergency care with the knowledge that they cannot pay yet cannot be turned away? This is greatest damn country in the world, and to think that we cannot provide healthcare for honest, hard-working Americans is sickening. I'm not talking about welfare for the lazy masses who deplete the system. I'm talking about blue-collar men and women who are the backbone of this nation. The small business owners and employees who put their souls and faith into this abomination called Capitalism. How can they not have access to healthcare that would not bankrupt them?

I agree with you about this being the best damn country. Trust me, I am a small business owner, I do provide health care for all of my employees. However, we can never allow our freedoms to be taken away. Trust me when I tell you, this will cause some small business owners to let some employees go to be able to offset the cost of the insurance. Our gov't should not be allowed to force private citizens to buy this either. It said any individual that refuses to buy the insurance will be penalized. What will be forced down our throat next?

BEAST

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by BEAST
What will be forced down our throat next?

BEAST

Thats what she said!!! ;)

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 12:45 PM

Ok, enough is enough.

It's time for the left to stop blaming the right, the right to stop blaming the left, and the people of this country to stop blaming our leaders, the government, big business, and China, for our problems.

You wanna know why we're in such bad shape?

It's because the PEOPLE of this country are Lazy, Greedy, and Retarded.

That's right, I said it. We're so friggin lazy we don't even change our oil in our cars with a wrench and a drip pan anymore, we change it with a credit card. Instead of going outside and playing basketball, we play it while sitting on the couch with a video controller, a coke, and a bag of cheetos.

We're GREEDY because we don't "Save" our money we spend it faster than we earn it. Nobody in this country has ever lost a dime they "saved". People need to understand the difference between saving and investing. A 401k is an investment, not a savings account. If we had done like our grandparents told us to, and saved 15-20 percent of our money instead of being Greedy and wanting to make 20% in Mutual Funds we would all still have our money.

And we're Retarded because we think we are bigger faster stronger and smarter than everyone else in the world. Oh Really?. We're the snot nosed young punk country who thinks it knows everything at the ripe old age of 234, and refuse to learn from the older guys who have been around for thousands of years. Kinda like Rockdale80 thinking he knows more than Old Cardinal. We're Retarded because we do things like pay for meals with credit cards, take loans on houses that sell for ten times our annual income, and think we make better cars than the Japanese.

Wanna know why China owns everything in this country? Because for thousands of years the PEOPLE of China have worked and saved, and worked and saved, and now they are spending that money at discounted prices.

If the people of this country would just grow up, get off the couch, and stop acting like a bunch of pseudo intellectuals, our problems would solve themselves.

We wouldn't have a health-care crisis, if we all took better care of ourselves.
We wouldn't have a mortgage crisis is we didn't buy homes we couldn't afford.
We wouldn't have a banking crisis if we saved our money.
And we wouldn't have to blame our leaders, if we got up off our asses and started acting like adults.

ronwx5x

07-14-2009, 12:58 PM

Nah, that's too easy. We'd rather sit and gripe around a computer.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Ok, enough is enough.

It's time for the left to stop blaming the right, the right to stop blaming the left, and the people of this country to stop blaming our leaders, the government, big business, and China, for our problems.

You wanna know why we're in such bad shape?

It's because the PEOPLE of this country are Lazy, Greedy, and Retarded.

That's right, I said it. We're so friggin lazy we don't even change our oil in our cars with a wrench and a drip pan anymore, we change it with a credit card. Instead of going outside and playing basketball, we play it while sitting on the couch with a video controller, a coke, and a bag of cheetos.

We're GREEDY because we don't "Save" our money we spend it faster than we earn it. Nobody in this country has ever lost a dime they "saved". People need to understand the difference between saving and investing. A 401k is an investment, not a savings account. If we had done like our grandparents told us to, and saved 15-20 percent of our money instead of being Greedy and wanting to make 20% in Mutual Funds we would all still have our money.

And we're Retarded because we think we are bigger faster stronger and smarter than everyone else in the world. Oh Really?. We're the snot nosed young punk country who thinks it knows everything at the ripe old age of 234, and refuse to learn from the older guys who have been around for thousands of years. Kinda like Rockdale80 thinking he knows more than Old Cardinal. We're Retarded because we do things like pay for meals with credit cards, take loans on houses that sell for ten times our annual income, and think we make better cars than the Japanese.

Wanna know why China owns everything in this country? Because for thousands of years the PEOPLE of China have worked and saved, and worked and saved, and now they are spending that money at discounted prices.

If the people of this country would just grow up, get off the couch, and stop acting like a bunch of pseudo intellectuals, our problems would solve themselves.

We wouldn't have a health-care crisis, if we all took better care of ourselves.
We wouldn't have a mortgage crisis is we didn't buy homes we couldn't afford.
We wouldn't have a banking crisis if we saved our money.
And we wouldn't have to blame our leaders, if we got up off our asses and started acting like adults.

Yawn...back to the age game again. Sorry to everyone older than me that I disagree with. You guys are completely right and I know nothing because I am 28 and retarded. I am also lazy, so you can blame me for some other things too. I dont take care of myself, I dont save, and I sit on my ass and pretend to be psuedo intellectual. My apologies everyone....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Blastoderm55

07-14-2009, 01:38 PM

PPSTATEBOUND

07-14-2009, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Post of the year material right there.

TOTALLY AGREE.......:clap:

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Post of the year material right there.

Other than the part about older people knowing more than the younger folks strictly because of age. The part about healthcare, mortgages, banking and China also cannot be summed up that easily. Are people to blame, sure they are at fault too, but it wasnt all the fault of the consumer. Also, China has zero labor laws and sweatshops essentially. They are not in the position they currently hold because of "saving and working hard". You guys say it is point the finger, but it is actually trying to understand the mistakes that were made so they arent repeated. ;)

Farmersfan

07-14-2009, 01:57 PM

Great post. Nonsense but still great.
We live in reality land, not some fantasy land. It's not Americans thats the problem. It's the American way that is the problem. 200 years of success and abundance has trained us. After all it was people just like us that formed this country by the sweat of their brow. Any nationality that went through the kind of success this country has had would also be glutted like the calf ready for slaughter. Only some very, very hard times will change our mindset.

icu812

07-14-2009, 04:28 PM

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. I'd say we are heading from apathy to dependence. Nothing short of spiritual truth (which is the foundation for the constitution) will move the cycle back. The people at the tea parties are trying to move us back to the constitution but for most people its easier to vote for dependency on the government. A dose of bondage will cure that.

Txbroadcaster

07-14-2009, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by icu812
. The people at the tea parties are trying to move us back to the constitution but for most people its easier to vote for dependency on the government. A dose of bondage will cure that.

until there is a TRUE 3rd party movement and not want that one of the 2 parties latches on and takes as their own, then your right.

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by icu812
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. I'd say we are heading from apathy to dependence. Nothing short of spiritual truth (which is the foundation for the constitution) will move the cycle back. The people at the tea parties are trying to move us back to the constitution but for most people its easier to vote for dependency on the government. A dose of bondage will cure that.
bondage can arise from a multitude of reasons, even wage slavery when our standard of living is pitted against those of developing nations and we are asked (more of an ultimatum) to amend our requests for better pay and benefits. The forefathers never imagined the intricacies in play, capitalism and industrial capitalism are not one in the same. TNCorporations have done as much to dismantle little ma and pa shops and businesses as any tax levied on em and they operate from a position of power free from regulatory reign.

Seems like there has been a lot of reflection on how GREAT we used to be and what not, yet people don't connect the dots that as we transferred from industrial power to the information age, we have built tremendous wealth on the backs of others not Americans. That wealth has primarily remained in the hands of those with access to that power. Now while American manufacturing business and other lines of work still exist, OUR MIGHT was our INDUSTRY, it was what won WWII. IT wasn't that Americans were more suited to fighting than Germans, hell they were literrally bred for it. We were able to use our industrial might. 10 to their 1, blot out the sky with our planes and literally walk from England to France on boats. When globalization became possible through coordination. Much of what made Americans hard workers, THOSE jobs were gone. Detroit to the steel belt is all but rusted out. Now, one part of my car is made in asia, another in mexico another in canada and assembled in a plant in any one of those countries or here. Neo-liberal economic policies has done much to alter our economic landscape. Even after W's tax breaks, most of the jobs created were govt or govt funded private companies (MI complex etc).

waterboy

07-14-2009, 04:53 PM

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by waterboy
:clap: :clap: Now, ain't that the truth!:clap: :clap:

My opinion on socialism: No way it will ever work in this country. Socialism takes away an individual's liberties and drive to pursue happiness and a better life. It's elitism at its finest, and will separate the haves from the have-nots even further than it is now. Shredding our Constitution for socialistic ideas is not the path I want my children to have to go down. Hopefully, people will realize socialization is not the answer and stop it from happening before it's too late. socialism is all around you, even before premier Obama as you guys likely talk about him. And if capitalism was so fool proof how come after the cold war, more countries have adopted socialism as a safeguard to capitalism. We are the lone developed nation that still advocates FREE REIGN (which is obviously not the case).

icu812

07-14-2009, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
until there is a TRUE 3rd party movement and not want that one of the 2 parties latches on and takes as their own, then your right.

Regardless I believe the intent of most who are involved in tea parties is to return to the constitution and a literal interpretation of it. There is no viable 3rd party at the moment but I'd like to see one. If either party latches on and takes it as their own that is a good thing. However, at the moment I don't trust either one as both are taking us down the same road. The dems are just in the fast lane.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Yawn...back to the age game again. Sorry to everyone older than me that I disagree with. You guys are completely right and I know nothing because I am 28 and retarded. I am also lazy, so you can blame me for some other things too. I dont take care of myself, I dont save, and I sit on my ass and pretend to be psuedo intellectual. My apologies everyone....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yawn!!!

The only line you see in this post is about you not being

smarter than Old Card.

LOL, You crack me up.

Oh, And I'm right and you're wrong about China.

Aesculus gilmus

07-14-2009, 05:01 PM

DDBooger, I get what you are saying, but it's way too sophisticated an explanation for a 3A football board.

It's best to keep to slogans and name-calling. "Socialism" and "lib'ruls" are bad and have ruined everything. Only conservatives and Republicans are good. That's why they're so popular nationwide and have been winning one election after another lately.

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan

Oh, And I'm right and you're wrong about China. actually no, you are incredibly wrong about china lol it's actually their endless supply of labor at an UNCHALLENGEABLE rate of pay to make items for the west at a marked up price that has led to their tremendous wealth in the last 30-20 years. The softening up of Communist ideals to accept capitalism at the exploitation of their own people has benefited some portion of their class structure. Again, opening up of China has been globalization's best friend. A literal tinderbox of poverty and substandard living ready to work for pennies on the dollar for a few masters who have turned that profit into a global bank. They will face a dilemma when those people get just enough taste of what is possible and want a better life. That country has too much weight at the the bottom to live sustainably for far too long. The search for natural resources will lead to confrontation as those who are not working are conscripted into the military and used as fodder for the Chinese expansion. That may take some time however being that their Navy is really weak. but expansion by land may not be such a stretch.

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Aesculus gilmus
DDBooger, I get what you are saying, but it's way too sophisticated an explanation for a 3A football board.

It's best to keep to slogans and name-calling. "Socialism" and "lib'ruls" are bad and have ruined everything. Only conservatives and Republicans are good. That's why they're so popular nationwide and have been winning one election after another lately. One of globalization's biggest treaties was created by a Democrat (Clinton-NAFTA). They have both sealed our fates and made us dependent on a system that mires the truth and creates competition for Americans with 3rd world workers while those top tier owners own one company and are primary stock owners in the competition. They win either way.

icu812

07-14-2009, 05:14 PM

So if China would have stuck to their "Communist ideals" they could have continued living in heaven on earth. Geez capitalism just ruins it for everybody.

Txbroadcaster

07-14-2009, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by icu812
So if China would have stuck to their "Communist ideals" they could have continued living in heaven on earth. Geez capitalism just ruins it for everybody.

no..if China would have actually embraced capitalism on a whole scale then things would be fine..but the government allowing just enough capitalism that helps the government and the companies but keeps the citizens in slave wage structure is not helpful

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by icu812
So if China would have stuck to their "Communist ideals" they could have continued living in heaven on earth. Geez capitalism just ruins it for everybody.
1. didn't say that
2. it was their immensity that makes such a way of life impossible
3. Capitalism while it worked for a few of those who were in power as the transition began, it has not raised all out of poverty as imagined. In fact more people live in poverty in China then we have people. Again, China has used it's workers who are limited as to what they can demand for pay as exploited labor. It's industrial capitalism's dream! People working for pennies, with no rights to demand more or expect better. The bottom line is static while the profit continually increases.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
.....After all it was people just like us that formed this country by the sweat of their brow......

I disagree. The "people" that formed this country were Nothing like us.

They used credit to build business and industry, not to finance a lobster dinner that would find it's way back into the city water system and be drank again before it was paid for.

They used hard work and ingenuity to build things that could be used and exported, rather than using hard work and ingenuity to build bank accounts.

They feared God and tried to live Godly lives, so that others would see how great their lives were and want to join them. They didn't try to force Democracy and Christianity down the throats of others, and sell their religion door to door.

They took pride in what they built so that they could compete in a world market. They didn't assume that just because it was Made In America in was a superior product.

And when there was in issue over something that the crowd disagreed on, they took a vote, and the majority ruled. They didn't cater to the minority with tolerance and understanding.

And when their kids got out of line, they whipped their ass with a belt. They didn't put them in Time Out, or expect the school teacher to raise them.

icu812

07-14-2009, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by DDBooger
2. it was their immensity that makes such a way of life impossible

The Union of Socialist Republics of Texas would be awsome then!!

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by icu812
The Union of Socialist Republics of Texas would be awsome then!! LOL i realized some things have to be explained in a page by page hold your hand manner but this is hilarious. First of all Texas is a state not requiring a Union and Republics would indicate plurality when in fact, again, we are one state. IF your going to be facetious at least make your retorts somewhat understandable and not nonsensical.

No one is advocating socialism, but offering explanations aside from just silly talking points and pundit driven mysticism about "THE WAY IT WAS" LOL

icu812

07-14-2009, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by DDBooger
LOL i realized some things have to be explained in a page by page hold your hand manner but this is hilarious. First of all Texas is a state not requiring a Union and Republics would indicate plurality when in fact, again, we are one state. IF your going to be facetious at least make your retorts somewhat understandable and not nonsensical.

No one is advocating socialism, but offering explanations aside from just silly talking points and pundit driven mysticism about "THE WAY IT WAS" LOL

Union of Socialist Counties of Texas or just the Socialist Republic of Texas. Which do you prefer?

I like the Republic of Texas, you can keep the Socialist part.

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by icu812
Union of Socialist Counties of Texas or just the Socialist Republic of Texas. Which do you prefer?

I like the Republic of Texas, you can keep the Socialist part. And you can stay in your uninformed world and believe you know what your talking about! haha I didn't advocate a thing, but apparently if it involves an explanation you go back to what's safe. Why don't you just sing "AMERICA, **** YEAH!!!!" it's about as deep as any of your responses. ;)

Farmersfan

07-14-2009, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I disagree. The "people" that formed this country were Nothing like us.

They used credit to build business and industry, not to finance a lobster dinner that would find it's way back into the city water system and be drank again before it was paid for.

They used hard work and ingenuity to build things that could be used and exported, rather than using hard work and ingenuity to build bank accounts.

They feared God and tried to live Godly lives, so that others would see how great their lives were and want to join them. They didn't try to force Democracy and Christianity down the throats of others, and sell their religion door to door.

They took pride in what they built so that they could compete in a world market. They didn't assume that just because it was Made In America in was a superior product.

And when there was in issue over something that the crowd disagreed on, they took a vote, and the majority ruled. They didn't cater to the minority with tolerance and understanding.

And when their kids got out of line, they whipped their ass with a belt. They didn't put them in Time Out, or expect the school teacher to raise them.

It's amazing that you pick the BEST of what our forefathers did as an example of what kind of people they were and then pick the worst of today's people as an example of what kind of people we are. I seem to remember Slavery, Small Pox blankets and Witch hunts that more symbolize what kind of people we follow in this country. We have our problems now but they are small and insignificant compared to what has gone on historically in this country. We will recover from this economic downturn and come out the better for it. Many, many loopholes in our "Way of Life" will need to be closed first.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 05:58 PM

I like the Union of Socialist Counties.

Cause I'm a USC fan.:D

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
It's amazing that you pick the BEST of what our forefathers did as an example of what kind of people they were and then pick the worst of today's people as an example of what kind of people we are. I seem to remember Slavery, Small Pox blankets and Witch hunts that more symbolize what kind of people we follow in this country. We have our problems now but they are small and insignificant compared to what has gone on historically in this country. We will recover from this economic downturn and come out the better for it. Many, many loopholes in our "Way of Life" will need to be closed first.

So I take it you don't agree with me that as a nation, we are Greedy, Lazy, and Retarded?:p

Farmersfan

07-14-2009, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by icu812
Union of Socialist Counties of Texas or just the Socialist Republic of Texas. Which do you prefer?

I like the Republic of Texas, you can keep the Socialist part.

It's a good thought.

Republic of Texas for about a day.

North Mexico Territories the next.

(how would the US respond to a plea for protection from Mexico if we succeeded from the union?)

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
It's a good thought.

Republic of Texas for about a day.

North Mexico Territories the next.

(how would the US respond to a plea for protection from Mexico if we succeeded from the union?) with laughter

Farmersfan

07-14-2009, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
So I take it you don't agree with me that as a nation, we are Greedy, Lazy, and Retarded?:p

I agree 100% that we are greedy, lazy and retarded. But we aren't any more so than we always have been.

Our corporations take their manufactoring overseas to increase their profits.

200 years ago big business brought overseas labor to this country to increase their profits.

For every bad situation you can find today you can also find something in our past just as bad. Good ole' day syndrome is a common human trait.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I agree 100% that we are greedy, lazy and retarded. But we aren't any more so than we always have been.

Our corporations take their manufactoring overseas to increase their profits.

200 years ago big business brought overseas labor to this country to increase their profits.

For every bad situation you can find today you can also find something in our past just as bad. Good ole' day syndrome is a common human trait.

So can we agree then, that if tomorrow morning, each and every American;

Quit smoking, started exercising, and eating right.

Drove the speed limit, and was a courteous and friendly driver. Loaded six people in the Suburban or left it at home.

Put in a hard days work at something productive.

Didn't spend money they could not afford, and saved religiously.

Lived by the Golden Rule and was kind to everyone.

And did this each and every day, that....

In ten years time, we would no longer have a:

Health-Care Crisis
High Fuel Costs
Poverty
A High Crime Rate
or Unnecessary hate and discontent?:eek:

sinfan75

07-14-2009, 07:57 PM

I read an e-mail today and it pretty much makes sense about what 's goin on. Now this doesn't pertain to just this government now but also past governments. From wars to the economy and whatever else the government can control. Our national debt, our deficit everything they can control. But it it pretty much says we're ina war because the government wants to be in a war. We're ina recession because the government wants to be in a recession and so on. Just something that makes a lot of sense to me. Our government controls our lives alot more than people think.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Yawn!!!

The only line you see in this post is about you not being

smarter than Old Card.

LOL, You crack me up.

Oh, And I'm right and you're wrong about China.

Incorrect. You are trying to tell me I should believe everything someone says "blindly" because they are older than I am. Age doesnt mean wisdom as much as some of the older crowd insists it does. Not saying I dont respect Old Cards position, but I dont agree with it and have backed my reasonings with facts.

The mortgage and banking crisis was not only because of people purchasing homes they could not afford. There were several aspects of the lending process that were not the fault of the people. This included blatant inflation of home prices by appraisers, misleading mortgage terms, and banks loaning money to anyone with a pulse. It was not all the fault of the people and that is why so many banks were found guilty of inflating home prices and predatory lending in the name of scraping out a few bucks. The idea that it was only the fault of the purchaser is absurd. There were plenty of greedy corporations that made a ton of money by misleading buyers and then everyone bailed them out because of the rate of default.

I think a good portion of our nation is lazy, greedy, and retarded but that doesnt mean I dont think a good portion is hard working, fair, and intelligent. I think there are several components to consider when you look at where we were as a nation and where we are now. I also think it is extremely important to understand why we are where we are now so we dont make the same mistakes again.

And you are far from right about China.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Incorrect. You are trying to tell me I should believe everything someone says "blindly" because they are older than I am. Age doesnt mean wisdom as much as some of the older crowd insists it does. Not saying I dont respect Old Cards position, but I dont agree with it and have backed my reasonings with facts.

The mortgage and banking crisis was not only because of people purchasing homes they could not afford. There were several aspects of the lending process that were not the fault of the people. This included blatant inflation of home prices by appraisers, misleading mortgage terms, and banks loaning money to anyone with a pulse. It was not all the fault of the people and that is why so many banks were found guilty of inflating home prices and predatory lending in the name of scraping out a few bucks. The idea that it was only the fault of the purchaser is absurd. There were plenty of greedy corporations that made a ton of money by misleading buyers and then everyone bailed them out because of the rate of default.

I think a good portion of our nation is lazy, greedy, and retarded but that doesnt mean I dont think a good portion is hard working, fair, and intelligent. I think there are several components to consider when you look at where we were as a nation and where we are now. I also think it is extremely important to understand why we are where we are now so we dont make the same mistakes again.

And you are far from right about China.

You're putting words in my mouth about the "young" thing.

And you can rant and rave all you want about the mortgage crisis, but the bottom line is simple. People borrowed money they knew they could not afford to pay. If they were to stupid to read the contract before signing it, then they Deserve to lose their home. Too many people making 60K a year for some retarded reason thought they could afford a 300 thousand dollar home. How stupid is that?

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 09:11 PM

Also,

I'm getting tired of people screaming "we're losing our home"

It's not THEIR home, it's the mortgage company's home.

Most got in three to five years ago on an ARM and have been living in a house for three years at half of what the RENT would be... until NOW. Surprise surprise!!!! They thought they could live in a 300k dollar home for 900.00 dollars a month for ever? Give me a break. They're not losing their homes. They are getting evicted.

icu812

07-14-2009, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by DDBooger
And you can stay in your uninformed world and believe you know what your talking about! haha I didn't advocate a thing, but apparently if it involves an explanation you go back to what's safe. Why don't you just sing "AMERICA, **** YEAH!!!!" it's about as deep as any of your responses. ;)

I'm just having some fun with some light banter. As far as being uninformed I read about as much as I can on many subjects both political and historical. But since I run a business and have a family my time is limited so I'll admit I don't know everything. Enlighten me, if you were starting a county what type of government would you advocate?

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 09:27 PM

Pick6

07-14-2009, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Don't know about Booger, but if I were starting a country, I would want to be KING!

Most likely he'd want to be your Queen :D

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by icu812
I'm just having some fun with some light banter. As far as being uninformed I read about as much as I can on many subjects both political and historical. But since I run a business and have a family my time is limited so I'll admit I don't know everything. Enlighten me, if you were starting a county what type of government would you advocate? wouldn't matter, in today's world you are either part of the globalized economy or you languish in isolation from those who control trade worldwide. The question itself is absurd, a nation just starting out would be out of some existing nation or union or like Iraq as a result of another countries destabilizing war. That being said, those nations who operated w/o the direct help of the U.S. and/or WTO/IMF have seen far better results in developing a capitalism that maintains a human conscience rather than one who serves the transnational corporation and the governments protection of it through laws that perceive it as an entity, albeit sociopathic one.

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Pick6
Most likely he'd want to be your Queen :D Would that be attractive to you, a man dressed as a queen? ;) lmao

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Don't know about Booger, but if I were starting a country, I would want to be KING! want to start a country together? Put me in charge of TNA regulation. :cool:

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by DDBooger
want to start a country together? Put me in charge of TNA regulation. :cool:

OK, but MY picture goes on the currency.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 09:35 PM

One rule Booger. We won't have a law against "illegal" immigration. Anyone who wants to work is welcome, and anyone who doesn't has to leave.:D

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
One rule Booger. We won't have a law against "illegal" immigration. Anyone who wants to work is welcome, and anyone who doesn't has to leave.:D :thumbsup:

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
One rule Booger. We won't have a law against "illegal" immigration. Anyone who wants to work is welcome, and anyone who doesn't has to leave.:D we can let America fight our wars, we'll be the 2nd Costa Rica. Jimmy Buffet will be Sec of State.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
You're putting words in my mouth about the "young" thing.

And you can rant and rave all you want about the mortgage crisis, but the bottom line is simple. People borrowed money they knew they could not afford to pay. If they were to stupid to read the contract before signing it, then they Deserve to lose their home. Too many people making 60K a year for some retarded reason thought they could afford a 300 thousand dollar home. How stupid is that?

I am not putting words in your mouth. Everything in your paragraph indicated that I had a young punk mentality because I didnt agree with Old Card.

It is NOT that simple I assure you. I work in the mortgage industry and know this to be untrue in most cases. Mortgage companies were paying appraisers to inflate home values and the terms of their mortgage were so misleading that reading it would have done little good to no good. Hell, people even had lawyers read the terms and they were so misleading that even they thought it was okay to sign. This meant when their mortgage payment went up people couldnt sell the home because they still owed more than the actual price of the home.

I agree that some people did over extend themselves with their home, but that isnt the case across the board. There were several underhand manuevers by the banks that helped lead to this fiasco. My dad always told me to "live within your means" and I think that motto would serve everyone well so I agree with you on that front, but when discussing mortgages it isnt always that easy.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 09:42 PM

This meant when their mortgage payment went up people couldnt sell the home because they still owed more than the actual price of the home.

So what's your point? They only lived in the house for a few years and had no equity in the home. They paid less per month than they were paying in rent, and they act like they're losing something. Let the Mortgage company have the house. End of story. The "crooked" mortgage company get's caught holding the bag, not the consumer.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by DDBooger
we can let America fight our wars, we'll be the 2nd Costa Rica. Jimmy Buffet will be Sec of State.

OK, as long as they don't try to shove Democracy down our throats. Or Christianity. I want to be KING. The people can choose whichever God they wish to worship, as long as they work and entertain the KING!

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 09:46 PM

I am not putting words in your mouth. Everything in your paragraph indicated that I had a young punk mentality because I didnt agree with Old Card.

No, my paragraph was talking about how the country is young. You were only used as an example to solidify my point. But you're too stuck on yourself to see the difference.

Everyone here, except YOU can see that.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
No, my paragraph was talking about how the country is young. You were only used as an example to solidify my point. But you're too stuck on yourself to see the difference.

Everyone here, except YOU can see that.

Originally posted by PPHSfan
We're the snot nosed young punk country who thinks it knows everything at the ripe old age of 234, and refuse to learn from the older guys who have been around for thousands of years. Kinda like Rockdale80 thinking he knows more than Old Cardinal.

I am not twisting words here. I posted your statement again as a refresher. I am far from stuck on myself, but I can connect the dots. I am a young punk that thinks I know it all and refuse to learn from old card who has been here for thousands of years? That is essentially what you get gramatically when you liken the two. At any rate it isnt that important and I dont take things posted on a message board that personal.

And the point is consumers were mislead and you think it is okay. They were under the pretense that they WERE building equity then had the rug ripped out from under them. Why buy a home if you plan on renting?

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 10:14 PM

And the point is consumers were mislead and you think it is okay. They were under the pretense that they WERE building equity then had the rug ripped out from under them. Why buy a home if you plan on renting?

You just don't get it do you?

Who in their right mind thinks that they can buy a 300 thousand dollar home for 900 dollars a month? Pretense SCHMetens,

Here is what happened. The "consumers" were greedy, and thought for some reason the mortgage companies had lost their minds. They KNEW going in that the payment was going to go up, and they figured they would skate by for 3-5 and live in a nice neighborhood for a third of the price they should be paying, and then get out when the payment went up. Some were even naive enough to believe they would be able to afford it later, as if they planned on tripling their income in three years. LOL

The only losers in this so called "mortgage crisis" are the folks who could afford these nicer homes, watching their neighborhoods go to hell, as the grass starts to grow in all of the vacant homes.

Old Cardinal

07-14-2009, 10:15 PM

BO--Pelosi--Reid The Axis of Taxes

I listed the Federal Government as a dependent on my taxes this year.

To BO: Read my teleprompter--NO New Bailouts

:rolleyes:

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Old Cardinal

....I listed the Federal Government as a dependent on my taxes this year.....

:D :clap:

icu812

07-14-2009, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Mortgage companies were paying appraisers to inflate home values

I work in this industry and there are very, very few appraisers who would risk their source of income for a couple hundred extra bucks. What did happen was mortgage brokers simply would not send work to good appraisers who did there job. There are bad appraisers, however, appraisers in general are not a part of the problem. Follow the $ and you'll find the problem. Unfortunately you won't find many rich appraisers. Herb and Marion Sandler (who I worked for about 15 yrs. ago) are rich. Do quick search on this pair, look who they support and where their $ goes. Find the FNMA policies and government programs that made this possible. There is the source.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
You just don't get it do you?

Who in their right mind thinks that they can buy a 300 thousand dollar home for 900 dollars a month? Pretense SCHMetens,

Here is what happened. The "consumers" were greedy, and thought for some reason the mortgage companies had lost their minds. They KNEW going in that the payment was going to go up, and they figured they would skate by for 3-5 and live in a nice neighborhood for a third of the price they should be paying, and then get out when the payment went up. Some were even naive enough to believe they would be able to afford it later, as if they planned on tripling their income in three years. LOL

The only losers in this so called "mortgage crisis" are the folks who could afford these nicer homes, watching their neighborhoods go to hell, as the grass starts to grow in all of the vacant homes.

It isnt that simple and I have tried to explain it. I am not sure where I am losing you. There were many factors other than credit score that affected lending. Mortgage brokers in some cases received incentives from lenders to offer subprime ARM's even to those with credit ratings that merited a conforming loan. People were lured in with teaser rates and such. The appraisers were also paid employees of the bank and had no direct regulation. A 150k home was being sold at 180k and the buyer couldnt get rid of the home when the 6% rate increase tripled their mortgage payment. There were also misleading terms in other mortgages like "ninja loans or ghost loans" and "payment option" loans. Also, mortgage brokers were offered incentives to offer ARM's to people with high enough credit scores to qualify for prime loans in an effort to sleight them into more profitable loan to the bank, and underwriting standards declined tremendously. Loans were being made without proper documentation and review and people were being approved automatically. Credit rating agencies are now under scrutiny for having given investment-grade ratings to MBSs based on risky subprime mortgage loans. These high ratings enabled these MBS to be sold to investors, thereby financing the housing boom. These ratings were believed justified because of risk reducing practices, such as credit default insurance and equity investors willing to bear the first losses. However, there are also indications that some involved in rating subprime-related securities knew at the time that the rating process was faulty. I understand you want to quantify it as greed at a personal level, but it was greed at the corporate level as well that led to this. The banks, credit agencies, underwriters, appraisers, and people are all to blame for this fiasco. The sad part is people like me (and most likely you) that have never taken a handout short of a public education are left footing the bill. In principle, yes it was greed but not as simplified as you put. Comprende?;)

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by icu812
I work in this industry and there are very, very few appraisers who would risk their source of income for a couple hundred extra bucks. What did happen was mortgage brokers simply would not send work to good appraisers who did there job. There are bad appraisers, however, appraisers in general are not a part of the problem. Follow the $ and you'll find the problem. Unfortunately you won't find many rich appraisers. Herb and Marion Sandler (who I worked for about 15 yrs. ago) are rich. Do quick search on this pair, look who they support and where their $ goes. Find the FNMA policies and government programs that made this possible. There is the source.

Perhaps few now, but there was a time when appraisers were offered incentives by the mortgage companies to inflate home prices. I know this to be true. Not a stab at you or your profession, but this did take place.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 10:55 PM

My problem is you acting as though the mortgage companies screwed the consumer some how, and that just isn't true. It doesn't matter if the values were inflated. These people have NO EQUITY in the home anyway. You make it seem as though they got ripped off because they can't sell their home they RENTED for three years. That doesn't make any sense. Besides, inflated values are a drop in the bucket compared the the ACTUAL decline in value over the past year.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
My problem is you acting as though the mortgage companies screwed the consumer some how, and that just isn't true. It doesn't matter if the values were inflated. These people have NO EQUITY in the home anyway. You make it seem as though they got ripped off because they can't sell their home they RENTED for three years. That doesn't make any sense. Besides, inflated values are a drop in the bucket compared the the ACTUAL decline in value over the past year.

It is a rip off. If I am dedicating my income to something because I think I am buying it and building equity only to find out that I am only leasing it then I essentially lost money. 3-5 years of mortgage, a down payment, and closing cost is not a small sum of money. I am not sure how you think this is acceptable business practice. That is money the consumer thought was going to equity, not rent. Not sure how you chalk this up to no loss to the consumer.

PPHSfan

07-14-2009, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
It is a rip off. If I am dedicating my income to something because I think I am buying it and building equity only to find out that I am only leasing it then I essentially lost money. 3-5 years of mortgage, a down payment, and closing cost is not a small sum of money. I am not sure how you think this is acceptable business practice. That is money the consumer thought was going to equity, not rent. Not sure how you chalk this up to no loss to the consumer.

Which brings me back to my original argument. Anyone thinking they could buy a 300 thousand dollar home for 900 dollars a month is a retard, and had no business owning a home. They KNEW the payment would go up, and they KNEW they would not be able to afford it. They were trying to live in a nice neighborhood for one third the price of RENT. If you can't understand this, then I'm losing faith in your grey matter, that usually impresses me.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Which brings me back to my original argument. Anyone thinking they could buy a 300 thousand dollar home for 900 dollars a month is a retard, and had no business owning a home. They KNEW the payment would go up, and they KNEW they would not be able to afford it. They were trying to live in a nice neighborhood for one third the price of RENT. If you can't understand this, then I'm losing faith in your grey matter, that usually impresses me.

Agree to disagree. We are going in circles and I have tried explaining it. It isnt as simple as people wanting to live in nice neighborhoods or being greedy and thinking interest rates wouldnt go up.

TexasHSFB

07-14-2009, 11:15 PM

I've been feenin to reply to this thread.

Rockdale80.... sorry dude, but everything you say is crazy.

DD, you might be just as crazy but you sure do say it like you know what you're talking about. :p :)

Ah, hell.... lemme stay away. I'm not old, haven't traveled much.... and well, I'm not old..... so my actual opinions mean nothing. :cool:

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
I've been feenin to reply to this thread.

Rockdale80.... sorry dude, but everything you say is crazy.

DD, you might be just as crazy but you sure do say it like you know what you're talking about. :p :)

Ah, hell.... lemme stay away. I'm not old, haven't traveled much.... and well, I'm not old..... so my actual opinions mean nothing. :cool:

Ok, so put me in my place. :) I may not be as elegant with words as DD, but that doesnt mean I dont know what I am talking about.

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
I've been feenin to reply to this thread.

Rockdale80.... sorry dude, but everything you say is crazy.

DD, you might be just as crazy but you sure do say it like you know what you're talking about. :p :)

Ah, hell.... lemme stay away. I'm not old, haven't traveled much.... and well, I'm not old..... so my actual opinions mean nothing. :cool: What's scary is people are willfully ignorant as long as their side wins the election.

TexasHSFB

07-14-2009, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Ok, so put me in my place. :) I may not be as elegant with words as DD, but that doesnt mean I dont know what I am talking about. DD never said something this ignorant:

Originally posted by rockdale80
Look, I have no issue with people opposing corporate bailouts, but dont play the blame Obama game unless he is directly to blame. People say he is the reason for these handouts, but bailouts have been historically republican and the bulk of the most recent ones are no different. I understand Bush is gone and I am happy for that, but that doesn't undo what was done, unless Obama can undo $850 billion handed out under the Bush adminstration. So going from there how do you blame all of the "socialism" on the democrats or Obama?

Socialism isn't just "bailouts" and I think you should take a look at the numbers of "bailout" money distributed between the two and then re-think this post.

TexasHSFB

07-14-2009, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by DDBooger
What's scary is people are willfully ignorant as long as their side wins the election. I understand what you're saying, but I'm lost as to what exactly you referring to when you replied to me. :confused: :thinking:

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
I understand what you're saying, but I'm lost as to what exactly you referring to when you replied to me. :confused: :thinking: not you in particular, as a young man, all I can tell you is never quench your thirst for knowledge, EVER.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
DD never said something this ignorant:

Socialism isn't just "bailouts" and I think you should take a look at the numbers of "bailout" money distributed between the two and then re-think this post.

:confused: :confused:

Please explain.

TexasHSFB

07-14-2009, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by DDBooger
not you in particular, as a young man, all I can tell you is never quench your thirst for knowledge, EVER. Ha... well. I like to keep up with the news/etc.

I like to watch fox.... but I think Hannity is a little too "out there" for my taste. I also try to catch some CNN to see the reverse side of the story. Same thing with Savage. Dude's a nut. I like Limbaugh alot more... although he's a little wild for my taste as well.

In regards to Franken..... man. What were the people thinking and how did he even cheat enough votes his way to get elected anyway?

I have a natural dislike for Obama but I'm trying my best to see the good he's done as well.

TexasHSFB

07-14-2009, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
:confused: :confused:

Please explain. I just think your liberal tunnel vision is funny.

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
Ha... well. I like to keep up with the news/etc.

I like to watch fox.... but I think Hannity is a little too "out there" for my taste. I also try to catch some CNN to see the reverse side of the story. Same thing with Savage. Dude's a nut. I like Limbaugh alot more... although he's a little wild for my taste as well.

In regards to Franken..... man. What were the people thinking and how did he even cheat enough votes his way to get elected anyway?

I have a natural dislike for Obama but I'm trying my best to see the good he's done as well. every guy and news org. you named is punditry and sided. LOL try books, ck statements. You just described the LAZY way

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
Ha... well. I like to keep up with the news/etc.

I like to watch fox.... but I think Hannity is a little too "out there" for my taste. I also try to catch some CNN to see the reverse side of the story. Same thing with Savage. Dude's a nut. I like Limbaugh alot more... although he's a little wild for my taste as well.

In regards to Franken..... man. What were the people thinking and how did he even cheat enough votes his way to get elected anyway?

I have a natural dislike for Obama but I'm trying my best to see the good he's done as well.

He hasnt done much good yet, but my opinion is yet to be determined. Franken didnt cheat and is actually a relatively smart individual. My advice it to take what you see on Fox, CNN, or any other news outlet and then research it. Every single one of them puts a spin on it, especially when you listen to the talking heads. There is more to every issue than you will hear on TV...in most cases.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
I just think your liberal tunnel vision is funny.

Ok, tell me where I was wrong in that statement.

TexasHSFB

07-14-2009, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Ok, tell me where I was wrong in that statement. Ah, idon't feel like making the effort to go back and quote, but I liked how you said (maybe in another post) that we shouldn't play the blame game, then proceeded to blame Bush and tell people to not blame Obama. If I was going to blame anyone, it would be the Senate.

Bailouts have been historically Republican?

And as far as actual numbers go, just look at the federal bailouts in the last 6 months compared to Bush's 8 years.... or hell.... since the depression.

I really like how you point out where Bush had 850 bil in spending but you refuse to point out Obama has nearly matched that in a few months.

Franken didn't cheat? How do you mysteriously find 40 something votes in the trunk of a woman's car and they all just happen to be for one candidate?

DD, I really don't like to read, but you can't tell me that books aern't opinions too.

I'm 18, I don't have too much desire to be totally hungry for knowledge. I've got enough college crap on my mind for now.

DDBooger

07-14-2009, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by TexasHSFB

DD, I really don't like to read, but you can't tell me that books aern't opinions too.

Originally posted by DDBooger
ck statements.

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
I'm 18, I don't have too much desire to be totally hungry for knowledge. I've got enough college crap on my mind for now. then you'll continue the mental masturbation that the media promotes.

rockdale80

07-14-2009, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by TexasHSFB
Ah, idon't feel like making the effort to go back and quote, but I liked how you said (maybe in another post) that we shouldn't play the blame game, then proceeded to blame Bush and tell people to not blame Obama. If I was going to blame anyone, it would be the Senate.

Bailouts have been historically Republican?

And as far as actual numbers go, just look at the federal bailouts in the last 6 months compared to Bush's 8 years.... or hell.... since the depression.

I really like how you point out where Bush had 850 bil in spending but you refuse to point out Obama has nearly matched that in a few months.

Franken didn't cheat? How do you mysteriously find 40 something votes in the trunk of a woman's car and they all just happen to be for one candidate?

DD, I really don't like to read, but you can't tell me that books aern't opinions too.

I'm 18, I don't have too much desire to be totally hungry for knowledge. I've got enough college crap on my mind for now.

With arguments like that it is hard for me to argue. You win. ;)

Farmersfan

07-15-2009, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by rockdale80
It is a rip off. If I am dedicating my income to something because I think I am buying it and building equity only to find out that I am only leasing it then I essentially lost money. 3-5 years of mortgage, a down payment, and closing cost is not a small sum of money. I am not sure how you think this is acceptable business practice. That is money the consumer thought was going to equity, not rent. Not sure how you chalk this up to no loss to the consumer.

I think I agree with a lot of what you say here. I also have a big issue with the idea of PMI. A person purchases a home and is FORCED to pay extra for insurance to protect the Mortgage company from loss if the loan is for more than 80% of the total. After 10 years the Mortgage company forecloses the home, sells it in an auction for 80% of it's (then) market value and writes it off as a loss and reports it on your credit report. The 10 years of PMI was in place to prevent a loss by the mortgage company so the foreclosure should not have hurt them. From your inside experience with this what would you say justifies this? Is PMI an actual insurance payment made to a outside company or is it additional income that stays with the loan servicer????

Old Cardinal

07-15-2009, 11:55 AM

I have enjoyed re-reading this whole set of comments.

For me it is really great to see PPHS and others with a whole lot of maturity gained through the years. Of course we will not all agree but that is the nature of political discussion. LOL

I enjoy an 18 year old like Rockdale 80 putting his ideas forward.....He probably reasons like most of us "antiques" did when we were 18 also.

I do think we are in serious trouble as a nation and am seriously concerned. Pray for the USA: we are headed down a tangent path and need to reset both our compass and our gyroscope....;)

rockdale80

07-15-2009, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
I have enjoyed re-reading this whole set of comments.

For me it is really great to see PPHS and others with a whole lot of maturity gained through the years. Of course we will not all agree but that is the nature of political discussion. LOL

I enjoy an 18 year old like Rockdale 80 putting his ideas forward.....He probably reasons like most of us "antiques" did when we were 18 also.

I do think we are in serious trouble as a nation and am seriously concerned. Pray for the USA: we are headed down a tangent path and need to reset both our compass and our gyroscope....;)

I love how the older generation chalks up dissent to age... My hope is to get old enough to know what I am talking about one day. I mean this nonsensical position supported with facts is ridiculous. ;)

Old Cardinal

07-15-2009, 01:39 PM

I would have responded with a caustic remark also when I was 18 ....

Chalk it up to age(for both of us)..and that's alright! :D

TexasHSFB

07-15-2009, 01:46 PM

I think someone deleted my last post? I thought i replied to DD.

:confused:

Maybe I was dreaming.

Oh well, DD, I'll watch what they spew and come up with my own opinions about the matters at hand.... for now anyway.

carter08

07-15-2009, 01:51 PM

i like the idea behind socialism, and in a perfect world, i'd be all for it.

but, people suck. so it isn't gonna work.

that said, PEOPLE SUCK, and i would rather have some government regulation in places like banking and health care than let some selfish people run the industries into the ground.

rockdale80

07-15-2009, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
I would have responded with a caustic remark also when I was 18 ....

Chalk it up to age(for both of us)..and that's alright! :D

But it would have been chiseled into stone because computers were a far fetched dream. No caustic remark. Just pointing out the flaw to your statement. Keep chalking it up to age though... ;)

Old Cardinal

07-15-2009, 02:04 PM

To Rocldale80: I would appreciate your response to these statements; just for us "antiques" to get a better idea of the-- pulse--of your generation.
~~~~~~
The Demos think that the standard of living of the masses can be improved by destroying the most productive people who are the biggest generators of USA wealth.

also,
Capitalism is not dead but it is under major attack at our highest levels of government.
~~~~~~

Thank you Rockdale80 for sharing your insights.

rockdale80

07-15-2009, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
To Rocldale80: I would appreciate your response to these statements; just for us "antiques" to get a better idea of the-- pulse--of your generation.
~~~~~~
The Demos think that the standard of living of the masses can be improved by destroying the most productive people who are the biggest generators of USA wealth.

also,
Capitalism is not dead but it is under major attack at our highest levels of government.
~~~~~~

Thank you Rockdale80 for sharing your insights.

wowser...guess you have read nothing I have written...ever....

rockdale80

07-15-2009, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
wowser...guess you have read nothing I have written...ever....

Do you think that capitalism had anything to do with the mortgage fiasco? Or was it all consumer greed? Did deregulation on lending practices have any effect on what happened?

pirate4state

07-15-2009, 02:36 PM

Hey RD80 what's it like to be 18 again?!?

rockdale80

07-15-2009, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by pirate4state
Hey RD80 what's it like to be 18 again?!?

Its like heaven having a shot at all the same age girls!!! :)

Old Cardinal

07-15-2009, 03:27 PM

I am sorry Rockdale80: I was asking you to elaborate on those two specific statements.....Thank you

rockdale80

07-15-2009, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
I am sorry Rockdale80: I was asking you to elaborate on those two specific statements.....Thank you

I would rather you explain your position since I have explained and elaborted on mine more than once. You have done nothing but offer your opinions and have used no facts to support anything you have stated. Tell me how the democrats are destroying the most productive people and the biggest generators of wealth? Also, I would like to know how capitalism is under attack by the highest levels of our government.

Phantom Stang

07-15-2009, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Not saying I dont respect Old Cards position, but I dont agree with it and have backed my reasonings with facts.

Facts are too easily cherry picked and manipulated to fully substantiate any argument about a complex subject.;)

Maybe you'll realize that when you're older.:p

rockdale80

07-15-2009, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Phantom Stang
Facts are too easily cherry picked and manipulated to fully substantiate any argument about a complex subject.;)

Maybe you'll realize that when you're older.:p

Feel free to jump in anytime with something more than opinion. I havent cherry picked any facts to support my position and I think that has been evident in my exchanges. The problem is actually people not agreeing with what I have stated because their opinion differs. :D

icu812

07-15-2009, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
It isnt that simple and I have tried to explain it. I am not sure where I am losing you. There were many factors other than credit score that affected lending. Mortgage brokers in some cases received incentives from lenders to offer subprime ARM's even to those with credit ratings that merited a conforming loan. People were lured in with teaser rates and such. The appraisers were also paid employees of the bank and had no direct regulation. A 150k home was being sold at 180k and the buyer couldnt get rid of the home when the 6% rate increase tripled their mortgage payment. There were also misleading terms in other mortgages like "ninja loans or ghost loans" and "payment option" loans. Also, mortgage brokers were offered incentives to offer ARM's to people with high enough credit scores to qualify for prime loans in an effort to sleight them into more profitable loan to the bank, and underwriting standards declined tremendously. Loans were being made without proper documentation and review and people were being approved automatically. Credit rating agencies are now under scrutiny for having given investment-grade ratings to MBSs based on risky subprime mortgage loans. These high ratings enabled these MBS to be sold to investors, thereby financing the housing boom. These ratings were believed justified because of risk reducing practices, such as credit default insurance and equity investors willing to bear the first losses. However, there are also indications that some involved in rating subprime-related securities knew at the time that the rating process was faulty. I understand you want to quantify it as greed at a personal level, but it was greed at the corporate level as well that led to this. The banks, credit agencies, underwriters, appraisers, and people are all to blame for this fiasco. The sad part is people like me (and most likely you) that have never taken a handout short of a public education are left footing the bill. In principle, yes it was greed but not as simplified as you put. Comprende?;)

I agree with most of that. Preditory lenders offering terrible loan programs such as the "pick a payment" loan program in which borrowers were only paying interest is an example. These loans allowed people to get into homes they couldn't afford. However, it does not address the source of the problem. Poor legislation such as the Community Reinvestment Act, FIRREA and others is the cause. This allowed pressure to make loans to all financial segments of the population to be applied by groups such as ACORN and others. In my other post I talked about the Sandlers who sold Golden West Financial to Wachovia for Billions. They in turn contributed 1.3 Billion to the Sandler Foundation which supports groups like Acorn and the Center for American Progress (John Pedesta's organization). The Sandlers started the "pick a payment" loan program. What a mess. At one time Golden West Finanical (World Savings & Loan) kept all their loans in house and didn't sell them on the secondary market. They ran a tight ship and made good loans to credit worthy borrowers. Now they are the poster children of preditory lending. SNL even did a skit on them.

Old Cardinal

07-15-2009, 09:37 PM

To Rockdale80:

Just a short discussion on the comments you made about your age group developing the Computer.

You may find this interesting, I don't know. When I graduated from High School in 1959, I started college and took computer classes learning Cobalt, Fortran, and other type computer programming language.

Back then the stationary Computers were giants and the rooms were 95+degrees F.
The wing where a Computer was located had three or more window ACs trying to cool the hundreds of hot "Tubes" glowing in the room.

It was my generation that developed the computer equipment and programming --in the 60s and 70s.
Some of our brightest toward the late 70s then developed the Personal Computer. Your generation is the recipients of all of this empirical springboard knowledge that now puts your PC in your lap.

Yes, quantum leaps by my son's age group(early forties) are still the brains doing the giant strides on PC actuation.

You might be proficient in your PCs USE but it was made simple to operate by several generations before you came along.

Your time to be inventive will come after you get an education. We are all excited as to what your age group will invent on down the way.

rockdale80

07-15-2009, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Old Cardinal
To Rockdale80:

Just a short discussion on the comments you made about your age group developing the Computer.

You may find this interesting, I don't know. When I graduated from High School in 1959, I started college and took computer classes learning Cobalt, Fortran, and other type computer programming language.

Back then the stationary Computers were giants and the rooms were 95+degrees F.
The wing where a Computer was located had three or more window ACs trying to cool the hundreds of hot "Tubes" glowing in the room.

It was my generation that developed the computer equipment and programming --in the 60s and 70s.
Some of our brightest toward the late 70s then developed the Personal Computer. Your generation is the recipients of all of this empirical springboard knowledge that now puts your PC in your lap.

Yes, quantum leaps by my son's age group(early forties) are still the brains doing the giant strides on PC actuation.

You might be proficient in your PCs USE but it was made simple to operate by several generations before you came along.

Your time to be inventive will come after you get an education. We are all excited as to what your age group will invent on down the way.

I was just ribbing you. No need for a lecture;)

crabman

07-15-2009, 11:14 PM

The problem with the whole mortgage crisis is also what makes America so great. Free Enterprise. The lenders were incentivized to make loans and by God they made them. The Brokers were incetivized to hook up borrowers and lenders and by God they did. Borrowers were incentivized to borrow as much as they could and by God they did. Insurance companies were incentivized to come up with new debt instruments and insurance to help cover the risk. Everything was Free Enterprise and it worked. One of the downfalls of Capitalism is that there is failure and failure must be allowed to happen to correct the market. No one is allowing anything to fail anymore. The other problem with unabated Free Enterprise in complex issues like this is that the smart people are doing business and coming up with scenarios quicker than regulators can figure it out. Be honest, if the governmental regulators were smart they wouldn't be working for the government. The free market will always be one step ahead of the regulations.

SintonFan

07-15-2009, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
I know what we have now, but to say we need to further deregulate, scrap any government assistance, and move to a completely free market is not viable. We have all seen what happens when the regulations on an industry are removed. Look at the petroleum industry with their lax oversight on the speculation and the banking industry with their non-existant standards for lending. You can chastise my position with the rhetoric of greed you placed above, but you know exactly what I am talking about. And to an extent I do think that greed in general terms of the people is an issue as well. People are not content with what they have.

This idea that the current administration is outspending the previous administration is absurd. I have also indicated this factually. Nevermind those pesky little things though. Just keep accusing the democrats in office of things they didnt do. Then again you may think that is me being negative when I am actually being a realist.

Good play with the punish of success card. That really moves the masses and gets the republicans blood boiling.
.
If deregulation can lead to clean coal power plants or more nuclear power plants why not? That can help drive down high electricity prices(which are about to skyrocket with the new "Cap and Tax" plan. That is gonna hurt the poor more than every one else) If deregulation can allow our own nation to drill for oil in Alaska or in the gulf why not? That can help reduce our "dependence on foreign oil".
Why is deregulation not viable? Can it possibly be about control or mistrust? I'd say the left is inherently controlling and mistrustful. They know better than anyone else.
Greed, as seen by the left, is a sin against those who just happen to be poor(the poor are taken advantage of by the greedy businesses/corporations... and are guilty by association for the want to make a profit) . The right see greed as a sin too... some of it more spiritually based, and tend to donate to private charities and religions and see the good those organizations do in a much more efficient manner than red tape and government could ever do. (BTW, that is a fundamental reason, but not the only one, why the right donates much more to charity than the left do.)
The numbers are clear on the deficit and new programs just coming out this week that two things will happen without actually paying down our existing debt. There will have to be a devastating new series' of taxes to support these programs or government will have to print out trillions of dollars. The first one will lead to high unemployment and a very very slow national growth rate with bad inflation. The second will lead to even higher inflation, interest rates going through the roof and a new lower class of citizens that has been unheard of here in these United States since the Great Depression(think third world). "The poor" in the USA aren't very poor compared to other nations, much less history.
I AM talking about what is going on now. Today! I haven't even mentioned Social Security and how Medicare/Medicaid has forced private medical insurance to rise as high as it is today.
Heck, the left has been in charge of the educational standards for years....
how is that working out for us? It's working out for them just fine...
.
You never addressed "punishing those who succeed" at all. That was not a card... it was a realist's statement.:) :nerd:

Farmersfan

07-16-2009, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by crabman
The problem with the whole mortgage crisis is also what makes America so great. Free Enterprise. The lenders were incentivized to make loans and by God they made them. The Brokers were incetivized to hook up borrowers and lenders and by God they did. Borrowers were incentivized to borrow as much as they could and by God they did. Insurance companies were incentivized to come up with new debt instruments and insurance to help cover the risk. Everything was Free Enterprise and it worked. One of the downfalls of Capitalism is that there is failure and failure must be allowed to happen to correct the market. No one is allowing anything to fail anymore. The other problem with unabated Free Enterprise in complex issues like this is that the smart people are doing business and coming up with scenarios quicker than regulators can figure it out. Be honest, if the governmental regulators were smart they wouldn't be working for the government. The free market will always be one step ahead of the regulations.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Very well put! I would only add that it is possible that the existence of some of these "Issues" was more of a sign that the Free Enterprise system was alive and healthy. If the wealthy aren't looking for ways to take advantage of their opportunities then the system is failing....