Texas baseball: Augie = Gus using pitchers lately?

[g$$]

**Check this out. This is for informational purposes & not intended to stir any pot. I would post the same regarding any pitcher from any school being used this way. Pitchers in the old days threw well over 100 pitches often but very rare to go past 110-115 (tops) now.**

UT's freshman stud pitcher Chance Ruffin (dad is Bruce Ruffin, former UT/MLB pitcher): Ruffin is 6-3 w/ a 1.91 ERA on year

--Against OK State 2 weekends ago he threw 10 innings (104 pitches) on Fri. night, got a ND, & Texas eventually lost...

--He came back 2 days later (Sun.) in relief to face 3 batters (15 pitches), committed an error & gave up 2 hits. He didn't have much left in the tank (understandably) before being taken out of game. He took the tough loss too...

--Ruffin pitched last Fri. & beat K-State throwing 6.1 IP (109 pitches) before exiting...

--Last night (Fri.), he threw 150 pitches (yes 150) in a complete game win over Baylor. Texas won 12-1 & had the game in hand yet he was not pulled even with a 10-1 lead late in game.

You can bet your paycheck that rival coaches, parents of recruits, & pro scouts are taking note of this. I realize that Augie has little faith in his bullpen. But, he is risking hurting a kid forever with arm/shoulder troubles. Coach Gus was well-known for this in baseball circles & towards the end of his tenure it hurt him too. EX: the way he used & abused AA Kirk Dressendorfer, who never recovered after arm problems & pro career was cut short. Augie has never been known for this, even redshirted Adrian Alaniz his 1st year because of a tired arm from hs days as a precaution. It helped Alaniz too & he is doing well in the minors now.

These pitching #s are just games, not bullpens during week or warm-up time in a game. Strange year for Texas on & off the field. Skip Johnson (pitching coach) obviously should be mentioned here too but Augie is the man in charge.

Thoughts?

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by g$$
--Last night (Fri.), he threw 150 pitches (yes 150) in a complete game win over Baylor. Texas won 12-1 & had the game in hand yet he was not pulled even with a 10-1 lead late in game.
There is no excuse for this. This is the kind of stuff that can ruin a kids future. It's just not worth it, especially with a big lead.:thmbdwn: :thmbdwn:

[Manck]

The thing to note is with the exception of that 15 pitch performance from the pen, all of those were on six days of rest, unlike the normal four that a ML pitcher gets.

College pitchers at almost all levels seem to have inflated pitch counts when they are performing well. Pitchers with low pitch counts usually got blasted from a game.

I have next to no knowledge of Texas baseball, outside of about an inning I watched of today's game against Baylor, but that's something I noticed as an official scorer for our Division II team in SC.

I'm just looking at a couple of Newberry's pitchers in complete games this season (that we have pitch counts for... don't always get that from the road team in the official box.)
- April 11, 2-0 W, 128 pitches, 9.0 innings
- March 29, 2-1 W, 94 pitches, 9.0 IP
And those are in games we didn't get hit, which were really rare this year, so I guess it's something that's not just happening at UT

[g$$]

Originally posted by Manck
The thing to note is with the exception of that 15 pitch performance from the pen, all of those were on six days of rest, unlike the normal four that a ML pitcher gets.

College pitchers at almost all levels seem to have inflated pitch counts when they are performing well. Pitchers with low pitch counts usually got blasted from a game.

I have next to no knowledge of Texas baseball, outside of about an inning I watched of today's game against Baylor, but that's something I noticed as an official scorer for our Division II team in SC.

I'm just looking at a couple of Newberry's pitchers in complete games this season (that we have pitch counts for... don't always get that from the road team in the official box.)
- April 11, 2-0 W, 128 pitches, 9.0 innings
- March 29, 2-1 W, 94 pitches, 9.0 IP
And those are in games we didn't get hit, which were really rare this year, so I guess it's something that's not just happening at UT

True, but risking a kid's future is senseless. And 150 pitches is insane esp. with a huge lead. You can't compare MLB to college straight-up, but there are limits to everything. And to bring a kid back less than 2 days later after a 10 inning outing, well that's awfully risky & not very smart.

[Manck]

Originally posted by g$$
True, but risking a kid's future is senseless. And 150 pitches is insane esp. with a huge lead. You can't compare MLB to college straight-up, but there are limits to everything. The more I think about it...

The kid with those two performances I threw up there HAD our best shot at being drafted going into the season, but started the season 0-7 (with NO run support... still bitter about that...).

However, I doubt he hits 85 on the gun EVER.

Our freshman who hits mid-90s only had one complete game all season (in which he had 17 Ks, just two short of the conference record), and has had a pretty strict pitch limit this year.

We had another soft-tosser whose limit was non-existent.

I don't know anything about the UT kid, but maybe that has something to do with it? Our slower guys would throw a complete game and try and convince coach to go back out for the back half of a doubleheader if they were pitching well.

[g$$]

Originally posted by Manck
The more I think about it...

The kid with those two performances I threw up there HAD our best shot at being drafted going into the season, but started the season 0-7 (with NO run support... still bitter about that...).

However, I doubt he hits 85 on the gun EVER.

Our freshman who hits mid-90s only had one complete game all season (in which he had 17 Ks, just two short of the conference record), and has had a pretty strict pitch limit this year.

We had another soft-tosser whose limit was non-existent.

I don't know anything about the UT kid, but maybe that has something to do with it? Our slower guys would throw a complete game and try and convince coach to go back out for the back half of a doubleheader if they were pitching well.

No, Ruffin pitches in the low 90s & will touch 94-95 mph. He is not a soft tosser. He is a power pitcher with a hard slider as well. 2-seamers & 4-seamers, occasional change. I understand your point though. Different deal, they're just riding his arm to get wins right now. And risking his future. I wonder what dad Bruce feels about it behind the scenes?

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by g$$
No, Ruffin pitches in the low 90s & will touch 94-95 mph. He is not a soft tosser. He is a power pitcher with a hard slider as well. 2-seamers & 4-seamers, occasional change. I understand your point though. Different deal, they're just riding his arm to get wins right now. And risking his future. I wonder what dad Bruce feels about it behind the scenes?

Even though Bruce Ruffin, early in his career, pitched in the day that pitchers were expected to go late in every game, can't imagine that he is not livid behind the scenes. If this keeps up young Ruffin may become a soft tosser through no fault of his own! Very risky.

[Panther One]

He should make Boyd's list next week. Check out some of the numbers on there...

http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html

[Panther One]

After Kasparek threw 9 innings and 113 pitches against Texas State on Tuesday, Augie put him back on the mound today for 8 innings and 123 pitches. I don't think you can take issue with using Kasparek again, given that Texas is off next weekend, but leaving him out there for another 123 pitches was probably a little much.

[eagles_victory]

Mel Clarke threw 156 pitches in the closest game to go to the playoffs for the Angels in 94 but other then that you never see MLB guys get over about 115 or 120.

[Phil C]

I agree with g$$ that no one should risk young pitcher's careers or health under any circumstances. UT was known for that under Gus so I hope this trend doesn't continue if it is actually starting.

[Panther One]

Originally posted by Phil C
I agree with g$$ that no one should risk young pitcher's careers or health under any circumstances. UT was known for that under Gus so I hope this trend doesn't continue if it is actually starting.
I don't think it'll become a trend that will carry over into next season. I just think it's an all out effort by Augie to win some games as the season winds down and get the team going before the post season. He obviously has lost faith in his bullpen.

[GoStafford]

this is where you just say "coach, i can't go out any more, got a burning sensation in my arm..."

[g$$]

Originally posted by Panther One
After Kasparek threw 9 innings and 113 pitches against Texas State on Tuesday, Augie put him back on the mound today for 8 innings and 123 pitches. I don't think you can take issue with using Kasparek again, given that Texas is off next weekend, but leaving him out there for another 123 pitches was probably a little much.

Agreed Panther. And also agreed on why Augie is doing this too. Texas is desperate to win games at all costs right now (now 12-12 in league play), so it seems. That's 236 pitches for Kasparek since Tuesday in 2 ballgames - not counting a bullpen Friday & warm-ups - for a kid coming off Tommy John elbow surgery a year ago. That is very Gus-like & risking injury or at the very least ineffectiveness down the stretch (fatigue often leads to injury as well). I don't agree with any team or coach doing this & risking a kid's future.

[eagles_victory]

Remember a few years ago when Oakland drafted some pitcher out of Cal St Fullerton with their first round pick and Fullerton was in the world series that year and had that kid throw several pitches. The A's ended up complaining about it to the coaching staff becuase they thought it was too many innings.

[coachc45]

I ain't a baseball guy... never claimed to be. But I do know a little. Pitch counts are way over-rated. In many countries around the world 150 to 200 pitch counts are very common. The funny thing is those guys are coming to this country and dominating in the majors. Why..... they train to throw that way.

Also if you think an ex- major league pitcher will sit back quietly and let Augie ruin his kids future.... you are crazy. The best explanation for Bruce Ruffin being quiet, is he doesn't think anything is wrong with it.

[offduty]

if we played in japan, he could probably start the next game too! ;)

[g$$]

Originally posted by coachc45
I ain't a baseball guy... never claimed to be. But I do know a little. Pitch counts are way over-rated. In many countries around the world 150 to 200 pitch counts are very common. The funny thing is those guys are coming to this country and dominating in the majors. Why..... they train to throw that way.

Also if you think an ex- major league pitcher will sit back quietly and let Augie ruin his kids future.... you are crazy. The best explanation for Bruce Ruffin being quiet, is he doesn't think anything is wrong with it.

The issue is not as much pitch counts as it is long, stressful outings & then bringing the kid back on short rest (like Ruffin 10 IP on a Friday then back on Sunday). Esp. if the kid has just had surgery a year ago (like Kasparek).

You nailed the key thing: training. Kids today in this country are not trained that way so can't be expected to all of a sudden be extended like that. Simply a recipe for disaster. And, how do any of us know what Bruce Ruffin is saying behind the scenes? I would bet he's not real happy about it. Parents are in a tough spot on this type deal, damned if you do & damned if you don't. Kid wants the ball to help team & parents don't want to rock the boat.

You can't compare USA to Japan. What foreigners are dominating so much in our game now? Dice-K is not nearly as effective over here after years of being overused In Japan (plus he's older, velocity down). He's still good but not a true ace. You also can't compare the old days to now either. The game has changed to include more bullpen specific roles & kids are not trained to throw 120 + pitches regularly. Apples & oranges argument.

Plus, Kasparek is coming off elbow surgery. I guarantee you that pro scouts have taken notice & will use this when negotiating with potential hs draft picks. So will parents of recruits & rival coaches. It is just too risky. I had a scout with the Astros tell me years ago that he would never draft a "Cliff Gustafson coached pitcher" because he is damaged goods. Remember, Clemens was a juco guy who really did not pitch lots of innings at Texas. Swindell, Dressendorfer, & others were overused at Texas.

**The Fullerton kid did throw a lot. He had a great change-up as his out pitch, not a hard thrower. There was still concern about overwork. He is still in the minors, fyi.

[g$$]

Dice-K once threw 148 pitches in a complete game win, then came back the next day to throw 250 pitches in 17 IP while in Japan. Yes, you read that right.

Being trained & conditioned differently is one thing, but that is absurd. He left his "A" game in Japan too - still good but not dominant. Plus MLB is a better league overall too than Japanese pro ball. Our leftovers go over there to play; their best want to play here & some do. You can't compare USA & Japan on many levels.

Again, I ask who are these foreigners dominating our league? The Latin players don't grow up throwing like the Japanese guys. Most Latinos are signed early & groomed by our guys & our methods.

[coachc45]

Yes you can count Latin Players. While they are signed early, they still are trained to pitch in their country using their coaches and techniques. It is due to these techniques and training that they are dominate. US people over blow these things in order to prove that pitch counts mean so much.

Also, many coaches.... including major league coaches..... have no problem with throwing on 2 days rest. Pitch game, rest and condition day, throwing session off mound day, rest and gear up day... pitch. If not done on a regular basis.... throwing an inning of live work on your regularly scheduled throwing day is not considered a problem. By almost anyone. You don't see it more in the majors because of the long season and the abundance of good relievers.

[g$$]

Originally posted by coachc45
I ain't a baseball guy... never claimed to be.

You have proved that by what you have said. Latin kids (prospects) are almost exclusively scouted, signed, trained, & developed by American teams, often in Academies financially supported by MLB teams. Latinos can sign when they are 16 years old.

Pitching on 2 days rest is fine for a reliever, often back-to-back days too, dependent upon many factors. Starters are what is in question here. The pitch counts do matter, esp. for those coming off injury & surgery. Most starters follow this routine: gameday, off day/run, bullpen, shag & run, flat ground throwing session, rest & chart, next game. Some throw 2 pens between starts.

We obviously disagree. Comparing Latin players to what is done in Japan is grossly inaccurate. I challenge you to research Japanese baseball (pitchers/players) & what they do on a daily basis compared to over here. They often have a full practice on gamedays too. Totally different model.

[coachc45]

I'm not gonna argue with you.... I know they are signed early, I know that the "academies" are financed by MLB teams, I also know that the people who run them are not American born players. They are Latino and they use Latino training ideas. Since the academies are usually conglomerates and not individual team owned, they hire local ex-MLBers to coach along with their roving Latin based instructors. Most of these are from the Latino winter leagues and regular leagues.

Go to Latin America in the winter ball and see if the MLBers in those leagues are using the MLB training regiments or the Latino regiments.

Try reading up on the academies and the people who run them, read about the differences in training methods, and the cultural differences that make the American Baseball people accept them.

I respect that you know alot of baseball and are well versed in it.... doesn't mean that others don't know what they are talking about and deserve the same respect.

Comparing American Pitchers and how they are coddled to the techniques of the rest of the world shows ignorance. NO ONE can go into Latin america and force American training ideas on those people. Heck, you can't even go into a Latino community in Houston and change them.

[c-town_balla]

Maybe we should look into the Mike Marshall training method....and be able to pitch unlimited innings



New Pitching Style (http://www.drmikemarshall.com/)

[Panther One]

Aside from the fact that modern medicine has helped us realize the importance of pitch limits, the reason it's so prevalent today in MLB is money. In the old days, they had no problem using up a pitcher and moving on to the next one. When you're paying a guy millions, you do what you can to keep him healthy.

I don't care where you live or how you train, the human arm has limitations and pitch counts and proper rest are important. You can't make generalizations about pitchers in a certain area of the world, because every individual has his own limitations. There's plenty of American born pitchers who would have no trouble throwing 130+ every time out. Others may reach their limit around 85-90. You can train all you want, however you want, but you're never going to overcome your body's limitations. Through studies, 100 pitches has become the magic number for pitch counts. It's not only a good limit, but also when most pitchers begin to lose their effectiveness to the point that you"re better off with a relief pitcher.

The way baseball is managed in the US now-a-days, there's no reason to continuously extend a pitcher. Whether a pitcher can handle it or not, why put unneeded stress on his arm? It's always best to err in the side of caution because who really knows what each individual can endure? There's plenty of Latin American pitchers in professional baseball with arm problems. It's not like they have the secret for extending pitchers without the risk of injury. In terms of health and longevity, training is often over emphasized. The longevity of guys like Clemens and Ryan is often attributed to their work ethic, but there are guys that have worked just as hard, that, for one reason or another, just wore down. An arm only has so much. Pitch limits and rest can go a long way toward lengthening a career. More daddies need to realize this instead of throwing their kid out on a mound year round in select ball. It's in young kids that pitch limits are most important.

[g$$]

Originally posted by coachc45
I'm not gonna argue with you.... I know they are signed early, I know that the "academies" are financed by MLB teams, I also know that the people who run them are not American born players. They are Latino and they use Latino training ideas. Since the academies are usually conglomerates and not individual team owned, they hire local ex-MLBers to coach along with their roving Latin based instructors. Most of these are from the Latino winter leagues and regular leagues.

Go to Latin America in the winter ball and see if the MLBers in those leagues are using the MLB training regiments or the Latino regiments.

Try reading up on the academies and the people who run them, read about the differences in training methods, and the cultural differences that make the American Baseball people accept them.

I respect that you know alot of baseball and are well versed in it.... doesn't mean that others don't know what they are talking about and deserve the same respect.

Comparing American Pitchers and how they are coddled to the techniques of the rest of the world shows ignorance. NO ONE can go into Latin america and force American training ideas on those people. Heck, you can't even go into a Latino community in Houston and change them.

Wrong - MLB operated academies are run by mainly ex-player Latinos (due to language, acceptance, etc.), under the strict orders of the parent MLB club (or clubs). Our guidelines are followed strictly or people are out of a job. More clubs today run their own too, but some are still conglomerates. These players/coaches are the property of the parent clubs, so of course they have full authority over the ins & outs of daily procedures.

When I worked for the Astros, our Venezuelan Academy (which produced R. Hidalgo, B. Abreu, J. Santana, C. Guillen, etc.) was run by Andres Reiner, who did exactly what the Astros told him to do in regards to how everything was run to how players are used. Reiner found the kids then the Astros implemented the program. Reiner now works for former Astros GM Gerry Hunsicker & the TB Rays. They even teach the English language, etc. too. I know full-well how this stuff works because I have worked in Baseball Operations at the MLB level. Some teams are different, yes, but all in all they do what they are told because that's where the funding is coming from to pay the costs & salaries (which are minimal at that level for prospects usually). There is constant communication & visits by MLB staff too during the year. You're hoping to find a few diamonds in the rough & develop them. They are not left to run the things unchecked & without supervision. They do as they are told, period (how that compares to your Latino reference in a city is beyond me, different deal altogether).

The Astros just opened a new academy in the Dominican Republic. Who was there to scout the kids & make sure everything was in order?...new Astros' Scouting Director Bobby Heck last week. That should tell you right there who makes the decisions: the parent club supplying the $$ & resources.

Panther nailed it: the arm only has so much in it over time. Exceptions are guys like Ryan & Clemens, & both had minor surgeries during their careers too. Pitchers break down & always will no matter how much training - it is an unnatural throwing motion for our ball & socket design, plus the strain on the elbow. The 100 pitch limit has been tested & studied. It is not 100% accurate either. Guys in the old days pitched basically until they couldn't anymore. Now, bullpens have more specific roles & the $$ is much greater. Teams want to protect their investments.

It is not so much how you train or where you were born. It's how to maximize the individual player thru training, rest/maintenance, proper instruction, etc. And, you can bet MLB teams are very cautious with the $$ out there today. It is sad to see kids used up by "Little League & select ball dads & coaches" who have no clue & hurt a kid before he has a true chance. I respect your knowledge too - just asking for accuracy. I agree we coddle the guys more today, but the reason is $$ (salaries, investment, time, etc.). Who can blame them? The new areas teams for exploring are the Far East & Pacific Rim with academies & clinics trying to find talent. And those are under the MLB teams' auspices as well for all the same reasons.