Do we (as a society) place too much emphasis on athletics? [Archive]

Lion_Addict

01-27-2009, 08:16 AM

LH Panther Mom

01-27-2009, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Lion_Addict
Ohhhhhh Mom.........way early to make my brain hurt like this :doh:
Apparently others are having that same affliction. :devil:

PPSTATEBOUND

01-27-2009, 08:55 AM

The answer is yes IMO, along with Pop stars and movie stars.....so overrated.:thinking:

LH Panther Mom

01-27-2009, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by PPSTATEBOUND
The answer is yes IMO, along with Pop stars and movie stars.....so overrated.:thinking:
LOL! :p

Here's more to hurt L_A's brain. :stirpot: :stirpot:

There are "privacy laws" that "protect" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: an 18-year old against the parents knowing ANY information about them, such as college grades, health, etc, even if the parents claim them on taxes as a dependent. Yet "freedom of information" laws allow the media to run amock when they want info. I wonder if a parent could file a FOI against an institution of higher learning in order to find out grades. :thinking: :thinking:

(Don't worry - I have more examples. :devil: )

Farmersfan

01-27-2009, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
I've been wondering about this for awhile. You see many times a media outlet filing a FOI in order to get a list of applicants for a HC/AD position. Why don't you ever see the same filed in order to find out the applicants for the 3rd grade reading teacher or the 7th grade math teacher? Who is going to have the most impact on how well students are able to function in the "real" world? :thinking:

And on the other hand, why is a Superintendent "protected" under FOI, yet a coach is not? :thinking:

Based on current liberal mindsets in our school system I don't think it really matters. With "No Student Left Behind" policies we are taking our acheivers and slowing them down in order to allow the Non-Acheivers to keep up.
I am a firm believer that academics and athletics should be separated completely. I never understood the idea that if a student can't acheive in one area they are denied the other. Would we ever accept the idea that if a student can't play football then they are ruled ineligible for MATH?????? Why would we accept the other way around? Sometimes athletics is the only area a student can excel and to deny that is to deny his only acheivement during his most important developmental years.
But to answer your question it is a little different with a coach because they don't have to follow a dictated curriculum. They are given complete anonymity in how they teach their athletes. Just my opinion.......

vet93

01-27-2009, 11:49 AM

Yes, We live in a society that places more value on our forms of entertainment than those things that truly matter in the end. I say this with a standpoint of self criticsm because I too enjoy "entertainment". If we (I) only put as much emphasis on others, relationships and things of lasting value our society would be so much better off...

Sometimes our society reminds of Ancient Rome before it was overthrown where the decadence of the society eventually led to its downfall. They exchanged much that was good in their society for the pusuit of pleasure (power, greed, orgies, immorality, the "games")...sounds familiar!

cshscougar08

01-27-2009, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I am a firm believer that academics and athletics should be separated completely. I never understood the idea that if a student can't acheive in one area they are denied the other. Would we ever accept the idea that if a student can't play football then they are ruled ineligible for MATH?????? Why would we accept the other way around? Sometimes athletics is the only area a student can excel and to deny that is to deny his only acheivement during his most important developmental years.

Interesting. Here is my response to that. Playing sports is not a God-given right in high school. It's a privilege. And there is a reason why you are called a STUDENT-athlete. You don't go to high school for sports. You go to high school because you have to in order to get an education. THEN you get the option of playing sports as an extra-curricular activity to represent your school. Like I said, you are a student first so if you don't take care of business in the classroom, that privilege of playing is taken away. And rightfully so. This is showing that we DO have our priorities right in the sense of how important athletics are in high school.

I understand what you're saying about why take away the only area a person can excel in, but you have to remember. School is MANDATORY at the high school level. That comes first and anything else you do is simply icing on the cake. Just my two cents.

I. B. Watching

01-27-2009, 11:52 AM

Only if we are winning

vet93

01-27-2009, 12:06 PM

I disagree...High School Athletics were never designed to be a pursuit in themselves. They were designed to augment education by giving an outlet for physical fitness, competition and to teach the good character traits that can be learned during competition. It is our society and overemphasis on athletics that has turned this pursuit into something that we now feel should be seperated....afterall, why would we want a good education to get in the way of a "scholarship" to pursue ones education in college (doesn't that sound a little weird). I understand your point about athletics being the only thing that is positive in these kids lives...but in essence that mentality further pushes us towards manufacturing witless, uneducated gladiators that when they reach the ultimate goal of their sport they respond like a Pacman Jones, TO or Dennis Rodman. And then....when we (our society) are through with them and they have lived past their usefullenss on the playing field...we tear them down and discard them like an old newspaper. Some are able to move on and become productive citizens...but many...even most....live the rest of their lives trying to catch a little of that old glory...and wish that they had paid more attention to their "education" and passing that reading test that they once saw as only a nuisance in pursuit of their athletic career.

Originally posted by Farmersfan
Based on current liberal mindsets in our school system I don't think it really matters. With "No Student Left Behind" policies we are taking our acheivers and slowing them down in order to allow the Non-Acheivers to keep up.
I am a firm believer that academics and athletics should be separated completely. I never understood the idea that if a student can't acheive in one area they are denied the other. Would we ever accept the idea that if a student can't play football then they are ruled ineligible for MATH?????? Why would we accept the other way around? Sometimes athletics is the only area a student can excel and to deny that is to deny his only acheivement during his most important developmental years.
But to answer your question it is a little different with a coach because they don't have to follow a dictated curriculum. They are given complete anonymity in how they teach their athletes. Just my opinion.......

cshscougar08

01-27-2009, 12:15 PM

Vet, I totally agree with your post. I was trying to say something along those lines, but couldn't quite put it in those words.

:iagree:

Daddy D 11

01-27-2009, 12:21 PM

I was talking about this just the other day with my parents. I think society definitely puts too much emphasis on Sports. I have witnessed even the greatest of men/fathers yell at their kids after a poor sports performance, ages ranging from 6-18. It's dumb. A parents loves his kid, yet after he goes 0-3 at the plate, he's going to yell at him and make the kid think he loves him less and/or not think as highly of his kid as he did before. Whether or not a kid does good in a sports game should not dictate the type of relationship a kid has with his parents and should not make a kid feel like he failed when all he did was play the GAME that they wanted to. Parents take way too much pride in whether their kid is the All-Star or not instead of just raising their daughter or son to be a respectable, polite and smart kid that knows how to make good decisions. I'm not saying parents that yell at their kids after sporting games don't do that, but I'm just saying that you don't hear of kids getting yelled at by their parents because they slacked off in all their classes and didn't make good grades. By yelling at their kids after games, you're almost telling your kid that you value sports more than his education, morals and values.

Now all the above is obviously from someone that is not a parent yet and has no idea how hard it is to raise a kid, but that's just my worthless 2 cents.

Luckily, my Parents NEVER did that growing up. When i was 8, I cried after striking out and my dad took me outta the dugout and told me that we do not cry in sports because it's not that important and that I need to play the game the right way. Never again did I ever do anything of that sort again.

cshscougar08

01-27-2009, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Daddy D 11
I'm just saying that you don't hear of kids getting yelled at by their parents because they slacked off in all their classes and didn't make good grades.

Well my parents never YELLED at me, but they did give me some stern talking to's. Lol.

Txbroadcaster

01-27-2009, 12:28 PM

Of course we put to much emphasis on sports

Look at how we treat people who could not win the big game or were draft busts.

We have basically transformed into a society that judges a person life on a 5-10 year pro career..If they were succesful then we think of them that way, if they were not, we call them dogs, losers and so on.

OldBison75

01-27-2009, 12:31 PM

The big question in all of this is why are we even at the point of making athletics a "pedestal" in the high school setting? I submit that our society has decided that it is okay to just get by and we don't expect our children to excel in the classroom. We are happy to have a C or D student that earns his or her greatness in the athletic arena. These kids then are plunged into a college atmosphere that requires some academic standards and find they have no reading, comprehension, or study skills to fall back on. They become failures at college and then are outcasts to the american free market system. Many want to live in the glory and find that now that they are no longer the heroes on Friday, they are not needed. This is another spot where the breakdown of family values has been eroded. Parents used to demad that thier children attended school, did homework, and made respectable grades. When I was in school failing was below 70. Now that standard has been dropped to 60. We accept mediocrity.

An offshoot to this problem is the original question. Coaches want to move to bigger and better jobs, but maintain the security of knowing they already have a job if it dosen't work out. Therefore they want to apply without the media knowing. They have no problem telling a kids friends and family that the kid faileda class or has another disciplinary problem, but they want to only be in the positive spotlight to protect a job. If your man enough to want to get ahead by applying for another job, be man enough to tell your employer that you are interested in that job and don't be afraid to tell the world that you want to look at other options.

Daddy D 11

01-27-2009, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by cshscougar08
Well my parents never YELLED at me, but they did give me some stern talking to's. Lol.
Well yeah, mine never yelled either, But I got some stern talks too. I have a feeling though that most kids never get talks at all about their grades.

cshscougar08

01-27-2009, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Daddy D 11
Well yeah, mine never yelled either, But I got some stern talks too. I have a feeling though that most kids never get talks at all about their grades.

Yeah I agree. I always felt like I was in the way minority because of that.

pirate4state

01-27-2009, 12:36 PM

yes

Macarthur

01-27-2009, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by vet93
I disagree...High School Athletics were never designed to be a pursuit in themselves. They were designed to augment education by giving an outlet for physical fitness, competition and to teach the good character traits that can be learned during competition. It is our society and overemphasis on athletics that has turned this pursuit into something that we now feel should be seperated....afterall, why would we want a good education to get in the way of a "scholarship" to pursue ones education in college (doesn't that sound a little weird). I understand your point about athletics being the only thing that is positive in these kids lives...but in essence that mentality further pushes us towards manufacturing witless, uneducated gladiators that when they reach the ultimate goal of their sport they respond like a Pacman Jones, TO or Dennis Rodman. And then....when we (our society) are through with them and they have lived past their usefullenss on the playing field...we tear them down and discard them like an old newspaper. Some are able to move on and become productive citizens...but many...even most....live the rest of their lives trying to catch a little of that old glory...and wish that they had paid more attention to their "education" and passing that reading test that they once saw as only a nuisance in pursuit of their athletic career.

Good post.

Farmersfan quote:

Based on current liberal mindsets in our school system I don't think it really matters. With "No Student Left Behind" policies we are taking our acheivers and slowing them down in order to allow the Non-Acheivers to keep up.

Had to take a little political swipe, huh? ;) Nevermind the fact that "No Child Left Behind" is a program established and championed by the bastion of conservatism, George W. Bush.

The answer is, yes, we have put too much emphasis. And I think it's a realitively new thing. Sports has always been a part of our culture, but the education aspect was far more important. That has changed.

These athletic budgets have become very bloated. Resources have become scarce and we have bolstered our athletic programs at the cost of other programs within the curriculum. Music and arts are being cut, as well as some core curriculum. Granted, some athletic expenditures are being funded by boosters, but that just further eximplifies the paradox. Evereyone is adamant about their taxes staying low while giving the mixed message of maintaining the excesses of the football program.

I gew up loving it; I still do. I played it and it was a huge part of educational process, but yes, our priorities are out of whack.

Txbroadcaster

01-27-2009, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Macarthur
.

The answer is, yes, we have put too much emphasis. And I think it's a realitively new thing. Sports has always been a part of our culture, but the education aspect was far more important. That has changed.

.

I disagree to an extent...I think HS sports were just as big "back in the day"

Read the book on the Mighty Mites, the crowds they had back then for games far exceed the attendance we have now

Also education aspect became more important with no pass no play and that is still a relativley new thing

I stand by the addage not much has changed accept the access we fans have now because of the media and so many media outlets( and message boards like this). We talk up ad nausem tings like Chris Parr because we all know about it as soon as it happens when in the past that would not have been known to as many people outside that area.

We just now have almost a 24/7 views of the sports programs and we are quick to judge and sentence anyone we think is wrong.

crzyjournalist03

01-27-2009, 12:49 PM

The Romans built the Colosseum and forced people to either be very athletic or be eaten alive by a lion.

I think they put too much emphasis on athletics! :D

And in comparison, I'd say America is doing alright!

pirate4state

01-27-2009, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Macarthur

These athletic budgets have become very bloated. Resources have become scarce and we have bolstered our athletic programs at the cost of other programs within the curriculum. Music and arts are being cut, as well as some core curriculum. Granted, some athletic expenditures are being funded by boosters, but that just further eximplifies the paradox. Evereyone is adamant about their taxes staying low while giving the mixed message of maintaining the excesses of the football program.

Not all athletic budgets are bloated. Hell, ours has been frozen since the late 80s. I understand where you are coming from though. Good post.

vet93

01-27-2009, 01:08 PM

The Romans did not start out feeding people to lions...they started out with contests that were much more mundane...but as crowds grew and the need for more "entertaining" pursuits were called for...the Colosseum became bloodier and bloodier...

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
The Romans built the Colosseum and forced people to either be very athletic or be eaten alive by a lion.

I think they put too much emphasis on athletics! :D

And in comparison, I'd say America is doing alright!

Bone Pile

01-27-2009, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Daddy D 11
I was talking about this just the other day with my parents. I think society definitely puts too much emphasis on Sports. I have witnessed even the greatest of men/fathers yell at their kids after a poor sports performance, ages ranging from 6-18. It's dumb. A parents loves his kid, yet after he goes 0-3 at the plate, he's going to yell at him and make the kid think he loves him less and/or not think as highly of his kid as he did before. Whether or not a kid does good in a sports game should not dictate the type of relationship a kid has with his parents and should not make a kid feel like he failed when all he did was play the GAME that they wanted to. Parents take way too much pride in whether their kid is the All-Star or not instead of just raising their daughter or son to be a respectable, polite and smart kid that knows how to make good decisions. I'm not saying parents that yell at their kids after sporting games don't do that, but I'm just saying that you don't hear of kids getting yelled at by their parents because they slacked off in all their classes and didn't make good grades. By yelling at their kids after games, you're almost telling your kid that you value sports more than his education, morals and values.

Now all the above is obviously from someone that is not a parent yet and has no idea how hard it is to raise a kid, but that's just my worthless 2 cents.

Luckily, my Parents NEVER did that growing up. When i was 8, I cried after striking out and my dad took me outta the dugout and told me that we do not cry in sports because it's not that important and that I need to play the game the right way. Never again did I ever do anything of that sort again.

You are on the right track. Teach your kids respect and in turn show them respect. No way will they respect you without you showing respect for them. Sometimes the moms and dads live their fantasy through their kids. Yes my kids do get yelled at for bad grades. They do not get yelled at for striking out 3 times. I often wonder,who will know the difference or even care next year. There are some parents that need to be yelled at and taught that it hurts your childrens feelings and it also embarrasses them when that happens. Sometimes they just don't think about tjhe consequences.

cookiemonster

01-27-2009, 02:03 PM

One of the big issues I see is that what used to be summer league and fun is now a business and an investment by parents. The parents are paying all this money to guys that are guaranteeing scholarships and their is no accountability if these scholarships are not obtained. These guys are preying on kids and parents dreams and getting rich doing it. We have 2 summer baseball coaches that are paid 50,000 plus a new house to coach the summer league teams. While the HS Coach has a degree and doesn't make close to that.

This is also where most of the specialization of sports comes from. These guys have figured out that if they can talk these kids into playing their sport year round they also get paid year round. So these jobs have gone from 5,000$ and something they do for three months on the side to quitting their jobs and doing it all year.

IMO this is ruining HS Athletics

BwdLions

01-27-2009, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by cshscougar08
Well my parents never YELLED at me, but they did give me some stern talking to's. Lol.

Surely they yelled at you when you told them you were going to ou. :p

cshscougar08

01-27-2009, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by BwdLions
Surely they yelled at you when you told them you were going to ou. :p

Lol. No, but they did make it clear that Texas and UNC weren't options.

Macarthur

01-27-2009, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I disagree to an extent...I think HS sports were just as big "back in the day"

Read the book on the Mighty Mites, the crowds they had back then for games far exceed the attendance we have now

Don't get me wrong. I know sports has always been big, especially football in Texas.

Also education aspect became more important with no pass no play and that is still a relativley new thing

This is more my point. I don't think 30 or 40 years ago, this was even needed. Schools and parents kicked kids butts to make thier grades regardless of their extracurricular activites.

I stand by the addage not much has changed accept the access we fans have now because of the media and so many media outlets( and message boards like this). We talk up ad nausem tings like Chris Parr because we all know about it as soon as it happens when in the past that would not have been known to as many people outside that area.

We just now have almost a 24/7 views of the sports programs and we are quick to judge and sentence anyone we think is wrong.

I agree with what you are saying here mostly. However, I do think the tone and approach of these sports has changed recently.

Txbroadcaster

01-27-2009, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Macarthur

This is more my point. I don't think 30 or 40 years ago, this was even needed. Schools and parents kicked kids butts to make thier grades regardless of their extracurricular activites.

.

ehhh maybe..But there were also a TON of schools wo played MEN out of HS back then just to win

Farmersfan

01-27-2009, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by vet93
I disagree...High School Athletics were never designed to be a pursuit in themselves. They were designed to augment education by giving an outlet for physical fitness, competition and to teach the good character traits that can be learned during competition. It is our society and overemphasis on athletics that has turned this pursuit into something that we now feel should be seperated....afterall, why would we want a good education to get in the way of a "scholarship" to pursue ones education in college (doesn't that sound a little weird). I understand your point about athletics being the only thing that is positive in these kids lives...but in essence that mentality further pushes us towards manufacturing witless, uneducated gladiators that when they reach the ultimate goal of their sport they respond like a Pacman Jones, TO or Dennis Rodman. And then....when we (our society) are through with them and they have lived past their usefullenss on the playing field...we tear them down and discard them like an old newspaper. Some are able to move on and become productive citizens...but many...even most....live the rest of their lives trying to catch a little of that old glory...and wish that they had paid more attention to their "education" and passing that reading test that they once saw as only a nuisance in pursuit of their athletic career.

Oh! I see your point: Thank goodness we don't have TOs, Pac-Mans and Dennis Rodmans now..........(sarcasm)
So you are ok with "witless, uneducated non-gladiators"????? The very same students we are talking about are going to go out into the world with or without the athletics that we decided they didn't deserve to play because they can't pass math. I never said we should allow the students to FAIL! I am saying that the over-emphasis on PASS is bringing the entire educational system to it's knees. I would rather the kids work at a really good education and graduate with a 50 average than to get a dummied down education and graduate with a 100% average. We have some really ignorant people in this world with high school or college degrees.. The grades don't make the man(or woman). It's the drive to compete that will carry them....

LH Panther Mom

01-27-2009, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Lion_Addict
Ohhhhhh Mom.........way early to make my brain hurt like this :doh:
Even for as early in the morning as it was, you "got it". ;)

Farmersfan

01-27-2009, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Daddy D 11
I was talking about this just the other day with my parents. I think society definitely puts too much emphasis on Sports. I have witnessed even the greatest of men/fathers yell at their kids after a poor sports performance, ages ranging from 6-18. It's dumb. A parents loves his kid, yet after he goes 0-3 at the plate, he's going to yell at him and make the kid think he loves him less and/or not think as highly of his kid as he did before. Whether or not a kid does good in a sports game should not dictate the type of relationship a kid has with his parents and should not make a kid feel like he failed when all he did was play the GAME that they wanted to. Parents take way too much pride in whether their kid is the All-Star or not instead of just raising their daughter or son to be a respectable, polite and smart kid that knows how to make good decisions. I'm not saying parents that yell at their kids after sporting games don't do that, but I'm just saying that you don't hear of kids getting yelled at by their parents because they slacked off in all their classes and didn't make good grades. By yelling at their kids after games, you're almost telling your kid that you value sports more than his education, morals and values.

Now all the above is obviously from someone that is not a parent yet and has no idea how hard it is to raise a kid, but that's just my worthless 2 cents.

Luckily, my Parents NEVER did that growing up. When i was 8, I cried after striking out and my dad took me outta the dugout and told me that we do not cry in sports because it's not that important and that I need to play the game the right way. Never again did I ever do anything of that sort again.

All in all a very good post. But I differ in one point. Athletics is an immediate results oriented task which brings emotions out on the spot. Academic grades are measured in 6 week intervals. But most parents are actually more adament about grades than they are about athletic performance. I know we are as a society because as the post states......We will banned our loved ones from sports because of grades but laugh in contempt at the idea of banning them from school for bad athletic performances. Think about it a minute! We give athletics such menial importance that we will take it completely away from a high school athlete and really hurt the entire team because of as little as a 1 point swing in his grades in a completely different subject.

Farmersfan

01-27-2009, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by vet93
The Romans did not start out feeding people to lions...they started out with contests that were much more mundane...but as crowds grew and the need for more "entertaining" pursuits were called for...the Colosseum became bloodier and bloodier...

Kind of like UFC?????

Budman007

01-27-2009, 04:24 PM

When I served on a local school board several years ago (not Bridgeport), I was told right off the bat that the only person we as a board were responsible for hiring and firing was the Supt., yet we interviewed both the Supt. finalists and the Head Football Coach/AD finalists. We never interviewed the Science Coordinator, Technology Coordinator, Curriculum Director, Choir Director, etc.

bandera7

01-27-2009, 05:02 PM

Alright this might not be all that popular of an opinion. But here is mine.

I can honestly say that I am applying athletics to my life right now far more than I am the rest of my schooling combined. Athletics taught me so many important lessons, things like fighting adversity, perseverance, teamwork, and working towards a personal goal, that I dont know I would have learned if not for athletics. These things are very important have played a large role in developing the kind of person I am.

However, as far as putting too much of an emphasis on success. I know this sounds a little pansy-ish. But the truth is athletics was for more about the will to win than it was about winning. It was about putting yourself out there 110% and dedicating everything you have toward the goal you and your team had, and not so much about actually coming away with the win. The fact that so many young men had come together for a common goal was in itself what athletics was about, I always thought. The problem is not the emphasis on athletics, it was the emphasis on winning being the only thing acceptable. Sure, you can say that before the result, so that everybody works harder. But at the end of the day, what was important was that everybody gave everything they had.

Thats just where I stand.

BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END

01-27-2009, 07:45 PM

LH Panther Mom

01-27-2009, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by OldBison75
An offshoot to this problem is the original question.
The original question was actually vague, and intentionally so. ;)

vet93

01-27-2009, 08:13 PM

Very good post Bandera7...I don't think that anyone would want to argue the point including myself. I greatly benefitted from my experience in playing football. The original post asked the question of over-emphasis within our society and most have answered yes. The benefits regarding high school athletics for the most part far outway the negatives.

Originally posted by bandera7
Alright this might not be all that popular of an opinion. But here is mine.

I can honestly say that I am applying athletics to my life right now far more than I am the rest of my schooling combined. Athletics taught me so many important lessons, things like fighting adversity, perseverance, teamwork, and working towards a personal goal, that I dont know I would have learned if not for athletics. These things are very important have played a large role in developing the kind of person I am.

However, as far as putting too much of an emphasis on success. I know this sounds a little pansy-ish. But the truth is athletics was for more about the will to win than it was about winning. It was about putting yourself out there 110% and dedicating everything you have toward the goal you and your team had, and not so much about actually coming away with the win. The fact that so many young men had come together for a common goal was in itself what athletics was about, I always thought. The problem is not the emphasis on athletics, it was the emphasis on winning being the only thing acceptable. Sure, you can say that before the result, so that everybody works harder. But at the end of the day, what was important was that everybody gave everything they had.

Thats just where I stand.

SintonFan

01-27-2009, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by OldBison75
The big question in all of this is why are we even at the point of making athletics a "pedestal" in the high school setting? I submit that our society has decided that it is okay to just get by and we don't expect our children to excel in the classroom. We are happy to have a C or D student that earns his or her greatness in the athletic arena. These kids then are plunged into a college atmosphere that requires some academic standards and find they have no reading, comprehension, or study skills to fall back on. They become failures at college and then are outcasts to the american free market system. Many want to live in the glory and find that now that they are no longer the heroes on Friday, they are not needed. This is another spot where the breakdown of family values has been eroded. Parents used to demad that thier children attended school, did homework, and made respectable grades. When I was in school failing was below 70. Now that standard has been dropped to 60. We accept mediocrity.

.
Some good points here.
I always cringe when questions are asked with the context of "us" as a society. I think that when we phrase questions with "us" as in society, we can occasionly more openly point the finger as to these wrongs without actually talking about the root causes. I have personally seen a parent at a middle school game yell obscenities at a kid who missed a tackle (it earned a stern look from me, but that was it, I probably should have said something).
We sometimes take away from our own personal responsibilities as parents when we phrase questions in the "society" context imho. We used to police "our own"(as parents) when raising kids... it just doesn't happen very often any more.
I think some of us have rejected these new ways to raise children and have started to further embrace old fashioned ways that are tried and true to insure our kids grow up to be successful(morally, spirtually and etc). It IS tough in today's climate but it is do-able.
My wife and I, for instance, don't allow TV during the week. We actually experienced a backlash from a couple of neighbors but they quickly shut themselves up when they saw the difference it made in our children. Now others are asking are secret. I laugh and tell them just go back to how you were raised, it really isn't very hard at all.
I think if more parents resolved themselves to do what is right for their children then our "society's" ills would take care of itself. Trust me, I know. I was the bad man in my kids' eyes for all of a month or two but today they thank me. They have excelled.
My motto for my kids last year(after TV was taken away) was: "Self esteem is over-rated, Self-confidence is earned!"
That applies to their studies first and athletics last, but to everything in general.

Txbroadcaster

01-27-2009, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
Some good points here.
I always cringe when questions are asked with the context of "us" as a society. I think that when we phrase questions with "us" as in society, we can occasionly more openly point the finger as to these wrongs without actually talking about the root causes. I have personally seen a parent at a middle school game yell obscenities at a kid who missed a tackle (it earned a stern look from me, but that was it, I probably should have said something).
We sometimes take away from our own personal responsibilities as parents when we phrase questions in the "society" context imho. We used to police "our own"(as parents) when raising kids... it just doesn't happen very often any more.
I think some of us have rejected these new ways to raise children and have started to further embrace old fashioned ways that are tried and true to insure our kids grow up to be successful(morally, spirtually and etc). It IS tough in today's climate but it is do-able.
My wife and I, for instance, don't allow TV during the week. We actually experienced a backlash from a couple of neighbors but they quickly shut themselves up when they saw the difference it made in our children. Now others are asking are secret. I laugh and tell them just go back to how you were raised, it really isn't very hard at all.
I think if more parents resolved themselves to do what is right for their children then our "society's" ills would take care of itself. Trust me, I know. I was the bad man in my kids' eyes for all of a month or two but today they thank me. They have excelled.
My motto for my kids last year(after TV was taken away) was: "Self esteem is over-rated, Self-confidence is earned!"
That applies to their studies first and athletics last, but to everything in general.

I also think we have created this belief that in the "old days" things are always better, that every parent was amazing and every kid was the perfect kid.

The problems today are unique in their time, but that does not mean everyting from te past was perfect

I dont know if it is because of ow families were potrayed in on tv and movies in the 1950's or what but this perception that everything was so much better then imo gets overplayed

The big difference is women were not as apt to leave a bad marriage, minorities and their problems were basically relegated to te unknown because no one cared. but the drug abuse, bad kids and bad parents all were there then as well, it just was not harped on as it is today.

Teenagers having kids is one example..you would think it there is an explosion since the 80's of kids having kids, but the facts are, the mumbers ave basically remained the same, and even declined from the 50's

Difference is back then the teen mother would "disapear" from the public while today most will continue teir schooling

SintonFan

01-27-2009, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I also think we have created this belief that in the "old days" things are always better, that every parent was amazing and every kid was the perfect kid.

The problems today are unique in their time, but that does not mean everyting from te past was perfect

I dont know if it is because of ow families were potrayed in on tv and movies in the 1950's or what but this perception that everything was so much better then imo gets overplayed

The big difference is women were not as apt to leave a bad marriage, minorities and their problems were basically relegated to te unknown because no one cared. but the drug abuse, bad kids and bad parents all were there then as well, it just was not harped on as it is today.

Teenagers having kids is one example..you would think it there is an explosion since the 80's of kids having kids, but the facts are, the mumbers ave basically remained the same, and even declined from the 50's

Difference is back then the teen mother would "disapear" from the public while today most will continue teir schooling
.
That's a big leap from me mentioning going back to old-fashioned roots for my kids to saying the past is or was perfect.
I think about my Grand-father's (and my Dad's) generation and wonder how they had such moral and intelligent clarity. It is hard to ignore the fact that they never had TV, but nurtured their minds through reading, hard study and visual radio. They also had curriculum that was much more critical thinking based(but also had more required to learn in general). OldBison75 mentioned how standards for grades were higher. These and other factors contributed to what we now know as "The Greatest Generation".
That is a far cry from what we now experience today. Parents and Grand-Parents know inherently that many things are amiss today, including adoration and too much emphasis of HS sport and athletics.
My point was, we as parents, need to do what ever it takes to insure our kids actually GROW UP. But without all the decadent, selfish, sexualized influences found on ALL aspects of television.
TV is over-rated. Some parents can't identify the fact that what they are watching (with matured minds) will extremely influence their young children or teens(with very impressionable minds).
So from this many of us watch ESPN and see extreme success, some might expect the same from our children. I'll gather that maturity is at a premium from those that do the latter. I'll also expect that most of us in Texas don't follow under that.
I love Texas High School Football. It really is the purest form of the sport.

Txbroadcaster

01-27-2009, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
That's a big leap from me mentioning going back to old-fashioned roots for my kids to saying the past is or was perfect.
I think about my Grand-father's (and my Dad's) generation and wonder how they had such moral and intelligent clarity. It is hard to ignore the fact that they never had TV, but nurtured their minds through reading, hard study and visual radio. They also had curriculum that was much more critical thinking based(but also had more required to learn in general). OldBison75 mentioned how standards for grades were higher. These and other factors contributed to what we now know as "The Greatest Generation".
That is a far cry from what we now experience today. Parents and Grand-Parents know inherently that many things are amiss today, including adoration and too much emphasis of HS sport and athletics.
My point was, we as parents, need to do what ever it takes to insure our kids actually GROW UP. But without all the decadent, selfish, sexualized influences found on ALL aspects of television.
TV is over-rated. Some parents can't identify the fact that what they are watching (with matured minds) will extremely influence their young children or teens(with very impressionable minds).
So from this many of us watch ESPN and see extreme success, some might expect the same from our children. I'll gather that maturity is at a premium from those that do the latter. I'll also expect that most of us in Texas don't follow under that.
I love Texas High School Football. It really is the purest form of the sport.

I did not mean to insuate you thought the past was perfect, I was just using your comments to bridge to the idea that people think things in the past were better imo simply because they have simply recreated in their mind all the good things and forgotten the problems of that era as well

SintonFan

01-27-2009, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I did not mean to insuate you thought the past was perfect, I was just using your comments to bridge to the idea that people think things in the past were better imo simply because they have simply recreated in their mind all the good things and forgotten the problems of that era as well
.
I believe many of us know that problems from past eras were real and created inequity and injustice or worse. We, as Texans, tend to learn from the bad and take the good (I hope). I do further believe that that many of us should embrace the positive points of our elders and learn from their mistakes.
Sadly, since there was injustice and inequity or worse(during past eras), many do discount everything from our forefathers.
Others here have mentioned that our past has examples of present day problems, it shows an inability of many to not learn from our problems. I have seen this personally and regret not confronting when I should have spoken out.

vet93

01-28-2009, 11:35 AM

In regards to teenage pregnancy rates...you cannot compare anything from the fifties (or pre-Roe v. Wade) because until that time abortion on demand was not available and in many cases contraceptives were much less readily available. If you add all of the babies aborted now to the teenage pregnancy rate...you will likely get a far different number.

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I also think we have created this belief that in the "old days" things are always better, that every parent was amazing and every kid was the perfect kid.

The problems today are unique in their time, but that does not mean everyting from te past was perfect

I dont know if it is because of ow families were potrayed in on tv and movies in the 1950's or what but this perception that everything was so much better then imo gets overplayed

The big difference is women were not as apt to leave a bad marriage, minorities and their problems were basically relegated to te unknown because no one cared. but the drug abuse, bad kids and bad parents all were there then as well, it just was not harped on as it is today.

Teenagers having kids is one example..you would think it there is an explosion since the 80's of kids having kids, but the facts are, the mumbers ave basically remained the same, and even declined from the 50's

Difference is back then the teen mother would "disapear" from the public while today most will continue teir schooling

Aesculus gilmus

01-29-2009, 08:14 AM

The United States as a nation-state became, in practical terms, an empire at the end of World War II.

Militarism (aka as the so-called "military-industrial complex"-a term coined by President Dwight D. Eisenhower in his Farewell Address) and worship thereof became the preeminent part of American culture and society.

Sports, particularly the violent ones such as football, can be seen then as a very important activity, more important than academics. It trains the youth to think in violent terms rather than use their minds. Video games (I've read, as I don't play them) also teach violence over intellect.

Nothing happens by accident. The U.S. is a gladiatorial quasi-empire, which is now going bankrupt due to poor choices of trying the expand the empire in recent years. Its leaders overreached, and now comes the inevitable downfall.