Everybody knows 3A compares to about JV football when you get up into the 5A ranks

[Emerson1]

This is the thread on another site.

"I say the top 10% of 3A teams could compete with the lower 50% of 5A teams. Thoughts? "

I am actually defending 3A to on the thread.:eek: It is kind of funny to hear about how 3As have to play almost every player both ways and it's a big deal for them to have a D1 player

[Emerson1]

Can someone provide me with a list of the Gilmer athletes in D1? Weren't there like 10 between the JR and SR class at one point?

[Bullaholic]

Some of the 7-on-7 tournaments are as close of a 3A vs 5A team skill positions only comparasion as you are likely to see. Usually a good 5A school blows the smaller schools away, but not always--there have been some 3A schools who have won it all.

[turbostud]

UT has about 6 or 7 3a players on their roster and even some 2a's. I just did a quick look so I may have even missed a few. a couple from Gilmer.

[LionKing]

There are several top 3A schools that can compete with 5A schools, in 06 and 07, Brownwood competed in 4A with 3A numbers and beat some very good large 4A schools with 5A numbers (Copperas Cove, Waco Midway).
Common sense dictates 3A will not dominate 5A, but the top 3A schools can compete with several 5A schools.

[Necks_Fan]

I have a feeling that the Gilmer team I saw beat WO-S could go toe to toe with the 5A Katy team that won state. JMO.

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Emerson1
Can someone provide me with a list of the Gilmer athletes in D1? Weren't there like 10 between the JR and SR class at one point? Those from Gilmer currently playing college football:

Manuel Johnson - Oklahoma (Senior, WR)
Justin Johnson - Oklahoma (Freshman, RB)
Lamar Harris - Oklahoma (RS Freshman, DB)
Curtis Brown - Texas (Sophmore, DB)
David Snow - Texas (Freshman, OL)
Tay Bowser - Mississippi State (RS Junior, DB)
Daniel Jenkins - Missouri (RS Freshman, OL)
Houston Tuminello - Louisiana Tech (Freshman, WR)
GJ Kinne - Tulsa (Sophmore, QB, Transfered from Texas)
Jamell Kennedy - SMU (Sophmore, WR)
Derek McKenzie - Texas A&M Commerce (RS Senior, RB)
Shea Harborth - ETBU (Junior, K)
Ross Stevens - Tyler Junior College (Freshman, LB)
Kendal Abron - Kilgore College (Sophmore, DL)

There may be a few more that I either can't remember or can't find their information.

thread link (http://bbs.3adownlow.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86482&highlight=gilmer+players)

[LionKing]

Originally posted by Necks_Fan
I have a feeling that the Gilmer team I saw beat WO-S could go toe to toe with the 5A Katy team that won state. JMO. I have a feeling both 5A champs weren't even the best teams in Texas, 4A Lake Travis gets my nod.

[Necks_Fan]

Originally posted by LionKing
I have a feeling both 5A champs weren't even the best teams in Texas, 4A Lake Travis gets my nod. LT may ahve been that good, but I'll say that Allen and FBHT were both DANG good. 2 best 5A's in the State.


Katy, not so much.

[LionKing]

Originally posted by Necks_Fan
LT may ahve been that good, but I'll say that Allen and FBHT were both DANG good. 2 best 5A's in the State.


Katy, not so much. I agree, that's the downfall to the two div. state titles, sometimes the two best teams don't get the two state titles.

[sahen]

Cleveland, a decent 3a school took New Caney a horrible 5a behind the woodshed this year....

3a schools can beat 5a schools, however it has to be a good 3a playing a really bad 5a in most cases...you have a few exceptions w/ teams that happen to be loaded in 3a that could compete with the middle of the road 5a teams (read 3rd and 4th playoff teams in 5a) but normally they are only loaded for a short period of time and wouldnt be able to compete like that yearly...

the problem most 3a's would have is that the playing style in 5a would wear them out (a lot of spread offenses in 5a vs. the typical running games in 3a)...they dont have the numbers to play a 5a school that has the rare exception playing both ways while in 3a most of the good players are on both sides of the ball....they would hang w/ them for a half or so but i think most of the time the 5a would wear the 3a out in the 2nd half....

but, to tie this to the original quote....most 3a Varsity teams would beat 5a Junior Varsity's pretty handily....i'd say any decent 3a would beat almost every 5a JV minus the North Shore's, Katy's, and Southlake's of the world...and thats nothing to be ashamed of, those school's JVs would beat a lot of 5a Varisty squads as well...

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Some of the 7-on-7 tournaments are as close of a 3A vs 5A team skill positions only comparasion as you are likely to see. Usually a good 5A school blows the smaller schools away, but not always--there have been some 3A schools who have won it all.

When I was a senior we went to the state tournament in 7-on-7 and were one of only three 3A teams there, and we were in the pool with Highland Park, Langham Creek, and Southlake Carrol and played all of them very competitively. We actually led at halftime against Southlake and they barely beat us; we should have won but we had an INT returned for a TD against us...stuff happens. We were able to play them very competitively and we were 3-7 that season, which was a huge disappointment. In the end we didn't have the right stuff to compete in real football, because no matter how good our skill positions were, they don't mean a whole lot if you can't put it all together. Sure, there are some talented players in 3A no doubt, but I don't think you could take Celina or Carthage and compete with a decent 5A team. The crappy ones that never win any games, yes, but the teams who are 6-4 and 4th place in the playoffs would probably destroy any 3A team.

[I. B. Watching]

The level of play from the elite 5A is really outstanding. But with that said, there's a bunch of crappy 5A schools as well, and I would like my chances with a good 3A program against many of the below average 5As and a good number of 4As. In fact, I would think 3As top 20 teams would do well against the bottom half of 5A. Not saying they would win them all, but I bet they would win more than people would think. And if you just looked at the bottom 100 or so schools schools in 5A, I think the best of 3A wins with ease.

[Eagle1]

I would have to say that Celina, Liberty Hill, Carthage, Gilmer, LaVega, Cuero, and WOS maybe Giddings and Bellville could compete with 2/3rds of the 5A's. They would struggle with the top third.

[STANG RED]

Back when Sweetwater was one of the smallest 4As in the state (sometimes with 3A numbers), but was considered one of the elite 4As, we played 2 or 3 good 5As every pre district, and usually beat them handily. Many of which were 5A playoff teams in those years. And thats when only two went to the playoffs from each district. We were essentially a large 3A during most of that time.
I think your top 3As could compete toe to toe with even the top 5As for at least a couple quarters. But I think the better 5As would pull away in the second half.

[SintonFan_inAustin]

Originally posted by LionKing
I have a feeling both 5A champs weren't even the best teams in Texas, 4A Lake Travis gets my nod. past two years the only teams to put points on them and match them point for point through 3 qtrs were South Texas teams, Beeville last year and Alice this year. i think several teams would matchup with some of the top schools in 4a and 5a and beat the teams from the bi district and area round teams of those classifications.

[crabman]

Maybe WOS87 could help us out on this one. I always wanted somebody to figure out how many 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A, and 1A players were in D1 football from Texas as compared to the total enrollment in 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A, and 1A. I want to see if there is one 5A player out of every 10,000 in 5A to go D1 as opposed to one out of every 3,500 in 3A or some such statistic like that. 5A will definitely put more players in D1 but the numbers they draw from are staggering.

I would bet the 3A and 2A levels put more people in D1 per number of student athletes than the other classifications. I would also bet it is not even close. Good competition and a better opportunity to hone your game should make you a better player.

This would take a tremendous amount of research but it would be interesting.

[Rabid Cougar]

A top tier 3 A can hang with any 5 A for a period of time. After a while the numbers will take their toll. The difference is the sheer number of high caliber players on a 5A as opposed to a 3A.

A 3 A D1 player is as good as any 4 or 5 A D1 player.

[bigwood33]

The Harris Poll has been published since the early '60's and many high schools still use it as the real state rankings. In the Harris Poll each team in the state is given a Power number. By matching Power numbers they predict winners and losers for every game each week. It usually takes about 3 or 4 weeks to settle in and then they are incredibly accurate. If you use the Harris power numbers as a guide (very accurate) the top 3A teams would only be about 3 or 4 touchdown underdogs to the top 5A teams. That said, the top 3A's (top 15 or so) would be favorites over about 60% - 70% of the 5A's. I know that 5A supporters don't believe it and there is no way to prove it since no self respecting 5A would schedule any 3A because they have nothing to gain.

[Lion92]

When I was playing in the early 90's at Vernon we beat up on the three Wichita Falls schools every year and back then they were 5A. You can compete maybe not with the heavy hitters of %a but with the lower two thirds I think a good 3A school has a chance.

[4x100jackets]

You should be ashamed to even start a post like this. I guess that is why some 5a coaches think they are God's gift to coaching until they get a head 2a or 3a job where they actually have to coach a kid that don't have pure talant.....THEN THEY ARE BROUGHT DOWN TO EARTH THEN........... 0-10 season or 2-8...

[Twirling Time]

The problem you run into is depth. Your 3A best eleven may be just as good as the 5A eleven, but you have to rotate kids in and injuries happen, and odds are the 5A team will have a much deeper bench.

[Who-dun-it!!?]

Originally posted by turbostud
UT has about 6 or 7 3a players on their roster and even some 2a's. I just did a quick look so I may have even missed a few. a couple from Gilmer.

Yea, there's this kid from Jim Ned (2A) thats playin QB down there in Austin. Guess most 5A'rs havn't heard of him yet, but he nearly got himself a heisman this year.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Well Celina won the 7 on 7 tourney back when we were 2a and all classes compete. The looks on the faces of SLC and the like were " who is Celina ".

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
Well Celina won the 7 on 7 tourney back when we were 2a and all classes compete. The looks on the faces of SLC and the like were " who is Celina ".
7 on 7 shouldn't even be brought up in this argument. Brady was very competitive in 7-7 a few years ago, yet couldn't even come close to competing on the field, even after the drop to 2A.

[BleedOrange]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
7 on 7 shouldn't even be brought up in this argument. Brady was very competitive in 7-7 a few years ago, yet couldn't even come close to competing on the field, even after the drop to 2A.

I don't know this for sure but I believe that would be the exception and not the rule. I think if looked at you will find that a majority of the teams that do well in 7 on 7 field pretty decent 11 man teams. There is a lot to be said for the time the QB's and receivers get to know each other in the off season.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
7 on 7 shouldn't even be brought up in this argument. Brady was very competitive in 7-7 a few years ago, yet couldn't even come close to competing on the field, even after the drop to 2A.

7-on-7 is the only arena of any kind of football competition between 5A and 3A teams, so why shouldn't it be mentioned?

[bigwood33]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
7-on-7 is the only arena of any kind of football competition between 5A and 3A teams, so why shouldn't it be mentioned?
Because it isn't really football. Receivers run every route with no concern of getting the crap knocked out of them and qb's never have pressure. I'm betting that LH never does very well in 7 on 7;)

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by bigwood33
Because it isn't really football. Receivers run every route with no concern of getting the crap knocked out of them and qb's never have pressure. I'm betting that LH never does very well in 7 on 7;)

Oh, I am well acquainted with the workings of 7-on-7. My point is that here is that no other on-the-field comparasion of any kind between the two classes currently exists. This is all we have got and I didn't say it was a great comparasion tool.

[bigwood33]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Oh, I am well acquainted with the workings of 7-on-7. My point is that here is that no other on-the-field comparasion of any kind between the two classes currently exists. This is all we have got and I didn't say it was a great comparasion tool.
That's why looking at something like the Harris Poll makes the most sense. Any system that utilizes a power system may be a viable comparison and you CAN take a look at how 3A teams do when playing 4A schools and make some logical leaps. Since 4A's do play some 5A's the 3A v 4A results do make some sense.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
7-on-7 is the only arena of any kind of football competition between 5A and 3A teams, so why shouldn't it be mentioned?
Sure, it's the only area, but how many teams actually participate in the SQT's compared to the number of teams in the state?

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Sure, it's the only area, but how many teams actually participate in the SQT's compared to the number of teams in the state? :doh: :crazy1:

[Rabid Cougar]

7 on 7 is for the playground

Linemen Challanges are where the real men are!

[Panther One]

Originally posted by bigwood33
I'm betting that LH never does very well in 7 on 7;)
We never compete in tournaments...just face off with Leander every week over the summer. In the summer of 2006 (prior to our first title), we actually split with them for the summer, which is pretty impressive for a running 3A school facing a spread 5A school. I didn't keep up with how we did the past two summers.

I think people would be surprised at how well some of the better 3A's could hang with the better 5As. Like most games, success would hinge heavily on the matchup, as particular 3As would matchup up with particular 5As better than others. Last year I watched the SA Reagan-Judson game before we played Pleasanton in the Alamodome. I was not overly impressed with either team. I think the team we had last year could have beaten either. I'm not saying a win was a given, but I didn't see anything from either team to make me think we couldn't pull off a win. Neither had the size or athleticsim of Gilmer, and we did okay against those guys. And since we two platoon, having guys going both ways wouldn't be much of an issue for us. How we would have faired against other 5As in 2007 is anyone's guess, but against those two, we could have definitely won.

[Troybuilt]

only two sports compare between 3a and 5a.

track and golf.

[bigwood33]

Originally posted by Troybuilt
only two sports compare between 3a and 5a.

track and golf.
That's crap. In fact, the only sport that almost never pits a 3A team against a 5A team is football. Basketball and baseball tournaments routinely have these types of matchups. I'm reminded of 1986/1987 when class A Paducah went to the Amarillo High invitational tournament (Amarillo High was the defending 5A state champion) and won the tournament (and the 1987 and 1988 state championships). We are 3A and have had Mesquite teams in our baseball tournament.

[Necks_Fan]

Originally posted by Troybuilt
only two sports compare between 3a and 5a.

track and golf. I would think that Track is one of the only things 3A's wouldn't be able to compete well in against 5A's. :thinking:

[Rabid Cougar]

Originally posted by Necks_Fan
I would think that Track is one of the only things 3A's wouldn't be able to compete well in against 5A's. :thinking:

I disagree with that comment.
It is the same concept as football. 5 As would win the meet due to numbers. There are some Region III 3A track teams that are freakish. However, If you go to Region III Regional meet at Humble......
5As' there are mind blowing. :eek:

[20loboes10]

I think the only thing that would hurt a 3A school playing a 5A school would be that the 3A players would get tired and not be able to finish the game against a 5A team. 5A teams just have enough players to where no one has to play both sides of the ball.

[OrangeChamps]

3a vs. 5a is not all about the athletes and number of kids. Sure they play a role, but attitude and program play a bigger role imo. You take the top 4-5 3a schools and I believe they could beat a lot of the one and done playoff teams in 4 & 5a. The Carthage team this year was one of the largest, most-talented, well-coached teams I have seen below the 4a-5a level, and they can hang with any 5a team. Maybe not the whole game, but definitly the majority of it. Every few years you have a team that comes through like that; with the size, speed, and coaching that makes them head and shoulders above the rest.

On a side note, to say that 7-on-7 should not be mentioned in this discussion is a joke. 7-on-7 is the only chance most of the 1a, 2a, 3a kids ever have to competing against the skill and athleticism of the larger schools. I played on the Celina team that beat all those big, fast 4a & 5a athletes w/ college scholarships, and still believe it to be just as big if not bigger accomplishment than winning state 3 times. Playing both ways, 5 games in a row, in 100 degree heat against Southlake, Grapevine, Baytown Lee, Abilene High, etc. and seeing that dumbfounded look on their faces while we beat their superior butts in the dirt, priceless. You just don't get to see that, ever.

[Rabid Cougar]

Originally posted by OrangeChamps
3a vs. 5a is not all about the athletes and number of kids. Sure they play a role, but attitude and program play a bigger role imo. You take the top 4-5 3a schools and I believe they could beat a lot of the one and done playoff teams in 4 & 5a. The Carthage team this year was one of the largest, most-talented, well-coached teams I have seen below the 4a-5a level, and they can hang with any 5a team. Maybe not the whole game, but definitly the majority of it. Every few years you have a team that comes through like that; with the size, speed, and coaching that makes them head and shoulders above the rest.

On a side note, to say that 7-on-7 should not be mentioned in this discussion is a joke. 7-on-7 is the only chance most of the 1a, 2a, 3a kids ever have to competing against the skill and athleticism of the larger schools. I played on the Celina team that beat all those big, fast 4a & 5a athletes w/ college scholarships, and still believe it to be just as big if not bigger accomplishment than winning state 3 times. Playing both ways, 5 games in a row, in 100 degree heat against Southlake, Grapevine, Baytown Lee, Abilene High, etc. and seeing that dumbfounded look on their faces while we beat their superior butts in the dirt, priceless. You just don't get to see that, ever.

Crane Golden Cranes think the same thing.

[Emerson1]

7 on 7 means nothing in this discussion. Teams have won it all then gone on to miss the playoffs and just be terrible in the regular season

When it is just 7 on 7 it's very easy to match man for man in skill players. It's when you have to add offensive and defensive linemen and blocking and all the other crap that the 5As will dominate at because of their ability to fill out the line with mobile 6'3" 280 linemen tackle to tackle that are also going to D1 schools. Something only a couple of 3A schools can do.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Emerson1
7 on 7 means nothing in this discussion. Teams have won it all then gone on to miss the playoffs and just be terrible in the regular season

When it is just 7 on 7 it's very easy to match man for man in skill players. It's when you have to add offensive and defensive linemen and blocking and all the other crap that the 5As will dominate at because of their ability to fill out the line with mobile 6'3" 280 linemen tackle to tackle that are also going to D1 schools. Something only a couple of 3A schools can do. I agree. Edcouch Elsa beat Southlake Carroll as well in 7on7. Didn't translate in the regular season. W/O the lineman it is hardly football lol. you could equate it to "And 1" basketball to REAL basketball. maybe not as flashy ;)

[Troybuilt]

Originally posted by bigwood33
That's crap. In fact, the only sport that almost never pits a 3A team against a 5A team is football. Basketball and baseball tournaments routinely have these types of matchups. I'm reminded of 1986/1987 when class A Paducah went to the Amarillo High invitational tournament (Amarillo High was the defending 5A state champion) and won the tournament (and the 1987 and 1988 state championships). We are 3A and have had Mesquite teams in our baseball tournament.

wrong stud, you are ignorant if you don't know that track is against time regardless of size of school. golf is against the course also regardless of the size of school. all other sports play against an opponent of players.

[bigwood33]

Originally posted by Troybuilt
wrong stud, you are ignorant if you don't know that track is against time regardless of size of school. golf is against the course also regardless of the size of school. all other sports play against an opponent of players.
All I was saying was that those aren't the only 2 sports that 3A's compete against 5A's. It also happens in basketball and baseball. Back up on the ingorant stuff... I coached this stuff for almost 20 years...I do have a clue.

[Troybuilt]

Originally posted by bigwood33
All I was saying was that those aren't the only 2 sports that 3A's compete against 5A's. It also happens in basketball and baseball. Back up on the ingorant stuff... I coached this stuff for almost 20 years...I do have a clue.

then practice the golden rule coach and back up on the crap stuff. All i was sayin was that it don't matter what A you are in with those particular sports. I have known 2 and 3 a golfers and sprinters who dominate in these sports. basketball and baseball are team sports and you have to look at the numbers and talent pool. naturally in 5 a the pool is larger. track and golf although are team school sports. they are individual sports the race against time and play against the course.


there

merry christmas coach of this stuff. what ever (stuff) is.

[bigwood33]

Originally posted by Troybuilt
then practice the golden rule coach and back up on the crap stuff. All i was sayin was that it don't matter what A you are in with those particular sports. I have known 2 and 3 a golfers and sprinters who dominate in these sports. basketball and baseball are team sports and you have to look at the numbers and talent pool. naturally in 5 a the pool is larger. track and golf although are team school sports. they are individual sports the race against time and play against the course.


there

merry christmas coach of this stuff. what ever (stuff) is.
Feel free to PM me.