Officiating Question [Archive] - Texas DownLow Forum

Snydertigersrul

08-31-2008, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Just a question, not really controversy or new rules. Is it possible for 2 pre-snap penalties to be assessed on the same team/player, same play?

No

headhunter

08-31-2008, 09:30 PM

I am not sure what you are talking about. If it is a dead ball penalty then yes.

Chopblock

08-31-2008, 09:49 PM

did u have any in your game Centex?

jimmyceatworld

08-31-2008, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by CenTexSports
Were there any questionable calls or new rule calles this weekend that caused controversy?

There were about 3 times we had a player jump offsides (without making any contact) and then get back over before they snapped it only to get the flag anyway. Although, they did not affect the outcome of the game at all.

Chopblock

08-31-2008, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Ernest T Bass
Got a zebra with an inferiority complex and got a little outta hand with the new "no warning" sideline rule. 40 yards later, we pulled the game out in OT.

Sounds like someone needs to stay behind the 2nd line

Silverback 04

08-31-2008, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Just a question, not really controversy or new rules. Is it possible for 2 pre-snap penalties to be assessed on the same team/player, same play?

I believe the play in question was an offsides and a dead ball personal foul. 3rd and 19 just became 1st and 10 thanks to a 20 yard penaty. Vance needs to do a little wall to wall counseling.

WylieBulldog92

08-31-2008, 11:34 PM

I was just mad because some trapped balls were called catches and some catches were called incomplete that weren't trapped it went both ways though...

BwdLion_80

09-01-2008, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by Silverback 04
I believe the play in question was an offsides and a dead ball personal foul. 3rd and 19 just became 1st and 10 thanks to a 20 yard penaty. Vance needs to do a little wall to wall counseling.

The personal foul penalty carries an automatic first down with it. So, if you had a live ball foul and a dead bal foul, yes, you can have 2 penalties on the same play.

VAMike

09-01-2008, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Just a question, not really controversy or new rules. Is it possible for 2 pre-snap penalties to be assessed on the same team/player, same play?

Sounds like the player jumpeed offside and made some excessive contact so he was flagged for offside AND the personal foul? If so, that is correct. And if he had yanked his helmet off or cursed at the officials, that would have been a 3d dead ball foul on him, which also could have the penalty enforced.

LH Panther Mom

09-01-2008, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by VAMike
Sounds like the player jumpeed offside and made some excessive contact so he was flagged for offside AND the personal foul? If so, that is correct. And if he had yanked his helmet off or cursed at the officials, that would have been a 3d dead ball foul on him, which also could have the penalty enforced.
That's pretty much the scenario. Thanks!

LH Panther Mom

09-01-2008, 07:28 AM

Another question (to settle a discussion):

Is there such a penalty as "encroachment on the defense"? I always thought (and NCAA rules agree) that encroachment was always an offensive penalty.

wimbo_pro

09-01-2008, 07:43 AM

I thought encroachment was only a defensive penalty? It would be a false start or off sides or illegal formation if it were the offense, right?

LH Panther Mom

09-01-2008, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
I thought encroachment was only a defensive penalty? It would be a false start of off sides if it were the offense, right?
I thought false start is movement by the offense (illegal motion), encroachment is movement by the offense AND "touching" the defense. I'm confused now. :D

wimbo_pro

09-01-2008, 07:52 AM

Me too.

wimbo_pro

09-01-2008, 08:06 AM

For what its worth, Wikipedia (yeah, I know...but it seems to be accurate) calls encroachment a defensive foul only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football_rules#Fouls_by_the_offense

Tx Challenge

09-01-2008, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
I thought false start is movement by the offense (illegal motion), encroachment is movement by the offense AND "touching" the defense. I'm confused now. :D

:D :D Jeez Deb I was about ready to let it go!

LH Panther Mom

09-01-2008, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by Tx Challenge
:D :D Jeez Deb I was about ready to let it go!
Well, there is always the possibility that I was wrong. Oh wait...nvm. :D ;)

Tx Challenge

09-01-2008, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Well, there is always the possibility that I was wrong. Oh wait...nvm. :D ;)

I already admitted that I was wrong. You got me. :D Problem is most places I have researched supports my side:p A lot of disparities on this one

TexanAlum_06

09-01-2008, 11:49 AM

To my understanding Encroachment is when a defensive player jumps offside and physically touches an offensive player before the ball is snapped. it is a 5 yard penalty. so for example it would be a defensive lineman jumping offside and his helmet or something touching the gaurd in front of him which causes the penalty. That is why defensive lineman can jump offiside and as long as they dont make contact with an offensive player and they can get back on their side of the neutral zone before the ball is snapped there is no penalty. centers are usually told by coaches that if the snap count is on 2 and a defensive player jumps on the first count to go ahead and snap the ball and catch them in the neutral zone so they can get the penalty.

Tx Challenge

09-01-2008, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by TexanAlum_06
To my understanding Encroachment is when a defensive player jumps offside and physically touches an offensive player before the ball is snapped. it is a 5 yard penalty. so for example it would be a defensive lineman jumping offside and his helmet or something touching the gaurd in front of him which causes the penalty. That is why defensive lineman can jump offiside and as long as they dont make contact with an offensive player and they can get back on their side of the neutral zone before the ball is snapped there is no penalty. centers are usually told by coaches that if the snap count is on 2 and a defensive player jumps on the first count to go ahead and snap the ball and catch them in the neutral zone so they can get the penalty.

This is my understanding also. The NCAA rules though state different. I have searched this and found the NCAA has a different description than just about everything else I can find. Have to go with NCAA since they are the rules we play under

zebrablue2

09-01-2008, 12:08 PM

Encroachment is--After the ball is ready for play, encrochment occurs when an offensive player is in or beyond the neutral zone after the snapper touches or simulates(hand{s} at or below his knees) touching the ball before the snap. ( Exception: When the ball is put in play, the snapper is not encroaching when he is in the neutral zone.

Section 18. Article 1-- NCAA rule book..

VAMike

09-01-2008, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Another question (to settle a discussion):

Is there such a penalty as "encroachment on the defense"? I always thought (and NCAA rules agree) that encroachment was always an offensive penalty.

Sounds like the foul was probably just announced incorrectly (or the official was not used to NCAA rules). What happened to draw the flag and cause the announcement?

Tx Challenge

09-01-2008, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by VAMike
Sounds like the foul was probably just announced incorrectly (or the official was not used to NCAA rules). What happened to draw the flag and cause the announcement?

Dont think the question is what happened as much as the term.

Play was defensive player jumped and made contact.

I thought dead ball foul....encroachment defense.

NCAA says encroachment is an offensive penalty

VAMike

09-01-2008, 06:58 PM

Correct announcement would have been "Offside, defense" But I assume they penalized 5 yards and moved on?

Tx Challenge

09-01-2008, 07:30 PM

not sure to be honest what the actual call was. Total play was a 20 yard penalty against the defense because a PF was called on the same play.

The argument is not the penalty. The fact that if you look up encroachment, most say it is a defensive penalty when a defensive player jumps off sides and makes contact. Dead ball foul. If he does not make contact, it is defensive off sides and basically a free play for the offense.

NCAA rules, state is is an offensive foul, much the same as a false start.

Emerson1

09-01-2008, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by WylieBulldog92
I was just mad because some trapped balls were called catches and some catches were called incomplete that weren't trapped it went both ways though...
Were you in the stands?

VAMike

09-01-2008, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Tx Challenge
not sure to be honest what the actual call was. Total play was a 20 yard penalty against the defense because a PF was called on the same play.

The argument is not the penalty. The fact that if you look up encroachment, most say it is a defensive penalty when a defensive player jumps off sides and makes contact. Dead ball foul. If he does not make contact, it is defensive off sides and basically a free play for the offense.

NCAA rules, state is is an offensive foul, much the same as a false start.

If defender makes contact with offensive team player before the snap (on the offensive team side of the ball), it is offside, defense.

Tx Challenge

09-01-2008, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by VAMike
If defender makes contact with offensive team player before the snap (on the offensive team side of the ball), it is offside, defense.

Got that as per NCAA rules.....Now, is the call the same if he makes contact while off sides, or just get caught off sides. One would be a dead ball foul, the other being a free play

VAMike

09-01-2008, 07:48 PM

Both will be offside, one is a dead ball offside and one is a live ball offside (and Team A gets to continue with their "free play"

big daddy russ

09-01-2008, 10:40 PM

I always thought encroachment was on the defense, too. Crazy stuff.

Txbroadcaster

09-01-2008, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I always thought encroachment was on the defense, too. Crazy stuff.

I have heard MANY refs say encroachment on the defense

Tx Challenge

09-01-2008, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I have heard MANY refs say encroachment on the defense

I think we all have....hence the confusion

VAMike

09-02-2008, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I have heard MANY refs say encroachment on the defense

You probably have. It IS called that in the NFL and many folks watch the NFL and what they hear/see there is what they think is the right thing. (Same goes for some refs as well who try to emulate the NFL instead of boning up on their own rulebook)

You have probably heard many refs say "offsideS" also but that is also technically wrong. It is offside. The word "offsides" is nowhere in the NCAA rulebook but "offside" is in there @ 40 times.