Question on school sizes...

[trojandad]

maybe someone can educate me.....we have had schools in our district that are shown by uil as having 700-900 students (depending on the year) and on those reporting years, i have picked up their yearbooks and counted up to 1,200+ students in the year they reported to uil only having a little over 700 students.....

does there exist some type of legal means that schools under report sizes? i've heard that seasonal students, such as migrant worker children, etc, don't count against school size to uil....thanks for any input.....

[nobogey72]

Originally posted by trojandad
maybe someone can educate me.....we have had schools in our district that are shown by uil as having 700-900 students (depending on the year) and on those reporting years, i have picked up their yearbooks and counted up to 1,200+ students in the year they reported to uil only having a little over 700 students.....

does there exist some type of legal means that schools under report sizes? i've heard that seasonal students, such as migrant worker children, etc, don't count against school size to uil....thanks for any input.....

I know at Wylie, they only make us count the boys.:D Seriously, I don't know how there could be that big a discrepancy. :thinking:

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by trojandad
maybe someone can educate me.....we have had schools in our district that are shown by uil as having 700-900 students (depending on the year) and on those reporting years, i have picked up their yearbooks and counted up to 1,200+ students in the year they reported to uil only having a little over 700 students.....

does there exist some type of legal means that schools under report sizes? i've heard that seasonal students, such as migrant worker children, etc, don't count against school size to uil....thanks for any input.....

there are some students that don't count or count as full students....but districts aren't going to hide kids...like people think they do....that numbers are how districts get state funding.

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by NastySlot
there are some students that don't count or count as full students....but districts aren't going to hide kids...like people think they do....that numbers are how districts get state funding.


also the incoming 8th graders don't count in the formula.

[trojandad]

well i know we count all 4 grades, males and females....and i also know the reporting to uil is different than the reporting to the education department for funding, i've been a part of the education department reporting but never the uil reporting......

[Looking4number8]

I would think if you have a real complaint this UIL web site would have a contact it.


http://www.uil.utexas.edu/


Good luck

[trojandad]

i did report the big discrepancy i spoke of.....the team "magically" went 4a the next year....an educator just told me at a game that there were exceptions that schools could use when reporting to uil, but when i asked for specifics, she didn't know them....just didn't know if it was another east texas football rumor....lol

if there were legal exceptions, like what the wylie guy spoke of, i'd like to know, obviously.....thanks

[NastySlot]

http://www.uil.utexas.edu/policy/pdf/08realign_procedures.pdf

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by trojandad
well i know we count all 4 grades, males and females....and i also know the reporting to uil is different than the reporting to the education department for funding, i've been a part of the education department reporting but never the uil reporting......


the numbers turn into state (TEA) are the same numbers used by UIL.......just the UIL uses a formula for its purposes...........its call the district Snap Shot.

[themsu97]

I can only attest to if the school is a new school... I spent last year at a brand new school... the first year it opened it only had fish and sophs... a total of 600 students... the next year it had 9-11th but doubled in population to 1200... now according to UIL last year for realignment they gave us the number of 1600... which put us at 4A, but right now the school has about 1800 students due to a high amount of move ins and transfers since the school is new... and in a nice area and the housing around the school is still being built... by next year, the school could have over 2000 students but still be a 4A

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by themsu97
I can only attest to if the school is a new school... I spent last year at a brand new school... the first year it opened it only had fish and sophs... a total of 600 students... the next year it had 9-11th but doubled in population to 1200... now according to UIL last year for realignment they gave us the number of 1600... which put us at 4A, but right now the school has about 1800 students due to a high amount of move ins and transfers since the school is new... and in a nice area and the housing around the school is still being built... by next year, the school could have over 2000 students but still be a 4A

Very often when a new school opens, it has problems competing for a few years. I don't think many fellow district members begrudge them having a few easier years before tackling larger schools. One exception was The Woodlands College Park which had its best year in it's first year of 5A competition.

Rudder and Canyon Lake are two examples of struggling competitors.

[Rocket]

Originally posted by trojandad
i did report the big discrepancy i spoke of.....the team "magically" went 4a the next year....an educator just told me at a game that there were exceptions that schools could use when reporting to uil, but when i asked for specifics, she didn't know them....just didn't know if it was another east texas football rumor....lol

if there were legal exceptions, like what the wylie guy spoke of, i'd like to know, obviously.....thanks

Refer all questions about all exceptions schools can use when reporting enrollment numbers to the UIL to the Abilene Wylie Administration Office. For a hefty fee, they will explain all the details. If you have a son that meets the requirements and want to move to Abilene Wylie, they will waive the nominal fee.

[Looking4number8]

Dang Rocket, you beat me to the punch. I was about to say if you have any questions, call Nb72... He seems to have to have all the info on wyllie and wylie seems to have all the info on enrollemts..

[nobogey72]

Originally posted by Rocket
Refer all questions about all exceptions schools can use when reporting enrollment numbers to the UIL to the Abilene Wylie Administration Office. For a hefty fee, they will explain all the details. If you have a son that meets the requirements and want to move to Abilene Wylie, they will waive the nominal fee.


WRONG!!!! We never waive the fee. If the kid is good enough, we WILL let them pay it out by the month, you know.... kind of like you do your microwave.:taunt:

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by NastySlot
the numbers turn into state (TEA) are the same numbers used by UIL.......just the UIL uses a formula for its purposes...........its call the district Snap Shot.

Actually the "snap shot" you're referring to is used by TEA. There are (I think) 3 days during the year when the district takes a "snap shot". The number of students actually present that day is the number used to calculate what kind of money you get from the government since the government pays money by the student. If you happen to have a flu epidemic or a stomach bug going around on PEIMS day (which is the snap shot day), you're basically hosed.

As to what numbers UIL uses, I wouldn't have the foggiest idea.

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by BullsFan
Actually the "snap shot" you're referring to is used by TEA. There are (I think) 3 days during the year when the district takes a "snap shot". The number of students actually present that day is the number used to calculate what kind of money you get from the government since the government pays money by the student. If you happen to have a flu epidemic or a stomach bug going around on PEIMS day (which is the snap shot day), you're basically hosed.

As to what numbers UIL uses, I wouldn't have the foggiest idea.

they use the snap shot numbers.

[trojandad]

because of my past with the school district, however, i know for a fact that on the last district reclassification, our tea number was smaller by sweveral dozen than our uil number, so that makes no sense to me....

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by trojandad
because of my past with the school district, however, i know for a fact that on the last district reclassification, our tea number was smaller by sweveral dozen than our uil number, so that makes no sense to me....


look for verification i went and asked our assist.. supt. here....the uil will use the same numbers.......but remember the uil will use a different formula and also there are certain students with disabilities that can be subtracted for the uil formula.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by nobogey72
WRONG!!!! We never waive the fee. If the kid is good enough, we WILL let them pay it out by the month, you know.... kind of like you do your microwave.:taunt:

Now THAT was a good one!!:thumbsup: :2thumbsup :D

[trojandad]

now your back to my original question, i was told by a school board member in a neighboring town that there existed subtractions to the student body numbers that uil would accept, but i haven't been able to find out from this board member, or anyone else, any exceptions except that some seasonal students, such as children of migrant workers aren't counted....thats the first i've heard on disabled students but i'll look into that...

i have just always thought it funny that, for instance, corrigan has always been 2a and, because of my work, i'm aware of their population, school counts, economic base, etc, and they are so many times larger than us in so many ways.....for those who haven't been thru our small town, we're a bedroom community with zero commerce, absolutely no fast food (not enough population to support one) and made up of second homes on the lake with 70 driving miles from one end of the school district to the other....its a great place to raise kids but competing athletically with towns with several car dealerships, banks on top of banks, etc is just a joke....i just always thought corrigan knew how to report their numbers to their advantage....

[All out CAT]

Originally posted by trojandad
now your back to my original question, i was told by a school board member in a neighboring town that there existed subtractions to the student body numbers that uil would accept, but i haven't been able to find out from this board member, or anyone else, any exceptions except that some seasonal students, such as children of migrant workers aren't counted....thats the first i've heard on disabled students but i'll look into that...

i have just always thought it funny that, for instance, corrigan has always been 2a and, because of my work, i'm aware of their population, school counts, economic base, etc, and they are so many times larger than us in so many ways.....for those who haven't been thru our small town, we're a bedroom community with zero commerce, absolutely no fast food (not enough population to support one) and made up of second homes on the lake with 70 driving miles from one end of the school district to the other....its a great place to raise kids but competing athletically with towns with several car dealerships, banks on top of banks, etc is just a joke....i just always thought corrigan knew how to report their numbers to their advantage....

yea, they may be doing the count one Sat. nights when Sundance is open.

[ccmom]

Originally posted by nobogey72
WRONG!!!! We never waive the fee. If the kid is good enough, we WILL let them pay it out by the month, you know.... kind of like you do your microwave.:taunt:

Bravo! Some of your best work...:clap:

[trojandad]

too dang funny.........especially since sundance is a church now....ROFL.....

[All out CAT]

Originally posted by trojandad
too dang funny.........especially since sundance is a church now....ROFL.....

Wow! I guess things change when you leave for over 10 years. Used to spend a month of Saturdays there.

[trojandad]

didn't we all.....didn't we all........lol

[Necks_Fan]

Originally posted by trojandad
we have had schools in our district that are shown by uil as having 700-900 students and on those reporting years, i have picked up their yearbooks and counted up to 1,200+ students in the year they reported to uil only having a little over 700 students..... I'm going to have to call crap on that one.


1. There is WAY too big of a discrepancy.

2. Schools get their funding from the population sizes, so why would they intentionally "hide" students?


3. Even if they did "hide" students, they could never get away with "hiding" nealry half the student body.

4. IF they did "hide" and got away with it that year...... the UIL found out and they went 4A the next year with no repurcussions?




Sounds like bogus to me. :hand:

[trojandad]

ill tell you what, i was floored when it happened, too....

but i said it like i said it because the proof is out there for anyone to see, all the teams in our area in the recent past have their numbers listed with uil and their yearbooks are available at their schools....

never said they did or didn't get "repurcussions"...

not many schools in our area went to 4a after being 3a locally, so that narrows it down a lot....

was tryin to make a point without calling a school out because i've found several counts that didn't come close with their yearbook counts, am just truly ignorant on how some schools do a better job of missing their yearbook counts with uil, cause we are nauseatingly accurate for some ignorant reason....


as for being crap, i appreciate not calling me a worse name i'm prolly more deservant of for lesser reasons....lol.....but whatever you think about me or my truthfulness, just please don't get into it so rough that it causes one of the moderators to shut this string down because i'm really hoping to get more educated on this subject.....thanks

[Necks_Fan]

Originally posted by trojandad
ill tell you what, i was floored when it happened, too....

but i said it like i said it because the proof is out there for anyone to see, all the teams in our area in the recent past have their numbers listed with uil and their yearbooks are available at their schools....

never said they did or didn't get "repurcussions"...

not many schools in our area went to 4a after being 3a locally, so that narrows it down a lot....

was tryin to make a point without calling a school out because i've found several counts that didn't come close with their yearbook counts, am just truly ignorant on how some schools do a better job of missing their yearbook counts with uil, cause we are nauseatingly accurate for some ignorant reason....


as for being crap, i appreciate not calling me a worse name i'm prolly more deservant of for lesser reasons....lol.....but whatever you think about me or my truthfulness, just please don't get into it so rough that it causes one of the moderators to shut this string down because i'm really hoping to get more educated on this subject.....thanks I'm by no means trying to get into a personal matter, I just don't think there is anyway possible that a school could mis count nealry 500 students and us not have heard anything about it.

Just doens't sound right, either you have wrong info (Yrbk, Uil #'s,) or I just don't know what to make of this.

[trojandad]

what really peeves me about this is that i know our school growing up didn't take yearbook pics of nearly all the kids in our class, either for absenses, families couldn't afford them, shyness, etc. and i doubt seriously we were unusual that way. when one considers that, even with these missing pictures, the yearbook counts STILL exceeds uil counts in those cases really makes one wonder how off the counts truly are....

now, before sour grapes is called, if celina hasn't taught us anything it's that the smallest teams in 3a can make the most noise, and we were one of the smallest teams in 92 and 96 when we made statewide noise, so i don't think the counts make us win or lose, for sure....

and i didn't want to say it before, but the uil counts are not what tea pays on, or vice versa....tea pays a per diem (per day) on the number of days a student attends school, which is one reason (but not the only reason) you will see a school close down when they have a severe cold or flu moving through, they wait until days happen that kids will be at school....tea keeps the count that uil has and uses it to consider schools for grants, recognition, etc on these numbers, but not for funds paid to schools, that's a day by day number....

[LH Panther Mom]

Is it possible that the enrollment was affected by some catastrophy? I know with the last 3 big hurricanes (Katrina, Rita & Ike) concessions were made with UIL so that kids could attend school. I think they counted as 1/2 students, if I remember right. :thinking:

[trojandad]

i haven't done a count since 2005, the year of katrina or rita...those times could cause some miscounts though, good idea, i'll look at that, for sure....

rita does remind me of how our silly superintendent at the time worked so hard against our poor athletes, both boys and girls....after rita, everyone in the district got together once school started back and the superintendents and head coaches agreed that since school was put back by two weeks, they all would hold off two weeks before reporting grades and, likewise, reporting kids not passing to stay out of competitions (uil allowed this exception as well by memo to these schools so it was legal) .....our head coach told me that on the way home that our super told him that our school was going to go ahead and evaluate our kids grades and count as ineligible our failing players a full two weeks before anyone in our district....for those of you that wondered why our coach at the time won only three and one games over two seasons only to go to an unranked hearne team the following year and go four levels deep in the playoffs....cooperation like that from the old regime here sure didn't help....

weren't very good times around here for awhile.....thank God for a change....

[BullsFan]

Originally posted by trojandad
tea pays on, or vice versa....tea pays a per diem (per day) on the number of days a student attends school, which is one reason (but not the only reason) you will see a school close down when they have a severe cold or flu moving through, they wait until days happen that kids will be at school....tea keeps the count that uil has and uses it to consider schools for grants, recognition, etc on these numbers, but not for funds paid to schools, that's a day by day number....

I don't think so, those snap shot days for us doesn't mean anything to UIL or have anything to do with our classification as 3A or 4A. For us, it means money. The calculations for how much money our district gets are based on the number of children present during the snap shot days.

[fourbeee]

TEA funds districts based on the average daily attendance (ADA). It is not a snap shot. Also different students have a weight added to them, another words if you have a regular special ed student, that student might count 1.2 times or if the student is a severely mentally and phyically handicapped student, it could count 2.5 times. The UIL uses a snap shop date in October and counts the students in grades 8-11 in the district. A district could have 975 students on the snap shot day and when school opens in the fall it could have 1300. The school would still be 3A until the next realingnment. Everything else is just conspiracy theory.

[trojandad]

that's what i've seen, four....as far as the conspiracy theory, i don't really care what count anyone uses, but when it isn't rock solid and can't have a number that anyone could verify, it just starts smelling of "professional" people validating their jobs when using a similar, trustworthy number that one governmental agency has already used our dollars to assemble has been computed....

besides, the 2000 vote showed us that very reasonable people are right to have doubts when a door is closed and chads are counted...(and no sour grapes here, my guy won....lol)...

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by four
TEA funds districts based on the average daily attendance (ADA). It is not a snap shot. Also different students have a weight added to them, another words if you have a regular special ed student, that student might count 1.2 times or if the student is a severely mentally and phyically handicapped student, it could count 2.5 times. The UIL uses a snap shop date in October and counts the students in grades 8-11 in the district. A district could have 975 students on the snap shot day and when school opens in the fall it could have 1300. The school would still be 3A until the next realingnment. Everything else is just conspiracy theory.

ok so what is the difference in ADA numbers and Snap Shot....like i said earlier spoke with our assist. supt...this weekend and brought it up......was told the numbers turned into TEA were the same as those used by UIL............UIL then uses a different formula for it's purposes...............when are the ADA numbers taken and when are the Snap Shot numbers taken?

[NastySlot]

hey wasn't there an article in DC Texas Football....I thought I might have skimmed through it at Walmart one night...and saw an article about Realignment and Reclassification....maybe it has some helpful info....idk.

[fourbeee]

The ADA is not one day. It is an average for the year. Each students attendance is turned in to PEIMS on a daily basis and an average is taken for the students attendance for a school year. These numbers used to be done by hand and now are done by computer. The UIL figures are totally different. ADA is a total number for a district where the UIL number is for individual campus. Money is allocated for districts based on numbers EC-12 while UIL numbers are 8-11 for individual high schools. So you can see where a district like Lewisville ISD with 5 high schools, the ADA of the district would have no bearing on the UIL. In fact there might be only 10,000 students, but weighted ADA might show the district with 10,500 students. UIL is based on the number of students enrolled in 8th grade for all the feeder schools, or the only jr high, or multiple jr highs thru 11th grade. If you have districts that have alternative or DAEP schools with their on TEA numbers, those students might not be counted. Then if that particular student was released from one of those campus after the snap shot date, then numbers might be skewed.
I am not saying that a district would purposely hide students that way, but their are folks out that claim this happens, when only a few kids make the difference whether a school goes from 2A to 3A and so on. If a district/s gets caught hiding the kids, the penalties are very severe, not only by the UIL but under the Texas Family code, persons doing this could be sent to jail or fined or both. If you guys want to contact me by my private email, I will tell you how I know this and how you can turn someone or a district in if you think this is happening.

[trojandad]

have learned a lot here, good suggestions....never once heard the numbers might be 8-11 grades....i had counted 9-12 in the past but that would make sense....in most schools that would increase numbers a lot from just counting 9-12, i know it would in our school....

to your question, ada's are just that, daily averages, its why (one reason) schools keep daily attendances, in other words, daily snapshots, not just two snapshots, or attendance counts, in a year....thats the only difference...if two schools have the exact same registered number of students and one school has 10% less absenteeism in their daily attendance than the other school, that school will receive 10% more funding than the other, no matter what their registered attendance is, that much i know for a fact because there have been lawsiuts against the state for underpayment to school districts and those payment descriptions are part of legal record and in all printed lawbooks on that subject....

so however teachers, superintendents, or anyone think about how schools are paid and on what counts, if one doesn't tell the truth in court on how schools are paid and on what numbers, they fix up a nice little cell for your fibs....lol....those cases describing those court cases and how students are counted can be found in any law library which can be found in the reference center of any college or larger city library....

[NastySlot]

ok since we are coming up on the final friday in oct....which is the day i believe the snapshot is turned in......which is not ADA right?....it is the true enrollment used.????

[fourbeee]

The snap shot used in October is not used for funding it is used for the lever provision for completion rate for High Schools and is done every year. ADA means what it means Average Daily Attendance. How can you get an average daily attendance on one days of attendance.

[fourbeee]

The snap shot date was October 24th.

[fourbeee]

On October 24th, only those students enrolled in high school, grades 9-12 are counted. Those students who were enrolled in the spring and didn't return are listed as levers and counted against the Districts completion rate unless those students are accounted for somewhere else, ie, moved to another district, another state, etc. This rate, if below 75% could cause a district or a campus to be academically unacceptable, which has nothing to do with UIL enrollment, but could eventually hurt ADA funding. 8th grade students attendance is counted in the drop-out rate.

[NastySlot]

ok thanks....i will send you a pm.

[BullsFan]

Well my opinion of the knowledge base of the downlow has just increased greatly. :clap: :clap: :clap:

What significance of snap shots at the Elementary School level?

[fourbeee]

None what so ever.

[trojandad]

don't feel alone, bulls, i never understood the elementary counts either, other than tea has a form for a required count, but for what? i give up...

[BullsFan]

Well, I can't honestly say I'm too surprised that TEA has pointless paperwork.

[fourbeee]

The reason TEA ask for counts once a year is to make sure that the 22-1 teacher/pupil ratio in grades K-4 is being adhered to. If not, there are schools that would put 30 kids in those classes. The schools that are over those ratios, would be able to apply for a waiver to justify being out of compliance. The paper work is there to protect the kids and is not just useless busy work to give districts something to do. All of those type of requirements aren't things that the TEA sets around and dreams up. Those things are dreamed up by the state legislatlure, then mandated to the TEA to inforce those madates. The TEA is just the messenger (the regulatory agency) not the law maker. That would be like blaming the state trooper for enforcing speeding. The DPS doesn't make the laws, the just enforce the law.

[fourbeee]

I would agree there seems to be paperwork which comes from the TEA to school districts that on the surface looks to be without any practical purpose. But in this particular instance, this is a protective device for students. Once again "Bulls Fan" if you would like to know how and where I am getting my information, pm me and will give you the skinny.

[BullsFan]

We already do class counts every grading period for the purpose of determining both teacher-student and teacher-classroom ratio. And it's not just this particular instance where I think TEA has gone a little overboard. But this isn't the time and the place for that discussion. :)