Being Arrested

[formercougar18]

There are a times when high school players have had their problems with the law. Some even go to jail for an amount of time. How do some of these kids get to come back and play? What are we teaching some of these kids when the first day they get out, their out on the practicce field preparing for the next game. Is there a rule about this? and if theres not should there be? if not after the first time, what if he is arrested on a second violation? I know that at China Spring if you even got in trouble inn class you weren't playing in the game, no matter how good you were.

[trojan37]

Expect this thread to get locked.

[formercougar18]

yea i didnt know if it would, i didnt mention any names or anything just wondering if there are any rules and if anyone out there has any information about it

[Electus Unus]

http://www.topnews.in/health/files/depressed.jpg

[SWMustang]

Quick - Get Rita on the horn. We've got a code red!

[PPSTATEBOUND]

Originally posted by formercougar18
There are a times when high school players have had their problems with the law. Some even go to jail for an amount of time. How do some of these kids get to come back and play? What are we teaching some of these kids when the first day they get out, their out on the practicce field preparing for the next game. Is there a rule about this? and if theres not should there be? if not after the first time, what if he is arrested on a second violation? I know that at China Spring if you even got in trouble inn class you weren't playing in the game, no matter how good you were.

Oh...... its "AMERCIA" at its finest:doh: dont you love it? :hairpunk:

[Phil C]

It is a serious subject though. It is a very unfortunate subject. You have to remember that there are some criminals who are victims of society. Others are just plain criminals.

[Phil C]

Also you have to remember that

IF GUNS ARE OUTLAWED ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS!!!

:mad:

[pirate4state]

I love all you want to be mods.

It's real simple, you can have these type of discussions without naming names. I think it's a good topic. It isn't one that is going to be solved on this board, but it's okay to discuss it so long as you don't start talking about xyz player or xyz coach.

I agree completely, for once :D, with what ETB has to say!

[Bullaholic]

Off the top of my head---here's the way I would like to see it handled:

More than (3) misdemeanor convictions= you're gone
(1) Felony conviction= you're gone

[44INAROW]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Off the top of my head---here's the way I would like to see it handled:

More than (3) misdemeanor convictions= you're gone
(1) Felony conviction= you're gone
I agree Bull but the problem is - what do you do when you have 3 Felony arrests/indictments but NO convictions....YET.... what do you do with the "kid" in the meantime..........

oops I wasn't going to get involved in this......... :D

[trojan37]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
No,there is no rule.
Alot of coaches feel that a kid is innocent until proven guilty. To me, it depends on the kid. If it's a kid with a history of issues, then he's suspended until cleared of all charges. If it's the first issue the kid has had, then, depending on the crime, he'll probably be allowed to play until proven guilty. It's treated like any other offense, no kid is ever dismissed b/c of one incident. It usually results from a history of problems.
Besides, alot of times, we're the last chance that kid has.

Sometimes people don't want help. When you have the talent to be a D1 prospect, you've been given the chance to come back and play and continue to find a way to screw it up time and again, then I feel that they should not be allowed to play. You are bringing a black eye to the whole team because of one individual and it's not fair to the other players on that team.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by 44INAROW
I agree Bull but the problem is - what do you do when you have 3 Felony arrests/indictments but NO convictions....YET.... what do you do with the "kid" in the meantime..........

oops I wasn't going to get involved in this......... :D

In our legal system there is a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and I think that is what we must use until there is a conviction. Therefore, no conviction= no crime, just like in football--no penalty=no foul.

[PPSTATEBOUND]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
In our legal system there is a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and I think that is what we must use until there is a conviction. Therefore, no conviction= no crime, just like in football--no penalty=no foul.


Another great....."AMERICA AT ITS FINEST"!!!!!!!..So Joe blow blows your dads head off......he is still inocent in the eyes of the "AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM" so lets let him play...he still has not ben proven guilty in a court of law..... even though god and ten witnesses watched him pull the trigger........Lets put this fine fellow in a court of "AMERCIAN LAW" where his attorney and he might have a good one...can waste numerous tax payers dollars......because he is inocent until proven guilty........what a crock!:eek:

[44INAROW]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
In our legal system there is a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and I think that is what we must use until there is a conviction. Therefore, no conviction= no crime, just like in football--no penalty=no foul.

usually you and I agree but I disagree in this instance. The 1st indictment/arrest maybe a "fluke", the 2nd - hhmm and the 3rd one.... he'd be history -
dang it - I am not going to let myself get in this discussion anymore. It's too distracting :D

ps - if this hypathetical situation happened in Cuero, Texas - he'd of been out the 1st indictment - I have NO DOUBT
and I spelled hypathetical that way for a reason ;) because it IS pathetic

[waterboy]

Let's just say the kid is going down the WRONG path, and will end up in the joint if something doesn't change quickly. The only one that has the power to stop this downward spiral is HIMSELF. Does this kid WANT to end up in prison? It sure looks like it!:thmbdwn:

[Phil C]

Originally posted by PPSTATEBOUND
Another great....."AMERICA AT ITS FINEST"!!!!!!!..So Joe blow blows your dads head off......he is still inocent in the eyes of the "AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM" so lets let him play...he still has not ben proven guilty in a court of law..... even though god and ten witnesses watched him pull the trigger........Lets put this fine fellow in a court of "AMERCIAN LAW" where his attorney and he might have a good one...can waste numerous tax payers dollars......because he is inocent until proven guilty........what a crock!:eek:

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIMS OF SOCIETY??!!

:mad:

[pirate4state]

Again, it isn't gonna be solved on this board and any amount of B&M you do on HERE isn't gonna change a darn thing! Why waste your energy on something you obviously have such disdain for?

Sure it sucks, but life ain't fair! I'm sure you are all well aware of that FACT!

[PPSTATEBOUND]

:clap:

[cshscougar08]

The problem with all this for me isn't whether you're innocent or guilty of the charges that are coming at you. It's the fact that you are putting yourself in those situations time and time again. That's my problem with any high schooler that gets arrested. Whether he is guilty or not really doesn't matter to me. He's been arrested and in high school, you shouldn't be off doing things that will get you arrested! Just my two cents.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by pirate4state
Again, it isn't gonna be solved on this board and any amount of B&M you do on HERE isn't gonna change a darn thing! Why waste your energy on something you obviously have such disdain for?

Sure it sucks, but life ain't fair! I'm sure you are all well aware of that FACT!

What do we solve on this board? Nothing that I'm aware of. It's just a place to chew the fat. Now let us have our fun.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
But it's not always so cut and dried.
A HS senior gets his g/f pregnant. She doesn't want her parents to be mad, so she yells rape. Kid gets arrested. It all eventually comes out, but in the meantime, you've already condemed the kid for being accused.
Saw a potential D1 athlete lose his opportunity b/c of this very incident.
Trojan, that's why I said if he has a history of problems, sometimes you just have to cut'em loose.

I don't know if college would be a good idea for that kid. Apparently condoms are a baffling concept for him.

[cshscougar08]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
But it's not always so cut and dried.
A HS senior gets his g/f pregnant. She doesn't want her parents to be mad, so she yells rape. Kid gets arrested. It all eventually comes out, but in the meantime, you've already condemed the kid for being accused.
Saw a potential D1 athlete lose his opportunity b/c of this very incident.
Trojan, that's why I said if he has a history of problems, sometimes you just have to cut'em loose.

Ya know, in some situations like that, it's unfortunate. But the thing is, no one thinks of the consequences of their actions. That's a great example of that right there ETB. You cut kids loose for not thinking. That's the problem.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
If they always worked 100%, I wouldn't be here.

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when that conversation with your folks took place. :)

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by SWMustang
What do we solve on this board? Nothing that I'm aware of. It's just a place to chew the fat. Now let us have our fun.

I'm sorry, I didn't know this subject was considered "fun" for you. By all means -- knock yourself out!

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by PPSTATEBOUND
Another great....."AMERICA AT ITS FINEST"!!!!!!!..So Joe blow blows your dads head off......he is still inocent in the eyes of the "AMERICAN LEGAL SYSTEM" so lets let him play...he still has not ben proven guilty in a court of law..... even though god and ten witnesses watched him pull the trigger........Lets put this fine fellow in a court of "AMERCIAN LAW" where his attorney and he might have a good one...can waste numerous tax payers dollars......because he is inocent until proven guilty........what a crock!:eek:

First of all--let me clarify my beliefs. I am not a card-carrying member of the ACLU, and I would be classed politically as an older, conservative Texan.

I have discussed this guilt-innocence thing with many lawyers over the years and I am forced to agree with them that this is how the system works that we all live under. If you don't like the system---change it.

In the old west, many an innocent person was hung by lynch mobs who were satified that they knew beyond the shadow of a doubt of the guilt of a certain individual.

Who would we depend upon in our society to decide the absolute guilt or innocence of an individual---you PPStatebound? Are you that clairvoiant?

All of you hardliners want somebody locked up or put to death until it is one of your own---then you want "justice".

[PPSTATEBOUND]

LOL........Let me clarify myself as someone who thinks the legal system is unfixably broken.....like America and think the Gov. is only here to protect the people.....not hang on my ball sack...I know there is NOTHING PPSTATBOUND can DO about changing it.........I'm just a wittle guy........but I do thank you for letting me know "you" think I can.....To much money wasted, innocent people in jail all over the USA and vise versa...."STILL" and we dont ride horses these days............If I witnessed someone blow your head off then there is no reason that he/she is "not guilty" until he goes to court and wastes time and money="broken system".......This guy in question will not be playing football for me anytime soon...I could care less how the "BROKEN" AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM WORKS.:inlove:

Peace luv and wet dreams for all!:eek:

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Bullaholic



All of you hardliners want somebody locked up or put to death until it is one of your own---then you want "justice".

Are you talking about before a conviction is handed down? I assure you I have no qualms about "one of my own" being locked up. I wish they'd lock up my cousin who will never fly right

[PPSTATEBOUND]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
First of all--let me clarify my beliefs. I am not a card-carrying member of the ACLU, and I would be classed politically as an older, conservative Texan.

I have discussed this guilt-innocence thing with many lawyers over the years and I am forced to agree with them that this is how the system works that we all live under. If you don't like the system---change it.

In the old west, many an innocent person was hung by lynch mobs who were satified that they knew beyond the shadow of a doubt of the guilt of a certain individual.

Who would we depend upon in our society to decide the absolute guilt or innocence of an individual---you PPStatebound? Are you that clairvoiant?

All of you hardliners want somebody locked up or put to death until it is one of your own---then you want "justice".

I would imagine your father would have slapped the dog mess out of you if this guy was still palying on your team while...his innocent or guilty trial went..on..............Our system is nothing short of a circus!!!!!!!!

click on this...... http://www.courttv.com/casefiles/simpson/

To prove my point.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by pirate4state
I'm sorry, I didn't know this subject was considered "fun" for you. By all means -- knock yourself out!

not the subject - just the freedom

[Global Swarming]

[QUOTE] I don't believe being a so called victim of society is an excuse for anything. Especially breaking the law. I'm a single dad of 2 teenaged boys and I've told them both that I don't want them to use the excuse about their mom not being around for a reason to screw up. Kids make decisions on their own valicions. I think that it's a cop out to blame what they do on their parents being split up instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. That's just my thought.

[GreenMonster]

Here is my point of view. I don't know if it's right or wrong, and I certainly don't think that my district would agree with my position either. I just think that we need to be careful with how we treat these kids. It is in our US constitution that we are indeed "innocent until proven guilty" so why should a high school student be treated any differently? If a student is arrested why should we hasten to action? The police departments across the country make mistakes too. I think that we shouldn't necessarily punish a student or even suspend a student from extra-curriculars until the charges have been proven true, hence the "innocent" part of "innocent until proven guilty." Many times it is the extra-curriculars that keep students out of trouble by tying up their idle time in very constructive life lessons. Let the courts do their job to determine guilt or innocence and let the schools do their job of educating and preparing our students to be productive members of society. Too many times a school has decided a student's guilt and disallowed them to continue to participate and the charges get dropped from lack of evidence or the police got the wrong guy etc. Just tell them that those kinds of actions will not be tolerated, what the punishment will be if found guilty, and let the judiciary process do what it is intended to do. That's my $.02 on the subject.

[GreenMonster]

Here is my point of view. I don't know if it's right or wrong, and I certainly don't think that my district would agree with my position either. I just think that we need to be careful with how we treat these kids. It is in our US constitution that we are indeed "innocent until proven guilty" so why should a high school student be treated any differently? If a student is arrested why should we hasten to action? The police departments across the country make mistakes too. I think that we shouldn't necessarily punish a student or even suspend a student from extra-curriculars until the charges have been proven true, hence the "innocent" part of "innocent until proven guilty." Many times it is the extra-curriculars that keep students out of trouble by tying up their idle time in very constructive life lessons. Let the courts do their job to determine guilt or innocence and let the schools do their job of educating and preparing our students to be productive members of society. Too many times a school has decided a student's guilt and disallowed them to continue to participate and the charges get dropped from lack of evidence or the police got the wrong guy etc. Just tell them that those kinds of actions will not be tolerated, what the punishment will be if found guilty, and let the judiciary process do what it is intended to do. That's my $.02 on the subject.

[SWMustang]

You've now given us 4 cents on the topic :D

[OldBison75]

I've been in law enforcement for nearly 30 years and have a different perspective than the coach or the father--even though I have three kids. When a person that works for a reputable organization or government entity is charged and indicted on a felony crime and some misdemeanors, he is suspended (either with or without pay) until guilt or innocence is proven. In my own case, I was charged with a felony and have been fired and blacklisted from working in my profession even though I have had no trial. A high school kid accused and indicted of a felony should be suspended from activities. I know there are tons of alternative education programs in different districts that have different rules, but if a kid is indicted on a crime against a person (rape, aggravated assault, etc.) I don't want him or her in the same class room with my kids.

The kid has to learn that sometimes the impression of guilt will cause him punishment and that can be the deterrent for staying away from those situations. Ultimately, some kids can't ever learn right from wrong and if we coddle them and allow them to act like nothing was wrong all the time, they learn that society may punish them but they can remain a part of the mainstream school and be a thug and hero at the same time.

[Farmersfan]

I won't comment on the innocent or guilty portion of the discussion but want to say that I personally don't think athletics should be considered Extra-curricular. If the kid is suspended from sports then he should also be placed in a alternative education system. If he is good enough to go to school with my child then he is good enough to play on the football team. That Bad-Seed interacts with a heck of a lot more people in class than on the field. Some you get indignate as hell at the idea of the kid playing on the team but don't seem to care that he is spending 8 hours with your child in Math, Science and other subjects. It boils down to this question: By suspending the kid from football are you punishing the kid or are you protecting the other kids, school, team or whatever? If it's a punishment then you must prove him guilty first and if it's a protection for the rest then he must be completely removed........

[Emerson1]

If he/she is charged as an adult, how is it any different then discussing Pacman Jones and whoever happens to be the topic of conversation?

[44INAROW]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I won't comment on the innocent or guilty portion of the discussion but want to say that I personally don't think athletics should be considered Extra-curricular. If the kid is suspended from sports then he should also be placed in a alternative education system. If he is good enough to go to school with my child then he is good enough to play on the football team. That Bad-Seed interacts with a heck of a lot more people in class than on the field. Some you get indignate as hell at the idea of the kid playing on the team but don't seem to care that he is spending 8 hours with your child in Math, Science and other subjects. It boils down to this question: By suspending the kid from football are you punishing the kid or are you protecting the other kids, school, team or whatever? If it's a punishment then you must prove him guilty first and if it's a protection for the rest then he must be completely removed........

the particular "situation" that is being discussed - the young man was in alternative eduacation the entire football season

oops there I go again :doh:

[OldBison75]

Alternative education is a misrepresented concept in some districts. If the kid is AEP assigned, but still allowed to practice with a school team and attend extra-curricuar school activities, it is not alternative education according to the state standards. This kid did participate in practices and attended games, which would seem to mean he was not in alternative education. If I understand the situation correctly, this district has a two level system of disciplinary assignment, one is similar to in-school suspension and the other is true AEP. ISS just leaves him out of the required suspension and attendance at school activities.

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by 44INAROW
the particular "situation" that is being discussed - the young man was in alternative eduacation the entire football season

oops there I go again :doh:

i can help you out with your problem

[Bullaholic]

I would add:

1. I agree that our legal system is far from perfect---but it IS our system. Timely araignment and trial are lacking.

2. Why should an accusation or even an arrest possibly destroy the private or professional life of another? The best example of this is in the teaching field. Just about everyone knows that an accusation of sexual misconduct by a male teacher made by a female student is the end of the male teacher's career---even if he is proven innocent of the charges.

3. I agree that any individual posing potential harm to themselves or others must be held in captivity until trial.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by 44INAROW
the particular "situation" that is being discussed - the young man was in alternative eduacation the entire football season

oops there I go again :doh:


Well that is a whole different animal. I thought we were discussing a hypothetical situation. In the case you mention then of course the kid should be removed from the team also. The reverse is also true that if he isn't good enough to attend school with the other kids then he also isn't good enough to play on the team.............

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by PPSTATEBOUND
I would imagine your father would have slapped the dog mess out of you if this guy was still palying on your team while...his innocent or guilty trial went..on..............Our system is nothing short of a circus!!!!!!!!

click on this...... http://www.courttv.com/casefiles/simpson/

To prove my point.


You are correct. It is a circus. But it is the best circus in the world. I think our legal system would be so much better served if LAWYERS were held accountable. But that's a different discussion.

[icu812]

OK this has more to do with drugs than being arrested. But I know a student that was randomly tested and was positive for weed like his freshman or soph. year. He was manditorly tested over and over and then tested positive for weed again before football started his senior year. This school has a 2 strikes and you out policy so the kid was kicked out of all athletics. He was a D1 type talent. Family situation was not good at all. I really felt for the kid because he had alot of things to overcome in life. His brother overcame and is playing college ball. I think he made a good example for the other kids of what could be lost. But still I wonder if there was a better way. How many chances should we give a student? One? Two? Three??

[coachc45]

To clear a few things up... it is in the UIL guidelines that if a kid is charged/indicted of a felony then the student WILL NOT participate in any UIL activity. This suspension is until disposition of the case. This suspension is not considered a punitive suspension but one that will allow the student the opportunity to put all his/her energies into the defense of the charges.

It is also in the THSCA code of ethics.

So the entire argument is moot.

There is also a law on the books if a student is charged with a felony he is automatically placed into a discipline alternative education program for a minimum of 60 days or until disposition of the charges.

These are mandatory.

[coachc45]

Originally posted by icu812
OK this has more to do with drugs than being arrested. But I know a student that was randomly tested and was positive for weed like his freshman or soph. year. He was manditorly tested over and over and then tested positive for weed again before football started his senior year. This school has a 2 strikes and you out policy so the kid was kicked out of all athletics. He was a D1 type talent. Family situation was not good at all. I really felt for the kid because he had alot of things to overcome in life. His brother overcame and is playing college ball. I think he made a good example for the other kids of what could be lost. But still I wonder if there was a better way. How many chances should we give a student? One? Two? Three??

I know this from the coaches at van..... he tested positive 3 times.
I believe that they did the right thing. Most schools have the same policy... 1st test - 6 week suspension, 2nd - one year, 3rd - dismissal from program. I feel for the kid too, but the policy is in writing.... he knew the consequences... and yet he chose to violate it again. No matter how you cut it, the choice was his alone to make, and when he made it he took the choice out of the coach's hands.

[West22]

First let me say that I support the sports programs in the school systems .I think in a lot of times the coaches are the only role models alot of kids have .As bad as it may be, I feel that when a coach allows players who do not live up to the standards that the team has they should be warned and later removed if the behavier or abuse continues .This would apply to players reguardles of how good they are. .I think to keep them sets a bad example for the other players .Also I do not understand what has happend to the passing grades? I cannot understand how someone who could not attend class could be passing?

[icu812]

Originally posted by coachc45
I know this from the coaches at van..... he tested positive 3 times.
I believe that they did the right thing. Most schools have the same policy... 1st test - 6 week suspension, 2nd - one year, 3rd - dismissal from program. I feel for the kid too, but the policy is in writing.... he knew the consequences... and yet he chose to violate it again. No matter how you cut it, the choice was his alone to make, and when he made it he took the choice out of the coach's hands.

Thanks for the response. Sad thing is the kid had a lot of support from several in the community helping however they could. What a waste. I still think he's basically a good kid that made several bad choices and I wish him the best.

[lostaussie]

Originally posted by Phil C
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIMS OF SOCIETY??!!

:mad: what exactly is a victim of society? granted, i grew up in a nice neighborhood in Gilmer...............but, my whole life i have made choices.................just like these socalled victims of society. life is all about choices. you either make the right ones or the wrong ones. everyone has choices.

[Global Swarming]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil C
[B]BUT WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIMS OF SOCIETY??!!


Everyone can claim to be a victim of society in some way or another. I'm a victim of being a fat one- legged 40 year old man. But that doesn't give me the right to break the law. People are only victims if they allow themselves to be. There are alot of people out there who have had hard lives and harsh circumstances happen to them. But that in no way gives them a free pass when it comes to breaking the law. That's the problem with kids today. They aren't held accountable for the things that they do. People are too willing to brush it off and say poor kid his dad isn't around so it's excusable for him to act the way he does. I just don't buy it.

[waterboy]

:iagree: Well said. I don't buy all that crap, either. When I was young I was taught that a person is judged by the company he/she keeps, sometimes unjustly, but..... If the people you hang out with are of a criminal element, chances are you will get in trouble, too. Every person is, or should be, held accountable for his/her own actions.......It's called responsibility. Being a "victim of society" is a cop-out in my opinion. Poor choices by a person does not automatically make you a "victim of society". Nobody held a gun to his head and told him to do this crime or die. He consciously made a choice to commit a crime, so he should bear FULL responsibility for his actions, without any coddling comments about him being a so-called "victim of society".

[pirate4state]

LOL "victim of society" is one of Phil's tag lines

[Global Swarming]

I know that here in Caldwell, if you get put in AEP; you're not allowed to step foot on campus. You're not allowed to go to any school sponsered event until you were let back into school. So, if this kid was still able to participate in athletics, I doubt if he was in AEP. It may be different at other schools but it shouldn't be. Reiterrating my previous point that kids are not held accountable.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by pirate4state
LOL "victim of society" is one of Phil's tag lines


I can't believe he generated three responses. Come on Lost Aussie - you should know better!

[Buckeye1980]

Here is my 2 cents (for what it is worth!) Felony ? Misdemeanor? Why is it different? Assault is a misdemeanor..theft can be felony ....so you can beat the crap out someone and it is OK, unless you use their credit card , which is a felony ....

First arrest ...suspension from all extra curicclular activities...that is the way I fell and my mind will not be changed....and I work in "the system". If you do not put yourself in that position , you have nothing to worry about

As far as "victims of society" ( And I grew up in that same neighborhood as LostAussie) that is an EXCUSE! They made their choices, did the "victims of CRIMES" have a choice?

[footballforlife]

I wonder how may on this site know fact or they simply post based on second or third hand knowledge. The student was in AEP - OldBison - and as a result never stepped foot on the game or practice field until the charges were dropped and he was taken out of AEP.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by footballforlife
I wonder how may on this site know fact or they simply post based on second or third hand knowledge. The student was in AEP - OldBison - and as a result never stepped foot on the game or practice field until the charges were dropped and he was taken out of AEP.

What are YOU talking about? This is all theoretical talk in this thread. Any similarity between actual persons is purely a coincidence.