Can anyone answer this....

[NastySlot]

while doing on base percentages today.....I can't understand way reaching on a fielders choice or an error doesn't work to the batter runners advantage... why arent' they factors in the formula anyone know? it might be something simple...but i don't see it.

[pirate4state]

good question, i hope someone knows

[kepdawg]

Maybe the batter doesn't get credit for being on base when he shouldn't have been (error) or could have not been (fielder's choice)?

[NastySlot]

Originally posted by kepdawg
Maybe the batter doesn't get credit for being on base when he shouldn't have been (error) or could have not been (fielder's choice)?

sounds good.....but it hurts cause they did reach. and the ab counts against their avg....rules are rules.

[trojan37]

When a person draws a walk, why doesn't that ab count?

[PPHSfan]

Originally posted by NastySlot
sounds good.....but it hurts cause they did reach. and the ab counts against their avg....rules are rules.

It counts the same as if they had grounded out, which is the same as a fielders choice. They failed to hit the ball in a way that would have put them on base. Nothing unfair at all.

[coxjj]

On a fielder's choice, the fielder decided to get another runner out instead of the batter. Therefore, it was not a positive result for the team, so the batter is not credited with "getting on base".

Reached on an error, to me, is a different matter. The reasoning is obviously that the batter shouldn't have reached base because the defense messed up, but I would bet that a good hitter would often have more "reaches on an error" because they hit the ball hard, aiding in the error being committed. To me, reaching on an error ought to count in OBP because the team benefitted. Whether the batter was lucky or a hard hitter shouldn't matter. But that's just my opinion.

[Texasfootball2]

Originally posted by trojan37
When a person draws a walk, why doesn't that ab count?

If they counted it as an AB. Then someone like Barry Bonds could end up batting below .100 instead of batting around .300, especially when he draw over 100+ intentional walks some years. I know your thinking? "OK, I can see intentional walks, but not all walks are intentional, shouldn't those count?" Good though you had there and to some extent I agree, but it's too subjective to ask an official scorekeeper to distinguish between which type of walk to draw the line on. Sometimes pitchers, pitch around a batter and walk them even though to the average fan it looks like a four or five pitch walk. Batting averages are a sacred mark for how good of an offensive player you are and if walks counted as AB's batting averages would plummet way down and strike outs would sky rocket because most batters would rather go down swinging trying to put it in play rather than walk because it hurts your avg. and there is so much $$$$ rapped up in insentives these days, being a team player would no longer exist. The game would not be the same.

[coxjj]

Originally posted by trojan37
When a person draws a walk, why doesn't that ab count?

Batting average is a measure how well a batter hits the ball, so walks don't count toward that. On-base Percentage measures how well a batter gets on base, so walks count there.

[Texasfootball2]

Originally posted by coxjj
Batting average is a measure how well a batter hits the ball, so walks don't count toward that. On-base Percentage measures how well a batter gets on base, so walks count there.
Very well said in much fewer words, thanks:clap:

[trojan37]

Originally posted by coxjj
Batting average is a measure how well a batter hits the ball, so walks don't count toward that. On-base Percentage measures how well a batter gets on base, so walks count there.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Bull's-eye]

Originally posted by coxjj
Reached on an error, to me, is a different matter. The reasoning is obviously that the batter shouldn't have reached base because the defense messed up, but I would bet that a good hitter would often have more "reaches on an error" because they hit the ball hard, aiding in the error being committed. To me, reaching on an error ought to count in OBP because the team benefitted. Whether the batter was lucky or a hard hitter shouldn't matter. But that's just my opinion.

How about a really fast runner who cause the infielders to hurry their throws, thus resulting in an error?

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Bull's-eye
How about a really fast runner who cause the infielders to hurry their throws, thus resulting in an error? IMO, that's a judgment call by the scorekeeper. Most scorekeepers know their players and know if they think their runner would have beat out the throw regardless of the throwing error.

Does that make sense?

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by pirate4state
IMO, that's a judgment call by the scorekeeper. Most scorekeepers know their players and know if they think their runner would have beat out the throw regardless of the throwing error.

Does that make sense?

That is entirely correct, if the runner appeared to have reached base before the throw, no matter how errant, it should be scored a hit. If the play is bobbled before the throw is made then scorer has to make the judgement as to whether the batter-runner would have reached base safely if fielded clean. This is how stats can be manipulated, based on the scorers perspective and judgement.

[coxjj]

Originally posted by pirate4state
IMO, that's a judgment call by the scorekeeper. Most scorekeepers know their players and know if they think their runner would have beat out the throw regardless of the throwing error.

Does that make sense?

Yes, that's true, and those would then be recorded as hits. But what Bull's-eye is also saying is that there is the fast runner that causes the fielder to hurry their throw that would have still beat the runner had the throw been on target. Clearly a ROE, but wouldn't have happened had it been an average runner.

The fast runner and the hard-hitter get some "reached on errors" that were caused strictly from their talent and, IMO, they should get credit for that.

What may happen is yet another statistic category created similar to OBP that includes ROE ... softball loves their stats!

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by coxjj
Yes, that's true, and those would then be recorded as hits. But what Bull's-eye is also saying is that there is the fast runner that causes the fielder to hurry their throw that would have still beat the runner had the throw been on target. Clearly a ROE, but wouldn't have happened had it been an average runner.

The fast runner and the hard-hitter get some "reached on errors" that were caused strictly from their talent and, IMO, they should get credit for that.

What may happen is yet another statistic category created similar to OBP that includes ROE ... softball loves their stats!

How would anybody be able to know whether a fielder felt rushed or not? You can't assume that just because the runner is fast, that the fielder must have been aware and was hurrying.

[g$$]

Originally posted by NastySlot
while doing on base percentages today.....I can't understand way reaching on a fielders choice or an error doesn't work to the batter runners advantage... why arent' they factors in the formula anyone know? it might be something simple...but i don't see it.

Because you are not rewarded for making an out (FC) or for a defensive error. That would defeat the purpose of OB%.

But let me tell you, lots of people out there esp. in HS figure it wrong & post bogus #s across the board.

[g$$]

Originally posted by NastySlot
sounds good.....but it hurts cause they did reach. and the ab counts against their avg....rules are rules.

Same reason a FC is 0-1 & reaching via error is 0-1 too. You don't get rewarded for that & I agree with it.

[g$$]

Originally posted by trojan37
When a person draws a walk, why doesn't that ab count?

Because when you figure batting avg., you would not want that to be an official AB (which you divide by to figure). You reached via walk not a hit, so why punish the batter? That helps the batter in the long run & improves OB%.

Say batter goes legit 2-4 with a walk...
so
2/4 = .500 batting avg. on night
not 2/5

Yet he reached 3 times legit so that helps OB%

[coxjj]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
How would anybody be able to know whether a fielder felt rushed or not? You can't assume that just because the runner is fast, that the fielder must have been aware and was hurrying.

Which is probably why the calculation is like it is. The difficulty of deciding whether the error was caused moreso by a talented batter/runner as opposed to the defensive player's mistake alone would make it hard to define a standard that could be followed consistently. It would just be nice to be able to measure that intangible that you have in a player that always "makes something happen".

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by g$$
Because you are not rewarded for making an out (FC) or for a defensive error. That would defeat the purpose of OB%.

But let me tell you, lots of people out there esp. in HS figure it wrong & post bogus #s across the board.

I always find it funny when our girls (I keep the scorebook) have their little chants of "so & so got a double/triple and you let her have it" and I'm humming "no, she got a single coupled with an error on the fielder" hee hee

Just b/c she made it safely to 2nd/3rd base doesn't mean she got a double/triple boys & girls. :D

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by coxjj
Which is probably why the calculation is like it is. The difficulty of deciding whether the error was caused moreso by a talented batter/runner as opposed to the defensive player's mistake alone would make it hard to define a standard that could be followed consistently. It would just be nice to be able to measure that intangible that you have in a player that always "makes something happen".

Great discussion, that's why i like turbostats categories of "runs created" and "contact percent" to help evaluate a batters making something happen.

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by pirate4state
I always find it funny when our girls (I keep the scorebook) have their little chants of "so & so got a double/triple and you let her have it" and I'm humming "no, she got a single coupled with an error on the fielder" hee hee

Just b/c she made it safely to 2nd/3rd base doesn't mean she got a double/triple boys & girls. :D

So true:D

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Reds fan
Great discussion, that's why i like turbostats categories of "runs created" and "contact percent" to help evaluate a batters making something happen.

We use digital scout and it took some getting used to because it wasn't the same software from last year and I still don't have everything figured out. :mad:

[g$$]

Originally posted by pirate4state
I always find it funny when our girls (I keep the scorebook) have their little chants of "so & so got a double/triple and you let her have it" and I'm humming "no, she got a single coupled with an error on the fielder" hee hee

Just b/c she made it safely to 2nd/3rd base doesn't mean she got a double/triple boys & girls. :D

True, but what you have to remember is very few people actually know how to keep an accurate book. You have to account for every base & that is why ERA is tedious in breaking down an inning & what happened, how many outs, etc.

As for the player who makes something happen, that is why a quality scorekeeper uses sound judgement before deciding H or E. Would batter have beaten it out? When did error occur, on play or on throw? You can't just assume speed caused it. Is it a routine play for the level of play you are judging? MLB errors are different than a HS error, etc. What is routine to some is not routine to others depending on level of play.

Point is there are rules & then there are judgement calls. That is also why you see bogus #s everywhere!

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by g$$
True, but what you have to remember is very few people actually know how to keep an accurate book. You have to account for every base & that is why ERA is tedious in breaking down an inning & what happened, how many outs, etc.

As for the player who makes something happen, that is why a quality scorekeeper uses sound judgement before deciding H or E. Would batter have beaten it out? When did error occur, on play or on throw? You can't just assume speed caused it. Is it a routine play for the level of play you are judging? MLB errors are different than a HS error, etc. What is routine to some is not routine to others depending on level of play.

Point is there are rules & then there are judgement calls. That is also why you see bogus #s everywhere!
Believe me, I know! I've been keeping book for several years off & on. Sometimes I'll miss a play b/c I'm still thinking about the one that just happened. LOL :doh: And whether or not to award them a hit or charge the defense with an error.

[g$$]

Originally posted by pirate4state
Believe me, I know! I've been keeping book for several years off & on. Sometimes I'll miss a play b/c I'm still thinking about the one that just happened. LOL :doh: And whether or not to give award them a hit or charge the defense with an error.

Not speaking about you, just saying in general. Coaches come to district meetings with crazy #s & you say, what??? No way those #s are right!

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by g$$
Not speaking about you, just saying in general. Coaches come to district meetings with crazy #s & you say, what??? No way those #s are right! Sorry, I was agreeing with you about the bogus #s. I know other people inflate numbers. I need to shut up before I start breaking a rule on this board. :eek: :D

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by pirate4state
We use digital scout and it took some getting used to because it wasn't the same software from last year and I still don't have everything figured out. :mad:

I feel your pain:D

[g$$]

Heck I have probably broken many & didn't even know it.

Good discussion.

[lakers]

My coaches didnt calculate the OB% Batting Avg. etc...
It seemed to be a waste of time. I still couldnt tell you my batting avg. through my varsity career. The only stats I remember is my homerun total because you could count that on one hand.

It seems that sometimes players can get too caught up in their stats.

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by g$$
Not speaking about you, just saying in general. Coaches come to district meetings with crazy #s & you say, what??? No way those #s are right!

That's why I think some of the best coaches out there do not rely on stats that much, instead they know what their players can do based on watching their performances. However, good, credible stats are necessary for those district meetings!

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by lakers
It seems that sometimes players can get too caught up in their stats. :eek: :eek: :eek: Surely you jest!

[Sweetwater Red]

Originally posted by lakers
I still couldnt tell you my batting avg. through my varsity career. The only stats I remember is my homerun total because you could count that on one hand.



As big as you are, I figured you were the 1B/power hitter.:doh:

[pirate4state]

For example, on the current software it is so difficult to edit a reversed decision.

This happened the other night. Our batter hit a slow dribbler down the 3rd baseline, which allowed her to reach safely. Then there was some discussion and the umps ruled that the ball had been hit twice, therefore it was a foul ball :confused:. Okay, fine, but I already had her on base and couldn't figure out how to change it! :mad:

Meanwhile all this other stuff was happening while she was still bat. Passed ball, run scored, runners advanced all while I was stuck on some stupid screen that wouldn't let me put her back at the plate. I just kept pushing buttons until it finally put her back at the plate. I still don't know what I did to make me go back to that screen...just got lucky, I guess! haha

Sorry, just had to rant there about the software.

[g$$]

Originally posted by pirate4state
For example, on the current software it is so difficult to edit a reversed decision.

This happened the other night. Our batter hit a slow dribbler down the 3rd baseline, which allowed her to reach safely. Then there was some discussion and the umps ruled that the ball had been hit twice, therefore it was a foul ball :confused:. Okay, fine, but I already had her on base and couldn't figure out how to change it! :mad:

Meanwhile all this other stuff was happening while she was still bat. Passed ball, run scored, runners advanced all while I was stuck on some stupid screen that wouldn't let me put her back at the plate. I just kept pushing buttons until it finally put her back at the plate. I still don't know what I did to make me go back to that screen...just got lucky, I guess! haha

Sorry, just had to rant there about the software.

Keep a written/old school book & then input data later. Might help with these situations.

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Reds fan
That's why I think some of the best coaches out there do not rely on stats that much, instead they know what their players can do based on watching their performances. However, good, credible stats are necessary for those district meetings!

What? You mean to tell me that credible stats should be used to determine all distirct teams? Here I thought it was a popularity contest. ;) I mean what else could it be when we totally dominate our district yet players from teams with 1 or 2 wins make the team over our players. :thinking: :thinking: :rolleyes:

Okay, now I'll really shut up! :cool:

[lakers]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
As big as you are, I figured you were the 1B/power hitter.:doh:

You got it...I batted 4 hole...

But I wish I knew my stats. It would be neat to compare them...

But you could also count my strike outs on one hand

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by g$$
Keep a written/old school book & then input data later. Might help with these situations.

You are right about that, nothing replaces the old fashioned paper scorebooks!!!

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by g$$
Keep a written/old school book & then input data later. Might help with these situations. Believe it or not, I did that for awhile. :nerd: I'm very picky though and once I ran out of sheets (I used Glovers) I just said "screw it" and used the palm exclusively. May have to go back to that once the playoffs start.

Which reminds me, I better order some sheets! :D

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by pirate4state
What? You mean to tell me that credible stats should be used to determine all distirct teams? Here I thought it was a popularity contest. ;) I mean what else could it be when we totally dominate our district yet players from teams with 1 or 2 wins make the team over our players. :thinking: :thinking: :rolleyes:

Okay, now I'll really shut up! :cool:

I said necessary, not that they would overcome the politics!:(

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Reds fan
I said necessary, not that they would overcome the politics!:( Uh oh...you said the "P" word. ;)

Later guys. I should have left the office 15 mintues ago. :D

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by pirate4state
Believe it or not, I did that for awhile. :nerd: I'm very picky though and once I ran out of sheets (I used Glovers) I just said "screw it" and used the palm exclusively. May have to go back to that once the playoffs start.

Which reminds me, I better order some sheets! :D

Doesn't your scout program allow you to print out your own blank scoresheets?

[Reds fan]

Originally posted by pirate4state
Uh oh...you said the "P" word. ;)

Later guys. I should have left the office 15 mintues ago. :D

My bad:( Have a safe drive home.

[Necks_Fan]

Originally posted by Texasfootball2
rapped *wrapped* Lol.;) :D

[NastySlot]

thanks for the replies and we will be having our all-district meeting next week...so i was collecting stats for that.....we don't keep up with it during the season or send them to the paper......I really appreciate all the input.

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Reds fan
Doesn't your scout program allow you to print out your own blank scoresheets? I have no idea. It might. The palm pilot belongs to the coach/school, but I'll check it out.