Bailout Solutions

[Bullaholic]

I don't know of anybody in America who is not tired of the use of bailouts by our government to attempt to jumpstart our economy at the expense of taxpayers.

Perhaps this is an overly-simplistic solution that has roots in coffeeshops throughout America, but what is wrong with taking back all of the money made by the Madoffs, and his like, that can still be found and returning it to the bilked investors? Further, why not turn back the ridiculous pre-buyout $4 Billion bonus distributions by firms like Merril-Lynch and others and return the money to the federal government to reduce the bailout tab? If the courts can reverse the actions of persons who distribute all of their remaining wealth to relatives or friends in less than 3 years prior to declaring bankruptcy, then why can't similar legislation be enacted to control the corporate runaway golden parachute bonus situation?

I do not advocate govenmental control in anything in business-- I am a strong champion of free enterprise wealth-building, but the bonus situation in corporate America and illicit hedge fund management and "Ponzi" schemes have got to brought under control somehow immediately. There is just too much room for illicit manipulation of the system to the detrement of our entire nation.

(I will make my usual appeal that political parties and politicians be left out of this disussion even though they play a huge part in the discussion of solutions of this problem.)

[GreenMonster]

Personally, I think the government would be better off keeping all of these rebate checks. How many did the Bush administration send out? Several, and none of them even slowed the process down. What our country needs is jobs. Lots of them. I'm OK with creating new government jobs if they would involve cleaning up our country, fixing our roads, building new facilities, and improving our crumbling infrastructure. Kill the welfare programs and give these people jobs. Make them earn their government money. Give them some incentive to get off the couch and go back to work. Teach them some skills that they can use to get a better job and fix their own problems.

[Bullaholic]

Perhaps a first step---I understand that President Obama is addressing the nation concerning corporate greed right now. I regret that this has become necessary.

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Perhaps a first step---I understand that President Obama is addressing the nation concerning corporate greed right now. I regret that this has become necessary.
like farmersfan astonishment at that lady, mine is the same with them, when is enough, enough?

I would likely be rommed as well if I said what I felt!

lets call it what it is, Corporate Welfare! hope to hear more disguist regarding this, it triples anything spent on the other type on a AVERAGE year.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by I_Do_Care
like farmersfan astonishment at that lady, mine is the same with them, when is enough, enough?

I would likely be rommed as well if I said what I felt!

lets call it what it is, Corporate Welfare! hope to hear more disguist regarding this, it triples anything spent on the other type on a AVERAGE year.

Well, one thing about this huge prob, IDC, we're all in the same boat together regardless of political affiliations and, I for one, hope that all of our citizens will link arms and beat these potential economically fatal problems just like we did the Japanese and Germans in WWII. We are Americans and we will find a way---together.

[Black_Magic]

What has caused all this crap is some of what caused the first depresion along with the stock market crash. Unregulated greed on wall sreeet. Goes to show you when government deregulates the markets that sombody will just take somones montey and run. By taking the money I mean they will do unsound things with other peoples money in order to make a dollar for them selves. Then when it looks like all the practices were unsound and unethical we then put regulations on the folks to stop it in the future AND Bail out the company. Bottom Line is the average american taxpayer gets the shaft and the corporate big wigs bet bonuses.. you just cant trust people to do the right thing so thats why we have laws and regulations. or at least Need regulations.

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Well, one thing about this huge prob, IDC, we're all in the same boat together regardless of political affiliations and, I for one, hope that all of our citizens will link arms and beat these potential economically fatal problems just like we did the Japanese and Germans in WWII. We are Americans and we will find a way---together. I agree, but this is a GLOBAL issue unfortunately. It's ramifications can encourage isolationism, radicalism (rise of the Nazis) and wars in response to necessity or "national interests." Recovery is a slippery slope. :(

[Bullaholic]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/04/obama.executive.pay/index.html

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
What has caused all this crap is some of what caused the first depresion along with the stock market crash. Unregulated greed on wall sreeet. Goes to show you when government deregulates the markets that sombody will just take somones montey and run. By taking the money I mean they will do unsound things with other peoples money in order to make a dollar for them selves. Then when it looks like all the practices were unsound and unethical we then put regulations on the folks to stop it in the future AND Bail out the company. Bottom Line is the average american taxpayer gets the shaft and the corporate big wigs bet bonuses.. you just cant trust people to do the right thing so thats why we have laws and regulations. or at least Need regulations. bad enough that you have agreement from both parties on limitiing pay to financiallly floated banks. AND NO MORE GOLDEN PARACHUTES!! Easy to be risky with someone else's money!

[Black_Magic]

how in the heck can a bank have to accept a bailout in order to stay in business AND THEN give CEO or a VP a BONUS?? dont you get a bonus when you do a good job? and isnt doing a good job based on if the company in profitable?? outragous.:dispntd: :dispntd: :dispntd:

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
how in the heck can a bank have to accept a bailout in order to stay in business AND THEN give CEO or a VP a BONUS?? dont you get a bonus when you do a good job? and isnt doing a good job based on if the company in profitable?? outragous.:dispntd: :dispntd: :dispntd: you just don't understand the work it takes to tank a business! :dispntd: lol :D

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
how in the heck can a bank have to accept a bailout in order to stay in business AND THEN give CEO or a VP a BONUS?? dont you get a bonus when you do a good job? and isnt doing a good job based on if the company in profitable?? outragous.:dispntd: :dispntd: :dispntd:

That is what gets me......those high rollers that think they are "entitled" somehow!!

They didn't work for that money.....we did!!!

I'll shut up now because this whole thing really pisses me off!!!:mad: :mad:

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
That is what gets me......those high rollers that think they are "entitled" somehow!!

They didn't work for that money.....we did!!!

I'll shut up now because this whole thing really pisses me off!!!:mad: :mad: Ditto RM!
inundated with Gordon Geckos! :)

[Bullaholic]

I think that we are going to have to be more tolerant of each other's views and understand our fellow citizens more than ever before. We are going to have to rely on and help one another thru this difficult time regardless of such things as our race or political affiliations---the stakes are just too big for any of us to be "selfish" with our actions right now. If my President asks me for my help for my country ---I am going to be willing to give it without reservation.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by GreenMonster
Personally, I think the government would be better off keeping all of these rebate checks. How many did the Bush administration send out? Several, and none of them even slowed the process down. What our country needs is jobs. Lots of them. I'm OK with creating new government jobs if they would involve cleaning up our country, fixing our roads, building new facilities, and improving our crumbling infrastructure. Kill the welfare programs and give these people jobs. Make them earn their government money. Give them some incentive to get off the couch and go back to work. Teach them some skills that they can use to get a better job and fix their own problems.

I agree but I dont think killing welfare is the answer. I do think welfare needs some serious reform though. Creating jobs to improve our infrastructure is a good way to stimulate our economy and lower unemployment.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by rockdale80
I agree but I dont think killing welfare is the answer. I do think welfare needs some serious reform though. Creating jobs to improve our infrastructure is a good way to stimulate our economy and lower unemployment.


It might not be this way in all areas but in Texas there is rarely a shortage of jobs. The problem is there is a shortage of GOOD jobs and Americans have become "entitled". Immigration is a huge problem in this country now but if we send illegals back home America crumbles. Very few citizens in this country are willing to do the ditch digging, dish washing, weed eating and chimney sweeping jobs that are available. I honestly think things will have to get much, much worst before Americans wake up. But until then we sit on our expensive computers in our expensive homes on our expensive DSL network and discuss it on a expensive forum like this one.......Or worst yet, at work where productivity has come to a complete standstill!!!!!!!

[IHStangFan]

yet another reason I am losing faith in our government, scared of where America is headed, and why I have little faith in humanity these days.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
It might not be this way in all areas but in Texas there is rarely a shortage of jobs. The problem is there is a shortage of GOOD jobs and Americans have become "entitled". Immigration is a huge problem in this country now but if we send illegals back home America crumbles. Very few citizens in this country are willing to do the ditch digging, dish washing, weed eating and chimney sweeping jobs that are available. I honestly think things will have to get much, much worst before Americans wake up. But until then we sit on our expensive computers in our expensive homes on our expensive DSL network and discuss it on a expensive forum like this one.......Or worst yet, at work where productivity has come to a complete standstill!!!!!!!

I share some of your sentiments, Farmer, and it brings to mind one of the stories about our last Depression that my dad told me.
In 1933 he was working on the Ford Motor Co. assembly line in Dallas and he had a couple of windows in back of him, and he said it snowed one day and he never knew it until he walked out of the plant after work. He said the foreman always barked at them---"Better get after it boys---there's somebody out there ready to take your place."

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
He said the foreman always barked at them---"Better get after it boys---there's somebody out there ready to take your place." yup for a dollar a day in a pothole of a country!

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by IHStangFan
yet another reason I am losing faith in our government, scared of where America is headed, and why I have little faith in humanity these days. in govt? or Wall Street and market manipulating jingoists who change titles of aid to the rich in order for their success to coincide with our benefit? The dialectical job exchange from fed positions to shareholder and board member of large banking firms is humorous and we do nothing about it but cry and moan. yet they dare us to stop them, we've positioned ourselves to their mercy, they have the bailout(welfare), its just a matter of wording, to think either party would be non-complicit in the position of power is funny.

[Bullaholic]

http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/04/news/pay.cap.questions.fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes

[IHStangFan]

Originally posted by I_Do_Care
in govt? or Wall Street and market manipulating jingoists who change titles of aid to the rich in order for their success to coincide with our benefit? The dialectical job exchange from fed positions to shareholder and board member of large banking firms is humorous and we do nothing about it but cry and moan. yet they dare us to stop them, we've positioned ourselves to their mercy, they have the bailout(welfare), its just a matter of wording, to think either party would be non-complicit in the position of power is funny. and you think that the government isn't involved.....or could at least step in and say "enough is enough"? Instead they almost encourage this kind of behaviour......so yeah....government.

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by IHStangFan
and you think that the government isn't involved.....or could at least step in and say "enough is enough"? Instead they almost encourage this kind of behaviour......so yeah....government. i wasn't detracting, but adding! hence the "dialectical" comment! ;) It likely sounded that way, apologies brutha Stang Fan! ;)

[I_Do_Care]

not one far left or far right, but square in the middle. It seems both parties are ingrained with the riches of public service (what an oxymoron). I know it has been discussed, but the dichotomous choices we have is hardly a choice any more as much as it is, pick your lesser evil (which is entirely subjective to your beliefs).

[IHStangFan]

Originally posted by I_Do_Care
i wasn't detracting, but adding! hence the "dialectical" comment! ;) It likely sounded that way, apologies brutha Stang Fan! ;) my bad, my bad, I misread. You are correct. :)

[Reds fan]

Stop this bailout madness and cut taxes, especially on capital gains and sit back and watch the recovery!

Those companies that have received bailout moneys should have their top executives removed, as a bankruptcy judge would do, and then be restructured with new management. Those new managers that perform should not be limited in pay as has been proposed, but rewarded with compensation for a job well done, and those that fail should be fired. There has got to be a fear of failure instilled back into managers and CEO's, only then will companies operate with the best interest of all in mind!

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Reds fan
Stop this bailout madness and cut taxes, especially on capital gains and sit back and watch the recovery!

Oh yes.. Trickle down economics!!! oh wait a minute.. tried that before and didnt work. the rich just got richer.. Hey how about trying another aproach.. Lets try giving massive tax cuts for folks who earn less than $100,000 to $130,000 a year. I mean big big cuts and sit back and see what happens.

[SWMustang]

Wall Street needs to be overhauled. I thought a CEO's job was to run a successful company? The job has morphed into creating a public image that the company is doing well and satisfying investors - every single quarter. Rewarding CEO with stock options compounds the problem as most CEO's don't really care what their actions will do 5-10 years down the road. Many senior execs tenure is 3-5 years. They come in accomplish one thing and then go somewhere else. Then another executive team comes in - usually "turn around" specialists and fix the problems.

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Oh yes.. Trickle down economics!!! oh wait a minute.. tried that before and didnt work. the rich just got richer.. Hey how about trying another aproach.. Lets try giving massive tax cuts for folks who earn less than $100,000 to $130,000 a year. I mean big big cuts and sit back and see what happens.

Where did I say not to cut taxes for those making $130K or less? The bigger the better. But cutting taxes for only select "classes" is wrong. Again, class warfare is brought to the table, and the emotional rhetoric that brings, tearing at the heart of an economic recovery.

Tax cuts work, are you denying the tax cuts of the 80's did not pull this country out of the recession the 1976-1980 administration created that had inflation rates soar into double digits, mortgage interest rates in the teens, gasoline shortages etc? If folk would look at history honestly and without revision, we can learn a lot.

As for "trickle down economics", all we are looking at now is the "hope" of trickle down from government spending? History shows a poor track record there.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Reds fan
If folk would look at history honestly and without revision, we can learn a lot.

As for "trickle down economics", all we are looking at now is the "hope" of trickle down from government spending? History shows a poor track record there. #1 Spending went completely out of controle in the last 8 years. Look at the deficit 8 years a go and look at it now. and then now look at the fix we are in.... as for history and Presidents and Prosperity and Preformance I think Forbes magazine hit it on the head with this Study.. your familiar with Forbes arent you? Its practicaly the fiscal conservatives Bible.. Check this link out.
FORBES Presidents and Prosperity Rankings (http://www.forbes.com/2004/07/20/cx_da_0720presidents.html)
It ranks the Presidents when it comes to the Economy using factual economic data like the leading economic indicators.

[Aesculus gilmus]

You need to stick to football here, peons. The international bankers CONTROL the world and NOTHING you say can change that. (cue Vincent Price evil laughter)

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
#1 Spending went completely out of controle in the last 8 years.

You bet it did! And now we are getting even more of the same? Is this the "hope" we want? :(

[I_Do_Care]

Originally posted by Aesculus gilmus
You need to stick to football here, peons. The international bankers CONTROL the world and NOTHING you say can change that. (cue Vincent Price evil laughter) True that! :)

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Reds fan
You bet it did! And now we are getting even more of the same? Is this the "hope" we want? :( Well I think most of the spending you dont like is damage controle from the damage done in the last 6-8 years. I would much rather "SPEND" money building OUR infrastructure like Schools, roads, bridges, and invest in alternative energy sources than "Spend" on Iraqs Ifrasturcture and security..... IMO that spending is 100 times better than the previous.

[Ingleside Fan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Oh yes.. Trickle down economics!!! oh wait a minute.. tried that before and didnt work. the rich just got richer.. Hey how about trying another aproach.. Lets try giving massive tax cuts for folks who earn less than $100,000 to $130,000 a year. I mean big big cuts and sit back and see what happens.

Democrats will never reduce our taxes. President Kennedy was the last Democrat that cut taxes. My wife and I made between $100,000 to $130,000 this year and paid over $20,000 in taxes. This Bailout thing needs to be stopped. When I can't afford something we save up or we don't get it. The Government needs to do the same thing. Let the companies fail! The Government would not bail me out if I didn't pay my morgage or my bills. Would they?

[87 TIGER]

Do you guys realize how much 1 billion dollars is? 1 billion is 1000 million.The auto industry alone ask for 25 billion , there is 300 million people in america men, women, and children. Divide that up and that is $83,000.00 per person . The banks bailout was 700 billion. We could all be rich. Give every American $83,000 and they will save the auto industry.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Well I think most of the spending you dont like is damage controle from the damage done in the last 6-8 years. I would much rather "SPEND" money building OUR infrastructure like Schools, roads, bridges, and invest in alternative energy sources than "Spend" on Iraqs Ifrasturcture and security..... IMO that spending is 100 times better than the previous.

It's not damage ontrol - it's just more damage. I wish people could pull their head out of their backsides and quit bickering about left/right issues and realize it's a getting screwed issue

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Well I think most of the spending you dont like is damage controle from the damage done in the last 6-8 years. I would much rather "SPEND" money building OUR infrastructure like Schools, roads, bridges, and invest in alternative energy sources than "Spend" on Iraqs Ifrasturcture and security..... IMO that spending is 100 times better than the previous.
.
Where in this "stimulus" or "bailout" do you see much money actually being spent on infrastructure like schools(colleges don't need more money, look at the price of higher education), roads, bridges and "alternative energy sources". Many reports have listed just 37-38 billion of this "stimulus package" that actually could impact the economy, but the rest is related to the current controlling socialist aka progressive agenda from the past 40 or so years. Just how much are we spending on Iraqi infrastructure and security? Isn't Iraq gonna pay some of that back? I was under the impression they were.
BM, I'm not picking on you but I thought the original subject was all about the "bailout solutions" and not under-handed attacks about the former President. He STILL can't run for office again but some of you just keep on keeping your attacks up.:p

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
Where in this "stimulus" or "bailout" do you see much money actually being spent on infrastructure like schools(colleges don't need more money, look at the price of higher education), roads, bridges and "alternative energy sources". Many reports have listed just 37-38 billion of this "stimulus package" that actually could impact the economy, but the rest is related to the current controlling socialist aka progressive agenda from the past 40 or so years. Just how much are we spending on Iraqi infrastructure and security? Isn't Iraq gonna pay some of that back? I was under the impression they were.
BM, I'm not picking on you but I thought the original subject was all about the "bailout solutions" and not under-handed attacks about the former President. He STILL can't run for office again but some of you just keep on keeping your attacks up.:p
The Stimulus is in several parts. when you build alternative forms of energy production you do two things. create jobs( got to build the stuff) and stop using so much foriegn oil. Tax cut. Helps families and some business because they spend the money. Infrastructure- Takes people to build schools bridges, roads, ect.. We need that anyway, ever hear of a bridge colapsing and killing dozens of folks in the last two years???

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
#1 Spending went completely out of controle in the last 8 years. Look at the deficit 8 years a go and look at it now. and then now look at the fix we are in.... as for history and Presidents and Prosperity and Preformance I think Forbes magazine hit it on the head with this Study.. your familiar with Forbes arent you? Its practicaly the fiscal conservatives Bible.. Check this link out.
FORBES Presidents and Prosperity Rankings (http://www.forbes.com/2004/07/20/cx_da_0720presidents.html)
It ranks the Presidents when it comes to the Economy using factual economic data like the leading economic indicators.


That study has no way of taking into account the "pass-along" effects of each president. Bush's numbers are killed by a war that Clinton should have started. Not trying to start a different debate but Clinton being at the top of that list is a huge invalidating factor. Sorry but that's my opinion.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
The Stimulus is in several parts. when you build alternative forms of energy production you do two things. create jobs( got to build the stuff) and stop using so much foriegn oil. Tax cut. Helps families and some business because they spend the money. Infrastructure- Takes people to build schools bridges, roads, ect.. We need that anyway, ever hear of a bridge colapsing and killing dozens of folks in the last two years???

All of that is great, but it only accounts for about $30 billion of this $900 billion + stimucrap package they are shoving down out throuts, that even our grandchildrens grandchildren will still be paying for after all those Washington morons are long gone. The rest of the bill is a bunch of Socialist programs they have wanted to pass for years but never had enough to support to do it. Even now they dont have the majority of public support for it, but they are siezing this oppertunity to cram it in this bill, and attempting to disquise it as stimulous for the economy, when in reality most of it will only wreck the economy further.
If you folks think things are getting bad now, just wait a couple years till this whole stimucrap mess kicks in good. We're all going to get a good taste of what the folks in the 30s went through if our government stays on the course they're on now. But it unfortunatley looks like that's what it's going to take to wake this country up and hopefully put it back on the right track. Hang on folks, it's gonna be a rough ride.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
That study has no way of taking into account the "pass-along" effects of each president. Bush's numbers are killed by a war that Clinton should have started. Not trying to start a different debate but Clinton being at the top of that list is a huge invalidating factor. Sorry but that's my opinion. sorry you dont like the Numbers. the math does not lie. They are just economic facts and when you look at all the leading economic indicators they dont lie. SO, you think part of Bushes problems were from a spill over of bad policy from Regans 8 Years???;) :p

[OldBison75]

Let's all get real about the situation. In the Clinton Administration we were told over and over that Social Security was failing and our children and some current "baby boomers" would not have SS. The emphasis was on fixing that problem. Nothing happened and it was all the Republicans fault for not sigining onto Clinton's plan. Somehow, no one is talking about Social Security now, did it fix itself or was it a farce in the first place? Now we have the energy,banking,welfare, and whatever else failure that the government has decided it is thier responsibility to pay for with our money. Does it ever occur to anybody that the tax dollars you and I pay will be the same dollars paid back to me when the job those dollars create is given to me? So, I pay myself to work for someone else, what a concept. If the government is gonna give away money, give every taxpayer back money and fix the IRS system. Make a flat rate tax that applies to everyone. If every taxpayer paid 10% of its gross income for taxes, including the rich and big corporations, the individual burden would be much less than now and the government and each taxpayer would have more spendable cash. More cash means more dollars in the economy and that means more jobs. I know that sounds simplistic, but instead of corporations giving million dollar bonuses to fat head bosses, pay that money in corporate taxes.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by OldBison75
Make a flat rate tax that applies to everyone. If every taxpayer paid 10% of its gross income for taxes, including the rich and big corporations, the individual burden would be much less than now and the government and each taxpayer would have more spendable cash. bad Idea. your now placing a burden on folks who are already at or below the poverty level. at the same time giving the good old executive a tax cut who just got $10 million dollar bonus who worked for a company who was saved by tax payers... the fat cats dont need a dime in help. in fact they have been let off the hook for way to long. party is over. time to step up to the plate and pay your just dues for what you have been given.

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
bad Idea. your now placing a burden on folks who are already at or below the poverty level. at the same time giving the good old executive a tax cut who just got $10 million dollar bonus who worked for a company who was saved by tax payers... the fat cats dont need a dime in help. in fact they have been let off the hook for way to long. party is over. time to step up to the plate and pay your just dues for what you have been given.

Over and over, class warfare is your answer:rolleyes:

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Reds fan
Over and over, class warfare is your answer:rolleyes: Trickle down is yours. thats give the money to the rich and they will out of the kindness of thier hearts provide the poor with a job so they can eat.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Trickle down is yours. thats give the money to the rich and they will out of the kindness of thier hearts provide the poor with a job so they can eat.
.
How many poor folks do you personally know? Have you seen children here in the good Ole USA starve? Highly unlikely...
Back 30, 50 or more years ago there were starving children here but that just doesn't happen anymore. The only time children starve is when parents are negligent.
You mentioned the rich got richer and the poor got poorer on an earlier post.
That couldn't be further from the truth.
Everyone, from the rich to the poor all got richer compared to past generations.
But when you partake in class warfare to make points you tend to not see the forest from the trees.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
sorry you dont like the Numbers. the math does not lie. They are just economic facts and when you look at all the leading economic indicators they dont lie. SO, you think part of Bushes problems were from a spill over of bad policy from Regans 8 Years???;) :p


You are correct. The math doesn't lie. All I said was that study proves nothing in the way of quality of presidents. It's a blind, misleading study that measures economic conditions without regard for causes or effects. Very interesting reading but we need to keep it in perspective.

[OldBison75]

Nobody gets off the flat tax rate I talked about. The family making 10,000 per year pays 10% as does the executive making 10 million, and his company making 10 billion. No exemptions, no breaks, company income is taxed at 10% across the board. Then the rich pay for an equal "share" of the burden based on thier income without loopholes to cheat. The IRS could be reduced to a 10th of it's current size and the dollars saved in salaries alone at the IRS would fund a pretty good health care system that would serve all citizens.

Quit playing Robin Hood and make people work to get ahead. As long as we keep giving to those that won't work, they will keep taking all we give and wanting more and breeding more future beggars.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
bad Idea. your now placing a burden on folks who are already at or below the poverty level. at the same time giving the good old executive a tax cut who just got $10 million dollar bonus who worked for a company who was saved by tax payers... the fat cats dont need a dime in help. in fact they have been let off the hook for way to long. party is over. time to step up to the plate and pay your just dues for what you have been given.


This is horrible thinking in my opinion. Why should a successful person pay more taxes than a less successful one? All people should shoulder an equal responsibility for the tax base. In a capitalist economy it makes no sense to burden the wealthy with more than their fair share. I'm one of the poor ones but would vote for a flat tax.......

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
How many poor folks do you personally know? Have you seen children here in the good Ole USA starve? Highly unlikely...
Back 30, 50 or more years ago there were starving children here but that just doesn't happen anymore. The only time children starve is when parents are negligent.
You mentioned the rich got richer and the poor got poorer on an earlier post.
That couldn't be further from the truth.
Everyone, from the rich to the poor all got richer compared to past generations.
But when you partake in class warfare to make points you tend to not see the forest from the trees.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
This is horrible thinking in my opinion. Why should a successful person pay more taxes than a less successful one? All people should shoulder an equal responsibility for the tax base. In a capitalist economy it makes no sense to burden the wealthy with more than their fair share. I'm one of the poor ones but would vote for a flat tax.......

I know what his answer will be - regressive taxes. Here's the deal - the poor people aren't paying taxes and apparently the wealthy aren't paying either - at least not the wealthy trying to get on Obama's cabinet :) so why not simplify it? 10% sounds good to me. As it stands does 39% sound fair?

[Farmersfan]

Over and over and over I read statements by posters on here, writers in newspapers and TV personalities about how horrible our economy is. I ask: Is it really that bad? Are we currently undergoing a economic correction of a economy that was TOO FAT in the first place or is it truely a sign of bad times ahead. I had a discussion with a friend of mine about the value of his house. He was really, really concerned with the declining value of his home. So I asked if he was selling his house and moving. He said no! I asked if he was considering taking a equity loan on his home? He said No! So I asked what benefit did a higher home value have to him or his family? In fact if the value fell to 50% of it's previous value it would benefit him in lower taxes and lower insurance premiums for replacement value. He refused to acknowledge the rationale. My mother-in-law has a substantial amount of money invested in the market. She calls me weekly in a total panic. "We lost enough last quarter to buy us both a new car" she exclaims. I ask if she was planning on buying us a new car??? "No! But that's how much we lost." So I ask if she sold all her investments and got out of the market? "No!" she exclaims. "We are too far down for that". So I ask her how many shares of American funds Capital income builder she is down? "Why we aren't down any shares" she states. You see where this is going? She doesn't understand that it is only a perceived value of a product that she owns that is down. Unless she decides to take the reduced value for her product and sell it then she still owns the same amount of product. In fact it is a excellent opportunity. Last year she was happily paying 55.00 per share for the product but now she balks at paying 33.00 for the exact same product. She was wanting to put more and more money into that thing when it was way up there at 55.00 but thinks it's crazy to put any money into it now that it's at 33.00. This kind of thinking is what has our economy in such a state. People have a sky-Is-Falling attitude and there is no confidence. The productivity and abilities of Americans has not changed a bit. Just the attitudes.... So how do we get our CAN-DO American attitude back?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by SWMustang
I know what his answer will be - regressive taxes. Here's the deal - the poor people aren't paying taxes and apparently the wealthy aren't paying either - at least not the wealthy trying to get on Obama's cabinet :) so why not simplify it? 10% sounds good to me. As it stands does 39% sound fair?


It is a common misstatement that the rich don't pay taxes. But it has been proven that 10% of Americans pay 70% of the taxes in this country. And only about 70% of Americans pay ANY taxes. That 30% that pay nothing. That's 3 out of every ten pays not even a penny.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by OldBison75
Let's all get real about the situation. In the Clinton Administration we were told over and over that Social Security was failing and our children and some current "baby boomers" would not have SS. The emphasis was on fixing that problem. Nothing happened and it was all the Republicans fault for not sigining onto Clinton's plan. Somehow, no one is talking about Social Security now, did it fix itself or was it a farce in the first place? Now we have the energy,banking,welfare, and whatever else failure that the government has decided it is thier responsibility to pay for with our money. Does it ever occur to anybody that the tax dollars you and I pay will be the same dollars paid back to me when the job those dollars create is given to me? So, I pay myself to work for someone else, what a concept. If the government is gonna give away money, give every taxpayer back money and fix the IRS system. Make a flat rate tax that applies to everyone. If every taxpayer paid 10% of its gross income for taxes, including the rich and big corporations, the individual burden would be much less than now and the government and each taxpayer would have more spendable cash. More cash means more dollars in the economy and that means more jobs. I know that sounds simplistic, but instead of corporations giving million dollar bonuses to fat head bosses, pay that money in corporate taxes.

It is very simplistic and would work well, which is exactly why we will never see it. The same could be said for Mike Huckabee's idea of doing away with the IRS and instead having a consumers tax. Both would work great and would solve lots of problems, but we'll never see either because the powers that be cant figure out how they could minipulate the numbers to their advantage. When I say powers that be, I'm not just talking about the idealist Socialists morons in power now. There are plenty of self serving so called conservatives that are no better. One group just reaches right streight in your pocket while smiling at you, and the other sneakily cuts the bottom out and catches what falls. And until Americans get feed up enough to do what is necessary to take this country back, it'll just keep on keeping on. I'm not sure we'll ever see that happen though.:(

[OldBison75]

StangRed, you are right about the politicians, I don't care much for either side. I put my proposal on the table because it makes common sense and not because it is a Republican or Democratic idea. But, I know it will never happen in this country since that would take away the little minded politicians ability to manipulate numbers and line their pockets. I do think it is real funny that the same politicians complaining about the big bonuses to corporate bosses, are the same elected people that accept millions in campaign contributions and perks in return for favors and pork barrel projects.

[Black_Magic]

The Flat tax would fundamentaly change who pays taxes. It esentialy would give a huge tax cut to the wealthy and increase taxes on the poor. maybe its a good Idea. The wealthy sure are suffering now. and the poor have it made so lets do it....:rolleyes:

[OldBison75]

That's the very logic that is misrepresented daily by politicians. The flat tax would take away all credits and deductions, therefore, a person making 1,000,000 per year would pay 100,000 in taxes. A person making 20,000 would pay 2,000. The 1,000,000 per year man would not be able to buy junk properties as second homes, and hide money in retirement funds, mutual funds, etc, to delay or avoid paying taxes. The problem with the current systems is that the more you have, the more ways you can write off lots of that income and shelter it from taxes. The lower classhas little or no write off ability and the only way to ease the tax burden is to have more and more dependents. In other words, have more kids so that there will be more people in the future that fight the economic conditions so you can have more on your plate now.

Right now, most people making over $500,000 per year pay less than 10% in income taxes after deductions and loopholes protect large chunks of the income. Why not let them pay ten percent with no deductions and every individual will be paying a proportionate share of their income. No income tax returns, no IRS to suck money from people, and even better, no politicians that can play the cut taxes card when they cut in one place and increase the burden in another. There has not been a real tax cut in overall taxes in over 100 years--why do you believe it may happen anytime soon. They cut income taxes and raise gasoline taxes. The lower property taxes and raise sales taxes. The final product dosent change much, but it sounds good to the believers and ignorant.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
The Flat tax would fundamentaly change who pays taxes. It esentialy would give a huge tax cut to the wealthy and increase taxes on the poor. maybe its a good Idea. The wealthy sure are suffering now. and the poor have it made so lets do it....:rolleyes:


I recognize this as sarcasm and agree with the underlying intent. But the fact still remains that your thinking makes success responsible for failure(or lack of success). There is a reason successful people are successful and poor people are poor. There are a million hardship stories out there but the truth is a harsh reality. Most people aren't capable of being successful and "BELONG" in a low economic class. We are creatures of habit and a little success kills the opportunity for further success. A little gain in the stock market will send most to a car lot for a newer more expensive car. A raise at the job doesn't mean more investments into retirement for most people it means a extra pair of Oakleys or some mudders on the ole 4X4. To try and make those who have the insight or luck to be successful responsible for all those who don't is not acceptable in my books. Besides, Success is subjective also. A poor man with a loving family is much more successful in my books and a rich man who lives alone....

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by STANG RED
It is very simplistic and would work well, which is exactly why we will never see it. The same could be said for Mike Huckabee's idea of doing away with the IRS and instead having a consumers tax. Both would work great and would solve lots of problems, but we'll never see either because the powers that be cant figure out how they could minipulate the numbers to their advantage. When I say powers that be, I'm not just talking about the idealist Socialists morons in power now. There are plenty of self serving so called conservatives that are no better. One group just reaches right streight in your pocket while smiling at you, and the other sneakily cuts the bottom out and catches what falls. And until Americans get feed up enough to do what is necessary to take this country back, it'll just keep on keeping on. I'm not sure we'll ever see that happen though.:(


I'm with you STang!! Lead on!!!!

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I recognize this as sarcasm and agree with the underlying intent. But the fact still remains that your thinking makes success responsible for failure(or lack of success). There is a reason successful people are successful and poor people are poor. There are a million hardship stories out there but the truth is a harsh reality. Most people aren't capable of being successful and "BELONG" in a low economic class. We are creatures of habit and a little success kills the opportunity for further success. A little gain in the stock market will send most to a car lot for a newer more expensive car. A raise at the job doesn't mean more investments into retirement for most people it means a extra pair of Oakleys or some mudders on the ole 4X4. To try and make those who have the insight or luck to be successful responsible for all those who don't is not acceptable in my books. Besides, Success is subjective also. A poor man with a loving family is much more successful in my books and a rich man who lives alone....

Very well stated:2thumbsup

[Ingleside Fan]

Originally posted by STANG RED
It is very simplistic and would work well, which is exactly why we will never see it. The same could be said for Mike Huckabee's idea of doing away with the IRS and instead having a consumers tax. Both would work great and would solve lots of problems, but we'll never see either because the powers that be cant figure out how they could minipulate the numbers to their advantage. When I say powers that be, I'm not just talking about the idealist Socialists morons in power now. There are plenty of self serving so called conservatives that are no better. One group just reaches right streight in your pocket while smiling at you, and the other sneakily cuts the bottom out and catches what falls. And until Americans get feed up enough to do what is necessary to take this country back, it'll just keep on keeping on. I'm not sure we'll ever see that happen though.:(


Amen! I am with you.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by OldBison75
Nobody gets off the flat tax rate I talked about. The family making 10,000 per year pays 10% as does the executive making 10 million, and his company making 10 billion. No exemptions, no breaks, company income is taxed at 10% across the board. Then the rich pay for an equal "share" of the burden based on thier income without loopholes to cheat. The IRS could be reduced to a 10th of it's current size and the dollars saved in salaries alone at the IRS would fund a pretty good health care system that would serve all citizens.

Quit playing Robin Hood and make people work to get ahead. As long as we keep giving to those that won't work, they will keep taking all we give and wanting more and breeding more future beggars.
.
I think the flat tax is awesome. Only problem is everyone pays the same rate. Fairness in it's purest form, common sense some might even say...
that is why it won't pass. Or maybe those in charge now, seeking the greatest power grab in the history of this great country, would only look at fairness in the form of the "Fairness doctrine".
.
About the "pretty good health care system that would serve all citizens"... bad bad bad idea. We don't need socialist healthcare. Look at all the Canadians, British, or anyone from a socialist healthcare system who come here now for the best quality healthcare in the world. Just use the savings to pay off the federal debt. Then again that might be considered common sense.:doh:

[OldBison75]

When I talk about a health care system, O definitely don't mean a government controlled health system for all, I just think a competent system at reasonable cost should be provided for those with nothing. Let's call it a basic health care system for all and a person can choose to have coverage above and beyond that level.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by OldBison75
When I talk about a health care system, O definitely don't mean a government controlled health system for all, I just think a competent system at reasonable cost should be provided for those with nothing. Let's call it a basic health care system for all and a person can choose to have coverage above and beyond that level.
.
A private-run government-funded system of clinics? No no and NO.:D
The largest percentage of those who don't need or refuse insurance medical coverage today are college age folks... think about how often they really need coverage; yet they are often those statistics that socialist use to prove that too many Americans go without medical healthcare today.
We are in a medical healthcare crisis today because many college folk don't see a need to have medical insurance...
.
BTW, some economists point out that if all medical insurance was outlawed tomorrow your current insurance co-pay would be close to your actual new payment.:D aka cut out the middle man...

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by OldBison75
When I talk about a health care system, O definitely don't mean a government controlled health system for all, I just think a competent system at reasonable cost should be provided for those with nothing. Let's call it a basic health care system for all and a person can choose to have coverage above and beyond that level.


What Government controlled program works well now???? A healthcare system run by the government would be a nightmare. And in our society the "Lowly" free healthcare receipiants would soon be screaming for equal care to the "elite" healthcare programs that people pay for themselves. Remember! The poor will just keep expecting more no matter how much they get for free. Healthcare will not be any different.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I recognize this as sarcasm and agree with the underlying intent. But the fact still remains that your thinking makes success responsible for failure(or lack of success). There is a reason successful people are successful and poor people are poor. There are a million hardship stories out there but the truth is a harsh reality. Most people aren't capable of being successful and "BELONG" in a low economic class. We are creatures of habit and a little success kills the opportunity for further success. A little gain in the stock market will send most to a car lot for a newer more expensive car. A raise at the job doesn't mean more investments into retirement for most people it means a extra pair of Oakleys or some mudders on the ole 4X4. To try and make those who have the insight or luck to be successful responsible for all those who don't is not acceptable in my books. Besides, Success is subjective also. A poor man with a loving family is much more successful in my books and a rich man who lives alone.... Many many folks are succesfull because of OLD money.. that is the business and wealth is passed on. Not that they work any harder. but most actualy dont work as hard as many who work thier fingers to the bone for a puny wage. Why is it like that? its the same reason it nearly always has been like that. The Rich have power and money. the poor dont no matter how hard they work or study most dont make it above the middle class. If you expect me to believe that the reason wealthy and porwerfull people are wealthy and powerfull is because of thier hard work you can save it. You know as well as I do thats not right. ever hear the term " Banker hours". that term didnt come from them working long hours. it comes from them being able to go golfing at 3 PM. Executives in this country have learned one thing for sure in this mess. All you need to do is take the money and run. no need to work hard for the bottom line because the bottom line does not matter because the tax payers will bail out your company so it can aford to pay you the $5,000,000 bonus... The middle class and poor of this county have been getting the shaft in this country for a long time now and now your solution is to increase the size of the shaft ... wow...:rolleyes:

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Many many folks are succesfull because of OLD money.. that is the business and wealth is passed on. Not that they work any harder. but most actualy dont work as hard as many who work thier fingers to the bone for a puny wage. Why is it like that? its the same reason it nearly always has been like that. The Rich have power and money. the poor dont no matter how hard they work or study most dont make it above the middle class. If you expect me to believe that the reason wealthy and porwerfull people are wealthy and powerfull is because of thier hard work you can save it. You know as well as I do thats not right. ever hear the term " Banker hours". that term didnt come from them working long hours. it comes from them being able to go golfing at 3 PM. Executives in this country have learned one thing for sure in this mess. All you need to do is take the money and run. no need to work hard for the bottom line because the bottom line does not matter because the tax payers will bail out your company so it can aford to pay you the $5,000,000 bonus... The middle class and poor of this county have been getting the shaft in this country for a long time now and now your solution is to increase the size of the shaft ... wow...:rolleyes:

Pretty simplistic view if you think " The Rich have power and money. the poor dont no matter how hard they work or study most dont make it above the middle class." I was born poor to working class folks and now am a proud member of the middle class. There are many folks who have done very well but started with very little. To claim otherwise is foolish at best. Do most people make it big? Of course not, but that doesn't detract from the FACT that many people do well. I have a very good friend who started out driving a garbage truck and now owns his own waste removal company. I honestly believe he would disagree with almost all of your post.

"All you need to do is take the money and run. no need to work hard for the bottom line because the bottom line does not matter because the tax payers will bail out your company so it can aford to pay you the $5,000,000 bonus" What a stretch! First, you have no idea how hard they work. Second, people who receive a $5,000,000 bonus are so few in number they don't make a blip on a statistical basis. Third, far more companies have had to declare bankruptcy than have awarded bonuses of the size you cite. Where was their government "bailout"? Matter of fact, a person who makes $100, 000 per year falls in the upper 5% of all taxpayers.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by ronwx5x
Pretty simplistic view if you think " The Rich have power and money. the poor dont no matter how hard they work or study most dont make it above the middle class." I was born poor to working class folks and now am a proud member of the middle class. There are many folks who have done very well but started with very little. To claim otherwise is foolish at best. Do most people make it big? Of course not, but that doesn't detract from the FACT that many people do well. I have a very good friend who started out driving a garbage truck and now owns his own waste removal company. I honestly believe he would disagree with almost all of your post.

"All you need to do is take the money and run. no need to work hard for the bottom line because the bottom line does not matter because the tax payers will bail out your company so it can aford to pay you the $5,000,000 bonus" What a stretch! First, you have no idea how hard they work. Second, people who receive a $5,000,000 bonus are so few in number they don't make a blip on a statistical basis. Third, far more companies have had to declare bankruptcy than have awarded bonuses of the size you cite. Where was their government "bailout"? Matter of fact, a person who makes $100, 000 per year falls in the upper 5% of all taxpayers. There are exceptions that can be found all over the place. exceptions are not proof but just an exception. Sure there are success stories.. Im not talking about the guy who makes $100,000 a year. thats middle class. Im talking about the guy who makes $500,000 or so and up. To suggest that they need a tax cut is crazy. To think that they need a tax cut in order for them to keep from laying off workers so that the bottom line does not suffer is backwards. Here is a novel Idea... How about having the owner Sell ONE of his vacation homes or maybe not buy that 2nd lexus so that he wont have to lay off one of his workers that has 3 kids to feed. Its all about sacrifice. right now its the middle class and the poor who look like they are doing ALL of the REAL sacrificing.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by ronwx5x
Pretty simplistic view if you think " The Rich have power and money. the poor dont no matter how hard they work or study most dont make it above the middle class." I was born poor to working class folks and now am a proud member of the middle class. There are many folks who have done very well but started with very little. To claim otherwise is foolish at best. Do most people make it big? Of course not, but that doesn't detract from the FACT that many people do well. I have a very good friend who started out driving a garbage truck and now owns his own waste removal company. I honestly believe he would disagree with almost all of your post.

"All you need to do is take the money and run. no need to work hard for the bottom line because the bottom line does not matter because the tax payers will bail out your company so it can aford to pay you the $5,000,000 bonus" What a stretch! First, you have no idea how hard they work. Second, people who receive a $5,000,000 bonus are so few in number they don't make a blip on a statistical basis. Third, far more companies have had to declare bankruptcy than have awarded bonuses of the size you cite. Where was their government "bailout"? Matter of fact, a person who makes $100, 000 per year falls in the upper 5% of all taxpayers.

Your wasting your time trying to explain the true American way to the socialist mind set. They don’t understand that working harder and smarter should be rewarded. They think those who refuse to work hard or smart enough should just be given what they can’t earn. I don’t think incentive is even in the socialist vocabulary. And most don’t even care that the freebies they demand and often get are not free at all. Frankly I'm tired of paying for their lazy ass socialist lifestyles, and I know the majority of honest hard working Americans are as well.

I've spent the majority of my working life working paycheck to paycheck and struggling to pay my bills. But I knew that if I worked hard and smart enough, it would all pay off in the long run. Now that I'm finally beginning to see the fruits from all of those 60 and 70+ hour weeks payoff, the socialists are wanting to take much of it away from me. I'm a generous and charitable person, but I should be able to give when, where, and how much I want. I don’t appreciate the government taking my hard earned tax money to support those who simply aren’t willing to make the same sacrifices and work as hard as I have always been willing to do to better my family’s lifestyle.

By the way, I’m not talking about the disabled or people like the little old ladies trying to live on way too small fixed pensions. I’m more than happy for my tax money to go to helping those people out as much as possible.

[CenTexSports]

If you never believed that TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS works then you have to believe now. It is just as bad on the downswing as it is good on the upswing. When the economy is humming and growing at a reasonable pace the economic benefits trickle down through the entire country (at least to those that choose to work).

We are now seeing the reverse and as the larger companies and entreprenuers (sp) suffer, there is nothing to trickle down (except the pain).

What the bailouts are attempting is to force a recovery through the middle class and it just won't work. In fact, it was in part the governments attenpt to force home ownership to middle to low income people that started this collaspe by artifically approving people for homes they could not afford or sustain.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by CenTexSports
If you never believed that TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS works then you have to believe now. It is just as bad on the downswing as it is good on the upswing. When the economy is humming and growing at a reasonable pace the economic benefits trickle down through the entire country (at least to those that choose to work).

We are now seeing the reverse and as the larger companies and entreprenuers (sp) suffer, there is nothing to trickle down (except the pain).

What the bailouts are attempting is to force a recovery through the middle class and it just won't work. In fact, it was in part the governments attenpt to force home ownership to middle to low income people that started this collaspe by artifically approving people for homes they could not afford or sustain. WOW... So the way out of this mess is to do MORE of the same that we have done the last 8 years.... WOW!! :clap: Im glad we are heading in a different direction.:rolleyes: Im glad we are not deciding to go back to the principles that governed us during the industrial revolution. At least we are looking forward instead of the past. ... At least most of us sided with a change in course when we went to the polls. we shall see what hapens in about 4 years when things start to get way better.

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
There are exceptions that can be found all over the place. exceptions are not proof but just an exception. Sure there are success stories.. Im not talking about the guy who makes $100,000 a year. thats middle class. Im talking about the guy who makes $500,000 or so and up. To suggest that they need a tax cut is crazy. To think that they need a tax cut in order for them to keep from laying off workers so that the bottom line does not suffer is backwards. Here is a novel Idea... How about having the owner Sell ONE of his vacation homes or maybe not buy that 2nd lexus so that he wont have to lay off one of his workers that has 3 kids to feed. Its all about sacrifice. right now its the middle class and the poor who look like they are doing ALL of the REAL sacrificing.

Again, pretty simplistic. First, you said nothing in your previous post about tax cuts for the wealthy, just how the lower class had no chance at all to advance. Let's stay focused here. I have a real problem understanding how you expect someone who has a business to lay off workers without making some cuts in his own pay. Are you speaking of executives or business owners? Business owners will go to almost any extreme to avoid laying off workers or filing bankruptcy since they would then have no means of income. This would including selling assets. And since all assets in a family owned business belong to the owners, whether they sell business assets or personal assets makes no difference. Now if you are referring to highly paid executives, they don't make the decision how much they will be paid, the board of directors does. So how would an executive selling assets help workers that he doesn't pay for to begin with?

Second, we have a problem with people not spending, thus crippling the economy. Now I'm not saying not buy that buying that 2nd Lexus is a big help to the economy, but thousands of people holding off making purchases is certainly not helping the economy.

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
WOW... So the way out of this mess is to do MORE of the same that we have done the last 8 years.... WOW!! :clap: Im glad we are heading in a different direction.:rolleyes: Im glad we are not deciding to go back to the principles that governed us during the industrial revolution. At least we are looking forward instead of the past. ... At least most of us sided with a change in course when we went to the polls. we shall see what hapens in about 4 years when things start to get way better.

Hold on here, let's get focused again and quit using the "shotgun" approach. No one is advocating that we "go back to the principles that governed us during the industrial revolution." You were talking about your belief that middle class folks have no opportunity to improve themselves. That may have been true during the "industrial revolution" but certainly is not true today. I think that our new president proves the "anyone can get ahead" maxim. Don't you?

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by ronwx5x
You were talking about your belief that middle class folks have no opportunity to improve themselves. I never said that... Sure they do. but I am saying that it is Bull to say that the folks in power and with wealth are there because of hard work. Thats as stupid to assert that the folks who are poor are all lazy.

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
The Rich have power and money. the poor dont no matter how hard they work or study most dont make it above the middle class.

Originally posted by Black_Magic
I never said that... Sure they do. but I am saying that it is Bull to say that the folks in power and with wealth are there because of hard work. Thats as stupid to assert that the folks who are poor are all lazy.

Here is what you said above. I did misquote you on "poor" vs. "middle" class, but the result is pretty much the same.
That is as naive as your intimating folks who succeed are not hard workers. I would venture a guess that there are more people who are well off through personal effort than there are who are well off through inheritance. Me, for one.

And by the way, no one, and I mean no one on this board said the poor are all lazy. More shotgun and smoke to avoid addressing the real issues.

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by ronwx5x
Here is what you said above. I did misquote you on "poor" vs. "middle" class, but the result is pretty much the same.
That is as naive as your intimating folks who succeed are not hard workers. I would venture a guess that there are more people who are well off through personal effort than there are who are well off through inheritance. Me, for one. You clearly have no clue about how much old money there is in this world. there is so many people who are wealthy because of mom and dad, and Grampa ect it would shock you. I never said middle class folks cant inmprove them selves. sure they can. But I am saying that most wealthy folks are not that way because of hard work. they are that way because of position. You have a very simplistic way of looking at the world and especialy the US. You probably dont think there is racism in the US. there is. Heck . you want to see how unequal things are look at the difference in white collar crime and blue collar crime. Guy who stole billions is walking the street but if a carpenter steals some tools from a home depot he is put in jail. You realy think the rich and powerfull are there because of hard work. Some are.. many are not. But the folks who work for them work hard I bet...:rolleyes:

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
You clearly have no clue about how much old money there is in this world. there is so many people who are wealthy because of mom and dad, and Grampa ect it would shock you. I never said middle class folks cant inmprove them selves. sure they can. But I am saying that most wealthy folks are not that way because of hard work. they are that way because of position. You have a very simplistic way of looking at the world and especialy the US. You probably dont think there is racism in the US. there is. Heck . you want to see how unequal things are look at the difference in white collar crime and blue collar crime. Guy who stole billions is walking the street but if a carpenter steals some tools from a home depot he is put in jail. You realy think the rich and powerfull are there because of hard work. Some are.. many are not. But the folks who work for them work hard I bet...:rolleyes:

Mr. Madoff may disagree with you about walking free. Yes, I know there is a lot of old money, but not many people have it. And once again you drag out the shotgun. Where were you discussing white collar vs. blue collar crime? You don't seem to be equipped to stay on subject. Sort of reminds me of one of those "whack-a-moles" in the carnival. Hit me here, I'll just jump up over there.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
There are exceptions that can be found all over the place. exceptions are not proof but just an exception. Sure there are success stories.. Im not talking about the guy who makes $100,000 a year. thats middle class. Im talking about the guy who makes $500,000 or so and up. To suggest that they need a tax cut is crazy. To think that they need a tax cut in order for them to keep from laying off workers so that the bottom line does not suffer is backwards. Here is a novel Idea... How about having the owner Sell ONE of his vacation homes or maybe not buy that 2nd lexus so that he wont have to lay off one of his workers that has 3 kids to feed. Its all about sacrifice. right now its the middle class and the poor who look like they are doing ALL of the REAL sacrificing.


Here's another novel idea! Why don't we all put our incomes into one big pot and let the government deal it out in equal amounts???????
I think I just saw the flaw in your logic. You claim the middle class and poor are the ones who have sacrificed. I say that is a fine sentiment as long as you use the same criteria for all. When things get tough the middle class and poor sacrifice to insure their own survival but you are asking that the upper class and wealthy "sacrifice" to insure the survival of the middle and poor classes. So you are basically saying that because you give up a luxury for your family then wealthy people should have to give up a luxury for your family also??????

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by ronwx5x
Mr. Madoff may disagree with you about walking free. Yes, I know there is a lot of old money, but not many people have it. And once again you drag out the shotgun. Where were you discussing white collar vs. blue collar crime? You don't seem to be equipped to stay on subject. Sort of reminds me of one of those "whack-a-moles" in the carnival. Hit me here, I'll just jump up over there.


I think we all see the dark pit of liberalism that Black Magic is coming from. You can't argue with someone who feels "entitled"....Bottomline.

[Ingleside Fan]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I think we all see the dark pit of liberalism that Black Magic is coming from. You can't argue with someone who feels "entitled"....Bottomline.

More like Socialism not liberalism.

Socialism: (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
You clearly have no clue about how much old money there is in this world. there is so many people who are wealthy because of mom and dad, and Grampa ect it would shock you. I never said middle class folks cant inmprove them selves. sure they can. But I am saying that most wealthy folks are not that way because of hard work. they are that way because of position. You have a very simplistic way of looking at the world and especialy the US. You probably dont think there is racism in the US. there is. Heck . you want to see how unequal things are look at the difference in white collar crime and blue collar crime. Guy who stole billions is walking the street but if a carpenter steals some tools from a home depot he is put in jail. You realy think the rich and powerfull are there because of hard work. Some are.. many are not. But the folks who work for them work hard I bet...:rolleyes:

does it offend you when people inherit money? Should the government strip them of the money?

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Ingleside Fan
More like Socialism not liberalism.

Socialism: (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

I can't remember where I read it, but I remember seeing the stages of democracy and the turning point is when the citizen's realize they can vote themselves money from the treasury. Ultimately democracies fade into socialism.

[CenTexSports]

Another flaw in BM thesis is that most old money is tied to liberal agendas. The people that earned their money like the system as it is (reward for innovation and hard work) because that is how they got there. Look at the Kennedy's and those "old money" families and see what side of the line they fall on. You will see mostly left wing thinking.

Big government does not produce anything but paper money and at some point this has to be backed up with toil and sweat. Otherwise it becomes just paper.

The federal government will never get us out of hole by printing more money or giving away more money. Only through us circulating the money through work and spending does the economy grow.

[Ingleside Fan]

Originally posted by SWMustang
I can't remember where I read it, but I remember seeing the stages of democracy and the turning point is when the citizen's realize they can vote themselves money from the treasury. Ultimately democracies fade into socialism.


"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." --Lord Alexander Tytler on the fall of the Athenian republic

Here ya go.:)

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by Ingleside Fan
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." --Lord Alexander Tytler on the fall of the Athenian republic

Here ya go.:)

We are indeed staring down a slippery slope:(

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by Ingleside Fan
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." --Lord Alexander Tytler on the fall of the Athenian republic

Here ya go.:)


According to "Wikipedia", Tytler is accorded credit for the quotation after the first paragraph, which is thought to be of unknown origin.

If memory serves, the ancient Greek civilization was the only democacy of the world's great past civilizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Tytler

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Ingleside Fan
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage." --Lord Alexander Tytler on the fall of the Athenian republic

Here ya go.:)


that would be the one! I believe we are in the "apathy to dependency" stage right now.

[Black_Magic]

The theorys that landed us in this mess is exactly what we should get away from. They are failed. I heard Obama's Press comfrence. One thing that realy hit hard was the point that he brought up about the folks who have been in controle for the last 8 years who have doubled our national debt in the same period of time now claiming that a simulus package being waistful in spending when there is not one earmark in the bill.
Look , We tried the lowering of taxes on mostly the wealthy during the bush years. Its a fact that in the last 8 years that the wealthy have benifited the most when it comes to tax cuts. IT DIDNT WORK... Time to change course.. The people have spoken. There was an election. It is over. IF some want to now pretend they are all of a sudden "fiscaly responsible" I say let them go ahead. We all know what has happened in the last 8 years. We all see where we are now. no hiding it. Its Time to try something new. Its now time to go back to SOME of the principles that HELPED to bring us out of the Great Depresion. Its now time to Prime the pump in order for us to get the economy going quickly. Our roads bridges and Schools need updating. people need jobs. This plan is a combination of tax cuts and spending on things we need anyway. Funny how infrastructer and education is now waistfull porkbarell spending..:rolleyes:

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
The theorys that landed us in this mess is exactly what we should get away from. They are failed. I heard Obama's Press comfrence. One thing that realy hit hard was the point that he brought up about the folks who have been in controle for the last 8 years who have doubled our national debt in the same period of time now claiming that a simulus package being waistful in spending when there is not one earmark in the bill.
:


sorry but until Obama says "those in charge" include the democrats that had a hand in the problem IMO all he is doing is screaming nice ole partisan rhetoric.

Why cant the left ADMIT part of the problem was Clinton pushing the banks to start taking on subprime loans that werre going to people that COULD NOT afford the house they lived in..Or people like Barney Frank pushing up the likes of Fannie Mae and such

But no, the "left" wants to make it sound like only the right is to blame

[GetRDoneStangs]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
sorry but until Obama says "those in charge" include the democrats that had a hand in the problem IMO all he is doing is screaming nice ole partisan rhetoric.

Why cant the left ADMIT part of the problem was Clinton pushing the banks to start taking on subprime loans that werre going to people that COULD NOT afford the house they lived in..Or people like Barney Frank pushing up the likes of Fannie Mae and such

But no, the "left" wants to make it sound like only the right is to blame

Give everyone a loan to buy something they could not afford......they ones pointing fingers need to look at their own hands!!!

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
The theorys that landed us in this mess is exactly what we should get away from. They are failed. I heard Obama's Press comfrence. One thing that realy hit hard was the point that he brought up about the folks who have been in controle for the last 8 years who have doubled our national debt in the same period of time now claiming that a simulus package being waistful in spending when there is not one earmark in the bill.
Look , We tried the lowering of taxes on mostly the wealthy during the bush years. Its a fact that in the last 8 years that the wealthy have benifited the most when it comes to tax cuts. IT DIDNT WORK... Time to change course.. The people have spoken. There was an election. It is over. IF some want to now pretend they are all of a sudden "fiscaly responsible" I say let them go ahead. We all know what has happened in the last 8 years. We all see where we are now. no hiding it. Its Time to try something new. Its now time to go back to SOME of the principles that HELPED to bring us out of the Great Depresion. Its now time to Prime the pump in order for us to get the economy going quickly. Our roads bridges and Schools need updating. people need jobs. This plan is a combination of tax cuts and spending on things we need anyway. Funny how infrastructer and education is now waistfull porkbarell spending..:rolleyes:

You must be one of those who want to give tax cuts to those who do not pay anything to begin with. That's not
a tax cut that's welfare. Cut taxes on corporations and the wealthy which allows for more investment thus creating economic growth and jobs. More capital leads to more spending and expansion of the economy. We have one of the highest corporate tax structures in the world which is why jobs have gone overseas thus creating job losses. Individually, why should I be penalized fo hard work and being succesful. There is plenty of opportunity for all. All you have to do is work hard and not expect a handout. The left created the mess we are currently in throught the threats of discriminatory lending. The right warned of the impending problems and only had to deal with the likes of the imcompetent boob Barney Frank, among others, trying to say all was well with the system. The government should have never gotten involved and now they are trying to fix the problem they are the most responsible for creating. The free markets would have resolved this long age (e.g. you don't qualify for a mortgage you don't get one). Not everyone is entitled to a home. Work hard and you will acheive the dream of owning one. The government trying to dictate policy so everyone can qualify for one is absurd and what started the house of cards.