This is not intended to be a political thread.

[PPHSfan]

Just want some non biased bi-partisan discussion.

What would be your thoughts on abolishing the IRS and the Income Tax and replacing it with a Federal Sales Tax.

Here are a couple of my thoughts.

The State Comptrollers are already in place, so collection would be a simple transition.

With a Federal Sales Tax. EVERYONE would be a taxpayer, including Illegal Immigrant Workers, Drug Dealers, and a bunch of Construction Workers. ( this is not meant to single out or call anyone names, just a few examples)

The wealthiest people would pay the most taxes, while the less fortunate would not have as large a burden.

I would propose things like groceries, medicine, health care, school supplies, etc. be tax free. Folks who don't want to pay any taxes can stay home, cook their own meals, and watch free television, as I would tax dining out and cable.

I could go on and on, but would like to hear your thoughts.

Before you start throwing number at me however, I don't know how much the tax rate would have to be, but I know personally that I would gladly pay 25 percent if I didn't have to report my income.

Plus, think about this. Nobody would ever have to know how much money you make, and nobody would be forced to "HIDE" any assests.

[Bullaholic]

No arguement here, PPHSFan---the sales tax is the fairest form of taxation. The only problem you run into would be the failure to report of some of those collecting or not charging the tax.

[SintonFan]

Many have tossed around a 10% tax would suffice and actually could increase current revenue.
I agree with you, but it won't happen...:(

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
No arguement here, PPHSFan---the sales tax is the fairest form of taxation. The only problem you run into would be the failure to report of some of those collecting or not charging the tax.

I would offer Federal Rewards to the whistle blowers, and have anyone selling something without charging tax sentenced to hard labor. And I would let the RICCO guys take everything they owned and sell it on eBay.

[PPHSfan]

Just think about how much money would be saved by abolishing the IRS and H&R Block. LOL

[BreckTxLonghorn]

I've always been a supporter of this, but was given a question one day that was hard for me to answer. Be good to hear your thoughts:


What does this do to the middle class?

Upper incomes can handle because they make so much more, even by spending more they still have more to put away.


Lower incomes get a tax break, and it won't really affect their life as this demo is less likely to go out/ buy expensive cable & utilities/ random purchases/ dinners somewhere.


But the middle class...they have a choice to make. They either take a hit and save less because many things cost more, or they change their lifestyle to fit with the funds. Either way, they're not able to put any more $$ away, and it could affect 'happiness' because they're unable to enjoy things they once did.


Thoughts?

[PPHSfan]

My thoughts are that once all of the numbers were crunched the "middle class" would have about the same burden they do now. The wealthy would pay even more than they do already, but would feel like they were being treated fairly for a change, and those less fortunate would pay next to nothing as most necessities would be tax free. I really don't think the rate would be as high as people may think once all of the fat was trimmed that this program would take care of. I wonder just how much money is spent each year in the process of "collecting" income tax?

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Just want some non biased bi-partisan discussion.

What would be your thoughts on abolishing the IRS and the Income Tax and replacing it with a Federal Sales Tax.

Here are a couple of my thoughts.

The State Comptrollers are already in place, so collection would be a simple transition.

With a Federal Sales Tax. EVERYONE would be a taxpayer, including Illegal Immigrant Workers, Drug Dealers, and a bunch of Construction Workers. ( this is not meant to single out or call anyone names, just a few examples)

The wealthiest people would pay the most taxes, while the less fortunate would not have as large a burden.

I would propose things like groceries, medicine, health care, school supplies, etc. be tax free. Folks who don't want to pay any taxes can stay home, cook their own meals, and watch free television, as I would tax dining out and cable.

I could go on and on, but would like to hear your thoughts.

Before you start throwing number at me however, I don't know how much the tax rate would have to be, but I know personally that I would gladly pay 25 percent if I didn't have to report my income.

Plus, think about this. Nobody would ever have to know how much money you make, and nobody would be forced to "HIDE" any assests. another idea would to be to Tax some Higher income items. Planes, cars over a certain amount, all RVs of all kinds, Pickups over a certain amount, all electonics, Houses in some areas that fall over a certain amount over the average of what a house costs in the area that a family is using for home residence, those used for rental property could be taxed.. doubling a tax for junk food , and Tobaco.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
another idea would to be to Tax some Higher income items. Planes, cars over a certain amount, all RVs of all kinds, Pickups over a certain amount, all electonics, Houses in some areas that fall over a certain amount over the average of what a house costs in the area that a family is using for home residence, those used for rental property could be taxed.. doubling a tax for junk food , and Tobaco.
.
So no matter what, the "rich" should pay at a higher rate.:thinking:

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
another idea would to be to Tax some Higher income items. Planes, cars over a certain amount, all RVs of all kinds, Pickups over a certain amount, all electonics, Houses in some areas that fall over a certain amount over the average of what a house costs in the area that a family is using for home residence, those used for rental property could be taxed.. doubling a tax for junk food , and Tobaco.

gotta make sure the rich pay!!!!!

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by SWMustang
gotta make sure the rich pay!!!!! Well Then why not tax everything if you feel like it would not be a good Idea.:rolleyes:

[Phantom Stang]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
another idea would to be to Tax some Higher income items. Planes, cars over a certain amount, all RVs of all kinds, Pickups over a certain amount, all electonics, Houses in some areas that fall over a certain amount over the average of what a house costs in the area that a family is using for home residence, those used for rental property could be taxed.. doubling a tax for junk food , and Tobaco.
Ok, when people quit buying so much of this frivolous stuff, how is the government going to raise necessary revenue then?
Also, where are the employees of the companies that produce these luxuries going to find work when they lose their jobs?

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by Phantom Stang
Ok, when people quit buying so much of this frivolous stuff, how is the government going to raise necessary revenue then?
Also, where are the employees of the companies that produce these luxuries going to find work when they lose their jobs?

Do you honestly think people will stop buying things because of a tax? Folks are not going to pay MORE tax, they are just going to pay it in a fairer and more efficient manner. Well they would if this plan actually got put into law.

[Ranger Mom]

PPHSFan for president!!!

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
PPHSFan for president!!!

No thanks.

That guy makes like 260 grand a year.:D

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Phantom Stang
Ok, when people quit buying so much of this frivolous stuff, how is the government going to raise necessary revenue then?
Also, where are the employees of the companies that produce these luxuries going to find work when they lose their jobs? come on..... You really think the guys who buy cadilacs or lexus or BMWs will stop buying them? no way. even some middle class folks will buy those kinds of things and pay the tax. according to your argument people would stop smoking and dipping?? no.. how about buying the second or 3rd vacation home? Still gonna do that too. Will they stop buying the big screen tvs??? nope.

[PPHSfan]

My contention is that folks will have MORE money to spend when EVERYONE starts paying taxes.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by BreckTxLonghorn

Lower incomes get a tax break, and it won't really affect their life as this demo is less likely to go out/ buy expensive cable & utilities/ random purchases/ dinners somewhere
Thoughts?


Common sense would indicate that, but that's not true. Poor people seem to always have cable and big TV's. 30K dollar cars parked in front of 25K dollar homes isn't that uncommon either.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SWMustang
Common sense would indicate that, but that's not true. Poor people seem to always have cable and big TV's. 30K dollar cars parked in front of 25K dollar homes isn't that uncommon either. thats also an anecdotal stigma! there are far more crappy cars parked IN the yard in front of 25k homes. I don't think ALL those on Wall Street are Madoffs, or Ken Lays

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by SWMustang
Common sense would indicate that, but that's not true. Poor people seem to always have cable and big TV's. 30K dollar cars parked in front of 25K dollar homes isn't that uncommon either. and they should pay taxes on those kinds of items. if they dont want to then buy the 18k dollar car and settle for a 27 inch tv.... its easy.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
come on..... You really think the guys who buy cadilacs or lexus or BMWs will stop buying them? no way. even some middle class folks will buy those kinds of things and pay the tax. according to your argument people would stop smoking and dipping?? no.. how about buying the second or 3rd vacation home? Still gonna do that too. Will they stop buying the big screen tvs??? nope.

I'm confused - are you for or against a flat tax/sales tax? Is it just dependent on how hard the wealthy get slammed?

[PPHSfan]

Who said anything about a flat tax? Unless you mean a flat rate for the income tax.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by DDBooger
thats also an anecdotal stigma! there are far more crappy cars parked IN the yard in front of 25k homes. I don't think ALL those on Wall Street are Madoffs, or Ken Lays

saw it over and over when I worked out in the field in Houston. Also saw it in every other major metropolitan ghetto I visited. Cable and big TV's were universal. - Now the nice cars - not as much but I saw it frequently.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Who said anything about a flat tax? Unless you mean a flat rate for the income tax.

flat in terms of everyone pays the same rate based on consumption.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SWMustang
saw it over and over when I worked out in the field in Houston. Also saw it in every other major metropolitan ghetto I visited. Cable and big TV's were universal. - Now the nice cars - not as much but I saw it frequently. many of them are used and actually sold for no credit check, weekly inflated payments. ITS actually a huge profit for the used car salesman, they repo a lot of them, but they have some real nice cars for something like 150 to 200 a week, no credit check, which is what gets them drawn in. My buddy ran one of these things.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by DDBooger
many of them are used and actually sold for no credit check, weekly inflated payments. ITS actually a huge profit for the used car salesman, they repo a lot of them, but they have some real nice cars for something like 150 to 200 a week, no credit check, which is what gets them drawn in. My buddy ran one of these things.

same thing with a lot of the TV's - they came from Rent a Center or some other rent to own highway robbery type place.

[PPHSfan]

yall are getting off the topic.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SWMustang
same thing with a lot of the TV's - they came from Rent a Center or some other rent to own highway robbery type place. yup! the paycheck advances places, wow

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
yall are getting off the topic. but not political, which is awesome! haha ;)

[big daddy russ]

On the surface, I like the idea. I bought and read Mike Huckabee's book "Do the Right Thing," which goes into detail about the idea of a Fair Tax and talks some of the benefits, but I honestly don't know enough to make an informed decision on the matter. I've heard a bunch of great arguments for it, but I've never heard anything against it from anyone with half a brain. I'd be interested to see how it does in a down economy vs. a flat tax along with some other situations.

I do think the system right now needs to be revamped, whether we choose a flat tax, a fair tax, or a stupid tax.

[PPHSfan]

I saw a commercial on television the other day that had this guy sitting in a diner telling the waitress "Man I need one of those big tax refunds like the rich guys get".

Now that's some funny stuff right there.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by SWMustang
same thing with a lot of the TV's - they came from Rent a Center or some other rent to own highway robbery type place. Im talking about Buying an Item.. Not finance charges..

[Phantom Stang]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Do you honestly think people will stop buying things because of a tax? Folks are not going to pay MORE tax, they are just going to pay it in a fairer and more efficient manner. Well they would if this plan actually got put into law.
I was responding to Black Magic when he said "another idea would to be to Tax some Higher income items. Planes, cars over a certain amount, all RVs of all kinds, Pickups over a certain amount, all electonics, Houses in some areas that fall over a certain amount over the average of what a house costs in the area that a family is using for home residence, those used for rental property could be taxed.. doubling a tax for junk food , and Tobaco."
If high ticket items were most of anything that was taxed, then I would think that the rate would have to be extremely high. therefore putting the cost of these products out of the reach of many of the folks who currently purchase them.

I understood your idea as placing a moderate tax on ALL goods, which I think is worth considering.
Was I wrong about that?

[PPHSfan]

No. You are not wrong. I never mentioned different levels of tax. I mentioned either tax or no tax.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Im talking about Buying an Item.. Not finance charges..

Careful - I think you're on the verge of creating the first loop hole in our new Tax plan:) Those Fat Cats will surely exploit this.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by SWMustang
Careful - I think you're on the verge of creating the first loop hole in our new Tax plan:) Those Fat Cats will surely exploit this.

Nah, we will just tax rents as well.

[Farmersfan]

A federal sales tax makes perfect sense. It would also serve to reward people for saving their money which would help with the credit condition in America. The biggest reason the POOR can't get ahead is because they aren't smart enough to understand that compounding interest should be working FOR you and not AGAINST you. If you can only afford the minimum payment on a credit card then you can't afford the credit card.............It took me 45 years to realize it...

[PPHSfan]

The only way to get ahead in life is to act your wage.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
The only way to get ahead in life is to act your wage.

thank you Mr. Ramsey

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by SWMustang
thank you Mr. Ramsey

You think he's the first one to have ever said that?:D

[PPHSfan]

Has anyone ever sat down and thought about what you could do if you just put 30 bucks a week into a simple savings account from age 15 to 55?

Because that's about how much the average cigarette smoker burns up in a lifetime.

[mustang68]

There has been the idea kicked around for some time to have an across the board 1% sales tax everytime money changes hands in the market; retail, wholesale, no exemptions.
Proponents claim it could replace all taxes mainly because the corporations would then actually pay.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by mustang68
There has been the idea kicked around for some time to have an across the board 1% sales tax everytime money changes hands in the market; retail, wholesale, no exemptions.
Proponents claim it could replace all taxes mainly because the corporations would then actually pay.

Who cares if corporations pay taxes. They provide jobs for taxpayers. All the way up to the CEO who pays, trust me on this, boo-coos of taxes.

[mustang68]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Who cares if corporations pay taxes. They provide jobs for taxpayers. All the way up to the CEO who pays, trust me on this, boo-coos of taxes.

You're kidding right?

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by mustang68
You're kidding right?

Not really. A corporation is nothing more than a group of taxpayers. Why should they pay twice?

[mustang68]

No offence intended, have you had any economics past ECO 101?

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by mustang68
No offence intended, have you had any economics past ECO 101?

No, but I know how to spell offense, And I paid almost a hundred grand in taxes last year.

[mustang68]

I'm so glad for u. I waz tring to b nice but since u so politly pointed out my typo I'll say what I really feel which is you are not only totally ignorant about how the economy works, you probably look great in your ignorance because you are such a great tax paying Americanand can afford it. Congrats on your $$$$ and your boorishness.

No Mas Amigo

[PPHSfan]

It amazing how someone can run a company that employed 225 tax paying Americans last year can manage to do so with such little knowledge of the economy isn't it?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
It amazing how someone can run a company that employed 225 tax paying Americans last year can manage to do so with such little knowledge of the economy isn't it?


The thing I find funny is how so many people target big business and corporations to vent their anger on about not only the bailout but on tax issues like this one. In one conversation you can hear some mention that big business should pay more taxes and then bitch about them taking their production out of country. It makes no practical sense to think we could increase the operating expenses to businesses and expect them to NOT pass that expense down to the consumer or move elsewhere. But a lot of things we read on this forum don't seem to make much sense.

[jockcity33]

Originally posted by mustang68
I'm so glad for u. I waz tring to b nice but since u so politly pointed out my typo I'll say what I really feel which is you are not only totally ignorant about how the economy works, you probably look great in your ignorance because you are such a great tax paying Americanand can afford it. Congrats on your $$$$ and your boorishness.

No Mas Amigo

So tell us cretans why this won't work!!!

[PPHSfan]

A lot of folks have been led to believe that the average "schmuck" making 75 grand a year pays more in taxes than the CEO of a small company that makes say 750 grand. I just don't understand that at all. And I use the term Schmuck as term of endearment.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
It amazing how someone can run a company that employed 225 tax paying Americans last year can manage to do so with such little knowledge of the economy isn't it?

No need to be boorish!!:kiss:

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
No need to be boorish!!:kiss:

I can't help myself. I replace my ignorance with boorishness.

[STANG RED]

Corporations may not pay taxes directley, but they generate millions indirectly. All their emplyees pay taxes, and stock holders pay taxes on capitol gains.

[PPHSfan]

I wish Gary would jump in here and give us his thoughts.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Corporations may not pay taxes directley, but they generate millions indirectly. All their emplyees pay taxes, and stock holders pay taxes on capitol gains.

See you made sense, so I won't even point out your typos.:D

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
See you made sense, so I won't even point out your typos.:D

Please dont. I know their too numerous to mention anyway, and I certainly know how bad my spelling is.

[DDBooger]

you know what is troublesome is in recent economic recoveries from minor recessions or slow downs, Recovery has occured without job creation. This is generally done because jobs are taken overseas or production has been increased w/o the need for more people (technology).
http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/current_issues/ci9-8/ci9-8.html

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
A lot of folks have been led to believe that the average "schmuck" making 75 grand a year pays more in taxes than the CEO of a small company that makes say 750 grand. I just don't understand that at all. And I use the term Schmuck as term of endearment.


Based on the statement just made by Mustang68 it seems to me that many, many people feel that it's not so much a matter of the amount of taxes a person has to pay that matters but how much of a burden that tax is to that person. A wealthy person will pay much, much more taxes than a poor person but even that doesn't burden the wealthy person as much as the poor person. So, PPHSfan, It would save time and effort if you just sent my share of your money straight to my house..... OK???

[Electus Unus]

free market capitalism has ruined this country especially with all the tax cuts they have received from the Bush administration.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Electus Unus
free market capitalism has ruined this country no it hasn't, exploiters of it have, the same who tell us it will save us! Like communism, free market capitalism is a economic theory tied into social science. what neither control for is POWER, those who have it, those who manipulate it, and those who benefit from it.

[icu812]

I'm self employed and it is not only the $ I owe the IRS at the end of the year that kills me it is the burden of having to keep up with all the accounting. Not having to invest so much time would make the average business owner so much more productive. The Fair Tax (sales tax) would be a huge weight lifted off our backs. It just makes me sick it'll never happen :( Think of all people that make money from illegal means (drug dealers, non reported earnings, illegal workers, etc..) with the Fair Tax even these folks contribute to paying taxes. Everybody should pay the same rate on spending and therefore there is no reason to report income to anybody.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by icu812
I'm self employed and it is not only the $ I owe the IRS at the end of the year that kills me it is the burden of having to keep up with all the accounting. Not having to invest so much time would make the average business owner so much more productive. The Fair Tax (sales tax) would be a huge weight lifted off our backs. It just makes me sick it'll never happen :( Think of all people that make money from illegal means (drug dealers, non reported earnings, illegal workers, etc..) with the Fair Tax even these folks contribute to paying taxes. Everybody should pay the same rate on spending and therefore there is no reason to report income to anybody. I guess the businesses that hire the illegals are non-complicit? maybe you included them in ETC? ;)

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by icu812
I'm self employed and it is not only the $ I owe the IRS at the end of the year that kills me it is the burden of having to keep up with all the accounting. Not having to invest so much time would make the average business owner so much more productive. The Fair Tax (sales tax) would be a huge weight lifted off our backs. It just makes me sick it'll never happen :( Think of all people that make money from illegal means (drug dealers, non reported earnings, illegal workers, etc..) with the Fair Tax even these folks contribute to paying taxes. Everybody should pay the same rate on spending and therefore there is no reason to report income to anybody.

I hear you brother. That is why I shut the doors on my elect. contractin business back in 97. All the paperwork and BS to satisfy all the government entities was taking up all my time, when I really needed to be out working or rounding up work.
Sadly it is probably only going to get worse for you now, once all the new socialists regs are put into place. I feel for you man.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Isocialists regs are put into place. I feel for you man. not bad, went quite a few pages w/o going political, thanks stang red

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by DDBooger
not bad, went quite a few pages w/o going political, thanks stang red

Just calling a spade a spade. Your welcome Booger.

[SWMustang]

say - did you guys hear about that kid from Waco La Vega?

[PPHSfan]

I almost went political but I erased it and changed my mind.:D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Just calling a spade a spade. Your welcome Booger. cool, and just pointing you to the title of the thread that everyone had respected ;)

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by DDBooger
cool, and just pointing you to the title of the thread that everyone had respected ;)

My deepest apologies. Sometime I guess I just let my frustrations get the better of me. Perhaps I should avoid all TV and radio from now on.:(

[Ranger Mom]

get back on track boys!

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
get back on track boys!

whip 'em back into shape RM. :D Now you boys get back to playing nice.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by STANG RED
My deepest apologies. Sometime I guess I just let my frustrations get the better of me. Perhaps I should avoid all TV and radio from now on.:( or just follow the forum rules! :)

;) cheer up, you're alive, healthy? have a family? and you live in Texas :)

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by SWMustang
whip 'em back into shape RM. :D Now you boys get back to playing nice.

If I want any crap out of you, I'll come down to Houston and squeeze your pointy little head.:taunt: :wave:

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by STANG RED
If I want any crap out of you, I'll come down to Houston and squeeze your pointy little head.:taunt: :wave:

If there's beer involved.... :D

[icu812]

Originally posted by STANG RED
I hear you brother. That is why I shut the doors on my elect. contractin business back in 97. All the paperwork and BS to satisfy all the government entities was taking up all my time, when I really needed to be out working or rounding up work.
Sadly it is probably only going to get worse for you now, once all the new socialists regs are put into place. I feel for you man.

Geez, I feel better now :mad: Thanks for cheering me up RED :D

Seriously, I employed people in my business until recently. I'm a one man show now and better off for it.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
The thing I find funny is how so many people target big business and corporations to vent their anger on about not only the bailout but on tax issues like this one. In one conversation you can hear some mention that big business should pay more taxes and then bitch about them taking their production out of country. It makes no practical sense to think we could increase the operating expenses to businesses and expect them to NOT pass that expense down to the consumer or move elsewhere. But a lot of things we read on this forum don't seem to make much sense. Well I dont know aobut the rest of you but I calim it to be BS that 13 members of one of the big business corporations you guys seem to want to defend got paid $10 Million dollars each in bonuses right after geting over $25 BILLION from US ( taxpayers ) in order to keep from going under.... Defend big business like banks and the Exxons of the world but in My oppinion they have earned the RATH of the American Gorvernment and the tax payer...:mad:

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Well I dont know aobut the rest of you but I calim it to be BS that 13 members of one of the big business corporations you guys seem to want to defend got paid $10 Million dollars each in bonuses right after geting over $25 BILLION from US ( taxpayers ) in order to keep from going under.... Defend big business like banks and the Exxons of the world but in My oppinion they have earned the RATH of the American Gorvernment and the tax payer...:mad:

I agree Blackie - throw those people under the bus. You seem to want to lump everyone who's doing well for themselves in with those guys.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Just want some non biased bi-partisan discussion.

What would be your thoughts on abolishing the IRS and the Income Tax and replacing it with a Federal Sales Tax.

Here are a couple of my thoughts.

The State Comptrollers are already in place, so collection would be a simple transition.

With a Federal Sales Tax. EVERYONE would be a taxpayer, including Illegal Immigrant Workers, Drug Dealers, and a bunch of Construction Workers. ( this is not meant to single out or call anyone names, just a few examples)

The wealthiest people would pay the most taxes, while the less fortunate would not have as large a burden.

I would propose things like groceries, medicine, health care, school supplies, etc. be tax free. Folks who don't want to pay any taxes can stay home, cook their own meals, and watch free television, as I would tax dining out and cable.

I could go on and on, but would like to hear your thoughts.

Before you start throwing number at me however, I don't know how much the tax rate would have to be, but I know personally that I would gladly pay 25 percent if I didn't have to report my income.

Plus, think about this. Nobody would ever have to know how much money you make, and nobody would be forced to "HIDE" any assests.

If people did not have to hide any assets then that would facilitate greater ease of bankrolling illegal activities. Also, where would the states get the revenue that is lost from sales tax? The taxes somewhere else would have go up in order to subsidize the loss.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by SWMustang
I agree Blackie - throw those people under the bus. You seem to want to lump everyone who's doing well for themselves in with those guys. Throw the executive under the bus who takes a $10 million bonus when the tax payers bailed his company out!! you bet!! Id say just one of those is worse than 300,000 unworthy wellfair recipiants... I say thorw them in jail. Heck you would want to throw a poor guy who is comiting food stamp fraud in jail. So why would you not get extreemly upset with the GREED of an executive who takes over $10 million in a bonus from a bailed out company?

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Well I dont know aobut the rest of you but I calim it to be BS that 13 members of one of the big business corporations you guys seem to want to defend got paid $10 Million dollars each in bonuses right after geting over $25 BILLION from US ( taxpayers ) in order to keep from going under.... Defend big business like banks and the Exxons of the world but in My oppinion they have earned the RATH of the American Gorvernment and the tax payer...:mad:
.
Who here has defended THOSE guys?(they deserve the WRATH they wrought) Many here are just defending the American way of making as much money as one can. Not making as much money as determined by those who are too lazy or ignorant to realize they have the same opportunities as those who succeed.:nerd:

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Throw the executive under the bus who takes a $10 million bonus when the tax payers bailed his company out!! you bet!! Id say just one of those is worse than 300,000 unworthy wellfair recipiants... I say thorw them in jail. Heck you would want to throw a poor guy who is comiting food stamp fraud in jail. So why would you not get extreemly upset with the GREED of an executive who takes over $10 million in a bonus from a bailed out company?

let's make sure you understand my position - I'm all for those wall street criminals getting serious jail time for their misdeeds. I just don't feel every person with a well above average income is a criminal. Most aren't.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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Who here has defended THOSE guys?(they deserve the WRATH they wrought) Many here are just defending the American way of making as much money as one can. Not making as much money as determined by those who are too lazy or ignorant to realize they have the same opportunities as those who succeed.:nerd:

Not everybody has the same opportunities as those who succeed. That is one of the biggest fallacies that is promoted. If that were true, why aren't you a millionaire?

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Throw the executive under the bus who takes a $10 million bonus when the tax payers bailed his company out!! you bet!! Id say just one of those is worse than 300,000 unworthy wellfair recipiants... I say thorw them in jail. Heck you would want to throw a poor guy who is comiting food stamp fraud in jail. So why would you not get extreemly upset with the GREED of an executive who takes over $10 million in a bonus from a bailed out company?
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Were you in the mind of those who took the 10 million dollar bonuses(please list a story reporting those bonuses)? If you were not in their mind, then how can you classify it as greed? I am constantly amazed how good folks repeat this whole "greed mantra" over and over again without ever showing facts to back up their argument. It's as if throwing out the "greed" word can settle an argument before it has ever began.
BM, I am not backing those guys up but I would like a clarification of your statement.
I do think 300,000 well fair recipients on the tax rolls is MUCH worse in terms of economics than one guy taking a 10 million dollar payment he/she may or may not have deserved.:eek:

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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Were you in the mind of those who took the 10 million dollar bonuses(please list a story reporting those bonuses)? If you were not in their mind, then how can you classify it as greed? I am constantly amazed how good folks repeat this whole "greed mantra" over and over again without ever showing facts to back up their argument. It's as if throwing out the "greed" word can settle an argument before it has ever began.
BM, I am not backing those guys up but I would like a clarification of your statement.
I do think 300,000 well fair recipients on the tax rolls is MUCH worse in terms of economics than one guy taking a 10 million dollar payment he/she may or may not have deserved.:eek: So one can't pass judgment on greed w/o proof, but you can pass judgment on laziness and ignorance? w/o proof:thinking: much less generalizing 300,000 people, when describing greed normally deals with 4 or 5 individuals who cooked books. Yeah, quantitatively that makes sense.
and statistically far few get far more in regards to govt subsidy "wealthfare"(as it's termed when it's for the rich) than welfare (as it's termed for the poor)

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Not everybody has the same opportunities as those who succeed. That is one of the biggest fallacies that is promoted. If that were true, why aren't you a millionaire?
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First let me acknowledge we have again fallen off the subject...:D
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Fallacy... lol
Everyone has the same opportunities but not everyone has the same capabilities or drive. That is what separates the "haves" from the "have-nots". Creating a system to equalize those who won't or don't know how to achieve doesn't justify said system. In fact, those systems always penalize those who achieve and, in fact, is more unfair in my opinion because it takes from those who have found a way to get ahead in life. Why is the term or name millionaire important? Who says I'm not on my way?:D
I myself have found that money is NOT a source of happiness. Only those who value possessions(or their neighbors possessions) tend to think that way. I myself find happiness in other ways... namely through spirituality and family.

[SWMustang]

No doubt corporate greed should be punished. Here's an article detailing Merril Lynch's activities:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123440423533275611.html


Merrill Lynch & Co. "secretly" moved up the date it awarded bonuses for 2008 and richly rewarded its executives despite billions of dollars in losses, giving bonuses of $1 million or more apiece to nearly 700 employees, New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo said.


Andrew Cuomo
In a letter to House Financial Service Committee Chairman Barney Frank, (D., Mass.), Mr. Cuomo said the Wall Street firm awarded $3.6 billion in bonuses to more than 39,000 employees before its Jan. 1 purchase by Bank of America Corp., including more than $121 million to four top executives.

Mr. Cuomo, who is probing compensation practices at financial firms, said he was told by Merrill's board in November that any bonuses to be paid would be "based upon a combination of performance and retention needs."

"Rather, in a surprising fit of corporate irresponsibility, it appears that, instead of disclosing their bonus plans in a transparent way as requested by my office, Merrill Lynch secretly moved up the planned date to allocate bonuses and then richly rewarded their failed executives," Mr. Cuomo wrote in his letter.

The move to "secretly and prematurely award" the bonuses and "Bank of America's apparent complicity ... raise serious and disturbing questions," Mr. Cuomo added.

Scott Silvestri, a Bank of America spokesman, said Merrill's management proposed the bonuses, which were approved by the compensation committee of Merrill's board.

"Bank of America did urge the bonuses be reduced, including those at the high end," Mr. Silvestri said. "Although we had a right of consultation, it was their ultimate decision to make. In addition, a substantial amount of the Merrill bonuses were contractually guaranteed."

A spokesman for John Thain, the former Merrill chief executive who was pushed out of the combined company last month, declined to comment.

Mr. Thain has previously said that the size of the bonus pool, its mix of cash and stock, and the timing of bonus payments "were all determined together with Bank of America" and approved by Merrill's compensation committee and board.

The merger agreement also specified that Merrill pay regular bonuses. Since the company was going to cease to exist at the end of 2008, that meant, by definition, that the bonuses had to be paid before year's end. Details about the discretionary bonus pool were included in a nonpublic schedule as part of the publicly filed merger agreement between Bank of America and Merrill.

The private bonus agreement showed the companies agreed that the bonus pool exceed $5.8 billion and that 60% of it should be awarded in cash and 40% should be awarded in equity or long-term cash.

In his review of the bonus payments, Mr. Cuomo said he found that 696 individuals at Merrill received more than $1 million in bonuses, with 14 individuals receiving a combined $249 million.

Write to Chad Bray at chad.bray@dowjones.com

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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First let me acknowledge we have again fallen off the subject...:D
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Fallacy... lol
Everyone has the same opportunities but not everyone has the same capabilities or drive. That is what separates the "haves" from the "have-nots". Creating a system to equalize those who won't or don't know how to achieve doesn't justify said system. In fact, those systems always penalize those who achieve and, in fact, is more unfair in my opinion because it takes from those who have found a way to get ahead in life. Why is the term or name millionaire important? Who says I'm not on my way?:D My parents make
I myself have found that money is NOT a source of happiness. Only those who value possessions(or their neighbors possessions) tend to think that way. I myself find happiness in other ways... namely through spirituality and family.
lmao, everyone has the same opportunity, haha must be nice from the Ivory tower! perhaps if it is articulated differently, perhaps everyone does have the opportunity, but not everyone has the same ladder to climb! haha and you called Black Magic ignorant! geez:rolleyes: My parents make around 200k a year, both were immigrants, grew up in the 50s and 60s and if you are gonna compare their life experience to someone raised on the east coast or south, white, middle class, yeah, perhaps you need to learn some more on life course and contextual life experiences. It's why some black people have a totally different view of America's past than White. Poverty is generational, it is further maintained that way when jobs available or low paying, dead end. The days of blue collar jobs in abundance are over, no amount of tax break will bring back the jobs that are left. Until the developing nations stand up to the IMF and the World Bank, haji's working for a dollar a day will always create more profit. I don't blame the companies, it is their job to make a profit. But they shouldn't expect breaks from this country, nor call themselves an American corporation.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by DDBooger
lmao, everyone has the same opportunity, haha must be nice from the Ivory tower! perhaps if it is articulated differently, perhaps everyone does have the opportunity, but not everyone has the same ladder to climb! haha and you called Black Magic ignorant! geez:rolleyes: My parents make around 200k a year, both were immigrants, grew up in the 50s and 60s and if you are gonna compare their life experience to someone raised on the east coast or south, white, middle class, yeah, perhaps you need to learn some more on life course and contextual life experiences. It's why some black people have a totally different view of America's past than White.

I think you're proving his point by stating the financial success your parents achieved.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SWMustang
I think you're proving his point by stating the financial success your parents achieved. quite conversely, I'm showing that their experience required far more than someone born into a ascribed status.

[DDBooger]

my parents worked, but their ladder to success was much tougher than those born into the middle class that they have attained. To say everyone had the SAME opportunity is false, it misconstrues the fact that the road to that opportunity is rockier from the bottom! And that transcends race, it is more a class issue.

by the way sintonfan, you're not ignorant, I think you truly believe what you say, so be it, but don't let my dad hear you say it! lol ;) yall have a good one, BOOG OUT! have some boozing to do! Thankfully, that is still something ALL of us can do together without division :)

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
So one can't pass judgment on greed w/o proof, but you can pass judgment on laziness and ignorance? w/o proof:thinking: much less generalizing 300,000 people, when describing greed normally deals with 4 or 5 individuals who cooked books. Yeah, quantitatively that makes sense.
and statistically far few get far more in regards to govt subsidy "wealthfare"(as it's termed when it's for the rich) than welfare (as it's termed for the poor)
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DB, why is it politically incorrect to "pass judgment"(I don't need to judge but will give my opinion even if is fopah{spelling please? lol})?
Is it because every day I learn from past mistakes or keep a true open mind when it comes to me advancing in life in general? Is it because many of those who are poor are still happy anyway, but those who champion their cause do so because it is politically savvy to their ends?
When you or any of us aren't lazy, ignorant or stupid is it wrong to call those who are an orange an orange when if fact we're talking about oranges instead of apples?
There will always be a segment of the population who will limit themselves because they are what they are. There will always be folks who won't or can't live in their own home(s). I still don't see any of them starving on the street.
Don't forget, I know that BM was making his point but to generalize those who make a good living as "Greedy" was a very fool-hardy and counter-productive point.
Hows them "apples"...:p

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by DDBooger
my parents worked, but their ladder to success was much tougher than those born into the middle class that they have attained. To say everyone had the SAME opportunity is false, it misconstrues the fact that the road to that opportunity is rockier from the bottom! And that transcends race, it is more a class issue.

agreed - I think that's fair to say that some people have a better shot at success than others but I firmly believe everyone has a chance. It's always going to be that way. I don't see how you change that in a capitalistic society.


On the flip side I know some kids from High School and College that had EVERY opportunity to succeed yet they didn't.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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"Greedy" was a very fool-hardy and counter-productive point.
Hows them "apples"...:p oh I agree with all generalizations being incorrect, my godfather is, well, VERY WEALTHY CEO of a company in Houston, won't name it for posterity reasons, but he's a genuinely great man. Beautiful family and like family to us. My dad is blue collar, yet you'd never know it by their interaction and genuine care. Their wives and them have been best friends since HS. I agree with you there, I would never generalize all rich people as you shouldn't all poor! My aunt had a stroke, and is basically one nervous moment away from death. She isn't unhealthy, just genetics I imagine. She isn't lazy, but w/o my dad's help, she would not make it, and that is my mom's sister!

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SWMustang
agreed - I think that's fair to say that some people have a better shot at success than others but I firmly believe everyone has a chance. It's always going to be that way. I don't see how you change that in a capitalistic society.


On the flip side I know some kids from High School and College that had EVERY opportunity to succeed yet they didn't. unfortunately capitalism does not always equate freedom and socialism does not always equate totalitarianism. Inequality will always exist, but so will poor choices. We cannot believe that life is all individuality, unfortunately, social forces do exert their will upon us! We have to fight them back. Heck had my dad, who headed the railroad union, not fought for better healthcare, he likely would have seen his daughter die of cancer, it was pitiful, not two years after the agreement, my sister was diagnosed with leukemia, he had cancer insurance, which was some extra provision and it basically saved her life, otherwise, many of the procedures would have been considered exploratory and not covered by his HMO.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
lmao, everyone has the same opportunity, haha must be nice from the Ivory tower! perhaps if it is articulated differently, perhaps everyone does have the opportunity, but not everyone has the same ladder to climb! haha and you called Black Magic ignorant! geez:rolleyes: My parents make around 200k a year, both were immigrants, grew up in the 50s and 60s and if you are gonna compare their life experience to someone raised on the east coast or south, white, middle class, yeah, perhaps you need to learn some more on life course and contextual life experiences. It's why some black people have a totally different view of America's past than White. Poverty is generational, it is further maintained that way when jobs available or low paying, dead end. The days of blue collar jobs in abundance are over, no amount of tax break will bring back the jobs that are left. Until the developing nations stand up to the IMF and the World Bank, haji's working for a dollar a day will always create more profit. I don't blame the companies, it is their job to make a profit. But they shouldn't expect breaks from this country, nor call themselves an American corporation.
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I guess I hit a wrong cord with you when I brought up my spirituality. lol
You seem to pass judgment quite a bit by dictating what I should or need to do just to agree with you and stating those aren't "American corporations". Booger, the poverty is only generational because the "safety net" became a "hammock". When you remove the need to provide basic needs like food and housing you tend to create those who become dependent on the programs this was intended to initially help out. That is where generational poverty lies. Too many folks have used hard work and education to become something their parent's weren't, but is that a good thing today? I think the spiritual disconnect today has lead to more folks unhappy vs. those who are impoverished. Too many folks worship possessions or a politically correct cause imho...
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Please correct your misquote of me.:)
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And your thoughts on the national sales tax? We need to get back on topic.:p

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
my parents worked, but their ladder to success was much tougher than those born into the middle class that they have attained. To say everyone had the SAME opportunity is false, it misconstrues the fact that the road to that opportunity is rockier from the bottom! And that transcends race, it is more a class issue.

by the way sintonfan, you're not ignorant, I think you truly believe what you say, so be it, but don't let my dad hear you say it! lol ;) yall have a good one, BOOG OUT! have some boozing to do! Thankfully, that is still something ALL of us can do together without division :)
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Hopefully we'll have that great opportunity to share a cold one. But you buy first...
then I buy the second and so on...
that is micro-economics and fair-minded talk.:p :D

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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I guess I hit a wrong cord with you when I brought up my spirituality. lol
You seem to pass judgment quite a bit by dictating what I should or need to do just to agree with you and stating those aren't "American corporations". Booger, the poverty is only generational because the "safety net" became a "hammock". When you remove the need to provide basic needs like food and housing you tend to create those who become dependent on the programs this was intended to initially help out. That is where generational poverty lies. Too many folks have used hard work and education to become something their parent's weren't, but is that a good thing today? I think the spiritual disconnect today has lead to more folks unhappy vs. those who are impoverished. Too many folks worship possessions or a politically correct cause imho...
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Please correct your misquote of me.:)
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And your thoughts on the national sales tax? We need to get back on topic.:p sorry SF, I could care less, nor is it my intent to have ANYONE agree with me! spiritual disconnect? haha sorry man, poor people love them some GOD!!! and you say it's the welfare, I say it's the low wages and lack of REAL jobs, the kind your parents and my parents had access to, but are no longer here. If you think I was passing judgment on you, like you corrected BM for his overgeneralization, I believe I was doing the same to you! if you call that passing judgment, well, so be it, but not my intent.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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Hopefully we'll have that great opportunity to share a cold one. But you buy first...
then I buy the second and so on...
that is micro-economics and fair-minded talk.:p :D lmao deal

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
unfortunately capitalism does not always equate freedom and socialism does not always equate totalitarianism. Inequality will always exist, but so will poor choices. We cannot believe that life is all individuality, unfortunately, social forces do exert their will upon us! We have to fight them back. Heck had my dad, who headed the railroad union, not fought for better healthcare, he likely would have seen his daughter die of cancer, it was pitiful, not two years after the agreement, my sister was diagnosed with leukemia, he had cancer insurance, which was some extra provision and it basically saved her life, otherwise, many of the procedures would have been considered exploratory and not covered by his HMO.
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I am so sorry about your sister. I hope she has a long and wonderful life ahead of her.:)

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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I am so sorry about your sister. I hope she has a long and wonderful life ahead of her.:) thanks man! She's a beautiful 24 year old now, teaching students in Ft Bend Dulles. this is her second year teaching.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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First let me acknowledge we have again fallen off the subject...:D
.
Fallacy... lol
Everyone has the same opportunities but not everyone has the same capabilities or drive. That is what separates the "haves" from the "have-nots". Creating a system to equalize those who won't or don't know how to achieve doesn't justify said system. In fact, those systems always penalize those who achieve and, in fact, is more unfair in my opinion because it takes from those who have found a way to get ahead in life. Why is the term or name millionaire important? Who says I'm not on my way?:D
I myself have found that money is NOT a source of happiness. Only those who value possessions(or their neighbors possessions) tend to think that way. I myself find happiness in other ways... namely through spirituality and family.

If money isn't the source of happiness then what is the big deal? And if you're so opposed to a system to equalize things then why do you support publicly funded school systems? The have-nots can go and pay less than others. That's a travesty!

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
If money isn't the source of happiness then what is the big deal? And if you're so opposed to a system to equalize things then why do you support publicly funded school systems? The have-nots can go and pay less than others. That's a travesty!
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You answered your own question when it came to money and it being a big deal. Why take money from those who succeed and it give it to those who don't... seems obvious enough if it's a big deal.
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Where have I ever even talked about supporting publicly funded scruels? I support scruel vouchers.:p And yes that means that "have-nots" can level the playing field when it comes to rich fat cats putting their own kids in private school so they can get a high quality education just for their rich fat cat kids. Unless you want to keep the "have-nots" away from a much better education.
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Happiness is just that. You don't need the goverment or other well-minded people saying that you have to make a million just to be happy. That there talk sounds like it came from Californeeay or something.:p
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To stay on topic...
what are your thoughts on the sales tax for ALL?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Throw the executive under the bus who takes a $10 million bonus when the tax payers bailed his company out!! you bet!! Id say just one of those is worse than 300,000 unworthy wellfair recipiants... I say thorw them in jail. Heck you would want to throw a poor guy who is comiting food stamp fraud in jail. So why would you not get extreemly upset with the GREED of an executive who takes over $10 million in a bonus from a bailed out company?


So I guess what you are saying it that it is better to get paid for doing nothing than it is to be overpaid for doing a job?
First thing that you need to be aware of is the fact that most of these executives didn't grant themselves the bonuses. They were voted on and appoved by a Board of Directors. You can't blame the exec for taking the money anymore than you can blame Lebron James for taking his contract. You have to blame the system that allowed it to happen. And again I go back to the welfare question: In a system that allows people to get paid public money for doing absolutly nothing is it feasible to assume we can control the size of the bonus paid with private money.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
my parents worked, but their ladder to success was much tougher than those born into the middle class that they have attained. To say everyone had the SAME opportunity is false, it misconstrues the fact that the road to that opportunity is rockier from the bottom! And that transcends race, it is more a class issue.

by the way sintonfan, you're not ignorant, I think you truly believe what you say, so be it, but don't let my dad hear you say it! lol ;) yall have a good one, BOOG OUT! have some boozing to do! Thankfully, that is still something ALL of us can do together without division :)


At what point was it ever mentioned that everyone had the same "path" to the opportunities. That's a ridiculous thought. The constitution promises the pursuit of happiness but using your logic I should sue the government because my "PURSUIT" is different than yours.
Anyone in America can educate themselves and work their tails off and get to a position of authority with a company like Merril and then vote themselves a huge bonus. Sure it will be harder for some than others but it was never promised to be as easy.....

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by DDBooger
unfortunately capitalism does not always equate freedom and socialism does not always equate totalitarianism. VERY VERY TRUE!! There must be a balance of the two because right now both have some good and bad things about both. The Reason I feel so strongly is because of the children. The children are the real victims of the problems of our society and the way things are done. IF we error it must be on the side of the poor. They are the ones who really are hurting escpecialy in times like these. You may feel mad at some person who is lazy and I feel the same way for those folks. BUT the Kids dont have any choice. They are the ones who really suffer in the long run. I will find the story of the Bank Executives who took in excess if $10 Million dollars each.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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Were you in the mind of those who took the 10 million dollar bonuses(please list a story reporting those bonuses)? I do think 300,000 well fair recipients on the tax rolls is MUCH worse in terms of economics than one guy taking a 10 million dollar payment he/she may or may not have deserved.:eek: WOW!! you Really think 1 guy getting $10 Million dollars of Taxpayer dollars is worse than 300,000 Fraudulent recipients of Welfaire??? WOW!!!
Here is the Story link you were asking for in your post.
LINK (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/banking/2009-02-10-bankers-praise-bailout_N.htm)

MERRILL LYNCH BONUSES

John Thain and the other four former top Merrill Lynch execs didn't get 2008 bonuses, but Merrill gave $3.6 billion to other employees just before Bank of America bought it, with 696 getting at least $1 million each. The highest:

Recipients Combined amount

Top four $121 million

Next four $62 million

Next six $66 million

Source: Office of the New York state attorney general
Thats 14 who Got an average of about $14 million each of our taxpayer dollars... Nearly 700!!! got over a million in a bonus from a company who had to get BILLIONS of dollars from taxpayers to keep from going bankrupt!! WOW.. I say tha t blows away ANY AND ALL Wellfair fraud in this country for quite a while....




:doh:

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
VERY VERY TRUE!! There must be a balance of the two because right now both have some good and bad things about both. The Reason I feel so strongly is because of the children. The children are the real victims of the problems of our society and the way things are done. IF we error it must be on the side of the poor. They are the ones who really are hurting escpecialy in times like these. You may feel mad at some person who is lazy and I feel the same way for those folks. BUT the Kids dont have any choice. They are the ones who really suffer in the long run. I will find the story of the Bank Executives who took in excess if $10 Million dollars each.


I really disagree with the notion that any "Kids" are suffering in this country right now. Some are less fortunate than others but suffering? If any suffering is going on it would most likely be related to bad parenting than any kind of class condition in this country. And if you examine the lasting effects of childhood "Suffering" I would say that kids of wealthy people have just as much opportunity to "suffer". A lack of supervision, love and guidance can be as devastating as a lack of money. Childhood suffering in America would be more of a quality of parenting issue rather than a money or lifestyle issue.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I really disagree with the notion that any "Kids" are suffering in this country right now. Some are less fortunate than others but suffering? If any suffering is going on it would most likely be related to bad parenting than any kind of class condition in this country. And if you examine the lasting effects of childhood "Suffering" I would say that kids of wealthy people have just as much opportunity to "suffer". A lack of supervision, love and guidance can be as devastating as a lack of money. Childhood suffering in America would be more of a quality of parenting issue rather than a money or lifestyle issue. This just shows how out of touch you are with the real world when it comes to some peoples lives. There are americans who live well below the poverty level. dont get 3 or sometimes 2 meals a day and cant afford to go to the doctor. All this in the richest most prosperous country in the world. The Poverty level in the US is a family of 4 or more who live on less that $18,500 a year. Right now over 35 million of our 290 million people fall into this category..

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
First let me acknowledge we have again fallen off the subject...:D
.
Fallacy... lol
Everyone has the same opportunities but not everyone has the same capabilities or drive. That is what separates the "haves" from the "have-nots". Creating a system to equalize those who won't or don't know how to achieve doesn't justify said system. In fact, those systems always penalize those who achieve and, in fact, is more unfair in my opinion because it takes from those who have found a way to get ahead in life. Why is the term or name millionaire important? Who says I'm not on my way?:D
I myself have found that money is NOT a source of happiness. Only those who value possessions(or their neighbors possessions) tend to think that way. I myself find happiness in other ways... namely through spirituality and family.

I've never seen anybody define welfare or social programs as an attempt to equalize the level of wealth in our country. Well, I have seen some people say that, but it is utterly and completely false. If money isn't a big deal to you then why are you so passionate about giving a little to make sure a family who is struggling can put food in their children's mouths and clothes on their back and a roof over their head?

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
WOW!! you Really think 1 guy getting $10 Million dollars of Taxpayer dollars is worse than 300,000 Fraudulent recipients of Welfaire??? WOW!!!
Here is the Story link you were asking for in your post.
LINK (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/banking/2009-02-10-bankers-praise-bailout_N.htm)

MERRILL LYNCH BONUSES

John Thain and the other four former top Merrill Lynch execs didn't get 2008 bonuses, but Merrill gave $3.6 billion to other employees just before Bank of America bought it, with 696 getting at least $1 million each. The highest:

Recipients Combined amount

Top four $121 million

Next four $62 million

Next six $66 million

Source: Office of the New York state attorney general
Thats 14 who Got an average of about $14 million each of our taxpayer dollars... Nearly 700!!! got over a million in a bonus from a company who had to get BILLIONS of dollars from taxpayers to keep from going bankrupt!! WOW.. I say tha t blows away ANY AND ALL Wellfair fraud in this country for quite a while....




:doh:

Welfare fraud:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jul/01/local/me-welfare1

Welfare Fraud Costs L.A. County Millions
July 01, 2006 in print edition B-10

Welfare recipients and their friends and relatives could be defrauding taxpayers of $500 million a year through the county’s child-care programs, a grand jury report concludes.

According to the report, released Thursday, some county employees estimate that half of the $1.1 billion in funding for the CalWORKs program is lost to fraud because the Department of Public Social Services doesn’t verify that welfare-to-work recipients meet the requirements for child-care payments.

“Widespread abuse

Supervisor Mike Antonovich will introduce a motion Wednesday seeking a report on how the social services department will ensure that welfare recipients’ children are actually being cared for while the guardians are at work, said his spokesman, Tony Bell.

“This is an affront to the taxpayer,” Bell said. “It’s unconscionable and criminal.”

Phil Ansell, program and policy director at the department, said the grand jury study shouldn’t be used to draw conclusions about child-care fraud because it was not specifically a fraud study.
End story.

This is just one COUNTY, pretty good argument can be made that welfare fraud is just as costly to the taxpayers. Fraud is what it is, either on Wall Street or welfare.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
This just shows how out of touch you are with the real world when it comes to some peoples lives. There are americans who live well below the poverty level. dont get 3 or sometimes 2 meals a day and cant afford to go to the doctor. All this in the richest most prosperous country in the world. The Poverty level in the US is a family of 4 or more who live on less that $18,500 a year. Right now over 35 million of our 290 million people fall into this category..

What's your solution.....socialism/marxism? There is plenty of opportunity in this country if you are willing to seize it. Its called hard work!! The problem with continuing to force those who make the most pay an unfair portion is that they just might take their toys and go elsewhere. Please see the many corporatations that operate internationally as the corporate tax structure here is not conducive to business growth. To the extent there are those in need the private sector does a much better job of helping that the government. The problem is the government keeps the private sector hamstrung by over taxing. Let the capital stay in the private sector thus creating jobs and lowering unemployment. When individuals and businesses are doing well contributions th charity increase thus helping those remaining in povery that have yet to see the benefit of the economic prosperity. Welfare should be short term solution not a way of life.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
What's your solution.....socialism/marxism? There is plenty of opportunity in this country if you are willing to seize it. Its called hard work!! The problem with continuing to force those who make the most pay an unfair portion is that they just might take their toys and go elsewhere. Please see the many corporatations that operate internationally as the corporate tax structure here is not conducive to business growth. To the extent there are those in need the private sector does a much better job of helping that the government. The problem is the government keeps the private sector hamstrung by over taxing. Let the capital stay in the private sector thus creating jobs and lowering unemployment. When individuals and businesses are doing well contributions th charity increase thus helping those remaining in povery that have yet to see the benefit of the economic prosperity. Welfare should be short term solution not a way of life.

Then how do foreign companies such as Toyota come into our country, build factories, and be successful?

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Then how do foreign companies such as Toyota come into our country, build factories, and be successful?

Its called Unions. The Unions need to understand the labor costs are killing Detroit.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Reds fan
Welfare fraud:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jul/01/local/me-welfare1

Welfare Fraud Costs L.A. County Millions
July 01, 2006 in print edition B-10

Welfare recipients and their friends and relatives could be defrauding taxpayers of $500 million a year through the county’s child-care programs, a grand jury report concludes.

According to the report, released Thursday, some county employees estimate that half of the $1.1 billion in funding for the CalWORKs program is lost to fraud because the Department of Public Social Services doesn’t verify that welfare-to-work recipients meet the requirements for child-care payments.

“Widespread abuse

Supervisor Mike Antonovich will introduce a motion Wednesday seeking a report on how the social services department will ensure that welfare recipients’ children are actually being cared for while the guardians are at work, said his spokesman, Tony Bell.

“This is an affront to the taxpayer,” Bell said. “It’s unconscionable and criminal.”

Phil Ansell, program and policy director at the department, said the grand jury study shouldn’t be used to draw conclusions about child-care fraud because it was not specifically a fraud study.
End story.

This is just one COUNTY, pretty good argument can be made that welfare fraud is just as costly to the taxpayers. Fraud is what it is, either on Wall Street or welfare. Like I said before.. Its WAY WAY worse for a few 700 or so people to get anywhere from $ 1 million to $20 million EACH than it is for the hundreds of thousands of folks you refer to in your article.. It states the state of California has maybe $500 million in fraud.... Out of hundreds of thousands or most likely over 1 MILLION reciptiants.... Compare the $500 million to the over $3.3 BILLION .. BILLION for The ONE BANKING FIRM ALONE.... Like I said. The Corporate wellfair Is WAY WAY worse and on top of that those folks are already rich.. the folks you mentioned are poor even after a little cheating....

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
Its called Unions. The Unions need to understand the labor costs are killing Detroit.

Detroit was the people who set the wages and benefits and want to roll them back to increase their profits. They didn't plan for the harder times and the changing market trends and now since they're suffering they're trying to make retirees and employees suffer who have committed their lives to working to that company. A Union's job is to prevent that very thing from happening. Those who were running the company didn't look at the big picture and looked for ways to put those big bucks into their pockets instead of saving and planning for a rainy day like most responsible Americans have to do.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Detroit was the people who set the wages and benefits and want to roll them back to increase their profits. They didn't plan for the harder times and the changing market trends and now since they're suffering they're trying to make retirees and employees suffer who have committed their lives to working to that company. A Union's job is to prevent that very thing from happening. Those who were running the company didn't look at the big picture and looked for ways to put those big bucks into their pockets instead of saving and planning for a rainy day like most responsible Americans have to do.

That is pure nonsense. The cost of labor is killing them. The Unions have done nothing for many years to help the current competitive environment in the automobile industry. When Toyota builds cars at over $20/hour cheaper there is a problem. It called excessive costs associated with the Union contracts. The UAW needs to understand they are putting themselves out of work. They just don't seem to get it.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Detroit was the people who set the wages and benefits and want to roll them back to increase their profits. They didn't plan for the harder times and the changing market trends and now since they're suffering they're trying to make retirees and employees suffer who have committed their lives to working to that company. A Union's job is to prevent that very thing from happening. Those who were running the company didn't look at the big picture and looked for ways to put those big bucks into their pockets instead of saving and planning for a rainy day like most responsible Americans have to do. You hit it on the head! the big wigs and folks in charge expect the workers to take the loss. NOT them. Heaven forbid the CEO, management, or Shareholders take the loss. Heck no they aint gona sell one of thier vacation homes .. Heck no they aint gona sell off the Jet or not by that Ferrari!! Lets just lay off the workers or make them take the pay cuts....

[PPHSfan]

I still want to know what BBDE thinks about the tax plan.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
You hit it on the head! the big wigs and folks in charge expect the workers to take the loss. NOT them. Heaven forbid the CEO, management, or Shareholders take the loss. Heck no they aint gona sell one of thier vacation homes .. Heck no they aint gona sell off the Jet or not by that Ferrari!! Lets just lay off the workers or make them take the pay cuts....

GM cut 10,000 salaried non union jobs. CEO's have given up their salary this year.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
That is pure nonsense. The cost of labor is killing them. The Unions have done nothing for many years to help the current competitive environment in the automobile industry. When Toyota builds cars at over $20/hour cheaper there is a problem. It called excessive costs associated with the Union contracts. The UAW needs to understand they are putting themselves out of work. They just don't seem to get it.

You just don't seem to get it. It's not about helping the industry, it's about protecting worker's and retiree's rights, benefits, and wages. It's the fault of the management of the companies themselves that are getting them beaten.

[SWMustang]

On a side note - I'm very pleased to see that we can respectfully discuss an issue that people don't agree on.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I still want to know what BBDE thinks about the tax plan.

I already posted what I thought about the tax plan. It's not feasible. Taxation in other forms will increase elsewhere, otherwise the states will lose funding completely. Where do you plan on making up for the lost revenue due to sales tax?

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
You hit it on the head! the big wigs and folks in charge expect the workers to take the loss. NOT them. Heaven forbid the CEO, management, or Shareholders take the loss. Heck no they aint gona sell one of thier vacation homes .. Heck no they aint gona sell off the Jet or not by that Ferrari!! Lets just lay off the workers or make them take the pay cuts....

Why doesn't everyone get paid the same amount Chairman Black Magic regardless of the job?? Maybe you and BBDE can start a local chapter.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I already posted what I thought about the tax plan. It's not feasible. Taxation in other forms will increase elsewhere, otherwise the states will lose funding completely. Where do you plan on making up for the lost revenue due to sales tax? Id say you would still have to keep local sales taxes . otherwise you cant do it.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I already posted what I thought about the tax plan. It's not feasible. Taxation in other forms will increase elsewhere, otherwise the states will lose funding completely. Where do you plan on making up for the lost revenue due to sales tax?

You do not elimate the state tax systems only the federal personal income tax.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
You do not elimate the state tax systems only the federal personal income tax.

Yes, and he is proposing giving that to the federal government, or at least that what it seemed like when I read it. I could have misinterpreted that, but either way, taxation will increase in other forms. When we went through the Bush tax cuts the same things happened. Taxation and state fees increased to make up for the gap. Looks good on paper, but in reality, nothing changed, it just made it easier on larger corporations.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
You just don't seem to get it. It's not about helping the industry, it's about protecting worker's and retiree's rights, benefits, and wages. It's the fault of the management of the companies themselves that are getting them beaten.

I believe the unrealistic union demands of the past are coming to the forefront. Trust me I get. You are the one that does not seem to get. The union leaders dictated these wages or else they woud strike. Worker's rights?? They should feel lucky they still have a job. Its called getting with the times and being competitive.

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I already posted what I thought about the tax plan. It's not feasible. Taxation in other forms will increase elsewhere, otherwise the states will lose funding completely. Where do you plan on making up for the lost revenue due to sales tax?

I don't remember saying anything about Replacing the state sales tax. I just said the comptrollers could collect the Federal Tax.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by BleedOrange
Worker's rights?? They should feel lucky they still have a job. Uhhhh.. Gota have people to build them.. No matter what. You act like they have jobs because the folks who own the plants give them jobs out of the kindness of thier hearts..:eek:

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Uhhhh.. Gota have people to build them.. No matter what. You act like they have jobs because the folks who own the plants give them jobs out of the kindness of thier hearts..:eek:

Uhhh it called the free market. If you cannot compete because your labor rates are excessive you either adjust or go bye bye. It called not seeing the forest through the trees or in this case get the labor rates in line or the labor rate for those employees will be $0

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Detroit was the people who set the wages and benefits and want to roll them back to increase their profits. They didn't plan for the harder times and the changing market trends and now since they're suffering they're trying to make retirees and employees suffer who have committed their lives to working to that company. A Union's job is to prevent that very thing from happening. Those who were running the company didn't look at the big picture and looked for ways to put those big bucks into their pockets instead of saving and planning for a rainy day like most responsible Americans have to do.
.
G, I'm curious about the wording of your statement. If I read this correct since Detroit is suffering they're now trying to make retirees and employees suffer? Why would they want to make others suffer? Wouldn't that imply that these big wigs are evil? Is the assumption that those in charge are evil because they are trying to survive in today's ultra-competitive market or is it inherent?

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
I don't remember saying anything about Replacing the state sales tax. I just said the comptrollers could collect the Federal Tax.

So you're saying a higher sales tax? On what goods/services?

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
G, I'm curious about the wording of your statement. If I read this correct since Detroit is suffering they're now trying to make retirees and employees suffer? Why would they want to make others suffer? Wouldn't that imply that these big wigs are evil? Is the assumption that those in charge are evil because they are trying to survive in today's ultra-competitive market or is it inherent?

Taking away retiree benefits....that's suffering. Taking away wages....that's suffering. You wouldn't stay at a job where you had all of the benefits and high salary and just had it all taken away from you (most likely).

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
So you're saying a higher sales tax? On what goods/services?

The same goods and services the State taxes now. Just an increase in the amount, and an end to the income tax.

[PPHSfan]

Did you not read the first post?

[PPHSfan]

Gary,

This isn't a Right VS Left proposal. It's a Fair VS Unfair proposal which is what I heard our new VP talk about in every debate.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Did you not read the first post?

Barely, I won't lie, haha. But alas, I have had collectively about 15 hours of sleep the last three days so my comprehension skills are sub par most likely, admittedly.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Taking away retiree benefits....that's suffering. Taking away wages....that's suffering. You wouldn't stay at a job where you had all of the benefits and high salary and just had it all taken away from you (most likely).
.
But you said "trying to make" folks suffer. Wouldn't that imply a harmful intention just to make these folks suffer?
.
G, maybe you should get some sleep first.:D

[PPHSfan]

Just for BBDE.

Please just tell me what you think of the idea, and don't try and shoot it down just because you believe me to be a hard nosed conservative. I don't know where folks get that idea about me anyway. I mean, sure I'm for the death penalty and against abortion, I don't like the way the current welfare system is. I don't like calling welfare money a tax-cut whenever it is given to follks who don't pay any taxes in the first place. But I also think Pot should be legalized. I'm against same sex marriage in principle, however I don't have a problem with two men or women living together getting the same tax-incentives that two married folks would. I don't lean to either "side". I have my very own thoughts on just about every issue, and I don't follow along with a party. I like a lot of the ideas of our new administration, and I am against several as well. Does that make me a weirdo?