Poll a real joke again this year!

[Old Cardinal]

I looked in the paper this morning and out of 42 players on the 1st and 2nd team all state team, Region III had two players....Stephen Hutchinson, Elgin-1st team, and Chance Kolacek, Hillsboro-2nd team. Now what is pathetic, is that 28 of the 42 So-called All Staters came from teams that did not even advance to the top eight in either Division I or II...What an injustice to the players from the 16 teams that worked so hard to climb the brackets. There are teams with so-so seasons that placed 2 & 3 players on this political Poll. My question is-if all of these 28 are so great why did their teams not advance a ways in the playoffs?

[Jacket2000]

Old Card, great players and great teams do not always go hand in hand. Forney and Gainesville are great examples.
G'ville had talent across the board but lost to two teams that had much less talent and only advanced to the area round. Forney, on the other hand, has maybe one player that will play college(and it will be D2 or D3 at the most) and they advanced to the semifinals and gave Everman quite a scare.
J2K

[Keith7]

I wouldnt say we lost to teams with far less talent.. Ross Roby from Celina is going to Arkansas, and Drew Stubbs from Atlanta is going to Texas..

[big daddy russ]

You also have to remember, sometimes it's the players around those two or three that make the difference. A team is made up of 22 different positions, and there's no way two or three guys can play them all. Also, they look at regular season stats a whole lot for that stuff, so if someone ran for 1,700 yards he's going to get some votes whether he was on a good team or not.

[Old Cardinal]

I am sure that if I pulled for Commerce, Gainesville or Ingleside, I too could create logic out of this dispicable political situation.

[big daddy russ]

Old Cardinal:
I am sure that if I pulled for Commerce, Gainesville or Ingleside, I too could create logic out of this dispicable political situation.LOL, maybe. Ingleside's a powerhouse you know.

[Chief Woodman]

Old Card it is true- football is a team sport, but this poll is recognizing INDIVIDUALS. The two are not the same. For example Bridgeport placed 4 players on the all-state squad. But as a team they unfortunately were not as good. Dauhgrty, who is an excellent individual, could not carry the entire offence every game. (He also NEVER won a district championship, due to the lack of talent around him). Against Decatur he was held to a performance of 150 yds passing and 3 INT. Krebbs, the outstanding reciever, was held to 4 miniscule catches. Rommines, the all state linebacker had a total of 4 tackles. But when they had a bad night, the rest of the team lacked the talent to win the game. Dispite this, Decatur who spread their offence and defense around MANY players, placed only one individual on the state roster. This does not speak well of the individuals which is what this award is about, but it does speak well of them as a TEAM.

[slpybear the bullfan]

Old Card, I have some questions for you...

Do only teams that make the playoffs deserve to be picked for these types of Polls? How far do they need to go to be picked?

Using this logic, we wouldn't say Vincent Tucker of Diamond Hill Jarvis should have made it to the teams, even though he ran for 2252 yds and 25 touchdowns. Those are great numbers from a great player. Or also, by using that logic you could just avoid worrying about individual performance for individual awards and just vote in the starting lineups for the state champs.

I think we all agree that individual awards for team sports recognize the individual performance of the players named. For something like All-State awards about the only way you measure this is look at regular season stats. I do agree that the coaches have a lot better position to base their voting on.

Also important to remember is that really outstanding players very rarely are surrounded by a whole team of really outstanding players. When they are, you call those teams special. But when they aren't, those individuals still ARE special.

Yeah, I am a homer on the Bridgeport picks, but even my esteemed colleague from arch-rival Decatur, ChiefWoodsman, can agree that Daugherty was a Special QB and might have done greater things had he been surrounded by more talent, (like winning one of those District Championships that you pointed out Phillip NEVER won... wink ...). Just because Phillip, or Joeseph Krebs, or Caleb Hurd, or Vincent Tucker of DH-Jarvis, or Jon Lopez of Gainesville didn't play on a final 16 or 8 team doesn't diminish their achievements.

Those teams that win a district, area, region or higher championship ARE recognized for their team's win. With a district, area, region, semifinal or final team trophy.

Just my $.02

[Old Cardinal]

I personally think Bridgeport and the 4 so-called All Staters don't deserve anything-they were just a middle-of-the-road team. Let's take Jasper for example- Jorrie Adams, Red Bryant, Will Byerly,and several others are better that anyone Bridgeport or Decatur put on the field. Jasper is just too far from DFW, however!

[slpybear the bullfan]

Old Cardinal:
I personally think Bridgeport and the 4 so-called All Staters don't deserve anything-they were just a middle-of-the-road team. Let's take Jasper for example- Jorrie Adams, Red Bryant, Will Byerly,and several others are better that anyone Bridgeport or Decatur put on the field. Jasper is just too far from DFW, however!OK Card, I guess you didn't get my point. But just for grins, I'll play... what were the stats on the QB from Jasper? Do you think he was a better player than the kid from Bridgeport?

[Keith7]

After playing against P.D. from Bridgeport, I think he deserves all state.. There was definently not another QB in 3A as good as him

[turbostud]

What does DFW have to do with it? Jasper is in the Houston area as Bridgeport is in the DFW area. Is DFW the only area where the votes come from?

[BigBrother70]

Old Cardinal

I will agree with you, I want to know why the BC Running back and Quarterback weren't on there.

[JASPER- GYM]

turbostud:
What does DFW have to do with it? Jasper is in the Houston area as Bridgeport is in the DFW area. Is DFW the only area where the votes come from?No not even close, 3 hours at best, and neither the Houston papers or tv stations cover us. I watched ch 13 out of Houston after we beat BC in the dome and they didnt even post a score. They will cover sinton before Jasper.

[Bulldog Fan]

I for one find it incredible that not one Jasper player was named to the AP all state first or second teams. How strange that Jorrie Adams is the #20 most sought after high school recruit in the NATION and can't even make it to the all state team. Furthermore, he has been named the 3A player of the year and will play in the All American Bowl. Wow. That is quite an honor and it is a disgrace that he was slighted in the AP Poll. frown

[j_dog]

Bulldog Fan:
I for one find it incredible that not one Jasper player was named to the AP all state first or second teams. How strange that Jorrie Adams is the #20 most sought after high school recruit in the NATION and can't even make it to the all state team. Furthermore, he has been named the 3A player of the year and will play in the All American Bowl. Wow. That is quite an honor and it is a disgrace that he was slighted in the AP Poll. :( Ditto to that! It is not like the AP voters could not have heard of Jorrie, or Red Bryant also. Both were on just about everyone's "top 25 senior prospects" including Rivals and UT. That is for ALL classes and privates in Texas! And they proved their worth with their play. And they only get "honorable mention" by AP for all-state. I guess either AP, or the recruiting services must be incredibly stupid.

I am sure that many deserving players also got slighted, as BC's Peebles for example, but those two from Jasper are the smoking gun against the AP as far as I am concerned.

About Jorrie, and the 3a player of the year. Are you referring to his being selected as the Gatorade player of the year? I saw one or two sentences in the Houston Chronicle to that effect but no other mention anywhere. I have no idea what that honor encompasses. Can anyone please fill in the details please?

<small>[ December 21, 2002, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: j_dog ]</small>

[slpybear the bullfan]

Yeah, I too want to chime in on the Jorrie Adams omission. As has been mentioned, I am one of those D/FW area guys. I don't know a lot about every area of the state, but I have read a lot of news items on Jorrie Addams and what a hot prospect he is. It is pretty amazing that he isn't listed...

[Matthew328]

Guys the team is voted on by the Associated Press from all over the state...there are over 300 members of the panel that vote...ohh well...anytime you deal with Old Card it is a DFW conspiracy..LOL wink

[big daddy russ]

You know, Adams did impress me quite a bit and I thought he should have made the team. Just my personal opinion. However, he might not have graded out as well as some of the other linemen, might not have had as many pancakes, etc. These votes aren't made exclusively in the DFW area, you know. They are made at every newspaper that is affiliated with the Associated Press across the state. There are more than 30 of those in Texas. I think Jasper is within an hour of Beaumont, Lufkin, Huntsville and Nacogdoches... those papers probably had you covered. Aransas Pass and Sinton, on the other hand, had only Corpus Christi within an hour's drive (Victoria is about an hour and a half) and they still placed several players on the list. AP had two on the list and Sinton had three including the Defensive Player of the Year. They simply had better stats.

[Old Cardinal]

Yes Matthew, I think it is a conspiricy-everyone knows it's picked like a fraudulent Little League All-Star team..... "You vote for my son and I will vote for yours." I think that Jasper was omitted because they are new to 3A's politics and no AP pollsters had them on the trade-off list to assure that they all get their "little darlings" an All-State honor. The 16 teams that climbed to the top of Div. I&II had a lot of players that should have been recognized, for individual honors, over players with a little above average skill, on losing teams. I like the bracket system, it keeps the politics out of who is really worth-their-salt in the 3A ranks. It's the only thing going that is not controlled by adult politicians mainly in the DFW area or those that play footsy with them, to get their "little darlings" touted also!

[pinecone]

I don't know much about all-state polls, but everytime one comes out and Joseph Bryant of Jasper is not on it, I will say again that polls are meaningless. What good does it do to check out stats when players on really good teams may play only half a game because the score is so lopsided. Players on a team that struggles to win and are played the whole game then have equal to or better stats. Only someone very familiar with a team knows how to compensate when they vote. Some kid made the team with 13 sacks. Heck, Bryant probably had that many in one game. If he had been allowed to play in the 2nd half against Huntington, he would have had about 20 sacks in that game, but of course the competition is at such a low level in East Texas that our stats don't count as much. :rolleyes:

What I really wanted to address in this post is the comments about AP writers from Lufin, Nacogdoches, Beaumont, Houston, and Huntsville covering Jasper. NOT SO! They only mention Jasper if we play their hometown teams. First game of the season it was Jasper 25, PortNeches-Groves 0. The Beaumont Enterprise did not even carry the score, much less a write-up. Like the game did not happen. Huntsville and Houston are too far away to be expected to carry Jasper stories. Lufkin does not consider Jasper sports of interest to it's small town readership. Nacogdoches is 80 mi and is north of Lufkin. We played Nac. and beat them by a lopsided score, but so did everyone else, so nothing impressive there. If its all in location, we aren't close to anyone except Lousiana. Added to that we are an unknown to 3A and only respected by some Beaumont area teams like Bridge City who have a history with us from 4A.

We are not media darlings. We have had to defend ourselves against the news media for a few years now.(Not football related.) Hopefully they are not slighting our kids. But, as far as Bryant goes, I think it was an oversight. Has to be, no other explanation holds up for anyone who has seen him play. I've seen great players come and go for years here in Jasper(some all-state honored), and he is up there at the top. I hope he reads this and knows he has fans here that belive in him. And to the guys that made the AP team, congratulations and best wishes.

[Bulldog Fan]

j_dog:

Bulldog Fan:
I for one find it incredible that not one Jasper player was named to the AP all state first or second teams. How strange that Jorrie Adams is the #20 most sought after high school recruit in the NATION and can't even make it to the all state team. Furthermore, he has been named the 3A player of the year and will play in the All American Bowl. Wow. That is quite an honor and it is a disgrace that he was slighted in the AP Poll. :( Ditto to that! It is not like the AP voters could not have heard of Jorrie, or Red Bryant also. Both were on just about everyone's "top 25 senior prospects" including Rivals and UT. That is for ALL classes and privates in Texas! And they proved their worth with their play. And they only get "honorable mention" by AP for all-state. I guess either AP, or the recruiting services must be incredibly stupid.

I am sure that many deserving players also got slighted, as BC's Peebles for example, but those two from Jasper are the smoking gun against the AP as far as I am concerned.

About Jorrie, and the 3a player of the year. Are you referring to his being selected as the Gatorade player of the year? I saw one or two sentences in the Houston Chronicle to that effect but no other mention anywhere. I have no idea what that honor encompasses. Can anyone please fill in the details please?I was watching the Fox Sports Southwest broadcast of the the 5A Div. 2 state championship. During the halftime they showed clips of and gave a brief bio of their picks for player of the year from each class. Jorrie was picked as 3A player of the year. I'm not sure if this was the Gatorade player of the year or not, I don't think so.

[j_dog]

pinecone:
I don't know much about all-state polls, but everytime one comes out and Joseph Bryant of Jasper is not on it, I will say again that polls are meaningless. ...

... But, as far as Bryant goes, I think it was an oversight. Has to be, no other explanation holds up for anyone who has seen him play. I've seen great players come and go for years here in Jasper(some all-state honored), and he is up there at the top. I hope he reads this and knows he has fans here that belive in him. And to the guys that made the AP team, congratulations and best wishes.This is more amusing than sour grapes from Jasper. We Jasper fans fully expect to see both Bryant and Jorrie playing on Sundays in a few years and the joke will be on the AP voters. That is nothing new. Back in the 70's James Hadnot made SWC Offensive Player of the year once or twice, and All-America at T Tech, breaking Earl Campbell's single season rushing record in the process, and played 3 years for Kansas City. I don't think he made all-state either. As a matter of fact, I don't remember that Zack Bronson made all-state either and he seems to be doing OK for the 49er's. Jasper has dealt with being overlooked before and will handle this also.

[j_dog]

Reminder, for those who didn't get a chance to see Jorrie play this year, he will be playing Jan 5, at 6:00 p.m. in the Alamodome, in San Antonio in the Army national all-star game. Hope to see some of you there!

[PPHSfan]

It is obvious to me that Old Cardinal has never seen Bridgeport play, or for that matter never even seen so much as a highlight film on Daugherty. To Say that no one player from Bridgeport deserves a spot on the all state team is just down right silly. What is so hard to understand about the fact that great players don't always play on great teams?

<small>[ December 23, 2002, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: PPHSfan ]</small>

[big daddy russ]

I think the 3A player of the year award that they're talking about is Dave Campbell's. I know Adams, Adrian Alaniz and about three others were nominated for the award.