Umpire Question (baseball)

[Astrosdawg07]

Tonight I was calling a little league game, the pitcher started to pitch the ball but never finished through. He was pitching from the stretch and I called a balk and awarded the batter a ball. The coach protested the call saying you cannot call a balk with no runners on...Am I wrong here, the coach protested the game and we are awaiting a ruling from the league.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by Astrosdawg07
Tonight I was calling a little league game, the pitcher started to pitch the ball but never finished through. He was pitching from the stretch and I called a balk and awarded the batter a ball. The coach protested the call saying you cannot call a balk with no runners on...Am I wrong here, the coach protested the game and we are awaiting a ruling from the league.

Hope this helps. From what I gathered it is your discretion, but I am by no means a baseball guru.

8.01
Legal pitching delivery. There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.
Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.
Rule 8.01 Comment: Pitchers may disengage the rubber after taking their signs but may not step quickly onto the rubber and pitch. This may be judged a quick pitch by the umpire. When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.
Pitchers will not be allowed to disengage the rubber after taking each sign.
(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
When a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate and his other foot free, he will be considered in the Windup Position.
Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free” foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).
In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.
(b) The Set Position. Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop. From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot. Before assuming Set Position, the pitcher may elect to make any natural preliminary motion such as that known as “the stretch.” But if he so elects, he shall come to Set Position before delivering the ball to the batter. After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.
Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 8.01(b) without interruption and in one continuous motion.
The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop. This must be enforced. Umpires should watch this closely. Pitchers are constantly attempting to “beat the rule” in their efforts to hold runners on bases and in cases where the pitcher fails to make a complete “stop” called for in the rules, the umpire should immediately call a “Balk.”
Rule 8.01(b) Comment: With no runners on base, the pitcher is not required to come to a complete stop when using the Set Position. If, however, in the umpire’s judgment, a pitcher delivers the ball in a deliberate effort to catch the batter off guard, this delivery shall be deemed a quick pitch, for which the penalty is a ball. See Rule 8.05(e) Comment.
(c) At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.

[kepdawg]

I have always been under the impression that a would be balk is irrelevant if there is no base runner.

[Panther One]

I don't think there's a specific rule for a pitcher stopping his pitching motion with no runners on base. I once caught a pitcher who knocked is hat off during his windup, continued to throw the pitch for a strike, but a ball was awarded to the batter. It happened again a couple of games later. This time he just stopped his wind up, but again a ball was awarded. I can't say for certain, but I seem to recall a pitcher, maybe in a MLB game, that caught the cleat of his lead foot, didn't throw the ball, and a ball was awarded to the batter.

Major league baseball has the following rule (which I've never seen called) that seems like it could be applied to this situation. There has to be some kind of penalty for a pitcher who doesn't complete his pitching motion, even with no runners on base, or pitchers could stop their delivery any time they felt like it. You can't just stop because you didn't like your grip on the ball or because you were a bit off-balance. In my opinion, you made the proper call. I would have ruled the same. Let us know how it turns out.



8.04
When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call “Ball.” The 12-second timing starts when the pitcher is in possession of the ball and the batter is in the box, alert to the pitcher. The timing stops when the pitcher releases the ball.
The intent of this rule is to avoid unnecessary delays. The umpire shall insist that the catcher return the ball promptly to the pitcher, and that the pitcher take his position on the rubber promptly. Obvious delay by the pitcher should instantly be penalized by the umpire.

[Heffelfinger]

No balk.

[3afan]

to relate this to softball, just FYI .....

there are no balks, but there are illegal pitches (IP). in fastpitch you can have an IP with no one one base, and the result is either (1) the result of the play if the ball is hit, or (2) a ball on the batter - offensive team's choice.

i would ASSUME that baseball had someting similar ... but I dont know

(BTW, I had Garland 5, Plano West 1 last night ... good, fast game - game 2 tonight in McKinney ...)

[zebrablue2]

Originally posted by Astrosdawg07
Tonight I was calling a little league game, the pitcher started to pitch the ball but never finished through. He was pitching from the stretch and I called a balk and awarded the batter a ball. The coach protested the call saying you cannot call a balk with no runners on...Am I wrong here, the coach protested the game and we are awaiting a ruling from the league.


to my knowledge, in major boys-- age 11-12, there are no balks anymore. how old were these kids? either way, with no runners on, there is no balk, but i-pitch and a ball awarded the batter would be a possible call. there is no reason to protest the game IMO...

[BILLYFRED0000]

I think you made the correct call. It is a balk but no since no one was on base you could correctly award a ball to the batter. It is the intent of the rule to prevent pitchers from gaining possible advantage by disguising their delivery. It would be similar in nature to the quick pitch which also is disallowed.

[DaHop72]

Originally posted by zebrablue2
to my knowledge, in major boys-- age 11-12, there are no balks anymore. how old were these kids? either way, with no runners on, there is no balk, but i-pitch and a ball awarded the batter would be a possible call. there is no reason to protest the game IMO... You are correct, there are no balks in Little League anymore. If a pitcher balks now it is a ball.

[NastySlot]

isn't little league the league in which the runners can't leave base until the ball crosses the plate...so why would a pitcher even need to look a runner back and put himself in a position to balk....the the situation in post seems like it would just be an illegal pitch and a ball awarded.

[g$$]

Originally posted by Astrosdawg07
Tonight I was calling a little league game, the pitcher started to pitch the ball but never finished through. He was pitching from the stretch and I called a balk and awarded the batter a ball. The coach protested the call saying you cannot call a balk with no runners on...Am I wrong here, the coach protested the game and we are awaiting a ruling from the league.

1st = It's Little League, so no such thing as a balk. Balk rule at upper levels is in place to prevent deception of baserunners (which is subjective but for another day), so since they can't advance anyway until ball is hit or ball crosses home plate, who are you deceiving? There are 13 different ways to balk at higher levels of ball. Speaking of this, why is a LL kid pitching from the stretch anyway? His dad/coach probably thought that would help w/ wasted motion, etc. but instead it retards his overall development as a pitcher (w/ decreased velocity to boot for a kid that age). Learn the stretch later & pitch from the full wind-up in LL.

2nd = simply a no pitch, no harm & no foul. You do not award a ball to batter. Count picks up where it was before no pitch.

...& there is a delay rule where a ball can be awarded but it's not applicable here.

3rd = MLB rhp & HOF Don Sutton used to do this all the time (as do others). Stop & start over w/ nobody on base. Might be grip, balance, spikes caught, etc. but it happens. Again, just a no pitch & resume play. Nobody gained an advantage or was deceived.

4th = he protested a rule, not a judgement call, so I think his protest will stand. It would be different if a balk could be called & then it would be umpires' judgement (which cannot be protested). Basically you called something that does not exist. Pretty hot & heavy LL game to do that though by the manager.

What did your league say & what was eventually ruled? Hope that helps. You can't apply rules that don't exist & you must officiate the rules of the league you are calling at the time. That can get tricky I realize, I've been there too.

[g$$]

Originally posted by DaHop72
You are correct, there are no balks in Little League anymore. If a pitcher balks now it is a ball.

There is no balk in LL, period! Who is being deceived - the essence of the rule - anyway? It is a no pitch, no harm & no foul. Resume play. That's it.

In upper levels, it is still a no pitch w/ nobody on base.

Rules are in place guys, let's don't invent new ones on this board.

[g$$]

It's been 25 years since I played LL baseball, & almost 15 years since I umpired it as well. If there is a LL rule (& LL does have some differences) awarding a ball in this case, please let me know. I am confident about the older boy ball & beyond rules.

[g$$]

Originally posted by g$$
It's been 25 years since I played LL baseball, & almost 15 years since I umpired it as well. If there is a LL rule (& LL does have some differences) awarding a ball in this case, please let me know. I am confident about the older boy ball & beyond rules.

I called a D1 umpire tonight (does hs ball too). He confirmed what I posted above. The only caveat is IF there is a LL rule that differs from other higher levels of ball. This I do not know & I haven't umpired LL ball in many years.

What was final ruling by league on rule & protest? Thanks.

[RMAC]

Originally posted by g$$
I called a D1 umpire tonight (does hs ball too). He confirmed what I posted above. The only caveat is IF there is a LL rule that differs from other higher levels of ball. This I do not know & I haven't umpired LL ball in many years.

What was final ruling by league on rule & protest? Thanks.

It's an illegal pitch and the batter is awarded a ball. There are no balks, even if there are runners on base, only illegal pitches for majors (12 years) and under. Once you get to jrs, then you have balks.

[zebrablue2]

Originally posted by RMAC
It's an illegal pitch and the batter is awarded a ball. There are no balks, even if there are runners on base, only illegal pitches for majors (12 years) and under. Once you get to jrs, then you have balks.



I rest my case...

[GreenMonster]

Originally posted by RMAC
It's an illegal pitch and the batter is awarded a ball.

I concur.

[g$$]

Originally posted by RMAC
It's an illegal pitch and the batter is awarded a ball. There are no balks, even if there are runners on base, only illegal pitches for majors (12 years) and under. Once you get to jrs, then you have balks.

Cite the Little League rule please awarding a BALL (illegal pitch). I understand the point about BALKS. There is no such thing in LL due to the reasons we both listed. Thanks.

Like I said, I do not know all the LL rules as it has been way too long since I played it or umpired it. LL does have many differences from older boy baseball & beyond.

[GreenMonster]

Originally posted by g$$
Cite the Little League rule please awarding a BALL (illegal pitch). I understand the point about BALKS. There is no such thing in LL due to the reasons we both listed. Thanks.

Like I said, I do not know all the LL rules as it has been way too long since I played it or umpired it. LL does have many differences from older boy baseball & beyond.

I'd like to know if this is a sanctioned "Little League" game or is it just kid baseball in general? I have to go with illegal pitch and a ball being awarded to the batter same as it would be in high school etc.

[g$$]

Originally posted by GreenMonster
I'd like to know if this is a sanctioned "Little League" game or is it just kid baseball in general? I have to go with illegal pitch and a ball being awarded to the batter same as it would be in high school etc.

I am not doubting your knoweldge, just as I know ball too. We've both played it & umpired it. The point is I spoke to a D1 umpire who also does tons of hs ball too, & he says it is a no pitch, just as I stated. I want to see the rule cited so I can know the truth.

Obviously there is lots of confusion on this rule. I say no pitch, not a ball awarded on an "illegal pitch". I have seen this in MLB numerous times. No harm, no foul & resume count. We are in agreement that a balk does not exist in LL baseball for obvious reasons.

Maybe there is a LL rule - that I do NOT know. We all know LL has different rules in many cases.

[Astrosdawg07]

Ok the question as to what league it is, I just reffered it as little league, although the actual league is Texas Teenage Baseball. The league ruled that I did make the correct call in that the batter is awarded a ball. The did however tell me that it was a balk, but when no runners are on you call balk illegal pitch since no runners are on. So the protest was denied! I'm not even going to lie, I was very relieved when I heard the decision today. :D

[g$$]

Originally posted by Astrosdawg07
Ok the question as to what league it is, I just reffered it as little league, although the actual league is Texas Teenage Baseball. The league ruled that I did make the correct call in that the batter is awarded a ball. The did however tell me that it was a balk, but when no runners are on you call balk illegal pitch since no runners are on. So the protest was denied! I'm not even going to lie, I was very relieved when I heard the decision today. :D

Please cite the rule as I am going to relay this to the umpire I mentioned & see what he says, please. I guess we have a rules interpretation here...

How can you call something a balk when that is not possible at that level of ball? You can't balk when runners cannot be deceived (no lead-offs, no advantage gained, etc.)?

Who sanctions Texas Teenage Baseball?

[Astrosdawg07]

Originally posted by g$$
Please cite the rule as I am going to relay this to the umpire I mentioned & see what he says, please. I guess we have a rules interpretation here...

How can you call something a balk when that is not possible at that level of ball? You can't balk when runners cannot be deceived (no lead-offs, no advantage gained, etc.)?

Who sanctions Texas Teenage Baseball?

The balk move is deceiving to the batter is what he cited as, and Texas Teenage Baseball is a separate league (ex, Little League, Dixie, Deep East Texas. etc.) My supervisor is Glen Graves.

[g$$]

Originally posted by Astrosdawg07
The balk move is deceiving to the batter is what he cited as, and Texas Teenage Baseball is a separate league (ex, Little League, Dixie, Deep East Texas. etc.) My supervisor is Glen Graves.

That cannot be called a balk - the pure essence of the rule is not to deceive baserunners - so that is a misnomer. There are 13 different ways to balk by rule. You are saying Texas Teenage Baseball is separate from all others (like LL, Dixie, Babe Ruth, Pony, etc.)? The batter is unaffected by any of this anyway.

I still want to see this "illegal pitch" cited by rule w/ the awarding of a ball to batter...& is this exclusive to this league & age group?

[RMAC]

Originally posted by g$$
Cite the Little League rule please awarding a BALL (illegal pitch). I understand the point about BALKS. There is no such thing in LL due to the reasons we both listed. Thanks.

Like I said, I do not know all the LL rules as it has been way too long since I played it or umpired it. LL does have many differences from older boy baseball & beyond.

Sorry taking so long to get back. Adidas' fiance graduated law school today and it's been a long one. I don't have the book w/ me, but this was my 6th season and 2nd out here on Lubbock. That's not to say I'm right b/c I've been mistaken before, bu they take it pretty serious out here and from what I've been told by 2 or 3 guys that have all been to Williamsport in the last few years, that is the rule. We always joke that umpiring LL is easy, there's only 9 rules!:D

[g$$]

Originally posted by RMAC
Sorry taking so long to get back. Adidas' fiance graduated law school today and it's been a long one. I don't have the book w/ me, but this was my 6th season and 2nd out here on Lubbock. That's not to say I'm right b/c I've been mistaken before, bu they take it pretty serious out here and from what I've been told by 2 or 3 guys that have all been to Williamsport in the last few years, that is the rule. We always joke that umpiring LL is easy, there's only 9 rules!:D

Thanks, completely understand. Congrats to her as well.

I don't claim to know every rule & have blown some calls in my day too. But this deal is bugging me because of the confusion & varying array of answers. But oh well, we are going to learn something one way or another. The game will bring you to your knees sometimes if you're around it long enough!

I called another umpire friend tonight to confirm what I have posted. He also said NO PITCH, & no awarding of a ball to batter. These guys are D1 umps who also do some hs ball.

Again, is this a LL rule? And, as stated numerous times, there is no BALK in LL baseball for obvious reasons. No one is deceived & no one gained an advantage. The batter is unaffected by a balk call anyway (even if it was applicable). And, I do know about "delayed dead ball" & "dead ball" depending on level of play (hs, college, pro) too.

There are 2 times that I know of where a BALL is awarded to a batter:

1. Ball slips out of pitcher's hand in delivery to home plate & it crosses one of the foul lines = award BALL to batter's count. Ball must cross foul line for this to be applicable.

2. Pitcher goes to mouth while on rubber (hs/college) or to mouth when on dirt of mound (pro) = award BALL to batter's count. Exception: permission has been granted by umpires to blow on hands due to weather issues, thus not applicable in that case.

**There is the infrequently called delay rule too, but that is very subjective as well. These are the big ones above.

Looking for help here & I will keep checking too...

[coachc45]

Originally posted by g$$
Thanks, completely understand. Congrats to her as well.

I don't claim to know every rule & have blown some calls in my day too. But this deal is bugging me because of the confusion & varying array of answers. But oh well, we are going to learn something one way or another. The game will bring you to your knees sometimes if you're around it long enough!

I called another umpire friend tonight to confirm what I have posted. He also said NO PITCH, & no awarding of a ball to batter. These guys are D1 umps who also do some hs ball.

Again, is this a LL rule? And, as stated numerous times, there is no BALK in LL baseball for obvious reasons. No one is deceived & no one gained an advantage. The batter is unaffected by a balk call anyway (even if it was applicable). And, I do know about "delayed dead ball" & "dead ball" depending on level of play (hs, college, pro) too.

There are 2 times that I know of where a BALL is awarded to a batter:

1. Ball slips out of pitcher's hand in delivery to home plate & it crosses one of the foul lines = award BALL to batter's count. Ball must cross foul line for this to be applicable.

2. Pitcher goes to mouth while on rubber (hs/college) or to mouth when on dirt of mound (pro) = award BALL to batter's count. Exception: permission has been granted by umpires to blow on hands due to weather issues, thus not applicable in that case.

**There is the infrequently called delay rule too, but that is very subjective as well. These are the big ones above.

Looking for help here & I will keep checking too...

He said that it it TEXAS TEENAGE not little league. Texas Teenage do not use tight bases. They lead and steal from 9-10 on. Don't know the exact rule.... but TTBB is not Little League.

[g$$]

Originally posted by coachc45
He said that it it TEXAS TEENAGE not little league. Texas Teenage do not use tight bases. They lead and steal from 9-10 on. Don't know the exact rule.... but TTBB is not Little League.

I know that, I can read too. We talked about Texas Teenage above at length. And I am skeptical about that league anyway. Who sanctions it? The question is about this "illegal pitch" & why on earth you call something a balk when that is not possible (esp. since no runners on base).

Still waiting to see exact rule cited...

[sahen]

g$$ i think he is saying that the league told him the ruling is illegal pitch and he made a mistake by calling it a balk....so tech. he was not supposed to call it a balk since no runners were on, but an illegal pitch....he gave the batter a ball in the count for the illegal pitch which wouldve been the same result had he called it an illegal pitch therefore calling it a balk or illegal pitch w/ no one on base did not matter so his ruling stood and the protest was denied.....

as far as citing the actual rule i have no access to the texas teenage baseball rules so that can be someone else's job....

anyway, main thing is that it wasnt a balk, just an illegal pitch...it is weird that the pitcher did not throw the ball and it was still considered such and resulting in a ball but i guess that is a difference in the leagues rules....

[g$$]

Originally posted by g$$

There are 2 times that I know of where a BALL is awarded to a batter:

1. Ball slips out of pitcher's hand in delivery to home plate & it crosses one of the foul lines = award BALL to batter's count. Ball must cross foul line for this to be applicable.

2. Pitcher goes to mouth while on rubber (hs/college) or to mouth when on dirt of mound (pro) = award BALL to batter's count. Exception: permission has been granted by umpires to blow on hands due to weather issues, thus not applicable in that case.

**There is the infrequently called delay rule too, but that is very subjective as well. These are the big ones above.

Looking for help here & I will keep checking too...

Sahen - appreciate the help. I know what they are trying to say (not a balk), but I also am questioning this "illegal pitch" rule. I do not know of it nor do 2 D1 & hs umps I have also asked. Read what I posted above as to when a ball can be awarded.

To me, it is simply a no pitch. Resume count where it was before the no pitch, simple as that. Certainly not a balk...& the batter is unaffected anyway. I want to see specific rule cited no matter what the league is named.

[coachc45]

Originally posted by g$$
I know that, I can read too. We talked about Texas Teenage above at length. And I am skeptical about that league anyway. Who sanctions it? The question is about this "illegal pitch" & why on earth you call something a balk when that is not possible (esp. since no runners on base).

Still waiting to see exact rule cited...

Where did you talk about Texas Teenage? In everyone of your questions you ask if this is a LL rule. It is not an LL rule, wasn't even a game.

It is sanctioned by Texas Teenage Baseball/softball association.
http://www.texasteenage.org/

[CenTexSports]

There may not be a specific rule. It might be a umpiring mechanic that is dictated by that particular league or association. The fact that the umpire was backed up by the league indicates that this is how they wanted it called.

It is kind of like calling holding on Friday night. A hold away from the point of attack is still holding but it will not be called 95% of the time because of mechanic and chapter decisions.

[sahen]

Originally posted by g$$
Sahen - appreciate the help. I know what they are trying to say (not a balk), but I also am questioning this "illegal pitch" rule. I do not know of it nor do 2 D1 & hs umps I have also asked. Read what I posted above as to when a ball can be awarded.

To me, it is simply a no pitch. Resume count where it was before the no pitch, simple as that. Certainly not a balk...& the batter is unaffected anyway. I want to see specific rule cited no matter what the league is named.

i agree it is not normal to award a ball in the event that the pitcher does not throw the ball after the illegal delivery, but apparantly in this league it is (or it is supposed to be, judging from the appeal of the game this isnt the normal practice by umpires however the league office may want it to be)....its a weird rule cause on any other level it is a no pitch, but maybe they have their reasons...who knows...

[g$$]

Originally posted by sahen
i agree it is not normal to award a ball in the event that the pitcher does not throw the ball after the illegal delivery, but apparantly in this league it is (or it is supposed to be, judging from the appeal of the game this isnt the normal practice by umpires however the league office may want it to be)....its a weird rule cause on any other level it is a no pitch, but maybe they have their reasons...who knows...

Exactly my point.

[g$$]

Originally posted by coachc45
Where did you talk about Texas Teenage? In everyone of your questions you ask if this is a LL rule. It is not an LL rule, wasn't even a game.

It is sanctioned by Texas Teenage Baseball/softball association.
http://www.texasteenage.org/

Page 2 of this thread...& he originally called it a LL game, thus the confusion.

At every level I have either played, coached, or umpired this case is simply a no pitch. Certainly not a balk & not a "ball" awarded. Maybe TTB is different, & if so, that is stupid. Why make your league different than all others & create confusion? That makes no sense to me.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by RMAC
It's an illegal pitch and the batter is awarded a ball. There are no balks, even if there are runners on base, only illegal pitches for majors (12 years) and under. Once you get to jrs, then you have balks.
For the purposes of discussing the rules of Little League, RMAC is ALMOST correct (he had a good teacher back in his youth but must have missed a few minor details! ;) ). 3afan got it right for how this is called in Little League:


there are no balks, but there are illegal pitches (IP). in fastpitch you can have an IP with no one one base, and the result is either (1) the result of the play if the ball is hit, or (2) a ball on the batter - offensive team's choice.

As the homeplate umpire, I say "illegal pitch" as the act occurs. If the pitcher completes his delivery, then the offensive team (head coach) has the choice of a "ball" or the result of the play.

Little League doesn't post their green book (rule book) online and I don't have mine with me so citing the specific rule is pretty hard. You'll want to look at Rule 8.05.

As far as Texas Teenage goes...I'll see if I can dig it up but since I despise baseball that allows kids 12 and under (LL age) to lead off, steal, and doesn't control pitch counts. SAFETY FIRST PEOPLE! :mad:

Personally, I think this entire issue can be resolved by citing Rule 9.01(c) :D:D:D


Official Baseball Rule 9.01(c) gives them (the umpires) the discretion to rule on any point not otherwise covered by the Rules."

[g$$]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
For the purposes of discussing the rules of Little League, RMAC is ALMOST correct (he had a good teacher back in his youth but must have missed a few minor details! ;) ). 3afan got it right for how this is called in Little League:



As the homeplate umpire, I say "illegal pitch" as the act occurs. If the pitcher completes his delivery, then the offensive team (head coach) has the choice of a "ball" or the result of the play.

Little League doesn't post their green book (rule book) online and I don't have mine with me so citing the specific rule is pretty hard. You'll want to look at Rule 8.05.

As far as Texas Teenage goes...I'll see if I can dig it up but since I despise baseball that allows kids 12 and under (LL age) to lead off, steal, and doesn't control pitch counts. SAFETY FIRST PEOPLE! :mad:

Personally, I think this entire issue can be resolved by citing Rule 9.01(c) :D:D:D

Does the pitched ball have to cross a foul line like in older boy ball (to award a ball)? I completely agree with you on any league that allows those things 12 & under.

Like I said, I haven't umpired LL in 15 years or played it in 25 years. My point of reference now is older boy ball & beyond.

I have seen & called this a no pitch when no runners on base. No one gained an advantage & no one was deceived. But TTB may be totally different.

Hold on - the rule above says "fastpitch". As in softball?

And it also says completes delivery - the ball was never thrown, thus no completion of delivery.

So, no pitch?

[g$$]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there are no balks, ...

Exactly! Been saying that since page 1.

[DaHop72]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
For the purposes of discussing the rules of Little League, RMAC is ALMOST correct (he had a good teacher back in his youth but must have missed a few minor details! ;) ). 3afan got it right for how this is called in Little League:



As the homeplate umpire, I say "illegal pitch" as the act occurs. If the pitcher completes his delivery, then the offensive team (head coach) has the choice of a "ball" or the result of the play.

Little League doesn't post their green book (rule book) online and I don't have mine with me so citing the specific rule is pretty hard. You'll want to look at Rule 8.05.

As far as Texas Teenage goes...I'll see if I can dig it up but since I despise baseball that allows kids 12 and under (LL age) to lead off, steal, and doesn't control pitch counts. SAFETY FIRST PEOPLE! :mad:

Personally, I think this entire issue can be resolved by citing Rule 9.01(c) :D:D:D

8.01 (D) If the pitcher makes an illegal pitch with the bases unoccupied, it shall be call a ball unless the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise. A ball which slips out of the pitcher's hand and crossed the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called "no pitch" without runners on base, an an illegal pitch (A balk in Junior/Senior/Big League baseball) with runners on base.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by g$$
Does the pitched ball have to cross a foul line like in older boy ball (to award a ball)? I completely agree with you on any league that allows those things 12 & under.

Like I said, I haven't umpired LL in 15 years or played it in 25 years. My point of reference now is older boy ball & beyond.

I have seen & called this a no pitch when no runners on base. No one gained an advantage & no one was deceived. But TTB may be totally different.

Hold on - the rule above says "fastpitch". As in softball?

And it also says completes delivery - the ball was never thrown, thus no completion of delivery.

So, no pitch?
I was quoting what 3afan said...which he said does pertain to softball. The same 2 options apply to Little League:

1. IF the player stops during his delivery towards the plate and there are no runners on, you call it an illegal pitch (NOT a balk) and rule it a ball.

2. IF the player completes his delivery towards the plate and there are no runners on, the offensive coach can choose to a) take the result of the play or b) issue a ball against the defensive team.

The pitch doesn't have to cross a foul line to be called a ball. Case in point, pitcher stops his delivery but then continues and throws a strike. The ball doesn't cross a foul line persay but can still be ruled a ball.

A balk is in place to protect a runner from being deceived. The illegal pitch (in part) is to protect a batter from being deceived. If it wasn't, then there would be no penalty on a pitcher if he chose to stop his delivery and thus throw off the batter's timing.

[DaHop72]

New pitch count changes this year have made things tougher than they were last year, plus if you pitcher throws one pitch or more from the rubber he is not allowed to catch during the game.:mad: :mad:

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by DaHop72
8.01 (D) If the pitcher makes an illegal pitch with the bases unoccupied, it shall be call a ball unless the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise. A ball which slips out of the pitcher's hand and crossed the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called "no pitch" without runners on base, an an illegal pitch (A balk in Junior/Senior/Big League baseball) with runners on base.
Thanks...now can you post 9.01 (c)? That rule makes me smile!!! :D :D :D

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by DaHop72
New pitch count changes this year have made things tougher than they were last year, plus if you pitcher throws one pitch or more from the rubber he is not allowed to catch during the game.:mad: :mad:
That's an interesting change. Is it a safety change to minimize the stress/impact/burden on his arm even further? I think that might be a bit excessive but I definitely see their point.

[DaHop72]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
That's an interesting change. Is it a safety change to minimize the stress/impact/burden on his arm even further? I think that might be a bit excessive but I definitely see their point. I agree with you but I guess they figure after throwing up to 85 pitches if the pitcher moved to catcher and had to try and throw out a base runner that it would put even more stress on their arm.

[DaHop72]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Thanks...now can you post 9.01 (c)? That rule makes me smile!!! :D :D :D
9.01 (c) Each umpire has the authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules. :2thumbsup :2thumbsup

[g$$]

Originally posted by DaHop72
8.01 (D) If the pitcher makes an illegal pitch with the bases unoccupied, it shall be call a ball unless the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise. A ball which slips out of the pitcher's hand and crossed the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called "no pitch" without runners on base, an an illegal pitch (A balk in Junior/Senior/Big League baseball) with runners on base.

So we are all right in some regard. Y'all are quoting the LL rule. I am quoting the older boy leagues. Both are listed above.