3 officiating questions

[JasperDog94]

#1 - Is a horse collar tackle legal in high school ball?

#2 - Is a block below the knees legal in high school ball?

#3 - A player runs for a first down. A penalty is called 2 yards beyond the first down marker moving the ball back behind the first down marker. Since the penalty was called beyond the first down marker, should that be a first down and 10 after the penalty or do they move the ball 8 yards behind the first down marker and repeat the down?

[JR2004]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
#3 - A player runs for a first down. A penalty is called 2 yards beyond the first down marker moving the ball back behind the first down marker. Since the penalty was called beyond the first down marker, should that be a first down and 10 after the penalty or do they move the ball 8 yards behind the first down marker and repeat the down?

It would be 10 yards from the spot I believe. So if the penalty was 2 yards beyond the first down marker it'd be moved back 10 yards and you'd be left still needing 8 yards for a first.

[sinton66]

#2 is illegal in High School.

[Trashman]

#1 is illegal in High School.

[VAMike]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
#1 - Is a horse collar tackle legal in high school ball?

#2 - Is a block below the knees legal in high school ball?

#3 - A player runs for a first down. A penalty is called 2 yards beyond the first down marker moving the ball back behind the first down marker. Since the penalty was called beyond the first down marker, should that be a first down and 10 after the penalty or do they move the ball 8 yards behind the first down marker and repeat the down?

Horse collar tackles were made illegal this season. But just what a horse collar tackle is or is not makes this a difficult call at times.

Sometimes a block below the knees is legal and sometimes it is not. Depends on if block is from the front or behind, when did it happen, who did it, and where it happened.

The last answer is also a "depends". Depends on the foul.
Ex:
A - 1st and 10 at your own 30. Your runner makes 20 yards to the 50 but there is a holding by one of your team at the 42. The holding is enforced from the 42 to the 32 and the down is repeated so it will be 1st and 8.
B - 1st and 10 at your own 30. Your runner makes 20 yards to the 50 but there is a late hit by someone of your team at the 42 after the runner is tackled. The 1st down was gained but the penalty will be enforced before the chains are moved. So your team will be marched backwards from the 50 to the 35 but it will be a new 1st and 10 from there.

If this was easy anyone could do it. ;)

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by VAMike
Horse collar tackles were made illegal this season. But just what a horse collar tackle is or is not makes this a difficult call at times.

Sometimes a block below the knees is legal and sometimes it is not. Depends on if block is from the front or behind, when did it happen, who did it, and where it happened.

The last answer is also a "depends". Depends on the foul.
Ex:
A - 1st and 10 at your own 30. Your runner makes 20 yards to the 50 but there is a holding by one of your team at the 42. The holding is enforced from the 42 to the 32 and the down is repeated so it will be 1st and 8.
B - 1st and 10 at your own 30. Your runner makes 20 yards to the 50 but there is a late hit by someone of your team at the 42 after the runner is tackled. The 1st down was gained but the penalty will be enforced before the chains are moved. So your team will be marched backwards from the 50 to the 35 but it will be a new 1st and 10 from there.

If this was easy anyone could do it. ;) Thanks Mike.

The horse collar tackle couldn't have been more obvious. Our player was running towards the endzone and there was only one guy that had a shot at him. The official was right there when he pulled him down by the back of his collar. This was right in front of our bench and our coaching staff went nuts when there was no flag thrown.

As far as the blocking below the knees, every time we were chasing their QB, someone would try to take out our defender at his knees or lower. Most of the time it was from the front, but several times it was from the side.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Thanks Mike.

The horse collar tackle couldn't have been more obvious. Our player was running towards the endzone and there was only one guy that had a shot at him. The official was right there when he pulled him down by the back of his collar. This was right in front of our bench and our coaching staff went nuts when there was no flag thrown.

As far as the blocking below the knees, every time we were chasing their QB, someone would try to take out our defender at his knees or lower. Most of the time it was from the front, but several times it was from the side.
On the horse collar, maybe I made this up or dreamed it, but I understood that it was (or can be) determined by the length of time that the neck of the collar is yanked on.

[3afan]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
On the horse collar, maybe I made this up or dreamed it, but I understood that it was (or can be) determined by the length of time that the neck of the collar is yanked on.

you're not dreaming ... its not black & white

[sinton66]

In the Sinton-Hebbronville game, Hebbronville was called a couple of times for blocking low. The ones I saw were from the side. They also scored on the second play of the game because the first one that happened wasn't called.

If "chop" blocks aren't exactly illegal, they should be. That's a good way to tear kids' knees up in my opinion.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
On the horse collar, maybe I made this up or dreamed it, but I understood that it was (or can be) determined by the length of time that the neck of the collar is yanked on. Well in this case the kid pulled him to the ground by his collar. When the official didn't throw the flag I questioned whether that rule was in place for high school ball.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Well in this case the kid pulled him to the ground by his collar. When the official didn't throw the flag I questioned whether that rule was in place for high school ball.
I understood that. Here's a pretty good explanation about halfway down the thread (by CenTexSports). Sounds like I blew (or dreamed) the "time" angle. :doh:

rule changes (http://bbs.3adownlow.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=84748)

[Rabid Cougar]

Originally posted by sinton66

If "chop" blocks aren't exactly illegal, they should be. That's a good way to tear kids' knees up in my opinion.

"Chop Blocks" are illegal. Example: OT engages a DE up high and at TE or RB comes in low and cuts DE legs.

A lineman can cut pretty much anybody as long as it is from the front. They can even cut them from behind if it is in the pocket.

A WR cannot come from the outside and take out LB's , DL or SS by cutting them. That is "blocking below the waist " the same call if it was on a Kickoff,Punt or INT return/

[Emerson1]

You have to be pulled down IMMEDIATELY on the horse collar for it to be a penalty. It's not like the NFL where if you barely touch the collar it's a penalty.

[sinton66]

Originally posted by Rabid Cougar
"Chop Blocks" are illegal. Example: OT engages a DE up high and at TE or RB comes in low and cuts DE legs.

A lineman can cut pretty much anybody as long as it is from the front. They can even cut them from behind if it is in the pocket.

A WR cannot come from the outside and take out LB's , DL or SS by cutting them. That is "blocking below the waist " the same call if it was on a Kickoff,Punt or INT return/

The ones I saw called were on a run to the wide side. DB's legs were cut so the back could get past them. Might have been another back or tight end doing the cutting, not sure.

[TigerFan51]

Another issue...it is not EVER legal for an offensive player to grab the jersey of a defender much less pull them toward them so that they can plant their helmet in the stomach of the defender, right? I didn't think an offensive player was to ever grab and hold onto the jersey of a defensive player but maybe I'm just stupid.

It really makes a player wonder about the officials when said player overhears one ref saying to another ref...did you see number so-and-so, referring to said offensive player, and the other ref says, "yes" and nothing is done about it.

[mistanice]

Originally posted by JasperDog94


As far as the blocking below the knees, every time we were chasing their QB, someone would try to take out our defender at his knees or lower. Most of the time it was from the front, but several times it was from the side.

In the 4 games I've seen them play in, it seems like they throw these blocks often when the Qb is out of the pocket, scrambling. It's never been called as far as I know. Those blocks were by OL.

Good luck the rest of the way!

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by mistanice
In the 4 games I've seen them play in, it seems like they throw these blocks often when the Qb is out of the pocket, scrambling. It's never been called as far as I know. Those blocks were by OL.

Good luck the rest of the way!

I wasn't sure about the blocks. That's why I asked. I'm still not please with the refs. I thought they were terrible.

That said, Diboll was the better team last night. Good luck to you guys as well. Maybe Jasper can score more than 14 next week. This makes 3 straight weeks that we've scored exactly 14.:doh:

[GreenMonster]

Originally posted by sinton66
In the Sinton-Hebbronville game, Hebbronville was called a couple of times for blocking low.

Now, the rule pertaining to ILLEGAL chop blocks was revised this year as well. This is what is probably being called. An ILLEGAL chop block is essentially a high-low block. These have been illegal in the past, but were allowed if the contact was simultaneous or very close to simulatneous, ie a guard and tackle blocking together on the same play at the relative same time, etc for other linemen side-by-side. This year, that rule was changed. It is legal to block low-low (at or below the mid-point of the hip) or high-high (above the mid-point of the hip), but at no time is it legal for one player to be blocking at or below the mid-point of the hip and any teammate of said blocker to be above the mid-point of the hip on the same block of the same defensive player. This rule was changed due to the high number of teams using a zone blocking scheme where the first blocker would essentially hold up the defender long enough for the next blocker to clip (block low from behind) the defender before proceding up field to the next level to cut off a linebacker. It was becoming common practice to use this clip as it was, and still is, a legal block. Only now the first player cannot hold up the defender so the clip part of this block basically becomes an impossible block if the defender is taught to engage the first offensive player. It is a safety issue. It is a good rule. O-line coaches hate it, and D-line coaches love it.

[VAMike]

LH Panther Mom is correct on the "time" part of the horse collar rule. The player being tackled must be IMMEDIATELY brought to the ground by the tackle for it to be a foul. If the players go for a yard or so before going down, even if still by the collar (side or back), it is NOT a foul. Take a look at this video and "you make the call" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODCJ9_vmQb4


The low block from the front or side is going to be legal most of the time. The exceptions are as noted by some already. Such blocks are not legal in HS football in the 48 states that do not use NCAA rules.