Parents fuming in Frisco [Archive]

Trashman

05-19-2009, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
You can't control what private citizens pass out to kids once they leave school property. FISD should go back to the Gideons giving them out as the kids leave school and let the parents worry about it.
If FISD continues to allow this, they won't be able to say no to other groups who want to do the same thing. Big time hornets' nest there.

I agree, next thing you know the Manson Family or MS 13 will be handing out their literature.:thinking:

GrTigers6

05-20-2009, 06:24 AM

Yeah I wouldn't have a problem with them offering literature to the students but then here comes every other organization wanting to do the same and i know there is several of those I don't agree with. So I think it should be uniform that no one is allowed. But thats my Opinion:thinking:

Heffelfinger

05-20-2009, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by GrTigers6
Yeah I wouldn't have a problem with them offering literature to the students but then here comes every other organization wanting to do the same and i know there is several of those I don't agree with. So I think it should be uniform that no one is allowed. But thats my Opinion:thinking:

How does any publication from any other organization compare with the Bible? Should we turn our back on the Bible because of fear? Light will drive out darkness.

waterboy

05-20-2009, 07:25 AM

I don't see anything wrong with passing out Bibles. How can anybody in their right mind compare the Bible with other literature? They push paganistic Darwinism on our students, yet when somebody offers another explanation for our existence, people go nuts. Take it for what it is, and just let it go. Some kids never get exposed to the Bible at home or school, so how else will kids ever learn another alternative to what is taught in textbooks? I'll bet that if it were Scientology books nobody would be able to claim it as religious literature. That's all I've got to say on this subject.:p

waterboy

05-20-2009, 10:16 AM

Just another way the 1st Amendment is being taken out of context. The original interpretation is much different than how it is being interpreted today. Of course, the 1st Amendment's intent is going to be interpreted differently by different sides of the matter. How is the government sponsoring specific religion when all they are doing is passing out Bibles, or "literature" as some would say. If the same argument is being used, why is Darwinism not considered religious material? Darwinism is the opposite of the beliefs set forth in the "literature" called the Bible, and in the context of the Bible would be considered religious? So, why not allow it? I don't see a problem with someone being able to believe one or the other, but that's just me.....;) Does the government have to be anti-religious in order to abide by one person's interpretation of the 1st Amendment? Why should the government be tolerant of one view (which is anti-religious), and not be tolerant of the other?

Emerson1

05-20-2009, 10:17 AM

They are sponsoring it when they decide that only the bible is allowed to be passed out and nothing else.

waterboy

05-20-2009, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Emerson1
They are sponsoring it when they decide that only the Bible is allowed to be passed out and nothing else.
What other literature has anyone attempted to pass out? Was it hate literature? If that's the case, that would be something entirely different. How is passing out a Bible, with no specific religious intent, considered "sponsoring" religion? Again, the interpretation of the 1st Amendment is being misconstrued. Read the rest of my post.

pirate4state

05-20-2009, 10:27 AM

:blahblah:

Pick6

05-20-2009, 10:29 AM

I remember the Gideons would come in and hand us New Testament Bibles when I was in school. No parents complained, the government wasn't attacking Christianity. Times sure were alot better back then :thinking:

waterboy

05-20-2009, 10:32 AM

http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/sign0058.gif Go up 2..

"I was once blind, but now I see."

waterboy

05-20-2009, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by Pick6
I remember the Gideons would come in and hand us New Testament Bibles when I was in school. No parents complained, the government wasn't attacking Christianity. Times sure were alot better back then :thinking:
Yeah, I remember that, too. You think maybe there's a correlation between what was happening then, as opposed to now in our society?http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/happy0062.gif

BEAST

05-20-2009, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by waterboy
Yeah, I remember that, too. You think maybe there's a correlation between what was happening then, as opposed to now in our society?http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/happy0062.gif

A very direct correlation.

BEAST

Johnny Utah

05-20-2009, 10:48 AM

Ernest T Bass is dead on with this one. If Schools allow this, other not so good items will come next. You have to have separation in schools. Schools are not churches. Values are provided in homes and from families. Schools provide educational foundations for futures careers and endeavors. Public schools are not on the same playing fields with Private schools. Just the way it is.

Emerson1

05-20-2009, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by waterboy
What other literature has anyone attempted to pass out? Was it hate literature? If that's the case, that would be something entirely different. How is passing out a Bible, with no specific religious intent, considered "sponsoring" religion? Again, the interpretation of the 1st Amendment is being misconstrued. Read the rest of my post.
Don't even try to act as if you would be ok with a group passing out Muslim and Atheist books at a school.

waterboy

05-20-2009, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Emerson1
Don't even try to act as if you would be ok with a group passing out Muslim and Atheist books at a school.
Kind of like you are okay with them teaching them Darwinism? The government is already teaching kids atheistic views when they teach Darwinism, so what's the REAL difference. No, I wouldn't like them passing out Muslim and Atheist books, but if they did, it wouldn't mean the government was "sponsoring" religion. The only way the government would be "sponsoring" religion is if they endorsed a specific religion, as opposed to another, which is exactly what they're doing when they teach Darwinism. Darwinism IS atheism, and that is my point, and the government is SPONSORING it!

Johnny Utah

05-20-2009, 11:59 AM

Darwinism is atheism?? Show me the stated fact on that. Schools teach evolution as a theory, which it is. Darwin studied the theory in great detail. You dont believe in evolution as a whole(not talking religion)? Explain why species change over time? Explain why only the strongest survive? Adaptation happens all of the time. You are giving opinions not facts. Opinions on religion is a huge reason why it is not taught in public schools. Too many people with too many perceptions. Hence, separation of church and state. I hate it when we as a society say GOVERNMENT does this or that. MOVE TO RUSSIA!

Pick6

05-20-2009, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Utah
I hate it when we as a society say GOVERNMENT does this or that. MOVE TO RUSSIA!

Why move, Russia's socialist ideas are moving here.

Johnny Utah

05-20-2009, 12:09 PM

That is funny. I would be for socialized medicine if it meant all were treated fairly. Have you gotten sick or had some medical bills, even though you are well insured?? That my friend is part of our problem and it has nothing to do with socialism. Insurance as a whole is a problem. You have to have it, but heaven forbid you ever have to use it. Again, the point is.....separation, has to be. You go to a church of your choice, do your kids? Or do they go because that is what you want them to believe? Great thing about our country, we have the right to choose. You also have the ability to take advantage of a FREE EDUCATION and that my friend is one reason why religion is not in the mix.
My teachers were all Christians I would assume. Never had one force their religious beliefs on me or my friends. That is not their role.

sahen

05-20-2009, 12:21 PM

comparing this to the teaching of evolution in science classrooms vs. creationism is not apples to apples.....Evolution (or Darwinism as its being called here) is an actual scientific theory used to describe how species came about on Earth...its is very valid for explaining the evolution we all can see in our lifetimes or over a series of generations (something as simple as the population becoming taller than it was 100 years ago)...however where the theory of evolution has its problem that makes it remain indeed a theory is the discussion in how life first arose and how it all came from one organism, this is currently and maybe always will be impossible to prove (even if it is true in its current form)....however, in science class there is no way to use creationism as a scientific theory, it may be true as well but there is no science behind it, it is a religiously motivated theory thus you have them teaching darwinism a scientifically motivated theory instead of creationsim or the hybrid intelligent design (my personal favorite).....

actually allowing the Gideons to put Bibles on the table can give the appearance that schools support one religion above another, as long as they give every religion/group equal opportunity there should be no conflict or legal argument since everyone has an equal shot...the problem becomes do we want religious groups soliciting to our kids or do we want that to be an outside school thing? i personally would rather them keep it outside so the child doesnt have to deal with competiting groups during their developmental years, but thats me...

Johnny Utah

05-20-2009, 12:24 PM

Great points, much more well stated than I ever could.

sahen

05-20-2009, 12:29 PM

also i would add that school libraries should all have copies of religious literature (i do not know if they do) but what libraries are not complete without some of the best selling books of all times...i know they have books on things such as mythology which was a religion at one time so y not have a copy of the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc...(this to me is very different than giving each student a personal copy of each)

waterboy

05-20-2009, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Utah
Darwinism is atheism?? Show me the stated fact on that. Schools teach evolution as a theory, which it is. Darwin studied the theory in great detail. You dont believe in evolution as a whole(not talking religion)? Explain why species change over time? Explain why only the strongest survive? Adaptation happens all of the time. You are giving opinions not facts. Opinions on religion is a huge reason why it is not taught in public schools. Too many people with too many perceptions. Hence, separation of church and state. I hate it when we as a society say GOVERNMENT does this or that. MOVE TO RUSSIA!
People are scared of what they don't understand. The fact of the matter is there is no neutral ground between one side or the other, and if you ever were open to my side, you'd understand that. Yes, we humans have changed over time, but we DID NOT evolve from apes. Show me the PROOF! Why do you think they've never found the "missing link"? Answer: because there's NOT one. There has been absolutely no proof that we evolved from an ape. The DNA in apes and humans are different, which proves there is no way we were ever one and the same. I have never seen an ape evolve into a human, have you, or any other scientist? Darwin also gave opinions that have not been proven, so this fairy tale of Darwin's was embellished to fit any holes in his theory that could not be proven. Yet we continue to teach this theory as science even though it is only theory, dispelling any possible religious correlation. The answers to our existence is somewhere in between science and religion, yet scientists will not allow themselves to see the correlation. So, I ask you, what is the difference? By the way, did you know that the former Soviet Union abolished the practice of religion? So why would I want to move to Russia, when it would be a more suitable place for those that don't believe?

Txbroadcaster

05-20-2009, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by waterboy
Show me the PROOF! Why do you think they've never found the "missing link"? Answer: because there's NOT one. There has been absolutely no proof that we evolved from an ape.

And there is no physical proof of Noah's Ark..or the Ark of the covenant or alot of other religious artifacts and even certain stories in religion cannot be actually physically proven...So are all those things ot true because we dont have proof?

sahen

05-20-2009, 12:57 PM

whoa...waterboy, if we did not teach theories in science then we wouldnt be teaching science at all...the theory of relatively is pretty solid, modern physics wouldnt exist without it (even though that pesky speed of light is kinda slowing down a little)...basically we wouldnt have physics at all if we didnt teach theories....forget physics we wouldnt have modern anything...cell theory (biology), germ theory (medical/biology), plate techtonic theory (geology), theory of molecular bonds (chemistry), theory of thermodynamics (chemistry)...every science is pretty much based on the premise of theories, there are very few actual Scientific Laws compared to theories...you cant just not teach something because it is a theory...if something becomes a scientific theory then it has passed scrupulous examination and most of it is fact, there are just some parts that are either impossible to prove or have so many variables that are true in every situation that can be thought of but we are not sure if we have thought of every situation yet....plus part of educating our young on scientific theories is so they can get out there and prove them or disprove them if they become scientist...if they dont konw about the theory then there is no way for them to do either...

by the way: chimp and human DNA are 96% the same....me and you have 99.9% the same DNA....yes the DNA is different in apes and humans but so is the DNA between you and me...do i think we are related to chimps? probably not but for someone who solely bases their opinions on science they would say there is a strong chance we are....if our schools are supposed to base their opinions solely on science and not religion then their teachigns would be in line with this "darwin proposes that we are related to apes, between chimps and humans there is only 4% difference in DNA so there is a strong chance we are however it has not been proven yet"

SHSBulldog00

05-20-2009, 01:02 PM

I believe that everything needs to be covered equally and if some students wish to not be in the room for a certain topic they may get permission from their parents to be in a different class during the discussion.

Txbroadcaster

05-20-2009, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by SHSBulldog00
I believe that everything needs to be covered equally and if some students wish to not be in the room for a certain topic they may get permission from their parents to be in a different class during the discussion.

so what is everything? What is the cutoff line?

Ranger Mom

05-20-2009, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
And there is no physical proof of Noah's Ark..or the Ark of the covenant or alot of other religious artifacts and even certain stories in religion cannot be actually physically proven...So are all those things ot true because we dont have proof?

This really has nothing to do with anything, but for some reason when you said what you did it reminded me of something else.

My ex-husband had a drinking/drug problem when we were married, a lot of the reason we are divorced. He went into rehab at one point and I had to have meetings with his counselor.

At one point I told her I just COULD NOT UNDERSTAND how a parent could spend the last bit of money he had on drugs/alcohol knowing full well that his children needed food and diapers. I told her if I had to pick one or the other, my kids would ALWAYS be first.

She told me that addiction is a disease and I would NEVER understand it, because I didn't have an "addictive" personality, but I had to learn to accept it and believe what she said is true.

That is how I choose to live my life (and my religion is part of that)...I don't have to understand it all, don't have to have proof, I just have to accept that it is true....for me anyway.

I don't push my beliefs on anyone, and really don't want or care to have anyone elses pushed on me!!

waterboy

05-20-2009, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by sahen
comparing this to the teaching of evolution in science classrooms vs. creationism is not apples to apples.....Evolution (or Darwinism as its being called here) is an actual scientific theory used to describe how species came about on Earth...its is very valid for explaining the evolution we all can see in our lifetimes or over a series of generations (something as simple as the population becoming taller than it was 100 years ago)...however where the theory of evolution has its problem that makes it remain indeed a theory is the discussion in how life first arose and how it all came from one organism, this is currently and maybe always will be impossible to prove (even if it is true in its current form)....however, in science class there is no way to use creationism as a scientific theory, it may be true as well but there is no science behind it, it is a religiously motivated theory thus you have them teaching darwinism a scientifically motivated theory instead of creationsim or the hybrid intelligent design (my personal favorite).....

actually allowing the Gideons to put Bibles on the table can give the appearance that schools support one religion above another, as long as they give every religion/group equal opportunity there should be no conflict or legal argument since everyone has an equal shot...the problem becomes do we want religious groups soliciting to our kids or do we want that to be an outside school thing? i personally would rather them keep it outside so the child doesnt have to deal with competiting groups during their developmental years, but thats me...
You're the only one I've seen thus far that explained your position in a context that can be understood by either side of the issue. I applaud you for that.:clap:

Ranger Mom

05-20-2009, 01:23 PM

I went to school at Coahoma High School....right down the road is Big Spring High School and a little ways south down Hwy 87 is Forsan High School.

For 50-60 years, all these schools have offered an elective Bible study class as part of their curriculum....as far as I know, there have never risen any problems from this.

As sad as it is...I can see why some would have issue with the Bibles being given away at school....but what is your take on an elective Bible study class?

Farmersfan

05-20-2009, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by waterboy
People are scared of what they don't understand. The fact of the matter is there is no neutral ground between one side or the other, and if you ever were open to my side, you'd understand that. Yes, we humans have changed over time, but we DID NOT evolve from apes. Show me the PROOF! Why do you think they've never found the "missing link"? Answer: because there's NOT one. There has been absolutely no proof that we evolved from an ape. The DNA in apes and humans are different, which proves there is no way we were ever one and the same. I have never seen an ape evolve into a human, have you, or any other scientist? Darwin also gave opinions that have not been proven, so this fairy tale of Darwin's was embellished to fit any holes in his theory that could not be proven. Yet we continue to teach this theory as science even though it is only theory, dispelling any possible religious correlation. The answers to our existence is somewhere in between science and religion, yet scientists will not allow themselves to see the correlation. So, I ask you, what is the difference? By the way, did you know that the former Soviet Union abolished the practice of religion? So why would I want to move to Russia, when it would be a more suitable place for those that don't believe?

You are right back to my point on the other thread. You use intelligence and knowledge to attempt to discount the idea of evolution when we actually have enough logical and respectable knowledge to lead us to a very proper hypothesis that says it did happen. If you applied even half that much thought to the other side of the equation you might see it from a whole different perspective. You cannot hold fast to the idea that evolution is false because you don't have proof and religion is true even though you also don't have proof. Intellectual contradiction? And we do have one undeniable indicator that evolution does exist. We can isolate it! We can examine it! We can even cause it! Intelligent reflection would lead us to assume that if we can examine (prove) evolution in a bacteria with a 30 second generation span then it should also apply to other species regardless of the amount of time between generations. Perhaps we didn't evolve from apes but we did evolve from something other than what we now are.

Farmersfan

05-20-2009, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I went to school at Coahoma High School....right down the road is Big Spring High School and a little ways south down Hwy 87 is Forsan High School.

For 50-60 years, all these schools have offered an elective Bible study class as part of their curriculum....as far as I know, there have never risen any problems from this.

As sad as it is...I can see why some would have issue with the Bibles being given away at school....but what is your take on an elective Bible study class?

I would actually encourage this. The more information a kid gets the more they can make a intelligent decision that is right for them. But let me ask you: Would you be ok with a study of atheism elective? Or Satanism elective? How about other religions?

waterboy

05-20-2009, 01:49 PM

Sahen, I'm not abdicating NOT teaching science at all. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. What I am saying is there is so much that science has not, and cannot prove, yet we still teach it as if it were fact. The science community should be open to any and all possibilities, not just dwell on unproven theories. Alternative ideas, or theories, should not be discarded just because they are religious in nature. That's all I'm saying. There's still so much to learn by man. The lines of discernment between fact and fiction are being skewed, therefore alternative ideas should be explored regardless of where the idea derived. You will not learn the entire truth without an open mind.

Ranger Mom

05-20-2009, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I would actually encourage this. The more information a kid gets the more they can make a intelligent decision that is right for them. But let me ask you: Would you be ok with a study of atheism elective? Or Satanism elective? How about other religions?

As an elective...why not??

I have 2 stepsons.....the 22 y/o is a "self-proclaimed" atheist...(although I have talked to him and would say he is more agnostic than atheist...I think he just thinks it looks cool on his myspace!!)

Anywho.....his brother, who is 20 is leaving this Friday to go to Pittsburgh for an internship on Christian Abstinence.

When I went to school, the Bible class that was taught was funded by churches from around the area. The teachers salaries were paid by that.

Pick6

05-20-2009, 02:45 PM

http://www.expelledthemovie.com/

Great documentary.

Txbroadcaster

05-20-2009, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Pick6
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/

Great documentary.

while that movie makes a few solid points IMO it spends to much time in conspiracy land

Trashman

05-20-2009, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I went to school at Coahoma High School....right down the road is Big Spring High School and a little ways south down Hwy 87 is Forsan High School.

For 50-60 years, all these schools have offered an elective Bible study class as part of their curriculum....as far as I know, there have never risen any problems from this.

As sad as it is...I can see why some would have issue with the Bibles being given away at school....but what is your take on an elective Bible study class?

I think that would be great as long as it is purely an elective. This works great in West Texas, but in the metro areas there could be trouble with fringe groups wanting to do the same thing.

Johnny Utah

05-20-2009, 04:24 PM

Darwin did not say man came from Apes, nor did he believe it. He said we came from a common ancestor. Science is always changing, new theories, laws, etc....That is what makes it so great. We basically have 3 types of people: Evolutionists, Creationists and a combo of both in the scientific world.

waterboy

05-20-2009, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Johnny Utah
Darwin did not say man came from Apes, nor did he believe it. He said we came from a common ancestor. Science is always changing, new theories, laws, etc....That is what makes it so great. We basically have 3 types of people: Evolutionists, Creationists and a combo of both in the scientific world.
True. That's what makes us who we are. Science is a good thing, and should be taught. If we can be tolerant of one theory, why can't we be tolerant of another? So long as it is a theory only why can't alternative explanations be allowed to be presented when they can't be proven or disproven? If we, as a society, are taught to be tolerant of alternative views, then why is it different when the shoe is on the other foot? I have to be tolerant of their views, but they can't be tolerant of mine? Honestly, I don't care if they can pass out Bibles or not. I just think they should be more tolerant, and realize that it is no big deal.

GrTigers6

05-20-2009, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Heffelfinger
How does any publication from any other organization compare with the Bible? Should we turn our back on the Bible because of fear? Light will drive out darkness. Yeah but you can find other places to hand out the bible. I definitely think there are several kids who need to know the bible. I just don't want to open the flood gates.

Emerson1

05-20-2009, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
so what is everything? What is the cutoff line?
I don't believe in biology. I think we are all made of hunny and marshmallows.

LH Panther Mom

05-20-2009, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by Emerson1
Don't even try to act as if you would be ok with a group passing out Muslim and Atheist books at a school.
Now, if I read the article correctly (and I did read it more than once), NO Bibles were passed out. They were placed on tables.

PhiI C

05-20-2009, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
Look, this has nothing to do with how valid your beliefs are. My grandaddy used to have a saying that many of you have proven true; "When you throw the word "God" into a conversation, even the wisest of folks will stop thinkin' and start feelin'".
This is part of the reason that our founding fathers put freedom of religion in the 1st amendment. Most of them were not devoted Christians, but were deitists(very closely related to agnostics). But, they saw the dangers of a society rulled by religion. Notice I said society, not life. The only purpose religion has is to solidify values and morals, and it's a great thing to do that. Problem is, everyone is convinced that their religion is the only correct one and therefore everyone else is wrong. If you dont believe that then you're not very devoted to your religion b/c every major religious text states that very thing.
Now, that being said, if Frisco ISD allows the Gideons to place Bibles on a table on property they own(and therefore, the public also owns) for students to take, then they have to allow everyone to do the same barring violence, obscenity, drugs, etc...So, if a cult wanted to place their litterature on that table for the kids to take, they could. If a Satanist group wanted to do it, or an atheist group wanted to, they could as well and FISD wouldn't be able to say no. If they dont allow the Gideons to do it, then they can tell everyone else no as well.
As for a bible class elective, you'd have a hard time selling it without at least one other religion being offered as an equal class. And, if a kid wanted out at any time, you'd be real hard pressed not to let him out(even halfway through the year). Honestly, you might as well rename yourself "Please Sue Us High School", b/c civil rights lawyers and the ACLU reps would have trouble sleeping on their stomachs at the thought of that.

Ernest I admire the Gideons.

sahen

05-20-2009, 09:46 PM

waterboy, what alternate theories to evolution would you like to teach students? Creationism and Intelligent Design are not scientific theories...as a matter of fact they will never be they just aren't science backed (except for the parts intelligent design borrow from evolution)....basically evolution has no competitor as far as scientific theories...i just dont see what else you can teach the kids...if the problem is the teacher is teaching it as fact then thats a whole seperate issue as in all theory based subjects students should be explained to that theories are indeed not laws therefore they are not proven to be true in all instances yet...

theories will change as time goes by, i have a biochem degree and i can tell you in that field alone theories changed from the time i started college to the time i got out...heck they figured out the speed of light was actually slowing down and wasnt really constant when i was junior or sophomore in college making one of my physics professors go nuts in a monologue to our class one day...the theory of evolution we know now is actually not as darwin wrote it, it remains mainly intact but some of it has been disproven and other parts disproven, in 100 years it may be completely different or we will have a new competiting idea or the good Lord will have came back and there will be no mysteries so who knows...what i do know is that if your gonna teach science then religious facts are not necessarily facts in science....if you ask science a man cant be cruicified and be dead for 3 days then come back to life, but Christians know it can happen, we dont argue that, i see evolution in a similiar light....