Is the horse collar tackle illegal... [Archive]

Bullaholic

10-30-2008, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Bearkat
No, this would be considered holding. A player in the backfield can be hit but not tackled.

This is where it could be a bit tricky. What if a defensive player tackles a back after a really good fake handoff?

pero chato

10-30-2008, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by aggie
it was added to the rule book this year i believe....but they don't ever call it...

Well at least once. It was called against us (Wylie) when we played Brownwood.

pancho villa

10-30-2008, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Bullaholic
This is where it could be a bit tricky. What if a defensive player tackles a back after a really good fake handoff?

Backs can be tackled after a fake. No penalty!

trojan37

10-30-2008, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Bullaholic
This is where it could be a bit tricky. What if a defensive player tackles a back after a really good fake handoff?

Unless the rules have changed it is legal to tackle a back in reference to what you are talking about, especially like an option. We used to get told by our coaches to take out the option back, especially on a fake, and we were never called for it. That was a long time ago though.

NastySlot

10-30-2008, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by trojan37
Unless the rules have changed it is legal to tackle a back in reference to what you are talking about, especially like an option. We used to get told by our coaches to take out the option back, especially on a fake, and we were never called for it. That was a long time ago though.

we were told the same thing.....knock out the pitch man......holding by the defense in the backfield?......are you sure....cause there is no pass interference behind the line....so you got me thinking a little....but if you teach your ends or outside lb.s to blow up the lead blocker...blocking back isn't that almost the same as tackling.....maybe the wrapping up is wrong cause we teach put your shoulder pads into their tighs....you got me thinking now..

Bullaholic

10-30-2008, 01:56 PM

I always appreciate our officials when we discuss situations like this. You have to come to appreciate the skill an official must have to make split-second on-the-spot decisions and interpret the rules 100% correctly.

What if a back initiates a block after the fake? Can he still be tackled, even though he is a blocker? A defender could legitimately claim he was fooled by the fake and grab the back and throw him out of the way or to the ground in order to make the play on another back.

LH Panther Mom

10-30-2008, 02:00 PM

more info (http://bbs.3adownlow.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=87701)

ziggy29

10-30-2008, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Can any player in the backfield be tackled even if they don't have the ball?
Yes, if in the official's judgment the tackle/hold was the result of a fake handoff and the defender didn't have a reasonable chance to pull off or know the "phantom ballcarrier" did not have the ball.

If it was just a blocking back who was never in a fake handoff, or if it happens several seconds after a fake handoff, it would likely be a holding call.

Bullaholic

10-30-2008, 02:54 PM

My apologies, Red, I didn't mean to pirate this thread.:hijacktd:

bandera7

10-30-2008, 04:28 PM

hmmm. I know that when we played teams that liked deception plays, our coach would take out the football and use a little bouncy ball type thing. Then you didnt know who had the ball so you tackled every back. I think the rules shouldnt stop tackling in the back field if there is any doubt as to who has the ball.

Sweetwater Red

10-30-2008, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Bullaholic
My apologies, Red, I didn't mean to pirate this thread.:hijacktd:

Don't apologize. Kep answered my question with the first reply.
I'm glad it became a discussion.:)

bigwood33

10-30-2008, 04:55 PM

FYI, it is not illegal to "horse collar" a QB behind the los.

Bullaholic

10-30-2008, 05:01 PM

Is the dropkick legal in HS? If the ball is kicked between the uprights by a dropkick, does it count 3 pts. if a FG try, or 1Pt. if a PAT?

Bullaholic

10-30-2008, 05:07 PM

If a PAT or a FG attempt hits an upright and bounces back into the field of play, can it be advanced by the kicking team? If it is carried across the goalline by the kicking team, is it a TD,1-or-2 pt. PAT, or FG? If it is returned by the defense the other way, is it 2 pts or a TD?

VAMike

10-30-2008, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by bigwood33
FYI, it is not illegal to "horse collar" a QB behind the los.

Not completly true There is no foul if the QB is horse collared while he is "in the pocket". BUt there could be a foul if it was behind the LOS but not in tghe pocket

VAMike

10-30-2008, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Bullaholic
If a PAT or a FG attempt hits an upright and bounces back into the field of play, can it be advanced by the kicking team? If it is carried across the goalline by the kicking team, is it a TD,1-or-2 pt. PAT, or FG? If it is returned by the defense the other way, is it 2 pts or a TD?

Ball is dead as soon as it hits part of the upright If it continues on through the goalposts then it is a score (1 or 3 points) If it does not, it is dead No further advance possible

Drop kicks are legal and can be used as a FG/extra point kick.

Bullaholic

10-30-2008, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by VAMike
Ball is dead as soon as it hits part of the upright If it continues on through the goalposts then it is a score (1 or 3 points) If it does not, it is dead No further advance possible

Drop kicks are legal and can be used as a FG/extra point kick.

Now how am I going to run any of these trick questions by anybody with you around, VAMike? :D Actually, I appreciate what you do on the field and on this board in answering all of the rules questions.

I do have one question, though. Do any of the refs carry or have access to a written set of the rules during a game. Could an official call the chapter or other reliable source for rules reference if a copy wasn't handy? Or, do the officials make a ruling based on the cumulative knowledge of the refs calling the game?

Hope I am not boring you with all of this---these are just some random thoughts I had while sitting in front of the screen.

VAMike

10-30-2008, 05:48 PM

No self-respecting official will have a rulebook on the field but all will have one in their bag in the locker room That being said, nobody should delay the game to have a book brought out and referred to. In my 2d year of officiating I was in a 2A game with a bunch of experienced guys and we had a strange play. The referee did allow the game to be delayed while a rulebok was brought out It was a mess and was one of my lowest moments in officiating. In fact, as a result of that incident I swore myself to becoming a "rules guru" and have spent the last 18 years doing that. I will never have the kind of doubts that we had that night that motivated us to go to the book.

Bullaholic

10-30-2008, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by VAMike
No self-respecting official will have a rulebook on the field but all will have one in their bag in the locker room That being said, nobody should delay the game to have a book brought out and referred to. In my 2d year of officiating I was in a 2A game with a bunch of experienced guys and we had a strange play. The referee did allow the game to be delayed while a rulebok was brought out It was a mess and was one of my lowest moments in officiating. In fact, as a result of that incident I swore myself to becoming a "rules guru" and have spent the last 18 years doing that. I will never have the kind of doubts that we had that night that motivated us to go to the book.

God Bless you, sir. And, thanks.

banderafan

10-30-2008, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
at the high school level?

It must be a new rule. We (Bandera) have been flagged for horse collar tackles against both LaVernia and Devine.

ivchris

10-30-2008, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by pero chato
Well at least once. It was called against us (Wylie) when we played Brownwood.

It wouldn't have been had those Brownwood folks not had the zebras in their back pockets. :devil:

VAMike

10-30-2008, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by banderafan
It must be a new rule. We (Bandera) have been flagged for horse collar tackles against both LaVernia and Devine.

Rule is new this season

GetRDoneStangs

10-30-2008, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by VAMike
Rule is new this season

I thought...and ..I could be wrong....

If you grab the jersey it is ok...if you grab the shoulder pads...it is a penalty????

I may be wrong ...But I am not!!! Do not touch the pads!!!

GetRDoneStangs

10-30-2008, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by ivchris
It wouldn't have been had those Brownwood folks not had the zebras in their back pockets. :devil:

Be nice there.....that was the Abilene Chapter..they have ALL of the 2-3A games. .......Pecan Valley has none.....

That was a District Vote......they wanted the district...and the coaches wanted them!

Fact of the Matter is......the Abilene Chapter is COVERING the best games in the Big Country...no matter 5A. 4A, or 3A (and others I susspect)

VAMike

10-30-2008, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by GetRDoneStangs
I thought...and ..I could be wrong....

If you grab the jersey it is ok...if you grab the shoulder pads...it is a penalty????

I may be wrong ...But I am not!!! Do not touch the pads!!!

Rule says inside back or side collar of shoulder pads OR jersey

GetRDoneStangs

10-30-2008, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by VAMike
Rule says inside back or side collar of shoulder pads OR jersey

I have heard the jersey was legal this year....I am sure you know better!!!....Could you post the rule so I can educate others on this particular stuation???

Sweetwater Red

10-30-2008, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by VAMike
Rule is new this season

Thank you. I didn't think I had remembered it ever called before.

VAMike

10-30-2008, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by GetRDoneStangs
I have heard the jersey was legal this year....I am sure you know better!!!....Could you post the rule so I can educate others on this particular stuation???

9-1-2-p

p. All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the shoulder pads or jersey, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the runner down. This does not apply to a runner who is inside the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket.

ivchris

10-30-2008, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by GetRDoneStangs
Be nice there.....that was the Abilene Chapter..they have ALL of the 2-3A games. .......Pecan Valley has none.....

That was a District Vote......they wanted the district...and the coaches wanted them!

Fact of the Matter is......the Abilene Chapter is COVERING the best games in the Big Country...no matter 5A. 4A, or 3A (and others I susspect)

I was just kidding there (notice the little devil smiley?). I saw in one of the other posts back during the Wylie vs Brownwood week about the refs favoring Wylie so I had to throw it back at them.

LH Panther Mom

10-30-2008, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by VAMike
9-1-2-p

p. All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the shoulder pads or jersey, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the runner down. This does not apply to a runner who is inside the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket.

"immediately pulling the runner down"

I think that's what may lead to some confusion on what is officially a horse collar and what is legal. Ex: A defensive player could grab the horse collar or jersey, etc with the runner carrying him and it would not be considered an infraction. Is that correct?

GetRDoneStangs

10-30-2008, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by VAMike
9-1-2-p

p. All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the shoulder pads or jersey, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the runner down. This does not apply to a runner who is inside the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket.

Thanks Mike....it is good to know rullings when u are on the sidelines giving reports!!!The Jesey grab may only be the Pros????

VAMike

10-30-2008, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
"immediately pulling the runner down"

I think that's what may lead to some confusion on what is officially a horse collar and what is legal. Ex: A defensive player could grab the horse collar or jersey, etc with the runner carrying him and it would not be considered an infraction. Is that correct?

That is EXACTLY the HUGEST issue with this rule and the one that has caused the most problems. Defining what is immediate. It seems to be that if the runner is able to take even 1 step then it is NOT immediate and we are not to flag I do not think that is what the intent was when the rule was put in butthat is what we are being told

VAMike

10-30-2008, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by GetRDoneStangs
Thanks Mike....it is good to know rullings when u are on the sidelines giving reports!!!The Jesey grab may only be the Pros????

If you mean jersey other than the collar, maybe so as it is a foul even in NCAA to grab the jersey up by the collar and then immediately pull runner down

GetRDoneStangs

10-30-2008, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by ivchris
I was just kidding there (notice the little devil smiley?). I saw in one of the other posts back during the Wylie vs Brownwood week about the refs favoring Wylie so I had to throw it back at them.

No problem...I was trying to make a point about the fefs.....2-3A is getting the best of the Abilene chapter.......ther are excludive to ALL off the District games.....

take it as u want to.....Can u blame them????

LH Panther Mom

10-30-2008, 09:11 PM

It might make more sense (at least to me) if it were defined by direction instead of time. If the runner is pulled backward by the horse collar, inside of the jersey or shoulder pads, as opposed to forward - it seems more defined than "immediate".

VAMike

10-30-2008, 09:17 PM

Would not be surprised to see the rule tweaked in off season They even made a video for us before this season to try to help explain it and there is still confusion.