West Texas Wind Turbines

[Bullaholic]

Just watched a good story on "8 Country Reporter" about the positive impact on the West Texas economies that the wind turbines are having. The communities of Roscoe, Blackwell, Trent, and Sweetwater are experiencing a real economic boost because of the wind turbines in their areas. The Trent ISD Supt. said that they would not have their great new school and athletic facillities if it were not for the wind turbines. Looks like the future is brighter and hopeful for West Texas communties who are embracing the wind turbines.

[GreenMonster]

The most wonderful thing about the wind turbines is that they will never pull up and leave like the oil drillers. Energy prices will continue to rise so the value of these giant windmills will also continue to rise. I wish we had some up here in my part of the world.

[sinfan75]

The Windfarm just south of Sinton and Taft is just gettin started. They're getting the laydown yard completed and I guess will be starting on the road construction pretty soon.

[STANG RED]

It has been a huge economic boom around here, even in spite of the many fools we have in the city government and school board. Because of their lack of vision early on the city of Sweetwater lost out on millions that will never be recovered. But it finally got so much bigger than them, they finally had to succumb to it and let the progress just happen. Funny thing is, many of them are even trying to take credit for much of it now. Oh well, at least our economic future is on pretty steady ground now, in spite of those small minded morons that didn’t have the vision to see what was coming 7 to 8 years ago.

One of the first things T. Boone Pickens told the citizens of Pampa at his first town hall meeting there, about the coming of the many wind farms to that area was "Don’t be the next Sweetwater Texas". What this meant was, don’t get caught up in the greed to make so much money quickly, that it ends up costing you millions in the long run. I just hope Pampa and other cities will take a close look at the mistakes made by Sweetwater's city government and school board in the early days of all of this, and wont repeat those same short sighted mistakes.

Wind Power is still in its infancy for the most part. Over the next 20 or so years, you will be seeing millions of these things going up all over the world. It’s a great industry to be involved in, and a great way to make a very good living. I'm making about 3 times what I was just a couple of years ago, and I know of hundreds of others that are doing just as well or better. Heck, I know of some 20 year olds that are making $100K + per year, traveling all over the country servicing wind turbines. If I were a young man of that age, I sure as heck know what I'd be doing. Most college graduates wont be able to make anywhere near what these guys are making. And the longevity prospects within this industry are very long and very profitable. A bright young person, that isn’t afraid of hard work, and has his head screwed on straight, could get into this industry now, make a very good living now and in the future, and set themselves up to have a nice supervisory or management position in the not to distant future. A young man of 20 or so could easily set themselves up nicely to retire by 50, if they played their cards right.

TSTC Sweetwater offers a great class in wind turbine technology. As far as I know, everyone coming out of that class is being offered great jobs to step right into upon course completion. If I were an 18 year old HS graduate, I’d jump on this like white on rice.

[c-town_balla]

I just took a ski trip to Colorado and noticed quite as few right outside of either Dumas or Dalhart...I can't recall which one...that stuff has to be a boon for property taxes

[3afan]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Desert-Sky-Wind-Farm.jpg

[Emerson1]

What happened in Sweetwater?

[SWMustang]

sounds like the same crap that's been going on for years in Sweetwater. They seem to always shoot themselves in the foot when prosperity comes knocking. Old money is hesitant to open up the community for growth purposes.

[Trashman]

Same thing happend in Brown County. We had a chance at a wind farm and the ones that did not stand a chance to profit, killed it for those who did.:rolleyes:

[Rabid Cougar]

I have mixed feeling about those things. Aside for the tremendous economic impact that they are having for the area and the really cool technology of them... we get the housings, tower sections and the blades running down Highway 21.....
I hate to see the skylines of what is truely West Texas disappear pretty much forever. Kind of like the horney toad and the quail disappearing here in Central Texas....

[slingshot]

Call me a dinosaur... I hate'em--A blight on the landscape, a beauracratic boondoggle, a lobbiest's dream--"Let's just build thousands of'em out in the middle of nowhere with no transmission lines to the population centers then put pressure on the state to pay billions and billions (that's you and me folks) to put in the transmission lines that we won't have to pay for! Yeah that's it! We get laws passed forcing the utilities to buy our renewable energy at basically any price we want to charge and it gets carried over transmission lines that we don't have to pay for. We get filthy rich and look like saviors of the environment while doing it! This is great."
Sounds suspicously like the ethanol industry to me...

[shankbear]

My wife and I were driving in France and went through a windmill farm that went on solid for at least ten miles. Every one of the generating units were GE.

[sportzman44]

Originally posted by Trashman
Same thing happend in Brown County. We had a chance at a wind farm and the ones that did not stand a chance to profit, killed it for those who did.:rolleyes:


Are you one of those that may have profited? If so Iam sorry for your loss but I am eternaly grateful that I do not have to look at those unsightly wind turbines on Brown county 's skyline,I for one am a property owner in Brown county and mayhaps could have profited off of the turbines myself but the beauty of the land by far outweighs any profits I could have made off this venture.

[sportzman44]

If I lived in Dallas I may say the same thing.

[Old Green]

There's a documentary on TV right now called " Too Hot To Handle" showing the windmills in Sweetwater and interveiwing several Sweetwater residents.

[sinfan75]

Originally posted by sportzman44
Are you one of those that may have profited? If so Iam sorry for your loss but I am eternaly grateful that I do not have to look at those unsightly wind turbines on Brown county 's skyline,I for one am a property owner in Brown county and mayhaps could have profited off of the turbines myself but the beauty of the land by far outweighs any profits I could have made off this venture. Around Sinton it won't be any different than all the big power lines that are runnin through here. So I don't think it'll kill the landscape around here. From what I heard the windfarm will have only 6 permanent jobs so not much impact as far as jobs except for the construction phase. Now the pipe plant comin to this area will create a better impact

[Aesculus gilmus]

It's a good thing for you wind farmers that the socialists are taking over in D.C.

"Free market" forces of sub-$40-a-barrel oil and $4 per Mcf natural gas would be killing off all these "alternative energy" investments for the foreseeable future in a purely capitalistic environment.

I am still not convinced that the socialist "green economy" advocates can pull this off, but we're about to find out.

BTW, I take no sides on this. Capitalism has been found wanting and tens of millions are hurting in this country. So it's time to try alternatives, for sure. This is playing out just like the 1930s.

[bigfrank]

Originally posted by Rabid Cougar
I have mixed feeling about those things. Aside for the tremendous economic impact that they are having for the area and the really cool technology of them... we get the housings, tower sections and the blades running down Highway 21.....
I hate to see the skylines of what is truely West Texas disappear pretty much forever. Kind of like the horney toad and the quail disappearing here in Central Texas....

You are sadly mistaken. I work for the largest wind producer in the U.S. . That process you mentioned is nothing how it goes. Before we put wind turbines anywhere the first thing we establish is if we have transmission to get it to market. If it is a real good area and we dont have transmission we build the line our self and pay for it OUR SELF at the cost of a million a mile.
Secondly, we cannot charge whatever we want for the "green power". Texas is a deregulated market which means our power goes to the grid and sales for whatever market price is.
Wind power has brought millions of dollars to small communities and counties that love us and those are the areas we love to go.
We do not go in areas where we are not wanted. We want to have the support of the community and build a long lasting relationship.

[Trashman]

Originally posted by sportzman44
Are you one of those that may have profited? If so Iam sorry for your loss but I am eternaly grateful that I do not have to look at those unsightly wind turbines on Brown county 's skyline,I for one am a property owner in Brown county and mayhaps could have profited off of the turbines myself but the beauty of the land by far outweighs any profits I could have made off this venture.

No, I do not own enough land or any land in the area where the windmill farm was going to be.

[Trashman]

Originally posted by Old Green
There's a documentary on TV right now called " Too Hot To Handle" showing the windmills in Sweetwater and interveiwing several Sweetwater residents.

What network or channel?

[squid]

Trent ISD has built a new school and football stadium with their windfall. And I heard that they donated the $$$ for high speed internet for every school district in Region 14.

[turbostud]

There is a guy in Los Fresnos that has wind turbine in his yard to power his home. Also HEB just built a distribution center here in Weslaco and they have a turbine that looks similar to this only smaller.

http://www.worldproutassembly.org/maglev_wind_turbine.jpg

[IHStangFan]

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
I own a few hundred acres in the highest elevation point in the DFW area. Where can I get me some of those windmills? As long as it doesn't bother my cows, to hell with the skyline view. and you haven't invited me hunting yet?!?! DAMN ETB!!

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Aesculus gilmus
It's a good thing for you wind farmers that the socialists are taking over in D.C.

"Free market" forces of sub-$40-a-barrel oil and $4 per Mcf natural gas would be killing off all these "alternative energy" investments for the foreseeable future in a purely capitalistic environment.

I am still not convinced that the socialist "green economy" advocates can pull this off, but we're about to find out.

BTW, I take no sides on this. Capitalism has been found wanting and tens of millions are hurting in this country. So it's time to try alternatives, for sure. This is playing out just like the 1930s. how ya doing Joseph McCarthy? back from the dead wow! lmao:rolleyes:

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by turbostud
There is a guy in Los Fresnos that has wind turbine in his yard to power his home. Also HEB just built a distribution center here in Weslaco and they have a turbine that looks similar to this only smaller.

http://www.worldproutassembly.org/maglev_wind_turbine.jpg I believe the surplus energy is sold off to the energy co. at least I read that was how it worked. I think thermostats that tell you as you use them what you'll be paying at the end of the month is another sure fire way to save energy haha

[Old Green]

Originally posted by Trashman
What network or channel? It was on HBO. They were doing a documentary show about alternative energy sources.

[Trashman]

Originally posted by Old Green
It was on HBO. They were doing a documentary show about alternative energy sources.
Thanks:D

[dawg4life]

I think wind COULD be a good thing. The thing is, its not energy efficient. U know when they arnt rotating they have to use oil to run them.

If windmills are the answer, the free market would go to them, not having to have the government subsidize them to the point it would be stupid not to.

Also, I dont see gas going up as fast as some people do. We focused on such a gas efficient economy with hybrids and such, I bet we wont see a huge increaser in a year or so.

But I agree that we need to find an alternative. Gas WILL run out, and if it is $30 a barrel until it does, well the free market is gonna have a hard time to adjust.

What we should do is just have to government stay out of the economy as much as possible. Not as extreme as libertarians want, but to a good extent...Idk I guess thats my 2 or 3 cents.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by dawg4life
I think wind COULD be a good thing. The thing is, its not energy efficient. U know when they arnt rotating they have to use oil to run them.


Dont know where you got your bad info at, but it is sure enough bad. The only oil they use is the lubricants needed for bearings and the main gearbox. And they are extremely energy effecient. All it takes is wind blowing anywhere from 5 to 25 mph to make them work. One windmill, depending on its size, will generate enough electricity for 500 to 1500 average size homes.
Windpower alone isnt the total answer, but it is and will be a big part of solving our energy needs for many many years to come. And they are making huge strides in the technology of wind trubines constantly. Within 5 years, we will be seeing turbines that are capable of generating many times the amount of electricity than what these are today. In fact there are prototypes already in operation that are showing lots of promise. As soon as all the bugs are worked out, these will be being manufactured and put into operation in as little as 2 years or less.

[SintonFan_inAustin]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Dont know where you got your bad info at, but it is sure enough bad. The only oil they use is the lubricants needed for bearings and the main gearbox. And they are extremely energy effecient. All it takes is wind blowing anywhere from 5 to 25 mph to make them work. One windmill, depending on its size, will generate enough electricity for 500 to 1500 average size homes.
Windpower alone isnt the total answer, but it is and will be a big part of solving our energy needs for many many years to come. And they are making huge strides in the technology of wind trubines constantly. Within 5 years, we will be seeing turbines that are capable of generating many times the amount of electricity than what these are today. In fact there are prototypes already in operation that are showing lots of promise. As soon as all the bugs are worked out, these will be being manufactured and put into operation in as little as 2 years or less. http://www.technologyreview.com/files/21950/exro_x220.jpg
By operating efficiently over a wide range of wind speeds, a "new kind of generator" promises lower-cost wind turbines with higher power outputs — as much as 50% higher. Startup company ExRo Technologies eliminates the mechanical transmission of conventional wind turbines, opting for electronic controls instead. This change in design is said to render the system more responsive to high-speed winds, gusts, and lulls. Individual coils, arranged in a multiple-stack configuration, are activated electronically. Activating a few coils harvests energy at low wind speeds; more coils can be activated during higher wind events.

[dawg4life]

Im just saying, they can throw out all these stats, but do u remember any windmills before the government started subsidizing them? Its because they weren't energy efficient. If they did all these things u claim the free market would have gone this way. Thats empirically proven, no arguing with that.

[slingshot]

Originally posted by bigfrank
You are sadly mistaken. I work for the largest wind producer in the U.S. . That process you mentioned is nothing how it goes. Before we put wind turbines anywhere the first thing we establish is if we have transmission to get it to market. If it is a real good area and we dont have transmission we build the line our self and pay for it OUR SELF at the cost of a million a mile.
Secondly, we cannot charge whatever we want for the "green power". Texas is a deregulated market which means our power goes to the grid and sales for whatever market price is.
Wind power has brought millions of dollars to small communities and counties that love us and those are the areas we love to go.
We do not go in areas where we are not wanted. We want to have the support of the community and build a long lasting relationship. Wrong. Sounds like you actually believe the propaganda the company spokespeople are feeding you... if this is true and you only build where you have transmission lines why are we the taxpayers/utility customers beeing asked to foot the bill for a $7 Billion Dollar trasmission line system for the wind fams to the population centers in the form of a monthly utility bill surcharge? They don't want to call it a tax (which is what it is) to put money directly into the pockets of T. Boone Pickens, Florida Power and Light, et al... Wake up folks.

[mustang68]

Originally posted by slingshot
Wrong. Sounds like you actually believe the propaganda the company spokespeople are feeding you... if this is true and you only build where you have transmission lines why are we the taxpayers/utility customers beeing asked to foot the bill for a $7 Billion Dollar trasmission line system for the wind fams to the population centers in the form of a monthly utility bill surcharge? They don't want to call it a tax (which is what it is) to put money directly into the pockets of T. Boone Pickens, Florida Power and Light, et al... Wake up folks.

You Sir, need to do your homework. Texas is growing and has been woefully underserved by transmission lines for years, not to mention the need to connect the panhandle grid to the rest of the grid in Texas. This upgrading of the transmission lines has been on the drawing boards for many years. These major transmission lines are not being built at or for the discretion of the wind farms.
How do you feel about the interstate highway system?

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by slingshot
Wrong. Sounds like you actually believe the propaganda the company spokespeople are feeding you... if this is true and you only build where you have transmission lines why are we the taxpayers/utility customers beeing asked to foot the bill for a $7 Billion Dollar trasmission line system for the wind fams to the population centers in the form of a monthly utility bill surcharge? They don't want to call it a tax (which is what it is) to put money directly into the pockets of T. Boone Pickens, Florida Power and Light, et al... Wake up folks.



Gas companies have been passing the cost of production to the consumer for 100 years. who do you think paid for the transmission lines that are in place now? What's the issue with this? Are you claiming the Wind Turbine company should be required to simply eat the cost of the transmission lines?

[Farmersfan]

I am planning on building a home in the near future and am seriously considering a wind turbine to power it. I think the only drawback for domestic use is the lack of a good storage capability. Battery technology isn't keeping up with the times. A combination of wind and solar could make a home completely independant of outside energy if a decent battery/storage system was available. That way you wouldn't need a 50' turbine at a cost of 100K............A normal single family windmill could be used to suppliment the solar panels. Anyone have any insight into new technology in batteries?

[mustang68]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
I am planning on building a home in the near future and am seriously considering a wind turbine to power it. I think the only drawback for domestic use is the lack of a good storage capability. Battery technology isn't keeping up with the times. A combination of wind and solar could make a home completely independant of outside energy if a decent battery/storage system was available. That way you wouldn't need a 50' turbine at a cost of 100K............A normal single family windmill could be used to suppliment the solar panels. Anyone have any insight into new technology in batteries?

Unless you are not near transmission lines, it is much more economical to connect to the grid and sell them your excess energy when producing and use the grid for your storage when needed. You are right, until the long term storage of electricity/energy is economically addressed, being totally self suficient will be difficult the costly.

[bigfrank]

Originally posted by slingshot
Wrong. Sounds like you actually believe the propaganda the company spokespeople are feeding you... if this is true and you only build where you have transmission lines why are we the taxpayers/utility customers beeing asked to foot the bill for a $7 Billion Dollar trasmission line system for the wind fams to the population centers in the form of a monthly utility bill surcharge? They don't want to call it a tax (which is what it is) to put money directly into the pockets of T. Boone Pickens, Florida Power and Light, et al... Wake up folks.

To answer your question. We are not building anymore wind farms in Texas at this point because the majority of the transmission lines in west texas and the pandhandle are full. We have moved to Ok and the midwest until Texas builds more lines.
The CREZ line has been in the pipe work for years. The state is doing this so we can build more wind farms and decrease our dependency on fossil fuels. Obviously, you need to wake up and do your homework. Do you want America to keep relying on terrorist to provide us with energy resources?

[Bulligator]

Originally posted by squid
Trent ISD has built a new school and football stadium with their windfall. And I heard that they donated the $$$ for high speed internet for every school district in Region 14.

Did this windfall come in the form of increased property tax revenue, or did Trent own the land the wind farms were placed on? What is the source of all this income you are speaking of?

How do the wind farms profit the communties they are located in other than the landowners receiving royalties? And possibly a few jobs that may be created?

Not being critical of anything, just looking for the income source.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by bigfrank
To answer your question. We are not building anymore wind farms in Texas at this point because the majority of the transmission lines in west texas and the pandhandle are full. We have moved to Ok and the midwest until Texas builds more lines.
The CREZ line has been in the pipe work for years. The state is doing this so we can build more wind farms and decrease our dependency on fossil fuels. Obviously, you need to wake up and do your homework. Do you want America to keep relying on terrorist to provide us with energy resources?

You are mostly correct but not entirely accurate. Yes we are seeing lots more wind farms being built outside of Texas now, but I know of many projects still in the pipeline to be built in Texas, and know of several that are being built right now, and several more that will be starting up within the next couple of months. The biggest reason for the slowdown the past few months has more to do with financing than anything. But it is true that we are filling these transmission lines to capacity, and will need to build more very soon. People should also know, these transmission lines need to be built anyway. As our population grows and spreads out even more, there is more and more need for electricity in more and more areas. No matter how the electricity is being generated, more transmission lines are needed to get that power to where it is and will be needed in the future.
It’s called progress people. Either get on board, or out of the way, or get ran over and left behind. I'm on board with a front row seat, and am greatly enjoying the prosperity along the way.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by STANG RED

It’s called progress people. Either get on board, or out of the way, or get ran over and left behind. I'm on board with a front row seat, and am greatly enjoying the prosperity along the way. :thumbsup:

[STANG RED]

Here is a piece of a report that some of you may find interesting to go read.

The following is a summary of the Electric Reliability Council of Texas’ (ERCOT) Report On Existing And Potential Electric System Constraints And Needs Within The ERCOT Region, which details the status of ERCOT’s transmission and distribution capabilities with regard to electric service in Texas, and fulfills the requirements of the Public Utility Regulatory Act (PURA) section 39.155(b), as amended by Senate Bill 7 in 1999.

http://tdworld.com/news/power_report_existing_potential/

Conclusion

What does this mean for Texas? Briefly stated, Texas’ power delivery infrastructure is in excellent condition in comparison to other states. It also means, however, that more transmission lines are needed to effectively move power around the state to meet the demand. Most of these additional transmission facilities would be needed whether or not Texas had chosen to restructure its market.



The good news is that Texas has plenty of power to meet the state’s needs. For example, there are just three power grids in the U.S.: the Western Interconnect, the Eastern Interconnect and Texas. Because Texas has its own grid, it is not dependent on imported energy. Some states, including California, must import power from hydroelectric plants in Oregon, Nevada and elsewhere. It’s also easier to build needed transmission facilities in Texas. The projects listed above represent ERCOT’s continuing efforts to increase the likelihood that power will flow easily around the state.



Electric use is continuing to grow, reflecting the transformation of our economy to a high-technology information base that relies on electricity. Electricity, though, is not a commodity that can be easily stored, and our transmission infrastructure is at the heart of our economic well-being. An open, coordinated transmission planning process that incorporates transmission upgrades to relieve constraints, unwavering reliability requirements, and the interconnection of new supply (including environmentally-friendly units) will be of paramount importance to the future of Texas.

[bigfrank]

Originally posted by STANG RED
You are mostly correct but not entirely accurate. Yes we are seeing lots more wind farms being built outside of Texas now, but I know of many projects still in the pipeline to be built in Texas, and know of several that are being built right now, and several more that will be starting up within the next couple of months. The biggest reason for the slowdown the past few months has more to do with financing than anything. But it is true that we are filling these transmission lines to capacity, and will need to build more very soon. People should also know, these transmission lines need to be built anyway. As our population grows and spreads out even more, there is more and more need for electricity in more and more areas. No matter how the electricity is being generated, more transmission lines are needed to get that power to where it is and will be needed in the future.
It’s called progress people. Either get on board, or out of the way, or get ran over and left behind. I'm on board with a front row seat, and am greatly enjoying the prosperity along the way.

I should of said "our" company is not developing any new projects for 09 or 10. We are continuing to build the ones we have secured transmission for.
There are projects in the pipeline but will not be built until either the state builds transmission or we do ourself.
Good info you have. Maybe we need to hire you.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by bigfrank
I should of said "our" company is not developing any new projects for 09 or 10. We are continuing to build the ones we have secured transmission for.
There are projects in the pipeline but will not be built until either the state builds transmission or we do ourself.
Good info you have. Maybe we need to hire you.

Sounds like you and I should get together. One of many things our company does is build transmission lines and sub-stations. In fact we just finished a transmission line at the "No Trees phase II" project out near Odessa.

I have a great job that I am very satisfied with at the moment, buy I'm always open to looking at other oppertunities. Also, our company is always looking for good knowledgeable to bring into our renewable energy division. Maybe we need to hire you.
Either way, I'd love to get up with you someday. If for nothing more, just to talk about the industy and maybe exchange an idea or two.

[bigfrank]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Sounds like you and I should get together. One of many things our company does is build transmission lines and sub-stations. In fact we just finished a transmission line at the "No Trees phase II" project out near Odessa.

I have a great job that I am very satisfied with at the moment, buy I'm always open to looking at other oppertunities. Also, our company is always looking for good knowledgeable to bring into our renewable energy division. Maybe we need to hire you.
Either way, I'd love to get up with you someday. If for nothing more, just to talk about the industy and maybe exchange an idea or two.

Hey Stang,
I sent you a pm.

[slingshot]

Maybe you should just all stand around and sing Cumbaya (sp?) :rolleyes: Obviously my opinion is the clear minority among the industry spokespeople here... besides--this is a 3A sports site... I'm out!

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by slingshot
Maybe you should just all stand around and sing Cumbaya (sp?) :rolleyes: Obviously my opinion is the clear minority among the industry spokespeople here... besides--this is a 3A sports site... I'm out!

Perhaps if your opinion had more validity in it, it would be more relevant.
I’ll be more than happy to send you volumes of information on the subject to educate yourself with, if your really interested in learning the facts. I’m sure you’ll find at least 90% of it to be very boring, but that’s just the way facts are sometime. And their not usually nearly as exciting as what the conspiracy theorists can dream up and quote as fact.

[Trashman]

Good info red and big frank.:D The more alternative energy sources we have the less we are likely to be dependent on forgien oil. I love it!;)

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Trashman
Good info red and big frank.:D The more alternative energy sources we have the less we are likely to be dependent on forgien oil. I love it!;) and that is something, no matter the aisle you sit on politically, we can all agree on. Stang Red and BigFrank, I'm on a ecological sustainability panel, I'd like to talk to you guys about some things, I'll send yall a pm

oh and Cumbaya!

[dawg4life]

Originally posted by Trashman
Good info red and big frank.:D The more alternative energy sources we have the less we are likely to be dependent on forgien oil. I love it!;)

I agree that we need alt energy to be dependent on oil, but this is a little fact: windmills cant power cars. Our oil use is for cars.Unless you find a car that runs on wind, oil dependence isnt even an issue here.

For grid energy, We need to abolish all incentives and subsides and have the free market pick the winner. If wind is the best choice, the free market will go to it, and you guys win and I would shut up and take it. But the fact is, Everyone knows the free market wont go to it. It will go to nuke power most likely, because its energy efficient. And if you believe in that GW crap ( I dont), its prolly the best way to combat it.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by dawg4life
I agree that we need alt energy to be dependent on oil, but this is a little fact: windmills cant power cars. Our oil use is for cars.Unless you find a car that runs on wind, oil dependence isnt even an issue here.

For grid energy, We need to abolish all incentives and subsides and have the free market pick the winner. If wind is the best choice, the free market will go to it, and you guys win and I would shut up and take it. But the fact is, Everyone knows the free market wont go to it. It will go to nuke power most likely, because its energy efficient. And if you believe in that GW crap ( I dont), its prolly the best way to combat it.

Nuke power is great, and certainly needs to be a part of this puzzle. And if the EPA and the bureaucrats ever come to agreements so more nuke plants can be built, GREAT! But for your information, no permits have been written for new nuke plants in the last 25 years. They cost billions to build, and take several years to build. Even if they wrote a permit tomorrow, it would be 10 to 15 years before the first reactor would even come on line, and even when it does come on line, we still have to have miles and miles of transmission lines that need to be built to get the power where it is needed.

And here is a little fact for you my friend. Most of our oil use is for Industrial purposes and not for automobile use. And most of these industrial uses could easily be transformed to use cheap electricity if it was there with enough capacity, which can only be gained by developing wind, nuclear, natural gas, and coal generation, and the transmission deliver system to move that power. Once this is achieved, we can tell all those middle eastern haters of the USA to kiss our butts.

[dawg4life]

Originally posted by STANG RED

And here is a little fact for you my friend. Most of our oil use is for Industrial purposes and not for automobile use.

Gimme evidence for this. An actual credible source. im curious now.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by dawg4life
Gimme evidence for this. An actual credible source. im curious now.

I've read it numerous times in verious credible reports, but I honestly cant pull one off the top of my head at the moment. And when I say credible, I'm not talking about something put out by someone with an axe to grind or an agenda to advance. Those are never accurate, so I dont waste my time studying them.
But if you are just an observant person, and have traveled this country far and wide as I have, it is easy to see where industry uses a staggering amount of fossil fuels on a daily basis. But if you have never been involved in any heavy industrial industries, it probably isnt something you have ever been close enough to to realize just how dependent they are on oil on a massive level. The rubber and plastics industry alone uses enough oil to power hundreds of thousands of automobiles every day. The same can be said for many in the chemicals industries. And the list goes on and on and on.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by dawg4life
Gimme evidence for this. An actual credible source. im curious now.

Well here is a source that you may or may not choose to believe, but here it is anyway. And this goes right along with most what I have heard and read in the past from CREDIBLE sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_use_in_the_United_States

It shows US oil comsumption broken down like this.
Industrial - 33%
Transportation - 28%
Residential - 21%
Commercial - 17%

So as you can see, transportation, which includes all cars, planes, traines, trucks etc etc etc... only accounts for 28% of our usage.
Now just imagine how cheap that mid eastern oil will become, if we can convert most of that other 72% usage over to the use of home grown electricity, by all the means at our disposal.

[dawg4life]

That says what percent of energy overall. Nothing about just petroleum use.

[Trashman]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9d/US_historical_energy_consumption.PNG

[dawg4life]

ya. Thats total energy used. We use more for transportation. Because grid energy is all of those combined. All of transport is monopolized by patroleum. SO if u add all of the others, it is over patroleum.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by dawg4life
I think wind COULD be a good thing. The thing is, its not energy efficient. U know when they arnt rotating they have to use oil to run them.

If windmills are the answer, the free market would go to them, not having to have the government subsidize them to the point it would be stupid not to.



This line if blank was the answer, the free market would go to them. The free market is not free contrary to popular belief. It is captive. The powers that be do not want change until they can take advantage of it. And the average consumer is not educated enough to understand the advantage or disadvantage plus there are those who object to change because it messes up their view or it is ugly or it kills birds. There are people like this and enough uneducated consumers to elect almost anyone or any proposition. Thus the market does not really work freely. Only when it is slam dunk does it work and even then not as well as it could due to governments like Sweetwater who think they can manipulate it.

[Farmersfan]

I honestly don't see why we are having this discussion at all. Any type of alternative energy should be desireable for ALL Americans. I for one beleive we should lean towards energy production that causes the LEAST amount of disposable waste. Nuclear production also requires disposal of radioactive waste. Petroleum production and use causes poison gas emmisions that are undesireable. But what harmful effects are created by Wind, Solar, or Hydro production???? And all of these are inexhaustable resources unlike all the others. The more people actually address these alternative ways the more technological advancements will increase in these areas. We can't let Big-Wigs or Government keep us in the dark ages for the sake of profits.....

[dawg4life]

Nuke waste can be solved. Im not sayin alt energy is bad. Im just saying that the govt has tro stop subsidizing things.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by dawg4life
Nuke waste can be solved. Im not sayin alt energy is bad. Im just saying that the govt has tro stop subsidizing things.


That is true but why throw out the baby with the "Subsidized" bath water????? It's Tit for Tat if you ask me. The Government is spending billions on subsidizing our current energy needs so why would we take offense to them subsidizing a NEW energy source? It's kind of like saying you will not buy a new car until the government fixes all the older cars................
And if you consider that most radioactive waste has a half-life of a be-gillion years it makes ZERO sense to intentionally create the waste in the first place. Some say that this waste can be incinerated at very high temperatures and rendered harmless but the incineration process uses MORE energy and puts harmful poisons in to the air. Easily solved? We can manufacture a filter system to remove the harmful waste from the smoke when we incinerate our radioactive waste! Problems solved? No because now we need to kill trees to make the filter membranes that will be used to filter the smoke from the incineration process that will eliminate our radioactive waste. Oh! and BTW: we need oil to incinerate the waste.........................

[Farmersfan]

"Most of the radioactive isotopes in high level waste emit large amounts of radiation and have extremely long half-lives (some longer than 100,000 years) creating long time periods before the waste will settle to safe levels of radioactivity."

Enough said!!!




http://www.history.rochester.edu/class/EZRA/

[dawg4life]

the government subsidizing bath water is nothing compared to an energy source. When the government picks winners and losers, the impx are huge. & 2 wrongs dont make a right.

First of all. Nuke waste isnt as bad as people say. Did you know a banana has more radioactivity than a nuke plant emits?

Baltimore Sun, November 11, 2007, http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/ideas
/bal-id.nuclear11nov11,0,7011505.story?track=rss


After all, the amount of radiation the average person receives from nuclear plants every year is about as much as he or she gets from eating a banana. Tap water is also slightly radioactive. So are our own bodies and the walls of our homes. Magazine editor and writer Gwyneth Cravens, a former anti-nuclear protester, presents these facts in a fascinating but flawed new book, Power to Save the World: The Truth About Nuclear Energy.


Also, waste volume is so low. To power your house for your life, The waste would be the size of a doorknob. Plus waste can be solved.

April 16, 2006, Washington Post, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401209.html

"Nuclear waste will be dangerous for thousands of years. Within 40 years, used fuel has less than one-thousandth of the radioactivity it had when it was removed from the reactor. And it is incorrect to call it waste, because 95 percent of the potential energy is still contained in the used fuel after the first cycle. Now that the United States has removed the ban on recycling used fuel, it will be possible to use that energy and to greatly reduce the amount of waste that needs treatment and disposal. Last month, Japan joined France, Britain and Russia in the nuclear-fuel-recycling business. The United States will not be far behind."



These rnt even issues. Nuke power is much better than wind. It wins in everything except wind has no waste. But that is it.

[SintonFan]

What happens on those hottest days of the year when the wind doesn't blow?
.
Just a curious thought... (if this was brought up already, sorry)

:thinking:

[DDBooger]

] bah, nevermind, i'll do my own research :)

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by DDBooger
] bah, nevermind, i'll do my own research :)
.
Don't those wind blades chop up birds?
Maybe a secondary market to provide for Chinese food restaurants is feasable...
or sub-lease duck-salad food stands under each turbine.:thinking:

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
Don't those wind blades chop up birds?
Maybe a secondary market to provide for Chinese food restaurants is feasable...
or sub-lease duck-salad food stands under each turbine.:thinking: Chinese would go off right now! :D
how ya been SF?

[SintonFan]

Been pretty good.
mmmmm...
Peaking duck- Ducks that get chopped up at the peak of the blade rotation.
How are you?:D

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by SintonFan
What happens on those hottest days of the year when the wind doesn't blow?
.
Just a curious thought... (if this was brought up already, sorry)

:thinking:

Simple answer. The turbines simply dont turn.

But here is a little info for ya. The developers of these wind farms first use already existing data that shows all the areas and their daily averagle wind. Then they will put up MET towers in those areas for a year or two to gather even more accurate data, and at what height the optimum wind levels are blowing. Often when it is still on the ground, there is as much as a 10 mph wind 300' up in the air. In the end, they simply cant build a wind farm in an area that doesnt have at least 300 or so good wind days per year, because these wind farms cost millions to build, and without the data proving there is adequate wind on enough days to be profitable, the lending institutions will not lend the money to the developers to build the farm.
Most wind farms are in the planning and data gathering stage for 3 to 5 years before financing is secured and construction begins.
Also, it only takes about a 7 mph wind to make these turbines turn and make electricity, and most areas the wind farms are being built will have at least that much wind well over 300 days per year.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by dawg4life
Nuke power is much better than wind. It wins in everything except wind has no waste. But that is it.

I completely agree with everything you are saying about Nuke power. But there are huge logistical problems that will have to be overcome first. First: Where are you going to build them? Nobody wants to live near them. Second: They cost billions upon billions $, and take 10 years at best to build and will probably take closer to 15 to 20. And where do you think all those billions will come from? Thats right, from those same hated government subsidies your screaming about. Third: We cant wait 10 to 20 years down the road for this power to hit the lines. We need everything we can generate now. Forth: Nuke Power plants generate so much power, it takes lots of huge transmission lines to carry all that power (again more subsidized billions and years to build) that simply are not in place at the present time.

No doubt Nuke Power will have to be a huge part of solving our energy needs in the future, but we cant just sit around for the next 15 to 20 years waiting on it. We have to use every resource at our disposal now just in attempt to keep up with our ever growing demand.
Dont worry, your Nukes are coming and will be desperatley needed when they go on line. But it isnt going to happen quickly or anytimne soon.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Simple answer. The turbines simply dont turn.

But here is a little info for ya. The developers of these wind farms first use already existing data that shows all the areas and their daily averagle wind. Then they will put up MET towers in those areas for a year or two to gather even more accurate data, and at what height the optimum wind levels are blowing. Often when it is still on the ground, there is as much as a 10 mph wind 300' up in the air. In the end, they simply cant build a wind farm in an area that doesnt have at least 300 or so good wind days per year, because these wind farms cost millions to build, and without the data proving there is adequate wind on enough days to be profitable, the lending institutions will not lend the money to the developers to build the farm.
Most wind farms are in the planning and data gathering stage for 3 to 5 years before financing is secured and construction begins.
Also, it only takes about a 7 mph wind to make these turbines turn and make electricity, and most areas the wind farms are being built will have at least that much wind well over 300 days per year.

Well you know the wind blows in west texas always has always will. When you head south out of Abilene on 277 you can see them up on the hill. When you pass the cutoff to buffalo gap and come out the other side you have passed them all. It is pretty windy up there. And I can tell you most of that land is useless. My cousin has four of them on his land and all his land is good for is sheep for the most part for graze. It certainly is not usable for much else. And he is making a buck on it. I am for it under these conditions on land like this with out equivocation.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Simple answer. The turbines simply dont turn.

But here is a little info for ya. The developers of these wind farms first use already existing data that shows all the areas and their daily averagle wind. Then they will put up MET towers in those areas for a year or two to gather even more accurate data, and at what height the optimum wind levels are blowing. Often when it is still on the ground, there is as much as a 10 mph wind 300' up in the air. In the end, they simply cant build a wind farm in an area that doesnt have at least 300 or so good wind days per year, because these wind farms cost millions to build, and without the data proving there is adequate wind on enough days to be profitable, the lending institutions will not lend the money to the developers to build the farm.
Most wind farms are in the planning and data gathering stage for 3 to 5 years before financing is secured and construction begins.
Also, it only takes about a 7 mph wind to make these turbines turn and make electricity, and most areas the wind farms are being built will have at least that much wind well over 300 days per year.
.
Just a thought(or two)...
so there is a chance that these windmills might not produce energy 15% of the time during the day. Doesn't the wind also normally die down at night to nothing? Would that not increase the down time of the wind turbines?

[sinfan75]

During the summer back in my roughneckin days and workin evenin tour the wind would kick up about 5-6 o'clock in the evening. Plus workin derricks be up about 150' in the air at night and have a fairly nice breeze while everybody on the floor was sweatin their butts off sayin there wasn't no breeze at all.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
Just a thought(or two)...
so there is a chance that these windmills might not produce energy 15% of the time during the day. Doesn't the wind also normally die down at night to nothing? Would that not increase the down time of the wind turbines?

Certainly some nights its too calm, but remember these things are 300' up, and it is blowing that 7 mph needed most of the time up there. And again they only build these farms in areas where that wind is proven to blow enough the majority of the time. Sure there down some, but in the optimum areas, they arent down much. I'd bet yall have a prevailing wind off the ocean down there at least 90% of the time, especially 300' up in the air.
Solar on the other hand is a whole lot more ify. They certainly dont generate anything at night, and some days I'd imagine cloud cover would be a problem.
Wind Power is a great way to go right now, and they are learning more every day, so the technology is improving all the time. Within 5 years or so, I bet we wont be putting up any tubines smaller than 5+ mgw, and I may be greatly underestimating that. Most going up now are 1.5 to 2.5 mgw. Just a couple years ago, 1.5 was the biggest going up. They now have working prototypes of 6mgw and larger. The industry will improve and change a lot over the next few years for sure as tech continues to advance. But just like all industries, it has to be given a chance to go through its growing pains.

[Farmersfan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dawg4life
[B]the government subsidizing bath water is nothing compared to an energy source. When the government picks winners and losers, the impx are huge. & 2 wrongs dont make a right.

First of all. Nuke waste isnt as bad as people say. Did you know a banana has more radioactivity than a nuke plant emits?

Baltimore Sun, November 11, 2007, http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/ideas
/bal-id.nuclear11nov11,0,7011505.story?track=rss


Comparing the natural decay process of all organic things to the radioactive waste in a Nuke plant is possibly the biggest stretch in the history of stretches. First off, a banana might have more radioactivity than what a nuke plant emits! That's because a "Nuke" plant has had billions and billions of dollars spent on containment of a very, very harmful substance. I can't speak for you but where I come from we don't say it's acceptable to spend a billion dollars to make something as safe as a banana and then claim it's "As safe as a banana".................
And the radioactive half-life of Plutonium is 24100 years. The thing about this is that even when it reaches "Half" it's original level of radioactivity it's still too damaging to be safe. So another 24100 years will pass before it's 1/4 it's original radioactivity. And STILL not safe..........
BTW: Plutonium is one of the safest. Some have a halflife of over 100k years.

Wind turbines: I really don't get excited about these for mass-produced energy. Big business will have their fingers in this pie also and the consumer will get shafted in the end. I look to this for individual freedom from the requirment to even be connected to the energy "Grid"! If battery technology would allow the storage of enough energy then a single family could use a combination of wind and solar and be completely self sustaining and ZERO waste producing. With the advancments in electric cars we could be gasoline free as a nation in OUR lifetime....It won't happen but the possibility is there.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Certainly some nights its too calm, but remember these things are 300' up, and it is blowing that 7 mph needed most of the time up there. And again they only build these farms in areas where that wind is proven to blow enough the majority of the time. Sure there down some, but in the optimum areas, they arent down much. I'd bet yall have a prevailing wind off the ocean down there at least 90% of the time, especially 300' up in the air.
Solar on the other hand is a whole lot more ify. They certainly dont generate anything at night, and some days I'd imagine cloud cover would be a problem.
Wind Power is a great way to go right now, and they are learning more every day, so the technology is improving all the time. Within 5 years or so, I bet we wont be putting up any tubines smaller than 5+ mgw, and I may be greatly underestimating that. Most going up now are 1.5 to 2.5 mgw. Just a couple years ago, 1.5 was the biggest going up. They now have working prototypes of 6mgw and larger. The industry will improve and change a lot over the next few years for sure as tech continues to advance. But just like all industries, it has to be given a chance to go through its growing pains.


The technology that you are speaking of is basically being applied to "Mass Produced" energy. Correct? I had read somewhere that big energy companies are constantly buying up new advancements in energy storage and burying them. In a day when we can fit several Terabits of information in the palm of our hand it seems a bit unreal that we have not been able to store electrical energy efficiently. What do know on this subject?

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
The technology that you are speaking of is basically being applied to "Mass Produced" energy. Correct? I had read somewhere that big energy companies are constantly buying up new advancements in energy storage and burying them. In a day when we can fit several Terabits of information in the palm of our hand it seems a bit unreal that we have not been able to store electrical energy efficiently. What do know on this subject?

Well your getting a little out of my field of expertise now. The tech I know something about is within the wind turbine industry. I have heard lots of talk about better battery technology being worked on, but I honestly haven’t researched much of that, so I know nothing more than what I hear on the occasional reports/discussions on tv and radio. But I have heard many discussions on the need for more emphasis to be put on developing much better battery technology, and know there are companies and individuals out there working on that. How far away from a viable solution are we? Danged if I know.
But I’m guessing there will be some huge profits to be made by whoever does find the right recipe, so I’m also guessing there are lots of smart people working lots of long hours trying to figure it out. It’ll happen. But great new technology doesn’t happen overnight, so we’ll all have to be patient a little longer on this. And I’m not one that subscribes to all these conspiracy theories that are always swirling around about companies buying up technology just to shelve it. I’m realistic enough to know that a little of that probably does go on, but not nearly to the extent that some may think.

[Farmersfan]

Originally posted by STANG RED
Well your getting a little out of my field of expertise now. The tech I know something about is within the wind turbine industry. I have heard lots of talk about better battery technology being worked on, but I honestly haven’t researched much of that, so I know nothing more than what I hear on the occasional reports/discussions on tv and radio. But I have heard many discussions on the need for more emphasis to be put on developing much better battery technology, and know there are companies and individuals out there working on that. How far away from a viable solution are we? Danged if I know.
But I’m guessing there will be some huge profits to be made by whoever does find the right recipe, so I’m also guessing there are lots of smart people working lots of long hours trying to figure it out. It’ll happen. But great new technology doesn’t happen overnight, so we’ll all have to be patient a little longer on this. And I’m not one that subscribes to all these conspiracy theories that are always swirling around about companies buying up technology just to shelve it. I’m realistic enough to know that a little of that probably does go on, but not nearly to the extent that some may think.


I would also like to think that a company such as Exxon would not do anything that would set the human race back 100 years like buy up the design for a new battery pack that would basically render their product obsolete. But alas, i know how the world works. Exxon, Johnson & Johnson or R.J. Reynolds would all rather half the world dies than give up their profits. The auto manufactoring companies have been lobbied for decades now to make more evironmentally friendly vehicles yet they continue to push the envelope on Governmental emmissions regulations because it improves their profits. 95% of all big business will do what they have to do to make the dollars... all else be damned!
(Wow! I must live in a very depressing world).....::(
But's it's fun to discuss.

[dawg4life]

Originally posted by Farmersfan
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dawg4life
[B]the government subsidizing bath water is nothing compared to an energy source. When the government picks winners and losers, the impx are huge. & 2 wrongs dont make a right.

First of all. Nuke waste isnt as bad as people say. Did you know a banana has more radioactivity than a nuke plant emits?

Baltimore Sun, November 11, 2007, http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/ideas
/bal-id.nuclear11nov11,0,7011505.story?track=rss


Comparing the natural decay process of all organic things to the radioactive waste in a Nuke plant is possibly the biggest stretch in the history of stretches. First off, a banana might have more radioactivity than what a nuke plant emits! That's because a "Nuke" plant has had billions and billions of dollars spent on containment of a very, very harmful substance. I can't speak for you but where I come from we don't say it's acceptable to spend a billion dollars to make something as safe as a banana and then claim it's "As safe as a banana".................
And the radioactive half-life of Plutonium is 24100 years. The thing about this is that even when it reaches "Half" it's original level of radioactivity it's still too damaging to be safe. So another 24100 years will pass before it's 1/4 it's original radioactivity. And STILL not safe..........
BTW: Plutonium is one of the safest. Some have a halflife of over 100k years.

Wind turbines: I really don't get excited about these for mass-produced energy. Big business will have their fingers in this pie also and the consumer will get shafted in the end. I look to this for individual freedom from the requirment to even be connected to the energy "Grid"! If battery technology would allow the storage of enough energy then a single family could use a combination of wind and solar and be completely self sustaining and ZERO waste producing. With the advancments in electric cars we could be gasoline free as a nation in OUR lifetime....It won't happen but the possibility is there.

ya. ur first arguemnt made no sense. They cost that much to protect them from terrorist attacks.

The fact still remains: The free market should regulate winners and losers in the energy fields. not the government