Georgia vs Russia

[NewYorkYankee]

What are yalls thoughts on the situation that is going on? Precursor to WWIII? or end of time prophecies when Israel gets invaded? One thing I do know is it shows the limits of Western Influence Bush has repeatedly asked Russia to backdown and Russia in the early stages of this conflict ignored his demands


Here a cool article from yesterday..

WASHINGTON — Russia's first foreign war since Soviet troops stormed into Afghanistan nearly three decades ago is showcasing a resurgent military that's trying to overcome years of decline after the breakup of the Soviet Union .

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Russia's oil wealth and Kremlin leader Vladimir Putin's ambition to return his country to its position as a world power have fueled the buildup. But analysts are quick to point out that Russia has picked on a weakling in its invasion of neighboring Georgia and is still a long way from developing a world-class military.

"They are still, by no means, back," said Stephen Blank , a professor at the Strategic Studies Institute of the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle, Pa. "What they were able to do is take out a small conventional force like Georgia ."

Nevertheless, television images of Russian troops and tanks pressing into Georgia provoked reminders of Soviet military might and Cold War invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ordered a halt to the five-day-old conflict Tuesday, although Georgian leaders said the Russian attacks continued.

Although Russian defense spending is a small fraction of that of the United States — roughly $30 billion a year compared with more than $500 billion — the country's nuclear-equipped military is vastly improved from the early and mid-1990s, when soldiers foraged for food in potato fields and officers often had to hold second jobs to provide for their families.

"The Russian military pretty much went into free-fall in the early 1990s," recalled Steven Pifer , who was the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine from 1998 to 2000 and is now a visiting fellow at The Brookings Institution , a center-left research center in Washington .

After the Soviet Union broke apart in 1991, Russia's military expenditures dropped to one-tenth of the Soviet Union's military budgets during the preceding decade, according to GlobalSecurity.org, an online military research site. Spending on weapons declined by 75 percent.

After Putin became president in 2000, the former KGB spy embarked on a military buildup as oil production boosted Russia's economy by an average of 26 percent each year. Putin has since become prime minister after serving two terms as president, and he remains a driving force behind Russia's military policies.

The Defense Ministry launched an eight-year, $189 billion plan last year to build a new generation of intercontinental missiles, nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers and radars and make other upgrades. Russia also is improving the training, pay, benefits and treatment of soldiers, many of whom notoriously have been subjected to bullying and harassment by superiors.

Thousands of Russian soldiers received combat experience through two conflicts in the breakaway republic of Chechnya. Additionally, the Russian military leaders behind the Georgia attacks apparently studied the NATO air campaign over Kosovo and Operation Iraqi Freedom, Nathan Hodge , a land-warfare specialist for Jane's Defense Week, said Tuesday in an analysis of the Russian-Georgian conflict.

"The Russian incursion into Georgian territory— and the air campaign against Georgian military targets— show a confident Russian military," Hodge said. "Clearly, the Russian military is still capable of launching complex, combined arms operations." Combined arms operations employ ground troops, air power, armor, artillery and other tools to achieve a common objective.

The Russian strikes into Georgia , which was once part of the Soviet Union , appeared designed to reverse Georgia's attempts to modernize and rearm, Hodge said. Georgia's $1 billion defense budget is much smaller than Russia's , but the smaller country nevertheless had developed a small, well-armed force with updated equipment, Hodge said.

Retired Col. Christopher Langton , an analyst at London's International Institute for Strategic Studies , called the Russian attack a "classic Soviet-style invasion" featuring tanks, artillery, armored personnel carriers and aerial assaults. In a display of 21st-century military tactics, the campaign also included cyber-warfare that hacked into Georgian government computer systems.

Other analysts said Russia's dominance of its smaller adversary wasn't an accurate test of Moscow's military strength, noting that it was relatively easy for Russian troops to move across the border from their own country without the need for a long supply chain.

"If we're talking about a theaterwide war in Europe , it would be a very different picture," Blank said.

According to the Center for Defense Information , Russia ranks ninth in military spending— the United States , China and the United Kingdom are first, second and third, respectively— and has about 1 million active troops, compared with about 1.4 million for the U.S. military.

One ominously distinctive feature— particularly with the Kremlin's increasingly bellicose rhetoric toward Washington and other Western governments— is Russia's stature as the second largest nuclear superpower, behind the United States .

Although the two countries are committed to reducing nuclear stockpiles under a 2002 arms agreement, Russia still has an estimated 7,200 nuclear warheads, compared with 5,730 for the United States , according to the Center for Defense Information .

"A military confrontation with Russia would be unlike a confrontation with any other country because they still have a superpower-sized nuclear arsenal," said defense analyst Loren Thompson , an executive with the Lexington Institute , a defense-policy research center in Arlington, Va .

Russia also boasts one of the world's most respected air forces, with sophisticated multi-role warplanes such as the MiG-29 and the Su-27. It's moving aggressively to develop unmanned aircraft similar to those the United States is using in Iraq and Afghanistan .


WoW! the amt. of nuclear warheads that Russia has is scary

[sahen]

i know they say Georgia is preseason favorite to win it all but I think they may have bit off more than they can chew, but then again i guess thats what Bulldogs do...

[Old Tiger]

i think we have no business getting involved and we need to keep our mouths shut because we are already in a losing war and definately can't afford another one.

[BwdLions]

Originally posted by Go Blue
i think we have no business getting involved and we need to keep our mouths shut because we are already in a losing war and definately can't afford another one.

A pretty poor opinion if I've ever heard one. You should move to France. You'd fit right in.

[Keith7]

I agree.. stay out of other peoples business.. we are not the world police..

[DDBooger]

pipeline through Georgia actually allows us to bypass Iranian and Russian influence if I heard right...another issue is other former Soviet bloc countries see Georgia being left out to dry effects the influence we have on them and strengthens the influence Russians have on them...Frankly, the U.S. is impotent to do just about anything anyways. Had they been a member of Nato, technicalities would have forced our hand, but unlikely Russia would have acted.

[cameron91]

Russia , is has just PUNKED BUSH.That go to show you GB is all talk , when Iraq went into Kuwait GB SR went to war b/c Kuwait is our buddy. Georgia is our Buddy too , but Russia has more to fight with then Iraq did. North Korea punked GB with those missle test and now Russia is doing it. GB is like a school yard bully he'll pick on the lil boys but want fight the big boys..

[Pick6]

Originally posted by cameron91
Russia , is has just PUNKED BUSH.That go to show you GB is all talk , when Iraq went into Kuwait GB SR went to war b/c Kuwait is our buddy. Georgia is our Buddy too , but Russia has more to fight with then Iraq did. North Korea punked GB with those missle test and now Russia is doing it. GB is like a school yard bully he'll pick on the lil boys but want fight the big boys..


Do we have a "kid doesn't have a clue" button?

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Pick6
Do we have a "kid doesn't have a clue" button?

No....but we have a "this thread is closed" button!!

[Old Tiger]

Russia tells US to choose between it and Georgia


Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says the United States has to choose between its virtual project, Georgia, and its real partnership with Russia. He was responding to US President George W Bush's press conference which took place earlier on Wednesday. He went on to accuse the US of arming Georgia over recent years, and said Russia's partners were playing a dangerous game.

In his press conference, Mr Bush accused Russia of not honouring the ceasefire in Georgia. He said there were disturbing reports that Russian forces were still operating in the country. He went on to say he backed Georgia's democratic government and territorial integrity.

Russian forces were said to have taken positions east of Gori and to be blocking the most important supply route into the Georgian capital Tbilisi. Mr Bush also said the Georgia's port of Poti was being blockaded.

Humanitarian aid from countries including the United States has begun to arrive in Tbilisi. It has also been announced that US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will travel to Tbilisi.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by cameron91
Russia , is has just PUNKED BUSH.That go to show you GB is all talk , when Iraq went into Kuwait GB SR went to war b/c Kuwait is our buddy. Georgia is our Buddy too , but Russia has more to fight with then Iraq did. North Korea punked GB with those missle test and now Russia is doing it. GB is like a school yard bully he'll pick on the lil boys but want fight the big boys.. i am by no means a GB fan, but this has much larger ramifications! lol despite what GB's peeps said, Iraq didn't have wmd much less NUCLEAR WEAPONS...Putin has plenty, despite having diminisihed capabilities conventionally, mutual destruction over Georgian sovereignty is insane! Even if we weren't at war in Iraq, no Dem or Rep. would risk it. Rest assured, it is my opinion that we would have obliterated Russian forces with air power alone. That being said, Russia like us will act unilaterally because, who is going to tell us otherwise?

[sahen]

looks like Russia got mad the price of oil was going down so they are gonna try to do something to get it back up...Russia's economy has been growing bigtime the past 8 years or so due to oil's increase whereas before that they were in complete and utter dissarray...its unfortunate that no one can or will do anything to help Georgia out, but if they couldve then Russia wouldn't have done this in the first place, their military can take over a small country like Georgia but if they got in a real fight they would crumble, albeit take a lot of people along w/ them if they decided to punch the button on their nukes...

[WildTexan972]

Originally posted by Go Blue
i think we have no business getting involved and we need to keep our mouths shut because we are already in a losing war and definately can't afford another one.

Losing war my butt....just how many American buildings have we seen bombed since W took the fight to those scumbags?

NONE.....that is exactly how many....

9/11 was losing.....today we are SAFER due to this war....and I DOUBLE DOG DARE any one of you to prove me wrong there....it can not be done....NO planes hijacked and NO buildings attacked....prove those facts wrong if you can....

complaining about the war while soldiers sit in the field is just plain communist...no other way to explain it...feel free to be a leftwing tree huggin tax and spend liberal if you choose, but don't cut on the war while our soldiers are over there...that includes the muslim at the head of the party and all the way down....

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by WildTexan972
Losing war my butt....just how many American buildings have we seen bombed since W took the fight to those scumbags?

NONE.....that is exactly how many.... it was 8 years between the 1st and 2nd wtc bombings, they dont work on our timetable.


Originally posted by WildTexan972
9/11 was losing.....today we are SAFER due to this war....and I DOUBLE DOG DARE any one of you to prove me wrong there....it can not be done....NO planes hijacked and NO buildings attacked....prove those facts wrong if you can....nothing to prove, you act as if they feel the need to bomb according to your order of things, our involvement, right or wrong, in Iraq has limited our responses to other places of interest, namely countries who have wmd(North Korea&Iran). You feel safe knowing that? ;)


Originally posted by WildTexan972


complaining about the war while soldiers sit in the field is just plain communist...
talking about it as if its so simple is stupid and stating its a form of govt. is ignorant and laughable


Originally posted by WildTexan972
no other way to explain it...feel free to be a leftwing tree huggin tax and spend liberal if you choose, but don't cut on the war while our soldiers are over there...that includes the muslim at the head of the party and all the way down.... lmao prime example of why we are easily fooled into believing anything!

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by Go Blue
i think we have no business getting involved and we need to keep our mouths shut because we are already in a losing war and definately can't afford another one.

We arent "losing" in Iraq. You might think we are...maybe even hope we are, I dunno...but we are certainly not losing. War is ugly and might not conform to what you think winning and losing looks like. If you are using past wars as your guide, then you would have to admit that even in WW2 there were times when things looked bad. It doesnt mean we were "losing" the war at that point.

In my opinion, this kind of talk undermines our men and women over there and should be kept out of forums they might read...we should leave it to the likes of Harry Reid who claimed a year ago we had "lost" the war...funny how things have improved tremendously since he said that.

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by cameron91
Russia , is has just PUNKED BUSH.That go to show you GB is all talk , when Iraq went into Kuwait GB SR went to war b/c Kuwait is our buddy. Georgia is our Buddy too , but Russia has more to fight with then Iraq did. North Korea punked GB with those missle test and now Russia is doing it. GB is like a school yard bully he'll pick on the lil boys but want fight the big boys..

Comments like this only solidify the opinion that our education system is in trouble.

[NewYorkYankee]

The weird thing is they said the projector base would be ready by 2012 (The year the world would end as per the Aztec Calenders last prediction,just a fyi for those who dont know bout it,NONE of their predictions have ever been wrong)! Coincidence?Im sure yall have already heard of the bible code...maybe theres something our government is keeping from us to ensure this base is ready by 2012 or Coincidence?

WARSAW (Reuters) - Poland finally agreed on Thursday to host elements of U.S. global anti-missile system on its territory after Washington improved the terms of the deal amid the Georgia crisis.

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The preliminary deal was signed by deputy Polish Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer and U.S. chief negotiator John Rood. It still needs to be endorsed by both governments and the Polish parliament.

The signing comes after Prime Minister Donald Tusk had been holding out for enhanced military cooperation with the United States in return for consent to host 10 interceptor rockets at a base in northern Poland.

Washington says the interceptors and a radar in the Czech Republic would form part of a global "missile shield" protecting the United States and its allies from long range missiles that could in the future be fired by Iran or groups such as al-Qaeda.

"We have crossed the Rubicon," Tusk said just before the deal was signed.

"We have finally got understanding of our point of view that Poland, being a crucial partner in NATO and an important friend and ally of the United States, must also be safe."

Officials said the deal included a U.S. declaration that it will aid Poland militarily in case of a threat from a third country and that it would establish a permanent U.S. base on Polish soil in a symbolic gesture underlining the alliance.

"We are comfortable that we negotiated a strong agreement," Rood said. "It elevates our security relationship to a new level."

The United States also agreed to a long-standing Polish demand to hand Poland a battery of Patriot rockets, a defense system against short-range missiles, Polish officials said.

One U.S. official said the Patriots were "mentioned" but did not elaborate.

RUSSIA VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED

If everything goes to schedule, the interceptor base would be ready by around 2012, officials have said. The Czechs have already signed an agreement to host the radar although parliament there must ratify it.

Russia has vehemently opposed placing the shield installations in central Europe, saying they would threaten its security and upset the post-Cold War balance of power in Europe.

Washington reiterated on Thursday this was not the case.

"In no way is the (U.S.) president's plan for missile defense aimed at Russia," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said. "The purpose of missile defense is to protect our European allies from any rogue threats."

Moscow has threatened to take retaliatory steps against Poland and the Czech Republic, its former reluctant vassals who are now part of the European Union and NATO.

In the face of Russian opposition, Tusk had argued he could not agree to the shield unless the United States agreed to boost Warsaw's air defenses and enhance mutual military cooperation.

Russia's military action against Georgia strengthened the argument, Tusk said on Tuesday, ahead of the talks this week.

Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski played down the impact of the events in Georgia on the deal, apparently hoping to soften any criticism from Moscow.

In what appeared to be the first sign of Moscow's displeasure, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Thursday cancelled a planned trip to Warsaw in September, Polish diplomats said.

Russia has also been angered by Poland's strong verbal support for Georgia.

The shield deal, if approved by parliaments in Prague and Warsaw, will be a rare success for President George W. Bush who has argued it is essential to contain the threat of a potentially nuclear-armed Iran.

Washington hopes the shield might persuade Iran to abandon its nuclear program, although Teheran says it wants to develop nuclear energy only to generate electricity and not to make nuclear weapons.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
We arent "losing" in Iraq. You might think we are...maybe even hope we are, I dunno...but we are certainly not losing. War is ugly and might not conform to what you think winning and losing looks like. If you are using past wars as your guide, then you would have to admit that even in WW2 there were times when things looked bad. It doesnt mean we were "losing" the war at that point.

In my opinion, this kind of talk undermines our men and women over there and should be kept out of forums they might read...we should leave it to the likes of Harry Reid who claimed a year ago we had "lost" the war...funny how things have improved tremendously since he said that. I look at this war as a modern day Vietnam.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
We arent "losing" in Iraq. You might think we are...maybe even hope we are, I dunno...but we are certainly not losing. War is ugly and might not conform to what you think winning and losing looks like. If you are using past wars as your guide, then you would have to admit that even in WW2 there were times when things looked bad. It doesnt mean we were "losing" the war at that point.

In my opinion, this kind of talk undermines our men and women over there and should be kept out of forums they might read...we should leave it to the likes of Harry Reid who claimed a year ago we had "lost" the war...funny how things have improved tremendously since he said that.
I totally agree! I know for a fact that there have been, and I believe currently are, American soldiers in Iraq that are members on here. They do read and post when they can....all while defending our rights, yes even the right to post idiotic statements.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
Comments like this only solidify the opinion that our education system is in trouble. so do stating being against the war is communist and speaking about war as if it only requires someone to say support the troops is patriotic! lmao Ignorance is bliss and some people choose to live in it as long as its painted red white and blue! I didn't agree with its premise, but it should be finished right or wrong, we owe it to the lives destroyed on their side and our troops. They want us out by 2010, adios!

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
I totally agree! I know for a fact that there have been, and I believe currently are, American soldiers in Iraq that are members on here. They do read and post when they can....all while defending our rights, yes even the right to post idiotic statements. Why is my opinion idiotic? Because it goes against the norm?

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by DDBooger
so do stating being against the war is communist and speaking about war as if it only requires someone to say support the troops is patriotic! lmao Ignorance is bliss and some people choose to live in it as long as its painted red white and blue! I didn't agree with its premise, but it should it should be finished right or wrong, we owe it to the lives destroyed on their side and our troops. They want us out by 2010, adios!
I believe wimbo was referring to the actual post, not necessarily the content. ;)

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Go Blue
I look at this war as a modern day Vietnam. insurgency is not nearly as ravenous, the Viet Cong were much better organized. that being said, its politicalization is just as polarized. We have a chance to leave Iraq with our heads up, and no one disagrees with its premise more than me...

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by Go Blue
Why is my opinion idiotic? Because it goes against the norm?
Did I say your opinion was idiotic? Feeling guilty or something? :thinking: Reread what I said. How many idiotic statements are posted on here on a daily basis? (And yes, I'm sure I've had my share!) If our soldiers did not fight for, and defend, our freedoms, do you think you'd have the same opportunities?

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by DDBooger
so do stating being against the war is communist and speaking about war as if it only requires someone to say support the troops is patriotic! lmao Ignorance is bliss and some people choose to live in it as long as its painted red white and blue! I didn't agree with its premise, but it should be finished right or wrong, we owe it to the lives destroyed on their side and our troops. They want us out by 2010, adios!

What I meant by this is the statements made are ridiculous and are obvious to those who know a little about international relations and the give and take of diplomacy.

Need I explain why we didnt invade North Korea?? I mean...REALLY?? And do you REALLY think we didnt invade North Korea because George Bush is a sissy?? Here's a clue ...THEY HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Get it?

THATs one reason why we didnt invade. sheesh. Now imagine Iran with nukes. Think things out.

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by DDBooger
...we owe it to the lives destroyed on their side and our troops. They want us out by 2010, adios!

We dont "owe it" to anyone over there, only those Americans who sacrificed.

By the way...keep this in mind...EVERY SINGLE soldier and marine over there has enlisted or re-enlisted since the war began...its there CHOICE. Idiotic and demeaning statements (on boards they read for pleasure) about a cause they apparently believe in does them no good at a time when they need comfort.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
What I meant by this is the statements made are ridiculous and are obvious to those who know a little about international relations and the give and take of diplomacy.

Need I explain why we didnt invade North Korea?? I mean...REALLY?? And do you REALLY think we didnt invade North Korea because George Bush is a sissy?? Here's a clue ...THEY HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Get it?

THATs one reason why we didnt invade. sheesh. Now imagine Iran with nukes. Think things out. you have nothing to explain to me partner! I interned with council of foreign relations, Globalization and geopolitical arena is a hobby as well. North Korea? where did that come from? sissy? lol are you addressing this to the right person? haha

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
We dont "owe it" to anyone over there, only those Americans who sacrificed.

By the way...keep this in mind...EVERY SINGLE soldier and marine over there has enlisted or re-enlisted since the war began...its there CHOICE. Idiotic and demeaning statements (on boards they read for pleasure) about a cause they apparently believe in does them no good at a time when they need comfort. excuse me was it Bush who said "to give freedom to Iraqi's" of course after WMD was taken off the table. you don't invade a country, destroy its infrastructure, dismantle it, promise them democracy and freedom and then suggest, we owe them nothing, Perhaps that should have been made clear prior to invasion "we owe you nothing"

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Did I say your opinion was idiotic? Feeling guilty or something? :thinking: Reread what I said. How many idiotic statements are posted on here on a daily basis? (And yes, I'm sure I've had my share!) If our soldiers did not fight for, and defend, our freedoms, do you think you'd have the same opportunities? Well most of the time it is but this time i have a valid point. Sorry for jumping to conclusions

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by DDBooger
excuse me was it Bush who said "to give freedom to Iraqi's" of course after WMD was taken off the table. you don't invade a country, destroy its infrastructure, dismantle it, promise them democracy and freedom and then suggest, we owe them nothing, Perhaps that should have been made clear prior to invasion "we owe you nothing"

What I meant was...we have already paid that debt to them. We owe them no more. We have given them the greatest gift they could have imagined, they just need to take advantage of it.

[SintonFan_inAustin]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro

By the way...keep this in mind...EVERY SINGLE soldier and marine over there has enlisted or re-enlisted since the war began...its there CHOICE.



Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
If our soldiers did not fight for, and defend, our freedoms, do you think you'd have the same opportunities? :thumbsup:

[cameron91]

we did invade Iraq, did they have any NUKES or WMD.NO. just like I said GB will fight the ones that can't fight back . Georgia stood by the US with the war in Iraq.US has given Georgia plenty of money and has help bulit their army. bot now Georgia needs the US and what is GB doing..nothin..PUTIN PUNKED GB flat out.GB best responce is I will kick you out of he G-8..PLEASE..

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by cameron91
we did invade Iraq, did they have any NUKES or WMD.NO. just like I said GB will fight the ones that can't fight back . Georgia stood by the US with the war in Iraq.US has given Georgia plenty of money and has help bulit their army. bot now Georgia needs the US and what is GB doing..nothin..PUTIN PUNKED GB flat out.GB best responce is I will kick you out of he G-8..PLEASE..

So wait....We should not have gone to iraq, but u want us to go to Georgia and fight in a war that is between a nation and it's former occupoant...You want us to open a THIRD front( dont forget we still fight in Afganhistan

Sorry, but we dont need to stretch ourselves out that thin

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
What I meant was...we have already paid that debt to them. We owe them no more. We have given them the greatest gift they could have imagined, they just need to take advantage of it. if thats the case, why stay? lol come on wimbo, we are hardly done, because I don't agree with the war's premise doesn't make me a cut and runner or any other label some mindless political pundit follower suggests. That place still requires some work and unless we finish it, all we have done is provide another haven for muslim fundamentalism to take root. We've given them a country teetering on failure and success, there is finally some light at the end of the tunnel, we should see it through, right or wrong, the greatest gift won't be perceived that way if its simply "here now take it and run"

[Keith7]

We waste money and lives on a war the will never be won in Iraq, we need our troops home. We are not world police, why would we go to Georgia? Its not our business

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
So wait....We should not have gone to iraq, but u want us to go to Georgia and fight in a war that is between a nation and it's former occupoant...You want us to open a THIRD front( dont forget we still fight in Afganhistan

Sorry, but we dont need to stretch ourselves out that thin he's slightly misinformed haha...sad as it is, Georgia simply is not worth it, economically, politically or to preserve mankind! lol we certainly won't elevate Georgia to a Cuban or Suez Canal type crisis

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by cameron91
we did invade Iraq, did they have any NUKES or WMD.NO. just like I said GB will fight the ones that can't fight back . Georgia stood by the US with the war in Iraq.US has given Georgia plenty of money and has help bulit their army. bot now Georgia needs the US and what is GB doing..nothin..PUTIN PUNKED GB flat out.GB best responce is I will kick you out of he G-8..PLEASE..

Do you have any idea how young and uniformed you sound?

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Keith7
We waste money and lives on a war the will never be won in Iraq, we need our troops home. We are not world police, why would we go to Georgia? Its not our business if this was a war in the conventional sense perhaps, but this is hardly that. It's a war for competing ideologies. Fundamentalism vs secularism. It is hardly that its winnable or loseable in terms that people throw around all to often. Its complications are great and introducing a culture and ethnicity into 21st century mode of thinking rather than wahabism is difficult. Compound that with economic factors (oil), geographic influence(an answer to the growing influence of Iran) and you have a volatile situation

[cameron91]

5yrs later and we're still in Afganhistan..that should tell you something.too bad we had all those brave young men and ladies lost their life for Dick Chaney and GB War..

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by DDBooger
if thats the case, why stay? lol come on wimbo, we are hardly done, because I don't agree with the war's premise doesn't make me a cut and runner or any other label some mindless political pundit follower suggests. That place still requires some work and unless we finish it, all we have done is provide another haven for muslim fundamentalism to take root. We've given them a country teetering on failure and success, there is finally some light at the end of the tunnel, we should see it through, right or wrong, the greatest gift won't be perceived that way if its simply "here now take it and run"

Totally agree...we WILL finish the job, and sacrifice more to get it done. We owe them no more than that. And in my opinion, we have paid too high of a price as it is. With that said, the WORST thing we can do is squaunder it now. DBooger, I think we are more in agreement than not.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
Do you have any idea how young and uniformed you sound? i find that when people make up their mind about something absent of fact or knowledge, age generally is of little consequence haha you don't have that problem ;)

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by Keith7
We waste money and lives on a war the will never be won in Iraq, we need our troops home. We are not world police, why would we go to Georgia? Its not our business
We ARE winning it, Keith...and we WILL win it...time will prove this to you.

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by cameron91
5yrs later and we're still in Afganhistan..that should tell you something.too bad we had all those brave young men and ladies lost their life for Dick Chaney and GB War..

one day you'll see those soldier and marines didnt do it for the president or VP...they did it for YOU....one day you will understand.

[SintonFan_inAustin]

Russia has stopped advancing for now, wonder if they got the memo, GB is getting involved .

[Txbroadcaster]

For those saying we are losing in Iraq, please give examples

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by cameron91
5yrs later and we're still in Afganhistan..that should tell you something.too bad we had all those brave young men and ladies lost their life for Dick Chaney and GB War.. it will be 7 years oct 7th I believe. Neglect and terrain have played a role in that war. I agree to an extent, but large numbers in Afghanistan's terrain are rendered null and void in alot of that region..add to that the kyber pass and you have a southwest asian "ho chi minh" trail

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
For those saying we are losing in Iraq, please give examples

Dont bother, Txbroadcaster...they have NO IDEA what they are talking about.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
it will be 7 years oct 7th I believe. Neglect and terrain have played a role in that war. I agree to an extent, but large numbers in Afghanistan's terrain are rendered null and void in alot of that region..add to that the kyber pass and you have a southwest asian "ho chi minh" trail

the Terrain is one of the main reasons the Soviet Uniion could never accomplish their task( that an American help)

That country is not really a country it is a bunch of tribes that happen to live in an area of land that has lines drawn on a map.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by SintonFan_inAustin
Russia has stopped advancing for now, wonder if they got the memo, GB is getting involved . they'd probably laugh or are laughing...it is equivalent to their objections to our invasion of Iraq, they couldn't do anything to stop it! We could, but like's been mentioned earlier, they know we won't risk lives and possibly larger war over Georgia...

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
the Terrain is one of the main reasons the Soviet Uniion could never accomplish their task( that an American help)

That country is not really a country it is a bunch of tribes that happen to live in an area of land that has lines drawn on a map. well prior to the introduction of the stingers, they were suppressing the mujahadeen pretty well, their gunships were devastating...the introduction of the stinger DRASTICALLY changed things. add to that, we make mistakes and accidentally kill friendlies, the Russians were ruthless. we have a bit better standing in their eyes ;)

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
well prior to the introduction of the stingers, they were suppressing the mujahadeen pretty well, their gunships were devastating...the introduction of the stinger DRASTICALLY changed things. add to that, we make mistakes and accidentally kill friendlies, the Russians were ruthless. we have a bit better standing in their eyes ;)

supressing..yes, but not totally controlling..just like in Vietnam for us, they vastly underrated the fact theu fought the soldiers and the terrain

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
supressing..yes, but not totally controlling..just like in Vietnam for us, they vastly underrated the fact theu fought the soldiers and the terrain well, you're giving a bit too much cred to the mujahadeen prior, they were causing trouble, but nothing that caused the Russians to think twice about leaving...once those ships, jets and tanks started going down in large numbers, the addition and subtraction wasn't favorable...if we were facing hit and runs in iraq, with light arms play, we'd be in the driver seat, likely iranian intervention with shaped charges and IED got our attention and succeeded in formenting some dissention in this country...

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by DDBooger
well, you're giving a bit too much cred to the mujahadeen prior, they were causing trouble, but nothing that caused the Russians to think twice about leaving...once those ships, jets and tanks started going down in large numbers, the addition and subtraction wasn't favorable...if we were facing hit and runs in iraq, with light arms play, we'd be in the driver seat, likely iranian intervention with shaped charges and IED got our attention and succeeded in formenting some dissention in this country...

No actually I am giving most of the credit to the land itself, not the "freedom fighters" insurgents whatever u want to call them...But they did learn one thing from Vietnam..You dont have to beat a Power, you just need to be willing to outlast them till that power tires of the fight

[wimbo_pro]

Dont forget that the Reagan plan to spend them into oblivion was working too...along with Gorbachev coming on board.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
No actually I am giving most of the credit to the land itself, not the "freedom fighters" insurgents whatever u want to call them...But they did learn one thing from Vietnam..You dont have to beat a Power, you just need to be willing to outlast them till that power tires of the fight agree, terrain is terrible...and yes, bleeding a superpower is the way to beat an overpowering enemy.

[RMAC]

To DD, Keith, and Blue; we shouldn't police the world you say? That's funny coming from people with your mindsets as you are the ones that want us to stop the genocide in Darfur, but Saddam gassed thousands of the Kurds, but stopping a dictator that did that is just "Policing" the world. I guess I just don't understand. I guess after 5 years the left finally realized the war wasn't about oil so now it's on to the next reason why Bush was/is the worst president in history.

[RMAC]

Oh, and Blue, go look at the number of deaths after 5 years in Vietnam and go look at the number of deaths in Iraq since the war began in '03 . . . now get out your calculator and realize how dumb it makes you look to compare them to one another. Thanks for playing.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by RMAC
To DD, Keith, and Blue; perhaps you should read closer and tell me where I said that! ;)


Originally posted by RMAC
we shouldn't police the world you say? That's funny coming from people with your mindsets as you are the ones that want us to stop the genocide in Darfur, lol quite presumptious, but I presume if it befits whatever point your making about them


Originally posted by RMAC
but Saddam gassed thousands of the Kurds, but stopping a dictator that did that is just "Policing" the world. had that been the intial premise perhaps you'd have a point! it wasn't that he gassed kurds, but that he would gas americans! guess they vanished.


Originally posted by RMAC
I guess I just don't understand. I guess after 5 years the left finally realized the war wasn't about oil so now it's on to the next reason why Bush was/is the worst president in history. better yet, when we get the LAST reason for being there I imagine you'll fall in line to say "yeah, right on" ;)

[JR2004]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
For those saying we are losing in Iraq, please give examples

I'll be getting social security checks before any examples can be given of us losing in Iraq. If some folks were more informed and knew a bit about the history of fledgling democracies they wouldn't run their mouth quite so quickly.

[shankbear]

I admire Georgia in this action but they violated Rule #1.........Don't tug on Superman's cape. Georgia had all the right in the world to try to stop the acts by paramilitary forces from S. Ossetia attacking in Georgia proper. The response was not measured and it was obviously anticipated by the Ruskies. Putin and his thugs had troops staged as to make this quick response to this situation.

If Saakashvilli would have held off and hit them only in Georgia proper, this probably would have not happened. Putin is KGB to the core so he is still fomenting the old Soviet ways. Putin and his puppet, Medvedev are the real problem here.

The Ukraine may be next on Moscow's adgenda. The Ruskies lease the port of Sovastopol(sp) from The Ukraine and now the Ukranians have said no to Moscow's use for attacking Georgia from that port. There are 50million Ukranians and they are much better armed and prepared than Georgia. Still, they are out-gunned.

[Mcguirk]

Ok, I'm late to the battle, but here's my 1/2 cents worth. Concerning those who believe Bush is a bully just picking on the little guys he can beat; history shows that this stuff in the middle east goes back a long way. We're still trying to clean up crap the British screwed up during and after WWll. They partitioned the middle east off, saw how screwed up it was, told Eisenhower "you take over" and then walked away.
If you think Bush picked on the easily beatable Iraq, or to avenge his daddy, or for the oil you need to read a book called "Americas secret war". It's been a while but I think this is the theory:
The Clinton administration gutted the CIA (not blaming him so don't bother accusing me of doing so) and forced them to quit dealing with undesirable and scummy people. Well this cut off contact and information from the informants in the middle east. So when the WTC's were attacked, America was caught completely off guard. Rumors were flying around that one could buy soviet suitcase nukes on the street in Russia, and several were already smuggled across the border. We had no way to verify anything. Pakistan had nukes too, and a shaky govt that might not be able to control the Muslim extremest who might give them to another US unfriendly.
We had no friends (except Israel, who everyone over there hates) in the ME. Many wish to see us dead and no amount of negotiating would change it. The best we could hope for is that they respected us, not out of love or concern, but out of fear or respect for our ability to rain hell on them. Which we did. And they responded accordingly, with even Khadafi coming to our side. That is how we took control of the situation. But when we showed weakness, all bets were off and we're where we are at now. And of course mistakes were made along the way.
I guess my point is that we the public never really knows what is going on in the world. Half the population can't find the middle east on a map, but they somehow belive that they can solve complex geo-political situation whose roots go back decades. And I'm not taking a slap at anyone on this board in that statement, so please don't take it that way.
And as far as Russia goes, study their history. This is business as usual. Did anyone believe that the ex head of the KGB was a choir boy? This time instead of killing for Communism they are killing for money. The Russian oil industry is falling apart. They are keeping all the money and the infrastructure is falling apart. By taking control of Georgia they can control the oil pipeline that supplies Europe and make a little more money through old fashion extortion. If you can't produce any more oil, make what you have more valuable. And it would be insane to attack the Russian militarily. Remember Mutualy Assured Destruction? This is where diplomacy and back room deals come in to play. Ugly, but it's the truth.
And please don't think I'm attacking anyone for their beliefs, it's just the way I see things, and what I belive is true. The great thing about America is that we can still say what we believe!
Like Wylie over LH, Waco LV and Brownwood.
:D
GOD bless America and GOD bless Texas!

[wimbo_pro]

Good post, Mcguirk...history has EVERYTHING to do with what is going on there and in Iraq (though I must add one thing...it actually goes back to WW1 and the partitioning of the Middle East even back then).

[shankbear]

The Russian slant on this.............


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4535173.ece

[wimbo_pro]

Originally posted by shankbear
The Russian slant on this.............


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4535173.ece

Interesting....sounds like some of the posters I have seen in here.

[NewYorkYankee]

Georgia-Russia conflict predicted in 2001 video game
Life imitates Tom Clancy
By Mike Smith
ADVERTISEMENT

Recent news coverage of the worrying ground war between Russia and Georgia could well leave gamers with a sense of deja vu.

The South Ossetia war, which began on August 7, bears a close resemblance to events portrayed in the 2001 Xbox and Playstation 2 game "Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon," the first level of which takes place against the backdrop of a struggle between Georgian rebel forces and the legitimate Georgian government in the South Ossetian region.

Ghost Recon's plot follows these skirmishes with a full-scale Russian invasion of the region, a subsequent evacuation of US forces, and ultimately the fall of the Georgian government. Ghost Recon almost got the timescale right, too: the game's imaginary events begin in April 2008, just a few months before the real war kicked off.
If Ghost Recon's uncanny trend continues, we can expect the South Ossetia conflict to culminate in a dramatic assault on Red Square and the Kremlin by NATO troops -- spearheaded by an elite US special forces team under the control of a pimply fourteen-year-old with a joypad. Considering that the most recent game in the Ghost Recon series climaxes with an oh-so-narrowly-averted terrorist nuclear strike on the US, we hope the predictive power of the game runs out. Soon

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by NewYorkYankee
Georgia-Russia conflict predicted in 2001 video game
Life imitates Tom Clancy
By Mike Smith
ADVERTISEMENT

Recent news coverage of the worrying ground war between Russia and Georgia could well leave gamers with a sense of deja vu.

The South Ossetia war, which began on August 7, bears a close resemblance to events portrayed in the 2001 Xbox and Playstation 2 game "Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon," the first level of which takes place against the backdrop of a struggle between Georgian rebel forces and the legitimate Georgian government in the South Ossetian region.

Ghost Recon's plot follows these skirmishes with a full-scale Russian invasion of the region, a subsequent evacuation of US forces, and ultimately the fall of the Georgian government. Ghost Recon almost got the timescale right, too: the game's imaginary events begin in April 2008, just a few months before the real war kicked off.
If Ghost Recon's uncanny trend continues, we can expect the South Ossetia conflict to culminate in a dramatic assault on Red Square and the Kremlin by NATO troops -- spearheaded by an elite US special forces team under the control of a pimply fourteen-year-old with a joypad. Considering that the most recent game in the Ghost Recon series climaxes with an oh-so-narrowly-averted terrorist nuclear strike on the US, we hope the predictive power of the game runs out. Soon probably not so much a prediction as speculation...lol anyone with a stratfor.com subscription could have seen this coming to head eventually! But I love Clancy books and subsequent movies :)

[ronwx5x]

Originally posted by NewYorkYankee
Georgia-Russia conflict predicted in 2001 video game
Life imitates Tom Clancy
By Mike Smith
ADVERTISEMENT

Recent news coverage of the worrying ground war between Russia and Georgia could well leave gamers with a sense of deja vu.

The South Ossetia war, which began on August 7, bears a close resemblance to events portrayed in the 2001 Xbox and Playstation 2 game "Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon," the first level of which takes place against the backdrop of a struggle between Georgian rebel forces and the legitimate Georgian government in the South Ossetian region.

Ghost Recon's plot follows these skirmishes with a full-scale Russian invasion of the region, a subsequent evacuation of US forces, and ultimately the fall of the Georgian government. Ghost Recon almost got the timescale right, too: the game's imaginary events begin in April 2008, just a few months before the real war kicked off.
If Ghost Recon's uncanny trend continues, we can expect the South Ossetia conflict to culminate in a dramatic assault on Red Square and the Kremlin by NATO troops -- spearheaded by an elite US special forces team under the control of a pimply fourteen-year-old with a joypad. Considering that the most recent game in the Ghost Recon series climaxes with an oh-so-narrowly-averted terrorist nuclear strike on the US, we hope the predictive power of the game runs out. Soon

You don't really feel that a game is predicting current events?

[DDBooger]

on a side note, Poland agreed to partake in our missle shield plan...lol the timing of it is perfect! haha We may not be able to interject in Georgia, but we can sure piss off the Russians if needed. We have strings we can pull as well ;) As I've said before, I'm no fan of W, but Putin is crazy if he thinks he'll outsly a fox like Bush! Ever wonder how a meeting with H. and Putin would go? former CIA and KGB:thinking: bet they can trade some great stories :cool:

[BwdLions]

Originally posted by WildTexan972
Losing war my butt....just how many American buildings have we seen bombed since W took the fight to those scumbags?

NONE.....that is exactly how many....

9/11 was losing.....today we are SAFER due to this war....and I DOUBLE DOG DARE any one of you to prove me wrong there....it can not be done....NO planes hijacked and NO buildings attacked....prove those facts wrong if you can....

complaining about the war while soldiers sit in the field is just plain communist...no other way to explain it...feel free to be a leftwing tree huggin tax and spend liberal if you choose, but don't cut on the war while our soldiers are over there...that includes the muslim at the head of the party and all the way down....

I'm glad to say that I finally agree with you Texan on something. I appreciate your postand agree wholeheartedly. ;)

[BwdLions]

Originally posted by RMAC
To DD, Keith, and Blue; we shouldn't police the world you say? That's funny coming from people with your mindsets as you are the ones that want us to stop the genocide in Darfur, but Saddam gassed thousands of the Kurds, but stopping a dictator that did that is just "Policing" the world. I guess I just don't understand. I guess after 5 years the left finally realized the war wasn't about oil so now it's on to the next reason why Bush was/is the worst president in history.

Let's face it, if the United States didn't police the world and allowed countries to bully smaller and inferior ones and at times overthrew them, this world wouldn't be worth living in. Do I agree with everything Bush does, goodness no, but I think he does a good job of supporting the countries that derserve it.