The Integrity and Morals of Professional Teams

[Txbroadcaster]

The round and round debate about TO( which began with the Pacman talk) got me thinking

What is the Morals and integrity of a Professional team?

Is it more important to have a succesful team on the field even if you have a few bad apples( not talking about rapists or killers to that extreme) which in turn makes you money

Or is the image of the team, no problems off the field, but might not be as good more important?

[injuredinmelee]

I sued to wonder about this also. Now with a young son who mimics everything he sees athletes do, I choose the team that has the high integrity individuals. Was Charles Barkley right when he said I am not a role model? He didnt choose to be one and are they obligated to be one is another question that stirs up debate. I am up in the air with this one. They dont have to be if they dont want to be. If the exhibit traits that I dont want my son to see I will change the channel, but I also dont feel it is their obligation to be. I will raise my own children and instill the values and things I feel are important in them. I dont rely on their teachers or people on TV to do so.

[Necks_Fan]

There are plenty of great players (Ex. Warrick Dunn) that have the ability as well as the attitude. No need to ruin the reputation of a franchise just for some player who can't act right. I value morals and ethics above everything else.

[Gobbla2001]

there's nothing I like to see more than a team that just plays the game without the extra non-sense... it's refreshing... but at the same time the goal is to win games, and however you can get that done without cheating is fine by me...

as for celebrations, you know I'm torn on that... like I said, I like the no non-sense type of game, where you act like you've been there... but at the same time when I saw TO do the popcorn deal I laughed my butt off because I have a sense of humor... plus this is a different day and age, this isn't 30 years ago, people are more loose and relaxed these days... I'm really starting to not care... that was their past generation 30 yrs ago, this is our generation...

[g$$]

I believe there is a way to win & do it the right way too. Maybe I am idealistic, but I believe it can be done & should be the goal.

However, I'm a realist & realize you will never have a bunch of choir boys holding hands & singing kumbaya around the fire either. You can have passion & fight without being a thug or egomaniac. Where do you draw the line? Seems to me Roger Goodell is cracking down in the NFL. David Stern has done the same in the NBA. MLB is making changes (slowly).

Key is careful drafting & researching backgrounds. That does not always work either. But you act swiftly & decisively when problems occur. Criminal behavior is far different than dealing with egos. That's just part of the job description.

So yes, morals/ethics/integrity all matter to me. It's big business but that does not excuse "anything goes, just win baby". Hope that answers it for you from my perspective.

[bandera7]

for those that said morals were more important...sorry, but that is probably the excuse of the losing franchises.

Morals are important, and should be addressed AFTER winning, because like it was said, football is big business. You dont win, you lose your job, period. Therefore, as long as the player/coach isnt doing something outrageous, winning has priority

[g$$]

Originally posted by bandera7
for those that said morals were more important...sorry, but that is probably the excuse of the losing franchises.

Morals are important, and should be addressed AFTER winning, because like it was said, football is big business. You dont win, you lose your job, period. Therefore, as long as the player/coach isnt doing something outrageous, winning has priority

I believe they can go hand-in-hand. Winning does not have to come before rules & discipline & punishment. That's like saying let chaos rule & then we will address the problem later. That's called anarchy. How would you feel if your local high school operated that way?

People resist structure but ultimately want it too (kids are prime examples). Sure, jobs are on the line in big business sports. But it's the same thing with big business anything - you must have rules & they must be adhered to in order to function smoothly & for everyone to perform to the best of their abilities. Sports or any line of work...

Big Business does not have to equal No Morals or Integrity. I strongly disagree with that.

[Macarthur]

I agree with g$$ to a point. You don't have to sacrifice integrity and sportsmaship for winning.

However, I do think there is a huge amount of hypocricy by some folks when it comes to this subject.

I think way too many people like to pick on another teams warts, while in reality, all teams have warts.

I tend to lean towards that side of: Sports is entertainment to me. As long as guys don't rape and murder and reasonably follow the law, I really don't care about their personal life. Now, Pacman certainly walks that line. If the Cowboys get him, I will probably cheer because I'm a Cowboys fan, and can't really help that.

I do think he should be give a fresh start with a very short leash. I would be very supportive of the Cowboys cutting ties if he slips up.

Here's the thing, that most of us that were not great athletes need to remember. These guys have been told they are great ever since they were little kids because they could run faster, jump higher, hit the ball farther, etc., than all the other kids. The normal societal rules did not apply to them. Now, all the sudden in their early 20s, they are given millions of dollars. If you add in the fact that many of these kids grew up in disadvantaged families/neighborhoods, then you have a recipe for danger.

I'm not excusing their behavior. All I'm saying is that if I had been handed a couple of million dollars at 22, and women swarming me, I'm not sure I would have always made the right decisions.

And keep in mind, there a study that came out recently that says that the "judgement" area of your brain isn't fully developed until you reach about 24 or 25.

I just think we need to be a little less judemental about these things. That doesn't mean that folks shouldn't pay consquenses, but we should be a little more willing to give second chances (sometimes third ;)).

[themsu97]

true Macaurthur... but the difference with Pacman was when he was supposed to meet with Goodell about his suspension where was he the night before? at a strip club...

he is different from the rest because he stays in trouble... and now is trying to say that he will not apply for reinstatement until he is traded? what gives him the power to stand on any legs?

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by themsu97
true Macaurthur... but the difference with Pacman was when he was supposed to meet with Goodell about his suspension where was he the night before? at a strip club...

he is different from the rest because he stays in trouble... and now is trying to say that he will not apply for reinstatement until he is traded? what gives him the power to stand on any legs?

Actually I bet that is a decision by his agent..They are banking on him being traded to Dallas...So when he meets the Commish as a Cowboy he can use the I am under the guidance of Calvin Hill and his program in Dallas which has drawn high praise across the league.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by themsu97
true Macaurthur... but the difference with Pacman was when he was supposed to meet with Goodell about his suspension where was he the night before? at a strip club...

he is different from the rest because he stays in trouble... and now is trying to say that he will not apply for reinstatement until he is traded? what gives him the power to stand on any legs?

broadcaster is right. This was not really a defiant move by Pacman; it really is smart on thier part.

No question Pacman is a bad apple. However, I do think he should be granted another chance. If he blows this one, I have no issue with the league dismissing him permanently.

[g$$]

Good points Macarthur, but I will never condone thuggish behavior (as you said too). There are limits to everything in life. 2nd & 3rd chances should be earned not granted.

Look at the NFL's Bengals: multiple guys have been arrested, some suspended, some locked up, now Odell Thurman is back, Chris Henry is gone, & what is there to show for it? Nothing. That kinda debunks the theory of win 1st & make rules later, huh, proposed by a poster earlier?

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by g$$


Look at the NFL's Bengals: multiple guys have been arrested, some suspended, some locked up, now Odell Thurman is back, Chris Henry is gone, & what is there to show for it? Nothing. That kinda debunks the theory of win 1st & make rules later, huh, proposed by a poster earlier?

yes and no...The Yanks of the 50's early 60's won title after title with two of their best players( Whitey Ford and Mickey Mantle) known as partyers who the media and to an exten even the police kept under wraps

The late 70's Yanks won with a roster of "colorful" characters

as did the 1970's Raiders..and the 90's Cowboys

The Cowboys of the 70's won with a different persona, as did the 80's 49ers and this decade's Patriots

point is..character was not the overriding thing..talent was

[g$$]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
yes and no...The Yanks of the 50's early 60's won title after title with two of their best players( Whitey Ford and Mickey Mantle) known as partyers who the media and to an exten even the police kept under wraps

The late 70's Yanks won with a roster of "colorful" characters

as did the 1970's Raiders..and the 90's Cowboys

The Cowboys of the 70's won with a different persona, as did the 80's 49ers and this decade's Patriots

point is..character was not the overriding thing..talent was

True, & I know all about all those teams. We know more now, probably too much, but thuggish behavior (Pacman, 6 arrests since 1995) is way different than being colorful. Mantle & Ford were heavy drinkers & womanizers, not thugs. Not condoning it, but still different.

Talent will always be the great equalizer. How a team handles those problems is the key (mgmt., leadership, veterans, etc.). Bengals have failed miserably in this regard.

[BobcatBenny]

In the words of Forrest Gump, "Show me the Money!"

Money drives the morals on professional teams, not social standards.

Just win baby!

And . . . do not get caught cheating. But . . . if you do get caught, we will throw money at it! :eek:

[g$$]

Originally posted by BobcatBenny
In the words of Forrest Gump, "Show me the Money!"

Money drives the morals on professional teams, not social standards.

Just win baby!

And . . . do not get caught cheating. But . . . if you do get caught, we will throw money at it! :eek:

And that's sad too. Microcosm of society as a whole.

[bandera7]

I didnt suggest (or mean to anyway) that morals should be thrown out to win the game. What I meant was that Personal Morals dont matter as much as talent when signing a player in the NFL. Sure, you wont pick up a charles manson like guy. But at the same time, he likes to party some, well he scores the touchdowns. You cant say no to a talented guy that does things that are not illegal and will win you games. As long as it stays at home and he doesnt bring it to the job with him, so be it.

[g$$]

Originally posted by bandera7
I didnt suggest (or mean to anyway) that morals should be thrown out to win the game. What I meant was that Personal Morals dont matter as much as talent when signing a player in the NFL. Sure, you wont pick up a charles manson like guy. But at the same time, he likes to party some, well he scores the touchdowns. You cant say no to a talented guy that does things that are not illegal and will win you games. As long as it stays at home and he doesnt bring it to the job with him, so be it.

Then how do you feel about Pacman Jones, based on above? Been arrested 6 times since 2005 when he was drafted. Lots of illegal stuff. Do you make a deal to get him as Jerry Jones is considering?

I say you can say NO to thugs & still win. You must have rules, discipline, & consequences for your actions. I realize nobody will have choir boys, but you can strive for solid, reliable, & talented guys to get the job done. You can't trust guys like Pacman. Too much at stake to put your faith in guys like him.

[bandera7]

To me, Pacman has reached the outrageous stage. It isnt like he is hosting parties at home or doing anything that many adults enjoy doing also. He is getting into serious legal trouble. To me, that is past the point of a player I would want. I could handle wild guys. But not stupid ones.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by g$$
Good points Macarthur, but I will never condone thuggish behavior (as you said too). There are limits to everything in life. 2nd & 3rd chances should be earned not granted.

Look at the NFL's Bengals: multiple guys have been arrested, some suspended, some locked up, now Odell Thurman is back, Chris Henry is gone, & what is there to show for it? Nothing. That kinda debunks the theory of win 1st & make rules later, huh, proposed by a poster earlier?

I agree with you, and frankly, given this last development on Pacman, I'm not of the position that the Cowboys need to move on and forget about Pacman.

I don't think he's going to get reinstated.