Scientific Question

[JasperDog94]

Leaving religion out of the picture, I have a scientific dilemma.

The pro-life crowd believes that life begins at conception. The pro-choice crowd believes that a fetus is part of a woman's body and therefor her choice to choose what to do with her own body. So my dilemma is this:

If you are given a blood transfusion with a different type of blood, it will kill you. So how is it that a fetus can have a different blood type than its mother if it is part of her body?

[Bullaholic]

The blood supplies of the mother and fetus are independent, and not shared. The fetus shares only nutrients and oxygen with the mother.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
The blood supplies of the mother and fetus are independent, and not shared. The fetus shares only nutrients and oxygen with the mother. In that case it is not part of her body, correct? If they are sharing something independent of each other then they are separate.

[Bullaholic]

JDog, if you are about to tackle the abortion issue---good luck---IMO, it is as contentious as political debate because, sooner or later, the religion and ethics discussion comes to bear, and there goes the neighborhood.

[JasperDog94]

I am simply trying to understand how scientifically a fetus can be considered to be a part of a woman's body when it sometimes has a separate blood type. That is all.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
I am simply trying to understand how scientifically a fetus can be considered to be a part of a woman's body when it sometimes has a separate blood type. That is all.

If it isnt part of the mother then it should survive without the mother, correct? If it will not survive without the mother then it is still part of the host. No religion or politics necessary to think logically.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by rockdale80
If it isnt part of the mother then it should survive without the mother, correct? If it will not survive without the mother then it is still part of the host. No religion or politics necessary to think logically. Then if it is part of the mother then how can it have a different blood type without killing the mother?

[BobcatBenny]

Originally posted by rockdale80
If it isnt part of the mother then it should survive without the mother, correct? If it will not survive without the mother then it is still part of the host. No religion or politics necessary to think logically.
Well, then once a baby can be grown outside of a mother. Which scientifically is approaching reality, that would retroactively turn all fetuses to what? People?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus

:thinking:

[Electus Unus]

I agree with abortion as long as it isn't after the first trimester.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Electus Unus
I agree with abortion as long as it isn't after the first trimester. Why? What makes the second and third trimesters different?

[bullfrog_alumni_02]

as a man, i can have no side in this fight; UNTIL it is my dna/genes that are at stake. at that point i would rather the mother sign her rights of the child over to me and she can go on about her life as if it never happened. but since i am a man, i can not scientifically bare a child. so i have no idea what the ethical solution to this problem is.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by BobcatBenny
Well, then once a baby can be grown outside of a mother. Which scientifically is approaching reality, that would retroactively turn all fetuses to what? People?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus

:thinking:

Did you know that cancer also starts as a small cluster of cells, and its growth environment can be mimicked outside of a host? Is that a life form?

Just saying. ;)

This discussion is like global warming though. Either side can provide support to their argument, but it will still mostly be based their own personal opinion.

I just dont think this is a government issue......

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Then if it is part of the mother then how can it have a different blood type without killing the mother?
It can. That's why those of us with negative blood have to have Rhogam.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
It can. That's why those of us with negative blood have to have Rhogam.

Taking medication like that erases natural selection :)

just messing with you mom.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by rockdale80
Did you know that cancer also starts as a small cluster of cells, and its growth environment can be mimicked outside of a host? Is that a life form?

Just saying. ;) Wow. Now we're linking cancer with babies. Wow.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
It can. That's why those of us with negative blood have to have Rhogam. True. This is to protect the mother from getting any of the fetuses blood...if they were the same person or part of the same body then there would be no issue.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
Texas penal code defines murder as:the intentional killing of a person or persons.
Same code defines person as:someone who is born and alive.
So, according to Texas law, someone who isn't born is not a person. California however, recognizes an unborn child as a person. Not sure how abortions skirt past that. That is certainly an interesting question. There was a case a while back that I think was out of California where a man killed his pregnant girlfriend. (it may have been his wife) Either way the police were trying to charge him with double homicide. I never heard what happened in that case.

[bullfrog_alumni_02]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Wow. Now we're linking cancer with babies. Wow. not too far of a stretch. one could even go so far as to say that a baby resembles a type of parasite. with that said, its completely unfounded and not true. while they resemble each other it doesnt mean its true.

dogs=furry, have claws, are quadra-peds, have tails...etc.

cats= furry, have claws, are quadra-peds, have tails...etc.

these two, by comparison, are similar. but that doesnt mean they are the same. alot of things might be similar but arent the same. we know the difference because we are capable of abstract thought.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
True. This is to protect the mother from getting any of the fetuses blood...if they were the same person or part of the same body then there would be no issue.
:doh: :doh: And I totally got it backwards....it's the fetus that gets attacked, not the mom. I guess it's been too long since my last shot. ;)

[Electus Unus]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
That is certainly an interesting question. There was a case a while back that I think was out of California where a man killed his pregnant girlfriend. (it may have been his wife) Either way the police were trying to charge him with double homicide. I never heard what happened in that case. Well to be scientific everyone is born with cancer it is just how your immune system handles it

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Leaving religion out of the picture, I have a scientific dilemma.

The pro-life crowd believes that life begins at conception. The pro-choice crowd believes that a fetus is part of a woman's body and therefor her choice to choose what to do with her own body. So my dilemma is this:

If you are given a blood transfusion with a different type of blood, it will kill you. So how is it that a fetus can have a different blood type than its mother if it is part of her body?



Why does this even matter? Same blood or different blood has not bearing on the subject.

[bullfrog_alumni_02]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Why does this even matter? Same blood or different blood has not bearing on the subject. it matters because he is using it as a means to derive the question of whether the mother and baby/fetus are one or two seperate beings of life. therefor if they are one it is not murder or is not it is.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by bullfrog_alumni_02
it matters because he is using it as a means to derive the question of whether the mother and baby/fetus are one or two seperate beings of life. therefor if they are one it is not murder or is not it is.

I dont know where he is going with it. Either way, I am sure it will lead to his point...which is based on opinion. Scientific facts cansupport either opinion. The real issue is does life begin at conception, heartbeat, or survival outside of the womb. Or somewhere in between...

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by bullfrog_alumni_02
it matters because he is using it as a means to derive the question of whether the mother and baby/fetus are one or two seperate beings of life. therefor if they are one it is not murder or is not it is.


And that is my point!!!!! For arguements sake let's say the mother and the fetus are considered completely different entities at the moment of conception. Does that serve any real purpose to the discussion? A fungus can grow in a person's lungs and NOBODY would claim a fungus is part of the man's body and the fungus is alive so by this reasoning the government should be able to tell the man he can't cut out the fungus????? I man in another country recently found a tree growing in his lungs from a seed he inhaled some time ago. Seperate life? Illegal to remove? The question of when the fetus becomes a "HUMAN" has to be answered before the previous question even has any relevance.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,514955,00.html

[waterboy]

I've seen many times where when a pregnant woman is murdered, or killed in a car accident that was the result of negligence by the other driver, the suspect is charged not only with her murder (or manslaughter), but for the fetus' murder also. How can they do this if abortion is legal? Isn't that a sort of double standard? Morally, I know abortion is wrong, so I'm definitely against it, but we shouldn't have double standards. To me, the only ways abortion is justifiable is if it endangers the life of the mother, or if the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
And that is my point!!!!! For arguements sake let's say the mother and the fetus are considered completely different entities at the moment of conception. Does that serve any real purpose to the discussion? A fungus can grow in a person's lungs and NOBODY would claim a fungus is part of the man's body and the fungus is alive so by this reasoning the government should be able to tell the man he can't cut out the fungus????? I man in another country recently found a tree growing in his lungs from a seed he inhaled some time ago. Seperate life? Illegal to remove? The question of when the fetus becomes a "HUMAN" has to be answered before the previous question even has any relevance.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,514955,00.html You bring up a good point. Are the mother and fetus two separate lifeforms? If so then abortion is wrong. If they are the same lifeform then the mother has a right to do whatever she wants with her body. It's that simple.

[bullfrog_alumni_02]

the question brought up by the fungal issue of what was previously posted is a good point, but as this fungus is not a sentient species and therefor can not communicate in anyway it has no knowlege of life/death/anything in between. the same thing can be said for a baby however, when it is just cells. a baby does have the ability to communicate with others and to be self-aware. but we might not recognize it as being such. but it happens. i took a human sexuality class last semester and one of the things that was pointed out is that even babies in the womb will "indulge" themselves. (i dont want to get any more graphic than that) this shows that the baby has the ability to know that it is in existence. humans and dolphins are the only known species that have sex for pleasure, not just to carry on a species or genes. the fungus spoken of earlier does not have the ability to be self aware, not in todays day and age anyway. so i whole-heartedly believe that a being must be capable of being self aware to be considered murder if it is killed. now the question becomes at what point do babies become self-aware?

[SintonFan]

Very good topic JD94!:clap:
.
I am surprised more Ladies haven't given their point of view.:eek:
Maybe their just waiting for all us Men get "foot in mouth" syndrome...

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
You bring up a good point. Are the mother and fetus two separate lifeforms? If so then abortion is wrong. If they are the same lifeform then the mother has a right to do whatever she wants with her body. It's that simple.


Just because we establish they are two different lifeforms doesn't make it murder any more than removing the fungus from your body would be murder. In the beginning, the fetus is nothing more than a mass of live cells. Some will say that even if just a bunch of cells it is still a bunch of "HUMAN" cells and should be protected. But that rationale would have to apply to a tumor, tonsils or appendex. All these things are human in DNA. I would vote agaisnt legal abortions once the term gets past the point that the fetus is in fact a person and not just a wriggling lump of flesh. But at the very least I think they need to find a more compassionate way to do it. But all this discussion is a mute point because abortions have been going on for centuries and will always go on. The question is if they will be done illegally in the back alley or legally in a hospital?????

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by SintonFan
Very good topic JD94!:clap:
.
I am surprised more Ladies haven't given their point of view.:eek:
Maybe their just waiting for all us Men get "foot in mouth" syndrome...


Foot in mouth syndrome? Here goes:

If it is decided that a woman can choose to legally abort a fetus because she doesn't want the child or is not financially capable of taking care of the child then isn't it logical that MEN who have complicity in a woman's pregnancy should be equally capable of extricating themselves from the situation? Although not a popular belief in today's PC society if a woman choses to ignore the wishes of her partner then shouldn't she have to take 100% responsibility for the decision? It just seems a little lopsided to me that a woman can get pregnate, decide to keep the baby and be legally correct in forcing 18 years of support from the man when the man had ZERO say in the decision. We all know that a huge number of women in this country intentionally get pregnate to trap, coerce or force the hand of the man they want or simply for added welfare benefits. Creating a unwanted life for no other reason than personal gain should be one of our highest crimes but I don't hear these self-rightgeous soap-box preachers condemning that.....

My mouth is too full now so I will stop! :) :)

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Foot in mouth syndrome? Here goes:

We all know that a huge number of women in this country intentionally get pregnate to trap, coerce or force the hand of the man they want or simply for added welfare benefits. Creating a unwanted life for no other reason than personal gain should be one of our highest crimes but I don't hear these self-rightgeous soap-box preachers condemning that.....

My mouth is too full now so I will stop! :) :)

What size is that mouth, Farmer? About a 9 1/2?;)

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by ronwx5x
What size is that mouth, Farmer? About a 9 1/2?;)


Based on my last post it better be pretty dang big! Right?

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Based on my last post it better be pretty dang big! Right?

I'm enjoying sitting on the sidelines and watching you guys throw rocks!

Just to stir things up, how are the Farmers looking for next year? Is the community growing enough to remain in 3A next realignment? I read that the North Dallas area growth has reportedly slowed significantly.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Foot in mouth syndrome? Here goes:

If it is decided that a woman can choose to legally abort a fetus because she doesn't want the child or is not financially capable of taking care of the child then isn't it logical that MEN who have complicity in a woman's pregnancy should be equally capable of extricating themselves from the situation? Although not a popular belief in today's PC society if a woman choses to ignore the wishes of her partner then shouldn't she have to take 100% responsibility for the decision? It just seems a little lopsided to me that a woman can get pregnate, decide to keep the baby and be legally correct in forcing 18 years of support from the man when the man had ZERO say in the decision. We all know that a huge number of women in this country intentionally get pregnate to trap, coerce or force the hand of the man they want or simply for added welfare benefits. Creating a unwanted life for no other reason than personal gain should be one of our highest crimes but I don't hear these self-rightgeous soap-box preachers condemning that.....

My mouth is too full now so I will stop! :) :)
.
Umm...
the whole foot in mouth thing was intended as a joke.

[Spaceman_Spiff]

That's one of those questions that will really get you thinking. My answer is "I don't know"...but it is one of the questions that I will ask Someone who knows one of these days!!!

I'm gonna ask the same Someone "what kind of fruit was it really"?...and I'm gonna ask...

If light was created by Someone simply saying "Let there be light", is it still being created and spreading?... because I've never read where that same Someone said "Let the light stop being created".

Sorry, but the question just got me to thinking!

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Spaceman_Spiff
That's one of those questions that will really get you thinking. My answer is "I don't know"...but it is one of the questions that I will ask Someone who knows one of these days!!!

I'm gonna ask the same Someone "what kind of fruit was it really"?...and I'm gonna ask...

If light was created by Someone simply saying "Let there be light", is it still being created and spreading?... because I've never read where that same Someone said "Let the light stop being created".

Sorry, but the question just got me to thinking!
And you are one inquisitive and smart feller! I was thinking about asking Him those same questions when I meet Him!;)

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Spaceman_Spiff
That's one of those questions that will really get you thinking. My answer is "I don't know"...but it is one of the questions that I will ask Someone who knows one of these days!!!

I'm gonna ask the same Someone "what kind of fruit was it really"?...and I'm gonna ask...

If light was created by Someone simply saying "Let there be light", is it still being created and spreading?... because I've never read where that same Someone said "Let the light stop being created".

Sorry, but the question just got me to thinking!


I have to ask how a simple "let there be light" statement could create a ever expandiing galaxy located in the middle of a billion other ever expanding galaxies? Man! talk about a slight over-shoot!

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by waterboy
And you are one inquisitive and smart feller! I was thinking about asking Him those same questions when I meet Him!;)


That would be a great thread waterboy. "If you had one question to get the final answer on, what question would you ask?" Start the thread if you dare!!!!!:D :D

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
That would be a great thread waterboy. "If you had one question to get the final answer on, what question would you ask?" Start the thread if you dare!!!!!:D :D
I ain't skeered!:D The only thing is, that type of thread would have religious connotation, so we know how that would turn out.;)

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
In the beginning, the fetus is nothing more than a mass of live cells. Some will say that even if just a bunch of cells it is still a bunch of "HUMAN" cells and should be protected. But that rationale would have to apply to a tumor, tonsils or appendex. The only problem with this logic is that nobody would argue the fact that a tumor, tonsils or appendix is part of someone's body. That's the basic scientific question. If it is part of your body, then you can do what you will. If it is not part of your body (and has the potential to be a sentient being) then who are you or I to determine if that life form should be terminated?

[Ranger Mom]

While I don't personally believe in abortion (except in the instances already discussed), I still don't want the government telling me what I can or can't do with my body!

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
While I don't personally believe in abortion (except in the instances already discussed), I still don't want the government telling me what I can or can't do with my body! And that is the question at hand. Is it your body or is it a separate life form?

Trust me. I agree with you about the government getting too involved in our lives as it is.

[garciap77]

Originally posted by waterboy
.................................... Morally, I know abortion is wrong, so I'm definitely against it, but we shouldn't have double standards. To me, the only ways abortion is justifiable is if it endangers the life of the mother, or if the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest.

:iagree:

That makes common sense!

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I have to ask how a simple "let there be light" statement could create a ever expandiing galaxy located in the middle of a billion other ever expanding galaxies? Man! talk about a slight over-shoot!

Slight overshoot?...or perfect game planning?;) ;) ;)

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
And that is the question at hand. Is it your body or is it a separate life form?

Trust me. I agree with you about the government getting too involved in our lives as it is.

Scientifically speaking....since it can't sustain it's life on it's own for the first few months, I would think it is still part of my body.

But.....a developing fetus is STILL a human baby in the end and a separate life form.....therein lies my dilemma!

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Scientifically speaking....since it can't sustain it's life on it's own for the first few months, I would think it is still part of my body.

But.....a developing fetus is STILL a human baby in the end and a separate life form.....therein lies my dilemma! That's why I wanted to keep this thread scientific only. My main question was in regards to a fetus (baby) having a different blood type than the mother. I've read that a fetus develops its blood as early as 21 days. And if a fetus can have a different blood type than it's mother, then to me that dictates it is separate from the mother.

No one would argue that the fetus needs the mother to make it to maturity, but you continue to nourish a baby once it is outside the womb. It cannot sustain itself on its own once it has been born, yet we consider it a life.

Just food for thought.

[bullfrog_alumni_02]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
That's why I wanted to keep this thread scientific only. My main question was in regards to a fetus (baby) having a different blood type than the mother. I've read that a fetus develops its blood as early as 21 days. And if a fetus can have a different blood type than it's mother, then to me that dictates it is separate from the mother.

No one would argue that the fetus needs the mother to make it to maturity, but you continue to nourish a baby once it is outside the womb. It cannot sustain itself on its own once it has been born, yet we consider it a life.

Just food for thought.

this thread also begs the question that if an abortion is murder, then wouldnt a miscarriage be manslaughter? what i mean is that one is a voluntary action while the other just kind of happens and is more or less out of control of the person to whom would have committed the crime.

also, the state of washington has some really screwed up laws about this. one of our contractors when i was in the army on active duty lived in washington. he elaborated that if a man even gets in a relationship to where it is considered common law then he has an obligation to take care of the woman's children until they reach the age of 18. furthermore the man has no say so in the aborting process whatsoever. so if a woman has 10 different kids from 10 different men, then each of those 10 different men are obligated to take care of the other children with child support. however, to see how that would work the first guy would only be obligated to take care of his child and not any of the others provided he never went back to being in a relationship with the mother, while the 10th guy must provide for all of the children because he knowingly went into the situation and had a child with the woman, presumably that they would remain together atleast for the course of the child's life until he or she reaches the age of 18.

SO with that being said, no one ever move to washington.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
That's why I wanted to keep this thread scientific only. My main question was in regards to a fetus (baby) having a different blood type than the mother. I've read that a fetus develops its blood as early as 21 days. And if a fetus can have a different blood type than it's mother, then to me that dictates it is separate from the mother.

No one would argue that the fetus needs the mother to make it to maturity, but you continue to nourish a baby once it is outside the womb. It cannot sustain itself on its own once it has been born, yet we consider it a life.

Just food for thought.

It isnt food for thought. It is still your opinion and nothing more. The science can support both sides of the line, but it will be motivated by opinion.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by rockdale80
It isnt food for thought. It is still your opinion and nothing more. The science can support both sides of the line, but it will be motivated by opinion. It is your opinion that it is my opinion. ;)

All I did was ask a scientific question. Yet I'm told that it is based on opinion? That makes no sense. There have been people talking about different scientific facts, which was the point of this thread. Sorry if you got your feelings hurt. That was not my intent at all.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
It is your opinion that it is my opinion. ;)

All I did was ask a scientific question. Yet I'm told that it is based on opinion? That makes no sense. There have been people talking about different scientific facts, which was the point of this thread. Sorry if you got your feelings hurt. That was not my intent at all.

Not my intent to come off that way. This isnt a scientific question. You called me crazy when I likened a fertilized egg that starts mulitplying to cancer, yet your science isnt that different. You use the blood type to further your stance, but it is still based on your opinion that life begins at conception. Friends? :)

[bullfrog_alumni_02]

Originally posted by rockdale80
Not my intent to come off that way. This isnt a scientific question. You called me crazy when I likened a fertilized egg that starts mulitplying to cancer, yet your science isnt that different. You use the blood type to further your stance, but it is still based on your opinion that life begins at conception. Friends? :) as far as opinions go...we should ask the creator. beit of the baby or humanity. since we have no definative way of speaking with God, the next best thing is the parents. what is their opinion of where it starts? since no one of us will prolly ever have the EXACT same opinion, it really becomes a moot issue to try and get a majority opinion. therefor, it is the parents(woman's) right because she has to carry the baby. honestly i think its sad that someone would want to have an abortion. but that is just MY opinion. i have always felt that there is nothing we can do to change what will happen, kind of a fatalist if you will. we can interupt and and delay it, but really its inevitable. whatever IT is, is left up to interpretation. however it will still happen.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by rockdale80
Not my intent to come off that way. This isnt a scientific question. You called me crazy when I likened a fertilized egg that starts mulitplying to cancer, yet your science isnt that different. You use the blood type to further your stance, but it is still based on your opinion that life begins at conception. Friends? :) No hard feelings.:)

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I have to ask how a simple "let there be light" statement could create a ever expandiing galaxy located in the middle of a billion other ever expanding galaxies? Man! talk about a slight over-shoot!
Overshoot?? Ever stopped to think that all these scientists may be right about the "Big Bang Theory", at least in essence? The only thing is, the "Big Bang" was created by His simple utterance of, "Let there be light." That initial light is still expanding to this day.:thinking:

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by waterboy
Overshoot?? Ever stopped to think that all these scientists may be right about the "Big Bang Theory", at least in essence? The only thing is, the "Big Bang" was created by His simple utterance of, "Let there be light." That initial light is still expanding to this day.:thinking:


Symbolism waterboy! Just plain simple Symbolism!

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by rockdale80
Not my intent to come off that way. This isnt a scientific question. You called me crazy when I likened a fertilized egg that starts mulitplying to cancer, yet your science isnt that different. You use the blood type to further your stance, but it is still based on your opinion that life begins at conception. Friends? :)


It's was asking for a science answer to a moral question.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Symbolism waterboy! Just plain simple Symbolism!
So,.......I take it you don't believe in God?:( How else do you explain it? Are we just an accident? In your infinite wisdom, how did we end up here? What's the meaning of life, oh great one?

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by waterboy
So,.......I take it you don't believe in God?:( How else do you explain it? Are we just an accident? In your infinite wisdom, how did we end up here? What's the meaning of life, oh great one?

One of my favorite quotes:

I would rather live my life like there is a God and find out that there isn't, than live my life like there is no God, and find out that there is!!!:eek:

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
One of my favorite quotes:

I would rather live my life like there is a God and find out that there isn't, than live my life like there is no God, and find out that there is!!!:eek:
That's for sure.

But, my thinking is how in the world can anybody not believe we were created by intelligent design. There is absolutely no proof otherwise, just unsubstantiated speculation. There is no way we evolved from an amoeba to what we are today. If we did evolve, where's the evidence? To date there is none. Has anybody ever thought about how remarkable life on earth is? Back when I was in college, I was a little skeptical about our origins, until I took Anatomy and Physiology I and II. After seeing how complicated and perfect the human body is made, there is NO WAY we were not created! Those books made me realize that we were NO accident! All I have to do is look around me, and I just know.....deep down, I just know. I'm not just saying this because I'm a Christian, either!

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by waterboy
So,.......I take it you don't believe in God?:( How else do you explain it? Are we just an accident? In your infinite wisdom, how did we end up here? What's the meaning of life, oh great one?



That is the million dollar question my friend!!!!! I can't answer it because this thread would be shut down in a heartbeat. But to take a risk I will ask you one simple and all encompassing question:
If what we know about God is true then why would there be any unbelief in the world?????

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by waterboy
That's for sure.

But, my thinking is how in the world can anybody not believe we were created by intelligent design. There is absolutely no proof otherwise, just unsubstantiated speculation. There is no way we evolved from an amoeba to what we are today. If we did evolve, where's the evidence? To date there is none. Has anybody ever thought about how remarkable life on earth is? Back when I was in college, I was a little skeptical about our origins, until I took Anatomy and Physiology I and II. After seeing how complicated and perfect the human body is made, there is NO WAY we were not created! Those books made me realize that we were NO accident! All I have to do is look around me, and I just know.....deep down, I just know. I'm not just saying this because I'm a Christian, either!



Of course you are joking right? Perhaps you should go back and crack a science book! We have millions of years worth of historical data that supports EVOLUTION. We have cold hard facts that show the evolutionary path of mankind. Add a supreme being to the mix if you want but to simply disregard all this knowledge is ridiculous. Man did evolve and that fact cannot be disputed.

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Of course you are joking right? Perhaps you should go back and crack a science book! We have millions of years worth of historical data that supports EVOLUTION. We have cold hard facts that show the evolutionary path of mankind. Add a supreme being to the mix if you want but to simply disregard all this knowledge is ridiculous. Man did evolve and that fact cannot be disputed. no way, the earth is 6,000 years old and humans rode dinosaurs! Come on FarmersFan, don't challenge religion.

[Ranger Mom]

I know by asking this question...I will probably have to end up shutting this thread down myself, but I have always wondered....

If we evolved from apes...how come there are still apes??

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
That is the million dollar question my friend!!!!! I can't answer it because this thread would be shut down in a heartbeat. But to take a risk I will ask you one simple and all encompassing question:
If what we know about God is true then why would there be any unbelief in the world?????

Que?

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Of course you are joking right? Perhaps you should go back and crack a science book! We have millions of years worth of historical data that supports EVOLUTION. We have cold hard facts that show the evolutionary path of mankind. Add a supreme being to the mix if you want but to simply disregard all this knowledge is ridiculous. Man did evolve and that fact cannot be disputed.
What historical data? There are theories, but very questionable proof. I've read plenty of history books, science books, and they do make some key discoveries that would lead you to think we may have evolved, but there is always some link in their chain of thought, or "proof", that is missing or cannot be proven. I will say that I agree with the proof that is given, just not in the context they give this proof. I've given MUCH thought about this subject, but I'm just like these scientists you speak so highly of, I have no conclusive proof in the way of biological science. It is human nature to wanna believe that we have all the answers. The problem is we don't, and never will. I think the truth of our origin is a combination of the two beliefs. In other words, neither belief proves, or disproves, the other as fact. So, NO, I don't discount science that has been proven, just science that cannot be proven.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by I_Do_Care
no way, the earth is 6,000 years old and humans rode dinosaurs! Come on FarmersFan, don't challenge religion.

bwhahahahahah....that was funny

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by waterboy
What historical data? There are theories, but very questionable proof. I've read plenty of history books, science books, and they do make some key discoveries that would lead you to think we may have evolved, but there is always some link in their chain of thought, or "proof", that is missing or cannot be proven. I will say that I agree with the proof that is given, just not in the context they give this proof. I've given MUCH thought about this subject, but I'm just like these scientists you speak so highly of, I have no conclusive proof in the way of biological science. It is human nature to wanna believe that we have all the answers. The problem is we don't, and never will. I think the truth of our origin is a combination of the two beliefs. In other words, neither belief proves, or disproves, the other as fact. So, NO, I don't discount science that has been proven, just science that cannot be proven.




Again read some books! Go the museum sometime! We have unearthed actual remains of humans that indicate a different level of evolution. Other than a period in history that is missing(the missing link) we have dated human remains for every period in our history dating back 2 million years. We hold proof in our very hands that man was once much different than he is right now. I don't know how much more proof you need but if you can show even a small percent of this proof in support of creationism I'm on board.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
That is the million dollar question my friend!!!!! I can't answer it because this thread would be shut down in a heartbeat. But to take a risk I will ask you one simple and all encompassing question:
If what we know about God is true then why would there be any unbelief in the world?????
Good question. By the same token, if what scientists say is true, why would would there be any belief in God in the world? All we can say for sure is nobody has all the answers, and the truth may lie somewhere in between.

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by waterboy
Good question. By the same token, if what scientists say is true, why would would there be any belief in God in the world? All we can say for sure is nobody has all the answers, and the truth may lie somewhere in between. God facilitated the unknown prior to science, hence the stars and moon being carried across the sky by Zeus' chariot and all the other mysticism surrounding the development of religion in the hierarchical sense. Anthropologists have known religion to be the intermediary between early humans and the unexplainable, when Science emerged to challenge that, well, they were met with harsh repercussions! It really wasn't that long ago that we still believed the world was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe. Religion remains however because of it's social capital, its appeal to faith and in many cases its assurance to our most mysterious human phenomena, death. I am spiritual, but I think it is silly to believe we KNOW what God believes, what he knows, wants and/or "IS" and especially all these evangelicals with their perverse obsession with the coming rapture! LOL But what do I know, SMITE ME!!!
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s274/smog1/Myspace%20pics/creationism.gif

[I_Do_Care]

.:thinking:

[garciap77]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Again read some books! Go the museum sometime! We have unearthed actual remains of humans that indicate a different level of evolution. Other than a period in history that is missing(the missing link) we have dated human remains for every period in our history dating back 2 million years. We hold proof in our very hands that man was once much different than he is right now. I don't know how much more proof you need but if you can show even a small percent of this proof in support of creationism I'm on board.

Que! Que!
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd185/garciap77/ugly1yycopyyo4.gif

;)

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Again read some books! Go the museum sometime! We have unearthed actual remains of humans that indicate a different level of evolution. Other than a period in history that is missing(the missing link) we have dated human remains for every period in our history dating back 2 million years. We hold proof in our very hands that man was once much different than he is right now. I don't know how much more proof you need but if you can show even a small percent of this proof in support of creationism I'm on board.
Okay, once again I will tell you I have read many books. The proof needed to make a conclusion is just not there, the missing link being one instance. I will agree that man has changed over thousands of years, that's a given, but I have serious doubts as to our evolving from apes over "millions" of years. They are a totally different species. Scientists, with all the technology today, will tell you they can alter DNA in many ways, but they have never been able to change one species into another. I will also say that I have serious doubts about the validity of carbon dating techniques, too. One reason that comes to mind is how we, as a human race, advanced technologically so fast in the last couple of centuries, when it took millions of years (supposedly) just to discover the wheel, fire, and other such things that are already present in nature in one form or another. I'm just curious as to how you think we started as a life form, then maybe you can show me proof as to how that happened. If there were unequivocable evidence to show that we evolved, without any of the missing steps, I would be on board with you. ;) Like I said, I think the truth lies somewhere between your beliefs and mine.;)

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I know by asking this question...I will probably have to end up shutting this thread down myself, but I have always wondered....

If we evolved from apes...how come there are still apes??

Hmmmm!!:thinking:

Still no answer to my question.....

That's what I thought!!:p

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Hmmmm!!:thinking:

Still no answer to my question.....

That's what I thought!!:p
Hey, RM, maybe they're evolving as we speak!;) If life wasn't as short as it is, maybe in a million years, or two, we can come back and see I_Do_Care riding on a purple dinosaur! Bwahahahahah!:D

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Hmmmm!!:thinking:

Still no answer to my question.....

That's what I thought!!:p cause your question is worded incorrectly. Evolutionary theorists early believed perhaps we evolved from apes. Through DNA coding we've realized we are not derived from apes, despite 98% match with some species, but we evolved from something similar. Fossil records even show man at it's earliest living along side neanderthal, (which may have led to their eventual extinction). But you know how hard it is to find one person in a world this big and interconnected, now try to find the missing link buried for thousands perhaps millions of years! LOL

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by waterboy
Hey, RM, maybe they're evolving as we speak!;) If life wasn't as short as it is, maybe in a million years, or two, we can come back and see I_Do_Care riding on a purple dinosaur! Bwahahahahah!:D

I thought they had ALREADY evolved....into us.

Heck....I don't even like bananas!!

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by waterboy
maybe in a million years, or two, we can come back and see I_Do_Care riding on a purple dinosaur! Bwahahahahah!:D according to your line of thinking hardly inplausible! lmao!

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I thought they had ALREADY evolved....into us.

Heck....I don't even like bananas!!

:doh:

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I thought they had ALREADY evolved....into us.

I guess that would mean that apes are still evolving to be humans. I guess we need to wait another 2 million years to see it.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Heck....I don't even like bananas!!
I DO like bananas! Uh oh, does that mean I evolved from an ape?:thinking: :doh: :D

[UPanIN]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
That is the million dollar question my friend!!!!! I can't answer it because this thread would be shut down in a heartbeat. But to take a risk I will ask you one simple and all encompassing question:
If what we know about God is true then why would there be any unbelief in the world?????

Because we are not robots.

You are given the free choice to believe the gift is real or not.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Hmmmm!!:thinking:

Still no answer to my question.....

That's what I thought!!:p


Several possible answers to your question. One might be that the evolution of a species does not always lead to the extinction of the original design. All things evolve to insure their survival. Perhaps the evolution of the ape was required in one area of the world while not so much in another. Another could be that we did not evolve from apes in the first place. Because of the huge gap in the human evolutionary process some might surmise that a outside force intergrated a dominate DNA into the ape species causing a very quick evolution towards modern man. (Space men who found apes sexy????). Whatever our orgins there can be no denying that man has evolved significantly over the last million years or so......

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Several possible answers to your question. One might be that the evolution of a species does not always lead to the extinction of the original design. All things evolve to insure their survival. Perhaps the evolution of the ape was required in one area of the world while not so much in another. Another could be that we did not evolve from apes in the first place. Because of the huge gap in the human evolutionary process some might surmise that a outside force intergrated a dominate DNA into the ape species causing a very quick evolution towards modern man. (Space men who found apes sexy????). Whatever our orgins there can be no denying that man has evolved significantly over the last million years or so......

I believe we have evolved significantly over the years too........I just don't personally believe we evolved from a different species.

I still think it started with Adam and Eve.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by UPanIN
Because we are not robots.

You are given the free choice to believe the gift is real or not.


The only real validity the "Free Choice" arguement has would be IF everyone did believe. But belief is not optional. Belief is the culmination of a lifetime of experiences and exposures. One cannot choose to believe. They either do or they don't based on what their character is. It is a little ironic that so many would accept the idea that God would put us in the dark with intentionally vague understandings of his desires and then mandate that we burn for an eternity if we aren't able to gain a understanding out of the incomplete and vailed influences he has over our lives.

[waterboy]

Disillusionment comes at a price. It is in our nature to question everything around us, especially those things which we do not understand. Man will continue to search for answers as long as we are still here to wonder. The difference between some folks and myself is, I can look around with wonder and amazement at all the beautiful things in this world and in the rest of our universe without having to know all the answers, and be comfortable with that. It's called faith. I can also look at the limitations of human's mental abilities and know that they will never find all the answers no matter how hard they try. I take comfort in my faith that we are here by intelligent design, not because some alien from another world came down and bred with apes, or whatever other hypothesis scientists can come up with. Too many things are left unexplained on either side of the equation to make anything other than an educated guess, so until it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt that we evolved, I will continue to believe what I believe. I'd hate to think that there's nothing after this life for us, and that the human spirit is just a figment of the imagination. That would leave us with no REAL purpose in life, but to propogate our species. For me, that's a scarier thought than my choice to believe in something that some do not believe is tangible.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by waterboy
Disillusionment comes at a price. It is in our nature to question everything around us, especially those things which we do not understand. Man will continue to search for answers as long as we are still here to wonder. The difference between some folks and myself is, I can look around with wonder and amazement at all the beautiful things in this world and in the rest of our universe without having to know all the answers, and be comfortable with that. It's called faith. I can also look at the limitations of human's mental abilities and know that they will never find all the answers no matter how hard they try. I take comfort in my faith that we are here by intelligent design, not because some alien from another world came down and bred with apes, or whatever other hypothesis scientists can come up with. Too many things are left unexplained on either side of the equation to make anything other than an educated guess, so until it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt that we evolved, I will continue to believe what I believe. I'd hate to think that there's nothing after this life for us, and that the human spirit is just a figment of the imagination. That would leave us with no REAL purpose in life, but to propogate our species. For me, that's a scarier thought than my choice to believe in something that some do not believe is tangible.

AMEN!!:clap: :clap:

[Farmersfan]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by waterboy
[B]Disillusionment comes at a price. I'd hate to think that there's nothing after this life for us, and that the human spirit is just a figment of the imagination.


So it is better in your mind to live a lifetime under the weight of a omni-present supreme being who holds the eternity of your soul for ransom pending the outcome of a lifetime spent trying to EARN your way into his good graces. Not to mention the fact that God would already know the path of your life from the moment of your conception so this whole life thing is a little redundant....
But that's just me!!!

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
So it is better in your mind to live a lifetime under the weight of a omni-present supreme being who holds the eternity of your soul for ransom pending the outcome of a lifetime spent trying to EARN your way into his good graces. Not to mention the fact that God would already know the path of your life from the moment of your conception so this whole life thing is a little redundant....
But that's just me!!! [/B]
I don't look at it quite like that. I am not trying to EARN my way into His good graces. If that were the case, I'd never be able to! All I did was profess my faith that He is real, and make a promise that I would do all I can to spread His word, and lead a life according to the inherent and innate morals He instilled in me (and all of you). That wasn't hard, either, mainly because of what I felt when His Spirit overcame me! Unless you have felt that feeling, you'll NEVER understand, or know what I felt. I think EVERYBODY needs to feel it! To say it was an enlightening experience would be an understatement! A life-changing, life-altering experience is what it was! I have absolutely NO feeling of bondage as someone described. Quite the contrary! It's actually of feeling of newfound freedom. God did give us free will to think for ourselves, and to make our own choices. It's up to you to believe anyway you want. How do you explain the fact that we do have a soul? Or is the human spirit something that can be explained away by science? Do you think the human spirit is an accident, or a figment of the imagination? Scientists, with their limited knowledge, are telling us that we are an accident. I choose not to believe that! When scientists PROVE something other than what the Bible says, then I may rethink my position, but until then..........:hand:

I'll also tell you this, I once was a skeptic just like you, so I do have an idea where you're coming from. Sometimes, you just have to believe in something more powerful than yourself, or mankind. If you look at all the complexities of life and the universe as a whole, you'll see that no other explanation makes more sense.

[UPanIN]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
The only real validity the "Free Choice" arguement has would be IF everyone did believe. But belief is not optional. Belief is the culmination of a lifetime of experiences and exposures. One cannot choose to believe. They either do or they don't based on what their character is. It is a little ironic that so many would accept the idea that God would put us in the dark with intentionally vague understandings of his desires and then mandate that we burn for an eternity if we aren't able to gain a understanding out of the incomplete and vailed influences he has over our lives.

You're not in the dark. You know the choices. You have decided not to believe for whatever reason or reasons you want to give.

The truth is that God desires that everyone would believe in Him and the gift he has offered through Jesus.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by I_Do_Care
I am spiritual, but I think it is silly to believe we KNOW what God believes, what he knows, wants and/or "IS" and especially all these evangelicals with their perverse obsession with the coming rapture! Why would believing in the rapture be "perverse"?:confused:

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by UPanIN
You're not in the dark. You know the choices. You have decided not to believe for whatever reason or reasons you want to give.

The truth is that God desires that everyone would believe in Him and the gift he has offered through Jesus. Everyone is invited to the party, but only some will choose to come.

[JasperDog94]

My thread has been officially :hijacktd: :hijacktd: :hijacktd:

[waterboy]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
My thread has been officially :hijacktd: :hijacktd: :hijacktd:
:thumbsup: :D

What was this thread about again?:confused: :doh:

[JasperDog94]

It does seem odd to me that in this thread I put my faith aside to ask a purely scientific question, yet I was told that my answer was based on my faith. When science doesn't fit what the one side wants to hear, resort to blaming someone's faith for their reasoning.

Oh well. There were at least a few people who made some interesting suggestions. I find debate healthy. I question aspects of my faith on a regular basis. We debate within the Christian community on elements of our faith. It's important for us to understand why we believe what we believe. I am not one who shies away from the tough questions. I don't always have the answers, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't ask the question.

[Bullaholic]

I may be overly simplistic in my view of creation/evolution, but here it is:

What difference does it make what method or time frame that God used to bring mankind into existence? I am a Christian, and therefore, believe that it is not beyond the power of the God I choose to believe in to accomplish things on a scale employing methods that we can only begin to understand more and more as we evolve. I think it is silly and self-serving for us to argue over how we were actually created/evolved by an omnipotent, loving God. It is not important that we know the "how" but only that we believe in the wonderment of God's marvelous handiwork.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
It does seem odd to me that in this thread I put my faith aside to ask a purely scientific question, yet I was told that my answer was based on my faith. When science doesn't fit what the one side wants to hear, resort to blaming someone's faith for their reasoning.

Oh well. There were at least a few people who made some interesting suggestions. I find debate healthy. I question aspects of my faith on a regular basis. We debate within the Christian community on elements of our faith. It's important for us to understand why we believe what we believe. I am not one who shies away from the tough questions. I don't always have the answers, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't ask the question.
Sorry, brother! A question such as the one you posed will always be open for debate simply because nobody has a definitive answer that can be proven. That debate can only be based on each individual's interpretation based on core beliefs, or lack thereof. Since science has no definitive answer, or proof, all we're left with is our faith. That's where the debate changed.

[waterboy]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
I may be overly simplistic in my view of creation/evolution, but here it is:

What difference does it make what method or time frame that God used to bring mankind into existence? I am a Christian, and therefore, believe that it is not beyond the power of the God I choose to believe in to accomplish things on a scale employing methods that we can only begin to understand more and more as we evolve. I think it is silly and self-serving for us to argue over how we were actually created/evolved by an omnipotent, loving God. It is not important that we know the "how" but only that we believe in the wonderment of God's marvelous handiwork.
:clap: :clap: Exactly.

The human race will always ask questions. It's hard for us as humans to accept that the majority of these questions are beyond our ability to answer, no matter how hard we try. That's why I choose to place my faith in an omnipotent, loving God. Seeing all the beauty surrounding us, the perfect way things are put together so that they not only give us life, but give us the ability to sustain it, is reason enough to KNOW that we are no accident. My faith does not compound me to believe in any particular time frame of events in our existence, either.

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
So it is better in your mind to live a lifetime under the weight of a omni-present supreme being who holds the eternity of your soul for ransom pending the outcome of a lifetime spent trying to EARN your way into his good graces. Not to mention the fact that God would already know the path of your life from the moment of your conception so this whole life thing is a little redundant....
But that's just me!!! [/B]

Faith is not a weight. In fact, it is quite the opposite. It lightens ones' load, gives life a purpose, and offers hope. Our ransom has already come, through a saviour who gave his life to save ours.

No one, but no one, can "EARN" a place in heaven. Grace is the only way and it is free, not earned. If one must earn a place in heaven then no one is good enough to get there. I have to accept that free grace, not earn it.

Some folks believe in predestination, some don't. I believe in self-determination and my own choices take me where I will end up. There are some who believe in Armenianism (free-will) and some who choose Calvinism (pre-destination or being marked for salvation). Just a difference in how we get there, not if we get there.

[garciap77]

Originally posted by ronwx5x
Faith is not a weight. In fact, it is quite the opposite. It lightens ones' load, gives life a purpose, and offers hope. Our ransom has already come, through a saviour who gave his life to save ours.

No one, but no one, can "EARN" a place in heaven. Grace is the only way and it is free, not earned. If one must earn a place in heaven then no one is good enough to get there. I have to accept that free grace, not earn it.

Some folks believe in predestination, some don't. I believe in self-determination and my own choices take me where I will end up. There are some who believe in Armenianism (free-will) and some who choose Calvinism (pre-destination or being marked for salvation). Just a difference in how we get there, not if we get there.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[WOS87]

Actually there are relatively frequent cases in which the mother's immune system will attack an embryo or fetus because of a different blood type. It's most common in pregnant females who are Rh negative.

http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,4429,00.html


I refuse to get into the abortion issue on this forum because I have my firm beliefs and don't feel the need to argue with anyone about them, because I can guarantee no one will change my mind.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by UPanIN
You're not in the dark. You know the choices. You have decided not to believe for whatever reason or reasons you want to give.

The truth is that God desires that everyone would believe in Him and the gift he has offered through Jesus.


So do you think you could make yourself believe in the Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy?
Answer honestly and you will have your answer to the whole thing.

[WOS87]

Originally posted by ronwx5x
Faith is not a weight. In fact, it is quite the opposite. It lightens ones' load, gives life a purpose, and offers hope. Our ransom has already come, through a saviour who gave his life to save ours.

No one, but no one, can "EARN" a place in heaven. Grace is the only way and it is free, not earned. If one must earn a place in heaven then no one is good enough to get there. I have to accept that free grace, not earn it.

Some folks believe in predestination, some don't. I believe in self-determination and my own choices take me where I will end up. There are some who believe in Armenianism (free-will) and some who choose Calvinism (pre-destination or being marked for salvation). Just a difference in how we get there, not if we get there.

Faith and Delusion are only a step away from each other. Faith is an unwavering belief which is not scientifically proven but accepted within the bounds of a particular culture or religion and a delusion is an unwavering belief which is not scientifically proven yet is NOT accepted within the bounds of a particular culture or religion.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
So do you think you could make yourself believe in the Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy?
Answer honestly and you will have your answer to the whole thing. I am truly sorry you feel this way.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
I am truly sorry you feel this way.


It was a question! Not a statement. You said you were not afraid to debate the subject so don't pity me because I believe differently than you. Just answer the question: Could you make yourself truly believe in the Easter Bunny??????

[WOS87]

Originally posted by WOS87
Faith and Delusion are only a step away from each other. Faith is an unwavering belief which is not scientifically proven but accepted within the bounds of a particular culture or religion and a delusion is an unwavering belief which is not scientifically proven yet is NOT accepted within the bounds of a particular culture or religion.

As a Psychiatrist who has treated several hundred people who have claimed to be the "True Messiah" or the all-knowing "God" (and has actually been physically injured by a couple of them), I'm quite skeptical of organized religion as a whole. This does not, however, mean that I don't have my own spirituality.

[sinton66]

If you choose to believe in the divine, you'll be given every reason to do so. If you choose not to believe, likewise. Like most things in life, it's the CHOICE that counts, and if you choose wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself.

[WOS87]

Originally posted by sinton66
If you choose to believe in the divine, you'll be given every reason to do so. If you choose not to believe, likewise. Like most things in life, it's the CHOICE that counts, and if you choose wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself.


And who is it that decides that you have chosen wrongly?

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by WOS87
And who is it that decides that you have chosen wrongly? Uhhhhh....God?

[WOS87]

The title of this thread does not match the current conversation. AND, I thought religion and politics were no-no's on this board?

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Could you make yourself truly believe in the Easter Bunny?????? Silly rabbit....trix are for kids. :D

Seeing as how I'm the Easter Bunny for my daughter, sure...I guess I could believe in myself.:D :D :D

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by WOS87
The title of this thread does not match the current conversation. AND, I thought religion and politics were no-no's on this board? The thread has been hijacked from its original intent.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by sinton66
If you choose to believe in the divine, you'll be given every reason to do so. If you choose not to believe, likewise. Like most things in life, it's the CHOICE that counts, and if you choose wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself.


You cannot choose to believe something that you don't believe. Come on! Use a little common sense. Answer the question about the Easter Bunny. Nobody believes in the Easter Bunny but according to you we can simply decide to believe and it will be so.

[rockdale80]

I will be the first to tell you that I believe in God and I try my best to live life by His word, but I do not agree with organized religion. I dont need someone else telling me what or how to believe. I pray that I am right and try to make the right decisions based on the teachings. If I am wrong I will find out in the afterlife. :)

[WOS87]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Uhhhhh....God?

And if there is no god?

[sinton66]

Originally posted by WOS87
And who is it that decides that you have chosen wrongly?

God, if that side is right "Society" if not?.

[WOS87]

Originally posted by rockdale80
I will be the first to tell you that I believe in God and I try my best to live life by His word, but I do not agree with organized religion. I dont need someone else telling me what or how to believe. I pray that I am right and try to make the right decisions based on the teachings. If I am wrong I will find out in the afterlife. :)



:clap: :clap: :clap:

[sinton66]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
You cannot choose to believe something that you don't believe. Come on! Use a little common sense. Answer the question about the Easter Bunny. Nobody believes in the Easter Bunny but according to you we can simply decide to believe and it will be so.

You use some common sense. How many books of the bible are written about the Easter Bunny?

[WOS87]

Originally posted by sinton66
You use some common sense. How many books of the bible are written about the Easter Bunny?

How many books of the bible are written about a boat that could contain every species of animal on the planet, or a seven-headed beast, or a man who survived being swallowed by a whale, or a man who lived over 900 years? You might as well equate the two

OK, I'm stopping now... the last thing I want is to get ROMed...

[sinton66]

The old testament is quite different from the new testament. Most people are wise enough to know that the books of the old testament were written by men, fallible men. Exaggeration may have been a common form of expression to make a point. It certainly is now. It just means you have to read between the lines. The new testament is more of "Testimony" of eye-witness accounts and much more straightforward.

[WOS87]

Originally posted by sinton66
The old testament is quite different from the new testament. Most people are wise enough to know that the books of the old testament were written by men, fallible men. Exaggeration may have been a common form of expression to make a point. It certainly is now. It just means you have to read between the lines. The new testament is more of "Testimony" of eye-witness accounts and much more straightforward.

I'm assuming you are excepting the book of Revelations, which is New Testament

[sinton66]

Originally posted by WOS87
I'm assuming you are excepting the book of Revelations

Yes. I am. This wasn't "eye-witness" testimony. It came in a dream.

[sinton66]

I kind of look at it this way, it's natural to believe in a "supreme being". Mankind in most cultures on earth has done so from the beginnings of "intelligent life". So, if one doesn't believe in the divine supreme being, logically, one must believe that man himself is the "supreme being". If that's the case, how far off the "truth" were your patients?:D

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by WOS87
And if there is no god?

Back to my quote I used earlier:

I would rather live my life as if there is a God and find out that there isn't, than live it like there is no God and find out that there is.

[bullfrog_alumni_02]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
I may be overly simplistic in my view of creation/evolution, but here it is:

What difference does it make what method or time frame that God used to bring mankind into existence? I am a Christian, and therefore, believe that it is not beyond the power of the God I choose to believe in to accomplish things on a scale employing methods that we can only begin to understand more and more as we evolve. I think it is silly and self-serving for us to argue over how we were actually created/evolved by an omnipotent, loving God. It is not important that we know the "how" but only that we believe in the wonderment of God's marvelous handiwork.

ill dole you out a good question...

i could really care less HOW i came to be the way i am or the person i am in the society i live in. I dont question what i believe God did or my salvation of the fact. my question is WHY? why would beings such as God wish for us to be with him? in all the vastness of space, and all of the ga-jillion possibilities, why choose us? to flip the question, why would the inverse of all that is good have equal desire for us to be with them? by that i mean the devil, satan, lucifer (whatever you call that entity)? is it power? because there is no special power that comes from being human. is it worship? because for all that is worth, a star could worship something or a planet could, by revolving around a central point. i have had experiences that many of you would prolly tell me that i have fallen off my rocker and need to go to a mental ward. that may be the case, however i pose to you the question to tell me why we are so important? why then, out of the over SIX BILLION people on this planet, would these things have happened to me? i realize that i have not given any specific details to what exactly happened, but i think a good number of the great minds on this board can come to some sort of a conclusion on their own and have a general idea to what im referring. and to caveat what i said about the 6B, i am confident im not the only one in the entire history of humanity that its happened to.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by sinton66
You use some common sense. How many books of the bible are written about the Easter Bunny?


That doesn't asnwer the question! If you don't believe in God then how in the heck would you believe what is written in the Bible????? Come on! The point I am trying to make is the assumption by almost all Christians that we have a "Free Will". The very idea that God gives us a choice is not a valid idea. The only way you can make a choice of faith is if you believe in the first place. Otherwise you are simply pretending. Many, many millions of "Christians" do just that. They "pretend" they believe because that is the acceptable thing to do. If you examine what the Church teaches you about God with a Logical brain you will see that very little of it holds water.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by sinton66
I kind of look at it this way, it's natural to believe in a "supreme being". Mankind in most cultures on earth has done so from the beginnings of "intelligent life". So, if one doesn't believe in the divine supreme being, logically, one must believe that man himself is the "supreme being". If that's the case, how far off the "truth" were your patients?:D


You miss a very important part of the puzzle here! The belief in a supreme being is a defense mechanism that mankind has in order to pacify that need for answers to questions that we were not advanced enough to answer in a logical manner. The fundemental qualifier for becoming "Sentient" is to become self aware. Becoming self aware is to ask "Who am I"? and "Why am I here"?. These questions were cosmic mysteries for mankind for millions of years but the veil is being pulled aside ever so slightly as man becomes more and more intelligent. I also believe there is a God. Is God a supreme Being who "Zapped" us into existence? I doubt it. I believe God would be more of a guiding force or spirit that exists in the recesses of the human conscience. But I can also come to grips with the idea of a supreme being as long as you don't preach the Bible to me. It appears obvious to me that the Bible was written by the church in order to keep the "Flocks" in line. Using Hellfire and Damnation to gain obediance is not a characterization of MY GOD.. Is it yours?

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
That doesn't asnwer the question! If you don't believe in God then how in the heck would you believe what is written in the Bible????? Come on! The point I am trying to make is the assumption by almost all Christians that we have a "Free Will". The very idea that God gives us a choice is not a valid idea. The only way you can make a choice of faith is if you believe in the first place. Otherwise you are simply pretending. Many, many millions of "Christians" do just that. They "pretend" they believe because that is the acceptable thing to do. If you examine what the Church teaches you about God with a Logical brain you will see that very little of it holds water.

I think this thread has run it's course....and I will add you to my prayer list...whether you like it or not!!:p

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by bullfrog_alumni_02
ill dole you out a good question...

i could really care less HOW i came to be the way i am or the person i am in the society i live in. I dont question what i believe God did or my salvation of the fact. my question is WHY? why would beings such as God wish for us to be with him? in all the vastness of space, and all of the ga-jillion possibilities, why choose us? to flip the question, why would the inverse of all that is good have equal desire for us to be with them? by that i mean the devil, satan, lucifer (whatever you call that entity)? is it power? because there is no special power that comes from being human. is it worship? because for all that is worth, a star could worship something or a planet could, by revolving around a central point. i have had experiences that many of you would prolly tell me that i have fallen off my rocker and need to go to a mental ward. that may be the case, however i pose to you the question to tell me why we are so important? why then, out of the over SIX BILLION people on this planet, would these things have happened to me? i realize that i have not given any specific details to what exactly happened, but i think a good number of the great minds on this board can come to some sort of a conclusion on their own and have a general idea to what im referring. and to caveat what i said about the 6B, i am confident im not the only one in the entire history of humanity that its happened to.

All great points:
The Bible teaches us that Satan was cast out of Heaven by God in a major battle. So why would a "creator of children he loves" agree to share dominion over those children with the "Outcast" he had previously banished? The very first book of the Bible tells us he put his beloved children in a garden with Satan and a bowl of candy and forbided them from eating the candy. Is it logical to assume that GOD didn't know they would eat from the tree of knowledge? Did God not know Satan was in garden with his creations? If it were truly his intent that they NOT eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge then why put the tree in the garden in the first place?????I also often wonder why would the creator build us with emotions of rage, jealously, pride, and all the others and then forbid us from acting on those emotions? What is the logical reason for creating us as sexual beings and then expecting us to overcome the very nature he created into us? Some will say those emotions are the work of Satan but that still infers that God allows Satan to work his will on the children that he supposedly loves beyond measure.
The major ironies and contradictions in the Bible are endless. I choose to accept it as symbolism and fear tactics from the church.

[UPanIN]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
You cannot choose to believe something that you don't believe. Come on! Use a little common sense. Answer the question about the Easter Bunny. Nobody believes in the Easter Bunny but according to you we can simply decide to believe and it will be so.

You are right no one can just decide to believe. I wish I had the words to convince you but that is not possible.

The only way for anyone to come to believe is through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. My friend I believe you are being prompted right now to believe. What you do with that is up to you. You may not be ready yet

I only tell you that 28 years ago I came to the fact that I had a choice to believe or not. I gave my life to God and have had peace that passes all understanding since. It's not what I can do it's what God has already done.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I think this thread has run it's course....and I will add you to my prayer list...whether you like it or not!!:p


1. Why the prayer? Are you saying God isn't aware of your desires? Or my lack of understanding?

2. Will your prayers convince God to take a different tact when it comes to dealing with me???? Will he try harder to grant me understanding if YOU ask him to?

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by bullfrog_alumni_02
ill dole you out a good question...

i could really care less HOW i came to be the way i am or the person i am in the society i live in. I dont question what i believe God did or my salvation of the fact. my question is WHY? why would beings such as God wish for us to be with him?

During my life, I have seen what started out as a child as a belief in God turn into a knowledge of God. I would be more than happy to share personal experiences and eye-witness reports of the evidence of God that I've seen in my lifetime, but unfortunately, I'm certain that most of it would be viewed as exaggeration and propaganda to further my personal belief rather than taken as evidence that changed a belief into knowledge. All that I can say about this topic is that for many people, "God" is a belief just like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny or the Loch Ness Monster or aliens or Big Foot or that a certain political party is better or whatever you want to believe. For me, God is not a belief, it's a knowledge just the same as I know that Christopher Columbus found America in 1492 or that George Washington was our First President.

[sinton66]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
You miss a very important part of the puzzle here! The belief in a supreme being is a defense mechanism that mankind has in order to pacify that need for answers to questions that we were not advanced enough to answer in a logical manner. The fundemental qualifier for becoming "Sentient" is to become self aware. Becoming self aware is to ask "Who am I"? and "Why am I here"?. These questions were cosmic mysteries for mankind for millions of years but the veil is being pulled aside ever so slightly as man becomes more and more intelligent. I also believe there is a God. Is God a supreme Being who "Zapped" us into existence? I doubt it. I believe God would be more of a guiding force or spirit that exists in the recesses of the human conscience. But I can also come to grips with the idea of a supreme being as long as you don't preach the Bible to me. It appears obvious to me that the Bible was written by the church in order to keep the "Flocks" in line. Using Hellfire and Damnation to gain obediance is not a characterization of MY GOD.. Is it yours?

In YOUR opinion it's a defense mechanism. We differ greatly on this. Perhaps my "faith" is a tad stronger than yours? I'm not real sold on most organized religions either for some of the very reasons mentioned previously. I have tried several and have finally found one that closely resembles what I believe. Even this one gives me cause occasionally. However, I'm wise enough to know there is NO ONE (not even me) on this rock that knows the absolute truth to anything, especially divine matters. There are LOTS of people who THINK they know.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by I_Do_Care
now try to find the missing link buried for thousands perhaps millions of years! LOL
Perhaps the "missing" link is one that was never there. :thinking: :thinking:

[sinton66]

Originally posted by bullfrog_alumni_02
ill dole you out a good question...

i could really care less HOW i came to be the way i am or the person i am in the society i live in. I dont question what i believe God did or my salvation of the fact. my question is WHY? why would beings such as God wish for us to be with him? in all the vastness of space, and all of the ga-jillion possibilities, why choose us? to flip the question, why would the inverse of all that is good have equal desire for us to be with them? by that i mean the devil, satan, lucifer (whatever you call that entity)? is it power? because there is no special power that comes from being human. is it worship? because for all that is worth, a star could worship something or a planet could, by revolving around a central point. i have had experiences that many of you would prolly tell me that i have fallen off my rocker and need to go to a mental ward. that may be the case, however i pose to you the question to tell me why we are so important? why then, out of the over SIX BILLION people on this planet, would these things have happened to me? i realize that i have not given any specific details to what exactly happened, but i think a good number of the great minds on this board can come to some sort of a conclusion on their own and have a general idea to what im referring. and to caveat what i said about the 6B, i am confident im not the only one in the entire history of humanity that its happened to.

The HUMAN understanding is that God is looking for "gratification". The theory is that his gratification comes from creating beings in his own likeness, giving them a free will, and allowing them to choose to believe in him and serve his purposes. The inverse, therefore, is necessary if there is a choice to be made.

That said, however, if God is an all-powerful supreme being, it is plausable to believe that his thoughts are so far above mankind's that they are impossible for human minds to comprehend, so again, no one on Earth could know for sure.

There have always been questions about why a loving God would allow trials and tribulations to befall humans. Why would he allow war or diseases or many other examples? I suspect there always will be questions about this. As I stated earlier, if one looks for reasons to believe or disbelieve, one will find them.

I chose to believe many, many years ago. I have had at least one experience in my lifetime that I am positive I had no control whatsoever over and was delivered from by God's intervention at my request. I can tell anyone for sure, this one experience affirmed and strengthened my faith more than one can imagine.