Can California just fall off already??? [Archive]

big daddy russ

01-05-2008, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by carter08
Second:

They aren't teaching kids to be gay trannys.

it says they won't teach anything that discriminates against them.

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has signed into law two bills requiring all public school instruction and activities to positively portray transsexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality to children as young as kindergarten. He has also signed bills undermining marriage and infringing upon the moral conscience of business owners, churches, and nonprofit organizations.

Actually, it says that they will portray them in a positive light, which is in direct contradiction with the beliefs of every major religion on the planet. I have gay friends and I accept that I can't change their choice of lifestyle, but I'll be damned if I let anyone contradict the way I raise my kids.

I could care less if it's politically correct. If they don't want to allow prayer in school because it infringes upon the beliefs of others, then why push kids to accept this as an acceptable lifestyle?

Even though I have strong convictions, I'm a pretty open-minded guy and have no problem discussing issues with others as long as it's kept civil. (If it can't stay civil, though, my friends know where I stand and I'll just let sleeping dogs lie.) One of my gay friends tried to convince me once that it's "just a natural human urge within some of us" and that "he couldn't help the way he feels." The most rediculous argument I've ever heard for homosexuality. Almost as rediculous as the same friend telling me, "You can't legislate morality."

1.) It's "only natural" for rapists, murderers, and molesters to do what they do. You don't see anyone condoning those acts. Yet.

"But Russ, those acts hurt others. Homosexuality is consensual."

Maybe, but they're still "natural" feelings, right?

OK, maybe that argument doesn't work for you. Let's dial it down a notch, then. What about bestiality? That doesn't hurt anyone. Except maybe a chihuahua. Is that wrong? After all, it's "only a natural human urge within some of us."

2.) If we're not legislating morality, then what are we legislating? And don't most morals come from organized religion?

BobcatBenny

01-05-2008, 04:32 PM

Big Daddy Russ is right.

STANG RED

01-05-2008, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by BobcatBenny
Big Daddy Russ is right.

Yes sir! He hit the nail right on the head!

Great post Russ!

Stownhorse

01-05-2008, 05:14 PM

Its California....is that surprising?

BobcatBenny

01-05-2008, 06:28 PM

I had a great idea before the Iraqi war that would have solved the problem with Sadam Hussien and avoided a conflict all together.

California was the answer.

We should have just traded Sadam California for Iraq.

It was a win, win, win. We get rid of California. Californians get what they wanted, no war. And the rest of us would have low fuel prices.

Plus we get the added benefit of helping the Hollywood types keep their word if George W. Bush were elected. We would have helped them leave the country. Come to think of it, probably would have solved California's illegal immigrant problems too.

We really lack creativity in our leadership. :D

IHStangFan

01-05-2008, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Actually, it says that they will portray them in a positive light, which is in direct contradiction with the beliefs of every major religion on the planet. I have gay friends and I accept that I can't change their choice of lifestyle, but I'll be damned if I let anyone contradict the way I raise my kids.

I could care less if it's politically correct. If they don't want to allow prayer in school because it infringes upon the beliefs of others, then why push kids to accept this as an acceptable lifestyle?

Even though I have strong convictions, I'm a pretty open-minded guy and have no problem discussing issues with others as long as it's kept civil. (If it can't stay civil, though, my friends know where I stand and I'll just let sleeping dogs lie.) One of my gay friends tried to convince me once that it's "just a natural human urge within some of us" and that "he couldn't help the way he feels." The most rediculous argument I've ever heard for homosexuality. Almost as rediculous as the same friend telling me, "You can't legislate morality."

1.) It's "only natural" for rapists, murderers, and molesters to do what they do. You don't see anyone condoning those acts. Yet.

"But Russ, those acts hurt others. Homosexuality is consensual."

Maybe, but they're still "natural" feelings, right?

OK, maybe that argument doesn't work for you. Let's dial it down a notch, then. What about bestiality? That doesn't hurt anyone. Except maybe a chihuahua. Is that wrong? After all, it's "only a natural human urge within some of us."

2.) If we're not legislating morality, then what are we legislating? And don't most morals come from organized religion? :clap: best post I've read in a long time....from any of you. :clap:

alaskacat

01-05-2008, 06:45 PM

Actually there is a better way to cure lots of problems.

We don't need a fence at the border we need a 10 feet deep mote. Along the border. Then you take all the problem alligators from Florida and put them there. Don't feed the.

This is turn would solve the illegal immigrant problem. Gas prices would go down because the illegals wouldn't be using it. Hospitals could forgo closing because of the illegals, and mainly I wont have to pay for anything they do...unlike it is now.

Gobbla2001

01-05-2008, 07:36 PM

Gays shouldn't be discriminated against.... and their choice shouldn't be promoted... cuz I said so... just my feelings...

I watched a documentary the other night on a town in Oregon that was going through change in the school administration... an administration came in that allowed their teachers to give opinions on how bad logging is to the environment etc... (in a logging community) and that was just the start of it... so you can see that this was a more liberal staff in a conservative community and it wasn't going to go well... was an interesting documentary that I feel covered both sides of the arguement very well (which is what a documentary should be)...

but what really got me is what happened with an organization at the school for gay students (by students, nothing wrong with that, that's their deal and they should have each other's backs)... one day the gay students participated in an awareness deal where they wore buttons and vowed not to speak that day... teachers were encouraged by the principal of the school not to call on those students to answer questions in class etc... so they would not break their vows of silence for that day etc... in my opinion that's wrong... I wonder how well an "I'm straight, I'm not picking up a pencil all day, including when I should be doing my homework tonight!" button would have worked out for that principal?

teach from the book from bell ringing to bell ringing... abc's... prime numbers, George Washington to George W. Bush and am-are-is-was-were-be-being-been... everything else is for the lunch room...

Adidas410s

01-05-2008, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by alaskacat
Actually there is a better way to cure lots of problems.

We don't need a fence at the border we need a 10 feet deep mote. Along the border. Then you take all the problem alligators from Florida and put them there. Don't feed the.

This is turn would solve the illegal immigrant problem. Gas prices would go down because the illegals wouldn't be using it. Hospitals could forgo closing because of the illegals, and mainly I wont have to pay for anything they do...unlike it is now.
That solves nothing...thanks for the insight...

King_LeYoeNidas

01-05-2008, 11:51 PM

FutureAD

01-06-2008, 01:46 AM

but like george lopez says do this and then they will be selling you alligator boots and belts in ten minutes...lol :D

FutureAD

01-06-2008, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by FutureAD
but like george lopez says do this and then they will be selling you alligator boots and belts in ten minutes...lol :D

Aesculus gilmus

01-06-2008, 07:24 AM

All of you people need to stop having sex--period.

I don't care if it is a natural human urge.

There needs to be a "time out" declared until we can get this overpopulation problem under control.

Look at the prices of fuel and food. They are spiraling upward because of this problem.

Ranger Mom

01-06-2008, 09:44 AM

I received this email, and while I am not 100% sure where I stand on the immigration mess, I thought the military statement showed some merit.

Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use.....

The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants!

That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.....

Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the Border....

When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq...

Tell him if he wants to come to America then he must serve tour in the military....

Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it.....

After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country....

He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot..... .

This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves.. ....

If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the
canteen, rifle or ammo.....

King_LeYoeNidas

01-06-2008, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I received this email, and while I am not 100% sure where I stand on the immigration mess, I thought the military statement showed some merit.

Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use.....

The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants!

That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.....

Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the Border....

When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq...

Tell him if he wants to come to America then he must serve tour in the military....

Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it.....

After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country....

He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot..... .

This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves.. ....

If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the
canteen, rifle or ammo.....

agreed....any and all Anglos need to go back to Europe.

Gobbla2001

01-06-2008, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by King_LeYoeNidas
agreed....any and all Anglos need to go back to Europe.

the great majority of us have never been there :confused:

Blastoderm55

01-06-2008, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I received this email, and while I am not 100% sure where I stand on the immigration mess, I thought the military statement showed some merit.

Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use.....

The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants!

That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.....

Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the Border....

When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq...

Tell him if he wants to come to America then he must serve tour in the military....

Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it.....

After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country....

He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot..... .

This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves.. ....

If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the
canteen, rifle or ammo.....

I've got a similar view, but we should be using the prison population to fight our wars instead of sending our bright, promising young men and women to die. Plus it'd be way cheaper than the death penalty. And if those prisoners, now soldiers, survive their tour, they can lay claim to an acre of sand in Iraq and just stay put. :D

And do any of you really think BIG BUSINESS wants to lose 11 million cash-paying consumers? Puh-lease! :doh:

Ranger Mom

01-06-2008, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
I've got a similar view, but we should be using the prison population to fight our wars instead of sending our bright, promising young men and women to die. Plus it'd be way cheaper than the death penalty. And if those prisoners, now soldiers, survive their tour, they can lay claim to an acre of sand in Iraq and just stay put. :D

And do any of you really think BIG BUSINESS wants to lose 11 million cash-paying consumers? Puh-lease! :doh:

Just to clarify, I had my disclaimer before I posted the email!!

I DO think sending the ones who are trying to get here now to fight for this country they want to be a part of has merit though... so does the prison population idea!!

sinton66

01-06-2008, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Just to clarify, I had my disclaimer before I posted the email!!

I DO think sending the ones who are trying to get here now to fight for this country they want to be a part of has merit though... so does the prison population idea!!

The prison population is where they are because they can't conform to society's wishes. What makes you think they would respond favorably to society's demands?

FutureAD

01-06-2008, 01:18 PM

i think if you send prisoners over there they wont care where they are they will just take their guns and use them to get what they want in Iraq it wont be towards the war effort just for themselves...lol but on the plus side hopefully they will just stay there:clap:

big daddy russ

01-06-2008, 03:26 PM

I did a report on illegal immigrants' effects on the government and society, and the US actually makes tens of millions of dollars off illegals. They hardly tax our government, there's little to no effect on real wages, most have social security and taxes taken out of their pay (as I said, most, but not all) and receive close to zero government benefits, they pay the same 8.25% local tax (or whatever it is) on all purchases, and they're not eligible for any government assistance programs. So they pay us, but get zero government benefits until they have a kid who is born in the United States. Then they're no longer illegal, which is a different boat altogether.

Where they "hurt" us the most are in health care and education, but I don't mind spending a few extra bucks on education for any kid, especially when his/her parents are putting so much back into the economy and the government. I never figured it all out completely, but as far as I know, they're drained enough to more than provide for their kids' schooling. The biggest problem they pose is to health care providers. If they need a doctor, they'll see a doctor. But they can't always pay for that doctor, so the citizens that own these health care places are forced to share the brunt of the burden.

Crime within the population of illegal families (i.e. the mom, dad, and children all live over here) is significantly less than citizens of similar income. So illegal families living in poverty tend to have kids less-involved in crime than citizens who live in poverty.

IMHO, illegal immigration has recently become an unfounded witch hunt. Until somebody can give me a good reason for it THAT MAKES SENSE, I could care less. I worked with some illegals back in HS when I worked on the ranch and they were all good guys. All of us were paid straight cash ($75 a day, sunup to sundown) because the rancher couldn't afford anything else. He was already taxed so hard on the land and the product, he had nowhere else to turn.

I don't mind spending some money on it, but come on, a freaking wall between here and Mexico? Does anyone actually think it'll work? California's had one for a while. It hasn't curbed the influx over there. We commissioned that thing to be completed, from Arizona to Brownsville, by May of this year. We have roughly five miles of wall built as of this minute.

It seems like one dumb idea follows the next in Washington. If you can rally up a witch hunt, it inspires the idiot within us all. It happened with me. I know I actually liked some of Buchanan's ideas back in the day, and this was one of them. But after actually sitting down, looking at the facts, and realizing how crazy it really is, I've changed my tune.

sinton66

01-06-2008, 04:19 PM

Super-fund is the answer. With it, we charter busses. Greet them on the way over and say "welcome to America, now get your arse on the bus". Then you tell the driver not to let anybody off until they reach Washington, D.C. If the feds won't do what's necessary to stop it, let THEM deal with it.;)

rockdale80

01-06-2008, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by sinton66
Super-fund is the answer. With it, we charter busses. Greet them on the way over and say "welcome to America, now get your arse on the bus". Then you tell the driver not to let anybody off until they reach Washington, D.C. If the feds won't do what's necessary to stop it, let THEM deal with it.;)

Deal with what? Coming here to chase a dream? To provide a better future for their families? Most of them come over to feed their families. Read BDR's post above. Pretty in tune with what is going on. Granted, I think there is a right and a wrong way to do things, and they should do it the legal way, but I think this is a deceptive argument that we have been having lately in politics to deter the our focus from other real issues. America has been a boiling pot since its inception....in fact I would bet that many of the people on this board are descendants of illegal immigrants. It is aggrevating to hear people talk about illegal immigrants like they are the plague, when they are doing the same thing our ancestors did when our families were brough over.....which is to try to make a better future for their families. Anyone ever thought about why nothing has been done? Because it does not have the economic drain that you hear about on FOX, CNN, or any other news outlet. If the US was really losing money on this deal it would have stopped a very long time ago. I think when things go wrong in America we look for a scapegoat. Lucky for the illegal immigrants we blame many of our problems on them, and now it is a huge issue. Of course this is only my opinion. ;)

eagles_victory

01-06-2008, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Aesculus gilmus
All of you people need to stop having sex--period.

Thats one thing that i can almost guarantee wont happen

sinton66

01-06-2008, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Deal with what? Coming here to chase a dream? To provide a better future for their families? Most of them come over to feed their families. Read BDR's post above. Pretty in tune with what is going on. Granted, I think there is a right and a wrong way to do things, and they should do it the legal way, but I think this is a deceptive argument that we have been having lately in politics to deter the our focus from other real issues. America has been a boiling pot since its inception....in fact I would bet that many of the people on this board are descendants of illegal immigrants. It is aggrevating to hear people talk about illegal immigrants like they are the plague, when they are doing the same thing our ancestors did when our families were brough over.....which is to try to make a better future for their families. Anyone ever thought about why nothing has been done? Because it does not have the economic drain that you hear about on FOX, CNN, or any other news outlet. If the US was really losing money on this deal it would have stopped a very long time ago. I think when things go wrong in America we look for a scapegoat. Lucky for the illegal immigrants we blame many of our problems on them, and now it is a huge issue. Of course this is only my opinion. ;)

You obviously have never lived close to the southern border. You've never had to deal with trails of trash left across your land from the herds coming across. You've never had to deal with the illegal drugs that come across with them. And them paying taxes is a joke. 90% of what they can earn here is sent back across the border. The people who employ them on this side provide for most of their needs. They buy VERY little of anything on this side. The reason the government hasn't seen that "drain" is because they aren't the ones PAYING for it.

While I agree that most citizens in this country are descendants of immigrants, I strongly disagree that they were illegal.

Gobbla2001

01-06-2008, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by big daddy russ

IMHO, illegal immigration has recently become an unfounded witch hunt. Until somebody can give me a good reason for it THAT MAKES SENSE, I could care less. I worked with some illegals back in HS when I worked on the ranch and they were all good guys. All of us were paid straight cash ($75 a day, sunup to sundown) because the rancher couldn't afford anything else. He was already taxed so hard on the land and the product, he had nowhere else to turn.

#1 social security card fraud... if a born and raised American citizen uses someone else's social security card # to gain an advantage over another American are you for that? It sure as hell isn't right for an illegal immigrant to do it...

#2 it's just not our job to let 'em come over here unaccounted for and get jobs...

#3 it's another example of Americans just taking it on the chin and saying "the problem is too big to fix, let's just say "it's okay now" so there will no longer be a problem."

I say we find a logical way to let the ones already here stay, but we must do something to atleast slow it down in the future...

I've worked with illegal aliens as well, a ton of 'em work at the plant I work at... They come in from Mexico and South America and go straight to the plant's outside contractor service and get jobs... that service (H.P. Services) helps them with getting social security cards (someone else's in most cases) and sends them out to the plant at a starting wage of $8.50 (I started through the same compant 4 years ago at $7.00).. When it is found out that they are not the name on that card, they are fired, get another one and are back out within a week...

most are very hard workers and nice people, so it's not like I hate 'em but you can see where it's a pretty messed up deal...

Like I said, get the ones that are here legal maybe, but we can't continue to leave this dam unplugged, we're running out of room over here as it is...

Gobbla2001

01-06-2008, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Most of them come over to feed their families.

from the ones I see, which is maybe 100 new ones a year out at our plant, they weren't having a problem getting fed where they came from...

as for the dream, yes, I understand...

I also do not believe people understand just how much money does go back to Mexico... most of these people live together... you're talked 6 people in a small home that doesn't cost much to begin with... with these 6 people making decent money, a lot of that money goes right back to their families in Mexico...

have a few out there that I talk to a lot and am semi close to... two of them (a father and daughter) are sending the majority of their checks back to Mexico to help their daughter/sister out with doctor bills ( some form of cancer)... the girl was fired last week for the third time, her dad has been let go twice, but I'm sure I'll see her back out at the same position this week with a new SSC#...

I know of one who was fired a year ago (I haven't seen him back, probably the hardest worker they've ever sent over here)... the guy was a tad over 30 I believe... he was working almost every day so that he could send most of his money back to Mexico because he had 9 children there... can you blame him for doing that? Absolutely not, but it's not MY America's problem he has 9 kids in another country and it's hard for him to give 'em nice things over there...

I just think this country has lost its sense of pride... we have problems, we feel compassionate for those who may be causing the problems so we try and say "it's not a problem" so that we feel we no longer have the problem...

rockdale80

01-06-2008, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by sinton66
You obviously have never lived close to the southern border. You've never had to deal with trails of trash left across your land from the herds coming across. You've never had to deal with the illegal drugs that come across with them. And them paying taxes is a joke. 90% of what they can earn here is sent back across the border. The people who employ them on this side provide for most of their needs. They buy VERY little of anything on this side. The reason the government hasn't seen that "drain" is because they aren't the ones PAYING for it.

While I agree that most citizens in this country are descendants of immigrants, I strongly disagree that they were illegal.

And you are entitled to your opinion. Just because they send their money back, doesnt mean it is not taxed. Your income tax is removed from every single check whether you like it or not. (Not all, but most jobs) So in essence they do pay taxes. When they buy gas, groceries, and other items essential to live they are taxed. Sure they may not live the lifestyle most americans do because they are sending it back, but that doesnt mean they are not paying taxes. When you talk about drugs you are talking about a seperate issue. I am talking about the ones coming over here to make a better life for their families. Sure there are bad apples in every bunch, but I dont think closing the borders is the answer. And I guarantee that if the economic drain was what some people say it is, it would have ended a very long time ago. There is a reason nothing is being done. I dont want to go too much more into it, because if I did it would become political and there are motivations on both sides to do nothing. I assure you of that.

Gobbla2001

01-06-2008, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Sure they may not live the lifestyle most americans do because they are sending it back, but that doesnt mean they are not paying taxes.

yah, that's one thing most people don't understand, they're paying taxes...

rockdale80

01-06-2008, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
from the ones I see, which is maybe 100 new ones a year out at our plant, they weren't having a problem getting fed where they came from...

as for the dream, yes, I understand...

I also do not believe people understand just how much money does go back to Mexico... most of these people live together... you're talked 6 people in a small home that doesn't cost much to begin with... with these 6 people making decent money, a lot of that money goes right back to their families in Mexico...

have a few out there that I talk to a lot and am semi close to... two of them (a father and daughter) are sending the majority of their checks back to Mexico to help their daughter/sister out with doctor bills ( some form of cancer)... the girl was fired last week for the third time, her dad has been let go twice, but I'm sure I'll see her back out at the same position this week with a new SSC#...

I know of one who was fired a year ago (I haven't seen him back, probably the hardest worker they've ever sent over here)... the guy was a tad over 30 I believe... he was working almost every day so that he could send most of his money back to Mexico because he had 9 children there... can you blame him for doing that? Absolutely not, but it's not MY America's problem he has 9 kids in another country and it's hard for him to give 'em nice things over there...

I just think this country has lost its sense of pride... we have problems, we feel compassionate for those who may be causing the problems so we try and say "it's not a problem" so that we feel we no longer have the problem...

Does it matter where they spend their money? If they work hard, and cut living costs, then what business is it of mine? I know plenty of people that could learn a thing or too about overextending themselves and buying things they dont need and cant afford. And sure it is not YOUR America's problem that he has 9 kids. But it sounds like he is doing the best he can to support them. I would be willing to be it isnt easy to be away from your family for extended periods of time in order to feed them. I am assuming that social security, medicare, and income taxes are taken out of his paycheck and he will never see the benefit of any of those things.

Gobbla2001

01-06-2008, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Does it matter where they spend their money? If they work hard, and cut living costs, then what business is it of mine? I know plenty of people that could learn a thing or too about overextending themselves and buying things they dont need and cant afford.

Does it matter where they send their money? Sure it does... the illegal immigrants that work where I work probably bring home 150k a week total after taxes etc... I'm pretty sure 75k of that is going back to Mexico... That's almost 4 million a year going back to Mexico from where I work alone and less than 4 million spent here depending on how much they save... I agree, it's their money, they work hard, they earn it and they SHOULD be able to send it to Mexico or wherever, but it does not help our economy out at all and would help a little if most of what they send there was spent here...

And sure it is not YOUR America's problem that he has 9 kids. But it sounds like he is doing the best he can to support them. I would be willing to be it isnt easy to be away from your family for extended periods of time in order to feed them. I am assuming that social security, medicare, and income taxes are taken out of his paycheck and he will never see the benefit of any of those things.

As for him having 9 kids he has to support and for it not being easy being away from your family that's their choice... it's their actions and it is not mine or your america's responsibility to take them in so they can fix their country's problems...

I'd probably do the same thing to be honest with you, that's why I can't be mad at any illegal immigrant that goes to work and supports their families... I'm a pretty compassionate person but their problem is not my problem... 95% of the ones I see have had way too much food in their lives to begin with so I don't think they 'need' it that bad... it's not like there are mass graves over there and they need our help... they're fine the way they've been forever, they have homeless people just like we do... they just want what we've got... they've heard about it, they've seen it and though I can't blame 'em doesn't mean it's right...

sinton66

01-06-2008, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
And you are entitled to your opinion. Just because they send their money back, doesnt mean it is not taxed. Your income tax is removed from every single check whether you like it or not. (Not all, but most jobs) So in essence they do pay taxes. When they buy gas, groceries, and other items essential to live they are taxed. Sure they may not live the lifestyle most americans do because they are sending it back, but that doesnt mean they are not paying taxes. When you talk about drugs you are talking about a seperate issue. I am talking about the ones coming over here to make a better life for their families. Sure there are bad apples in every bunch, but I dont think closing the borders is the answer. And I guarantee that if the economic drain was what some people say it is, it would have ended a very long time ago. There is a reason nothing is being done. I dont want to go too much more into it, because if I did it would become political and there are motivations on both sides to do nothing. I assure you of that.

Shows what you know. Since they are illegals, it is illegal to hire them. Those that work for farms and ranches (which are by far the majority) are paid in cash with no taxes taken out. They don't buy groceries. The farmers and ranchers get it for them. The illegals rarely venture into town for fear of capture and deportation. The drugs come with them because the ones that can't PAY a coyote to bring them are forced to carry the drugs for them. Passage is paid for one way or another. No one gets something for nothing. Pretending it doesn't happen won't make it stop.

Again, the economics don't bother the government because they aren't paying for it. The real taxpayers of the border states are through their property and other taxes. You may think differently if you ever buy a house or property and have to pay taxes on it. We pay very high taxes on our property and income to support the educational system, law enforcement, hospital districts, water districts, government service, military, etc., etc., etc.

The schools aren't even allowed to ASK about citizenship. Even if they SUSPECT illegal alien parents, they are prevented by law from contacting the authorities. If those children can't pay for their breakfast/lunches, they get them "free". Who do you suppose pays for that? We can't even guarantee our OWN children a quality education anymore, let alone the children of the rest of the world.

You're only fooling yourself if you think the problems aren't real. It will only get worse. It's YOUR children who will suffer the most because they will eventually get saddled with all of it.

rockdale80

01-06-2008, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by sinton66
Shows what you know. Since they are illegals, it is illegal to hire them. Those that work for farms and ranches (which are by far the majority) are paid in cash with no taxes taken out. They don't buy groceries. The farmers and ranchers get it for them. The illegals rarely venture into town for fear of capture and deportation. The drugs come with them because the ones that can't PAY a coyote to bring them are forced to carry the drugs for them. Passage is paid for one way or another. No one gets something for nothing. Pretending it doesn't happen won't make it stop.

Again, the economics don't bother the government because they aren't paying for it. The real taxpayers of the border states are through their property and other taxes. You may think differently if you ever buy a house or property and have to pay taxes on it. We pay very high taxes on our property and income to support the educational system, law enforcement, hospital districts, water districts, government service, military, etc., etc., etc.

The schools aren't even allowed to ASK about citizenship. Even if they SUSPECT illegal alien parents, they are prevented by law from contacting the authorities. If those children can't pay for their breakfast/lunches, they get them "free". Who do you suppose pays for that? We can't even guarantee our OWN children a quality education anymore, let alone the children of the rest of the world.

You're only fooling yourself if you think the problems aren't real. It will only get worse. It's YOUR children who will suffer the most because they will eventually get saddled with all of it.

Ok. :rolleyes:

Sorry for my foolish, untrue calculations of things. Maybe one day I will wake up as wise and omnisicient as you. :rolleyes:

Do the math on 10 million illegal workers in America and the benefit they have on income tax, sales tax, medicare, and social security. You say they dont buy items necessary to live on, but do farmers and ranchers not pay taxes on the things THEY BUY for the immigrants? Do those same farmers and ranchers not pay property taxes just like you? Since when did all illegals live right near the border? They are everywhere...especially in Texas. Your point is moot and full of holes. You have taken a few instances and turned it into a big stereotype. I never said that there isnt a right and wrong way to go about becoming a citizen. I think they should go through the right means to attain citizenship. Think about the fact that they will then receive the same benefits you and I have. That is 10 million people receiving the benefits every other citizen is receiving. Think about that impact. Because now they are paying with little in return... Then employers that do pay cash would have to become more legal. Prices of some of the essential items we have would increase. You are only thinking about a few of the details of this debate and not focusing on the big picture.

Just think about it.

JasperDog94

01-07-2008, 01:16 AM

Anyone that says that there's not a significant drain on the economy has obviously never been in an inner city school. Or in an emergency room lately. UTMB Galveston recently stopped delivering babies because they couldn't afford to keep delivering to people that couldn't pay. Don't forget that it costs more to educate spanish speaking people due to the extra bilingual education programs in almost every school.

IHStangFan

01-07-2008, 01:45 AM

the key word is "illegal". They are breaking our laws by jumping the border and not coming in using the proper channels. (meanwhile if I, a hard working American born citizen were to break the law, I pay the consequences.) They do that, I have no problem w/ them being here. Sneaking across the border undocumented is illegal...PERIOD. Rule 1 should be...."you want to be a citizen of this country, then start by obeying the laws....we all have to..so get in line, fill out the proper paperwork, become a productive, law-abiding member of this society. Welcome to America go forth and succeed" Other than that...secure the borders. I'm wondering how many of you people have been to any other countries. There are not many that take these issues as lightly as we do and have no qualms about a closed border. We have become too PC for our own good and it will be our downfall...write it down.

That's just my $.02

King_LeYoeNidas

01-07-2008, 08:31 AM

all the money that "SHOULD" be spent here in the US? Please. Give us official facts and figures over how much is being spent here and how much they are supposedly sending home to Mexico. On the same token, why don't you take a look at all the kids from the US (and there are alot of them) who are going TO MEXICO for their little weekend getaways and spending millions of US dollars each year THERE to get laid and boozed up or worse.

Aesculus gilmus

01-07-2008, 09:28 AM

The powers that be want this to be a single economic and (eventually) political entity.

The leaders of both parties were behind it, going back at least 20 years. Only Perot even warned of the consequences of it.

It is now OVER. America is no more. The North American Union has not been officially unveiled yet, but there is no way to reverse the NAFTA-ization process. Argue amongst yourselves about the issue, but it has already GONE DOWN, so to speak.

big daddy russ

01-07-2008, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Anyone that says that there's not a significant drain on the economy has obviously never been in an inner city school. Or in an emergency room lately. UTMB Galveston recently stopped delivering babies because they couldn't afford to keep delivering to people that couldn't pay. Don't forget that it costs more to educate spanish speaking people due to the extra bilingual education programs in almost every school.
I've spent considerable time in inner-city schools. Was a volunteer at one for two and a half years. My fiance's also a bilingual teacher. I know a thing or two about the subject from all sides. While I completely agree with you about the health care issue, there is ZERO drain on the education system. As I said earlier, they put more money in our system than they take out. Sure, they give her a $4k stipend to teach "bilingual" education, but their definition of "bilingual" is to teach them exclusively in English. They're supposed to be completely immersed in English by fifth grade.

I'd like to see a true bilingual program, and one that's open to all kids, not just Spanish-speaking ones. The system in which she teaches is junk.

Originally posted by IHStangFan
the key word is "illegal". They are breaking our laws by jumping the border and not coming in using the proper channels. (meanwhile if I, a hard working American born citizen were to break the law, I pay the consequences.) They do that, I have no problem w/ them being here. Sneaking across the border undocumented is illegal...PERIOD. Rule 1 should be...."you want to be a citizen of this country, then start by obeying the laws....we all have to..so get in line, fill out the proper paperwork, become a productive, law-abiding member of this society. Welcome to America go forth and succeed" Other than that...secure the borders. I'm wondering how many of you people have been to any other countries. There are not many that take these issues as lightly as we do and have no qualms about a closed border. We have become too PC for our own good and it will be our downfall...write it down.

That's just my $.02
Now this is a good argument. It's against the law, but why is it illegal? I want to know why, and I want concrete answers, not just "because it's illegal." While that's a good enough reason not to do it, why is it that way? Drinking underage is illegal, but it happens all the time. However, it's usually poorly justified (unless with parents) so I'm still against it.

And I know what you mean when you say many countries are tighter on their borders than we are, but saying the majority is overstepping it a little. South Korea still has a tight lockdown on North Korea, and they're still skeptical about letting Japanese in their borders even after all these years. Same goes for Israel, with possibly the most heavily-guarded borders of any nation in the world. But Japan, Canada, Syria, Costa Rica, Mexico, etc, etc, etc, keep their borders relatively unchecked (granted, Japan's an island.)

Originally posted by Aesculus gilmus
The powers that be want this to be a single economic and (eventually) political entity.

The leaders of both parties were behind it, going back at least 20 years. Only Perot even warned of the consequences of it.

It is now OVER. America is no more. The North American Union has not been officially unveiled yet, but there is no way to reverse the NAFTA-ization process. Argue amongst yourselves about the issue, but it has already GONE DOWN, so to speak.
Gilmus, you hit the nail on the head on the NAFTA issue. Delegates from several Central American countries along with Colombia have actually been throwing out the idea of CAFTA, and it's gaining steam right now. Globalization is real, and because we make more money than just about any other country in the world per capita (with the obvious exception of countries like Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, the Vatican, etc.), our real wages will continue to decline as the trade corridors open up. Michigan's already feeling it in a big way. They've been hit harder than anyone, and that's why you're hearing radio and TV ads trying to persuade businesses to move to Michigan in Houston and Corpus.

JasperDog94

01-07-2008, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by big daddy russ
They're supposed to be completely immersed in English by fifth grade. You've obviously never seen a kid that comes from a "bilingual" program from Aldine ISD or Houston ISD. 90 % of them can't speak a lick of English. My wife sees it all the time. One districts idea of "bilingual" is different from anothers. It creates a huge drain on education because of the extra teachers that must be hired in many school districts. Again, every school district is different, but I've seen first hand the amount of extra personnel that are hired because of this problem.

JasperDog94

01-07-2008, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by big daddy russ
It's against the law, but why is it illegal? I want to know why, and I want concrete answers, not just "because it's illegal." While that's a good enough reason not to do it, why is it that way? Drinking underage is illegal, but it happens all the time. However, it's usually poorly justified (unless with parents) so I'm still against it. Come on Russ. You're smarter than this. Every country has laws dictating who can and can't enter the country. Every one. The last thing the US (or any other country for that matter) needs is a bunch of "unknowns" entering the country. Do it legally. Does the legal process need work? Absolutely. I'm all for streamlining the process, but until then the process must be utilized.

slpybear the bullfan

01-07-2008, 06:27 PM

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Actually, it says that they will portray them in a positive light, which is in direct contradiction with the beliefs of every major religion on the planet. I have gay friends and I accept that I can't change their choice of lifestyle, but I'll be damned if I let anyone contradict the way I raise my kids.

I could care less if it's politically correct. If they don't want to allow prayer in school because it infringes upon the beliefs of others, then why push kids to accept this as an acceptable lifestyle?

Even though I have strong convictions, I'm a pretty open-minded guy and have no problem discussing issues with others as long as it's kept civil. (If it can't stay civil, though, my friends know where I stand and I'll just let sleeping dogs lie.) One of my gay friends tried to convince me once that it's "just a natural human urge within some of us" and that "he couldn't help the way he feels." The most rediculous argument I've ever heard for homosexuality. Almost as rediculous as the same friend telling me, "You can't legislate morality."

1.) It's "only natural" for rapists, murderers, and molesters to do what they do. You don't see anyone condoning those acts. Yet.

"But Russ, those acts hurt others. Homosexuality is consensual."

Maybe, but they're still "natural" feelings, right?

OK, maybe that argument doesn't work for you. Let's dial it down a notch, then. What about bestiality? That doesn't hurt anyone. Except maybe a chihuahua. Is that wrong? After all, it's "only a natural human urge within some of us."

2.) If we're not legislating morality, then what are we legislating? And don't most morals come from organized religion?

SWMustang

01-07-2008, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Just to clarify, I had my disclaimer before I posted the email!!

I DO think sending the ones who are trying to get here now to fight for this country they want to be a part of has merit though...

We would have a second rate military if we counted on conscripts to do the fighting - granted the barracks would be nicely tiled and the landscaping would be breathtaking...

Buccaneer

01-07-2008, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by King_LeYoeNidas
all the money that "SHOULD" be spent here in the US? Please. Give us official facts and figures over how much is being spent here and how much they are supposedly sending home to Mexico. On the same token, why don't you take a look at all the kids from the US (and there are alot of them) who are going TO MEXICO for their little weekend getaways and spending millions of US dollars each year THERE to get laid and boozed up or worse.

The amount of money wired to Mexico since 2006:$21,854,904,997

http://www.immigrationcounters.com/

SWMustang

01-07-2008, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Deal with what? Coming here to chase a dream? To provide a better future for their families? Most of them come over to feed their families.

They do hurt US citizens in the contracting business (as well as others) by underbidding dramatically. Also the burgeoning population has moved into areas that were not historically hispanic. The hold over population has trouble finding employment in typical first jobs due to not speaking spanish. These are just a couple of things I've noticed in Houston with the exploding population.

sinfan75

01-07-2008, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
from the ones I see, which is maybe 100 new ones a year out at our plant, they weren't having a problem getting fed where they came from...

as for the dream, yes, I understand...

I also do not believe people understand just how much money does go back to Mexico... most of these people live together... you're talked 6 people in a small home that doesn't cost much to begin with... with these 6 people making decent money, a lot of that money goes right back to their families in Mexico...

have a few out there that I talk to a lot and am semi close to... two of them (a father and daughter) are sending the majority of their checks back to Mexico to help their daughter/sister out with doctor bills ( some form of cancer)... the girl was fired last week for the third time, her dad has been let go twice, but I'm sure I'll see her back out at the same position this week with a new SSC#...

I know of one who was fired a year ago (I haven't seen him back, probably the hardest worker they've ever sent over here)... the guy was a tad over 30 I believe... he was working almost every day so that he could send most of his money back to Mexico because he had 9 children there... can you blame him for doing that? Absolutely not, but it's not MY America's problem he has 9 kids in another country and it's hard for him to give 'em nice things over there...

I just think this country has lost its sense of pride... we have problems, we feel compassionate for those who may be causing the problems so we try and say "it's not a problem" so that we feel we no longer have the problem... So you work at a plant that has someone outside their gate handing out FAKE SSC#'s? And no ones turned em in? Well there's the problem right there.

King_LeYoeNidas

01-07-2008, 08:48 PM

well if your average, uneducated US citizen was willing to do the same job in the fields and construction and everywhere else for the same wages, there wouldn't be a problem. Its a losing argument that you can't change. Deal with it.

sinfan75

01-07-2008, 09:00 PM

I worked with a guy from Mexico back in the early 80's on the drilling rigs. He didn't sneak across. Had his green card to come over and work you know "LEGAL"? Worked seven and seven. He did it the LEGAL way. Now why can't the rest of em come over and work LEGAL! Oh and seeing Mexican immigrants flying the Mexican flag above the U.S. flag with the the U.S. flag upside down on American soil doesn't exactly help their cause for looking for the American dream.

JasperDog94

01-07-2008, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by King_LeYoeNidas
well if your average, uneducated US citizen was willing to do the same job in the fields and construction and everywhere else for the same wages, there wouldn't be a problem. Its a losing argument that you can't change. Deal with it. It's not a losing argument. It's called pushing for change and it's part of the American way. The way I chose to "deal with it" is to hold my elected officials as accountable as I can on the issues I care about.

IHStangFan

01-08-2008, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I've spent considerable time in inner-city schools. Was a volunteer at one for two and a half years. My fiance's also a bilingual teacher. I know a thing or two about the subject from all sides. While I completely agree with you about the health care issue, there is ZERO drain on the education system. As I said earlier, they put more money in our system than they take out. Sure, they give her a $4k stipend to teach "bilingual" education, but their definition of "bilingual" is to teach them exclusively in English. They're supposed to be completely immersed in English by fifth grade.

I'd like to see a true bilingual program, and one that's open to all kids, not just Spanish-speaking ones. The system in which she teaches is junk.

Now this is a good argument. It's against the law, but why is it illegal? I want to know why, and I want concrete answers, not just "because it's illegal." While that's a good enough reason not to do it, why is it that way? Drinking underage is illegal, but it happens all the time. However, it's usually poorly justified (unless with parents) so I'm still against it.

And I know what you mean when you say many countries are tighter on their borders than we are, but saying the majority is overstepping it a little. South Korea still has a tight lockdown on North Korea, and they're still skeptical about letting Japanese in their borders even after all these years. Same goes for Israel, with possibly the most heavily-guarded borders of any nation in the world. But Japan, Canada, Syria, Costa Rica, Mexico, etc, etc, etc, keep their borders relatively unchecked (granted, Japan's an island.)

Gilmus, you hit the nail on the head on the NAFTA issue. Delegates from several Central American countries along with Colombia have actually been throwing out the idea of CAFTA, and it's gaining steam right now. Globalization is real, and because we make more money than just about any other country in the world per capita (with the obvious exception of countries like Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, the Vatican, etc.), our real wages will continue to decline as the trade corridors open up. Michigan's already feeling it in a big way. They've been hit harder than anyone, and that's why you're hearing radio and TV ads trying to persuade businesses to move to Michigan in Houston and Corpus. Immigration act of 1924 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924) It is not aimed at just mexicans...mexican nationals are just in the spotlight becuase of the sheer numbers of them that are pouring across the border. I feel that most of you really have no IDEA how many are actually coming across each night...not so much in Texas..but when I lived in Arizona..I could see Naco Mexico from my porch at night, and it was beyond words. Russ...I gather from your comments on countries and their borders that you haven't been out of the US other than maybe Mexico and/or Canada. I, as you know have seen most of the world, and yes...MAJORITY is an accurate description on the number of countries that have strict laws governing entrance into their country, i.e. stringent rules and regs on obtaining a visa, ESPECIALLY a work visa, etc. I know first hand how strict England can be. Because of the fact that I had to hold Kuwaiti citizenship to work over there ...I had a citizenship stamp in my passport....that equaled a 3 hour stint in a back room at London Gatwick Airport w/ alot of questions thrown my way. So please, don't try to tell me how you know more about other countries and their stance on imigration than I. You know I respect you man, but come on. Also "why is it illegal?" Why is it illegal to drive 120mph down main street in Ingleside? BECAUSE IT IS. Laws are laws and are usually in place for good reason. You know my stance....come into the country legally, doccumented, pay taxes, like the rest of us...and I'm fine w/ it. My disapproval of this issue has NOHTING to do w/ these peoples' ethnic background, and I think thats where the problem lies....it seems tome get butthurt thinking that is why some such as myself have such a stance. For me its more about obeying laws, being a productive part of this society, paying taxes like I do (instead of living off of my tax dollars) etc. If it were the Canadians doing it, I'd feel the same way. Another issue of mine is security. If the mexicans can flood across the borders so easy...who's to say some that certain religious extremists are not doing the same thing? SECURE OUR BORDERS AND TIGHTEN UP ON IMMIGRATION. Thank you and good night.

Brief Breakdown on Immigration Laws/Acts in this country over time (http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/USMigrat.html)

IHStangFan

01-08-2008, 12:40 AM

PS...

I'd just like to add Russ....I hope we're not confusing VISITING a country w/ trying to go over and saying "okay, I'm gonna live here, lemme have a baby and we're set" cause...I assure you...we're one of the few nations in the world what is PC enough to let that take place. BIG difference in going over on vacation and trying to become a citizen or live somewhere w/out a citizenship stamp or a work visa. It just doesn't happen anywhere else but here.

big daddy russ

01-08-2008, 03:56 AM

B, I lived in South Korea when I was younger. I haven't visited any countries outside of Mexico, Canada, Japan, and Singapore since, and I don't have the world view of living in as many different countries as you. And don't take my comments the wrong way... I'm not saying I'm against us policing the border. I completely agree that border patrol agents should enforce our borders because this is our country. What I don't understand is why we're throwing tens of billions of dollars at the problem when we're making more problems than we're fixing.

I'd like someone completely free of outside influence to do a complete cost analysis of the problem and tell us objectively how much we should be spending on it. Sit down, look at the problem, talk to the people it drains the most (health care providers), then make a realistic budget. I've heard that this wall is supposed to cut the budget in half, which would be fine by me, except for the problems it causes with ranchers, property owners, wildlife, etc. Besides that, the cost of the wall will run somewhere between $800 million and a $1.2 billion.

I just want to know why it's become such a huge topic lately. As far as my vote goes, it's only the sixth-most important topic in the upcoming elections. I think these things are more important and pressing than controlling immigration:

1. Balance the budget. Period. The following issues all deal with this central theme. I'm tired of being owned by China.

2. Making Iraq stable so we can bring our boys home. (Read: Finish the job before pulling out. However long it takes. I don't want to go back again.)

3. Managing the economy. IMO, a recession is right around the corner. We've enjoyed way too much economic prosperity under Clinton and Bush to hope for this trend to continue, and must start taking steps right now to stablize the economy when it crashes.

3. Social Security. We need to privatize, but gradually. And we need to start now.

4. Health care. And no, I don't want the government too involved. I'm definitely a "small government" kinda guy and don't think they need to micromanage every aspect of our lives, and that includes health care. What would be nice, though, is if they could find a way to get health care to those who need it without crushing the system as we know it. After all, this system has allowed us the best health care in the world. Maybe take a little from welfare to give to health care.

5. Speaking of welfare... Last year I heard a speech given by Ronald Reagan in 1967. He pointed out that the poverty level in the United States at the time was something like $3k, and that the welfare system was spending $4,200 a person to keep the system going. Said that the system has outlived its use. After looking into it, nothing has changed. I don't mind helping out those who need it, but we need a better way of doing it.

6. Find a happy balance between budget and policing the border. I'm not talking about abandoning everything, but I'd like to find a way to make it work without shutting off access to the Rio Grande. I've spent some of my best Spring Breaks rafting through Big Bend. I wouldn't trade that for all the security in the world.

That's how I'll vote. That's how I've become a fan of Mitt Romney and Joe Biden and that's why I don't care much for the candidates who play off the hysteria instead of looking for logical answers to it.

IMO, if we really want to control the border, we're going about it wrong. We need to give them reasons to stay down there. Otherwise, they're going to keep coming. In a perfect world, we'd start giving bigger subsidies and tax cuts to small farmers and ranchers (because they're being ridden right out of business by corporations who get the extra perks), begin a major crackdown on employers exactly one year after those breaks go into effect (to give the farmers and ranchers a chance to get on their feet and cut their ties without being crippled until the subsidies come), then encouraging American companies to continue to expand down into Mexico, making Mexico's economy more stable and bringing more money into the US. Vicente Fox and now Calderon have stated on several occassions that they would be willing to work with us on this type of deal, cutting extra deals to companies who are willing to offer jobs down there. General Motors and HEB have taken advantage of these offers, opening up plants/stores/etc. south of the border.

The problem now is that we're taking jobs away from Americans, but with the push from Japanese automakers to open up plants here in the US, it's a wash and doesn't hurt the economy.... just don't tell that to a Detroit native.

Aesculus gilmus

01-08-2008, 08:30 AM

The United States federal government has "jumped the shark" and is an unworkable system.

It's time for a "reset" and that would entail NOT merging with Canada and Mexico (as the powers that be are determined to force down our throats), but breaking down the former USA into smaller, more manageable geographical units. Same thing happened to the former USSR 16 years ago.

God, I miss football season!

IHStangFan

01-08-2008, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by big daddy russ
B, I lived in South Korea when I was younger. I haven't visited any countries outside of Mexico, Canada, Japan, and Singapore since, and I don't have the world view of living in as many different countries as you. And don't take my comments the wrong way... I'm not saying I'm against us policing the border. I completely agree that border patrol agents should enforce our borders because this is our country. What I don't understand is why we're throwing tens of billions of dollars at the problem when we're making more problems than we're fixing.

I'd like someone completely free of outside influence to do a complete cost analysis of the problem and tell us objectively how much we should be spending on it. Sit down, look at the problem, talk to the people it drains the most (health care providers), then make a realistic budget. I've heard that this wall is supposed to cut the budget in half, which would be fine by me, except for the problems it causes with ranchers, property owners, wildlife, etc. Besides that, the cost of the wall will run somewhere between $800 million and a $1.2 billion.

I just want to know why it's become such a huge topic lately. As far as my vote goes, it's only the sixth-most important topic in the upcoming elections. I think these things are more important and pressing than controlling immigration:

1. Balance the budget. Period. The following issues all deal with this central theme. I'm tired of being owned by China.

2. Making Iraq stable so we can bring our boys home. (Read: Finish the job before pulling out. However long it takes. I don't want to go back again.)

3. Managing the economy. IMO, a recession is right around the corner. We've enjoyed way too much economic prosperity under Clinton and Bush to hope for this trend to continue, and must start taking steps right now to stablize the economy when it crashes.

3. Social Security. We need to privatize, but gradually. And we need to start now.

4. Health care. And no, I don't want the government too involved. I'm definitely a "small government" kinda guy and don't think they need to micromanage every aspect of our lives, and that includes health care. What would be nice, though, is if they could find a way to get health care to those who need it without crushing the system as we know it. After all, this system has allowed us the best health care in the world. Maybe take a little from welfare to give to health care.

5. Speaking of welfare... Last year I heard a speech given by Ronald Reagan in 1967. He pointed out that the poverty level in the United States at the time was something like $3k, and that the welfare system was spending $4,200 a person to keep the system going. Said that the system has outlived its use. After looking into it, nothing has changed. I don't mind helping out those who need it, but we need a better way of doing it.

6. Find a happy balance between budget and policing the border. I'm not talking about abandoning everything, but I'd like to find a way to make it work without shutting off access to the Rio Grande. I've spent some of my best Spring Breaks rafting through Big Bend. I wouldn't trade that for all the security in the world.

That's how I'll vote. That's how I've become a fan of Mitt Romney and Joe Biden and that's why I don't care much for the candidates who play off the hysteria instead of looking for logical answers to it.

IMO, if we really want to control the border, we're going about it wrong. We need to give them reasons to stay down there. Otherwise, they're going to keep coming. In a perfect world, we'd start giving bigger subsidies and tax cuts to small farmers and ranchers (because they're being ridden right out of business by corporations who get the extra perks), begin a major crackdown on employers exactly one year after those breaks go into effect (to give the farmers and ranchers a chance to get on their feet and cut their ties without being crippled until the subsidies come), then encouraging American companies to continue to expand down into Mexico, making Mexico's economy more stable and bringing more money into the US. Vicente Fox and now Calderon have stated on several occassions that they would be willing to work with us on this type of deal, cutting extra deals to companies who are willing to offer jobs down there. General Motors and HEB have taken advantage of these offers, opening up plants/stores/etc. south of the border.

The problem now is that we're taking jobs away from Americans, but with the push from Japanese automakers to open up plants here in the US, it's a wash and doesn't hurt the economy.... just don't tell that to a Detroit native. Billions of dollars? The problem is that there is not ENOUGH being spent to fix this problem. There is already a wall in place in SEVERAL locations along the border and has been for years. It just has several gaping holes that span for hundreds of miles. Basically they are a band-aide on a bullet wound. There has been TALK of spending billions to "build a wall" but...thats all that its been so far...talk..so I don't know how we can say billions have been spent on this issue...but one of the major issues is that the border patrol is very undermanned and underfunded. Hence lies the heart of the problem/stalemate/delima or what have you. Do we ramp up the border patrol, properly equip them w/ the manpower needed to successfully police the border...or do we build a multi-billion dollar fence? er...should I say FINISH the fence. I forget what the exact figure is as far as border patrol agents to miles of international border...but it isn't in the BP agent's favor. I was reading where in 1992 over HALF of all illegal border apprehensions (thats people that were actually CAUGHT..not counting the ones that MADE it) were caught in an 18 miles stretch of border....theres 1600 miles of border inbetween the US and Mexico! So...how many did we MISS? The "hot bed" if you will has shifted in recent years from Southern California to Southern Arizona as well. I witnessed this first hand, and it is indescribable. If you have not witnessed this for yourself, I don't expect you to understand. I would sit on my porch and watch the agents race up and down the roads at all hour of the day and night capturing people, you'd drive by and they'd have 15 people on the side of the road..and this was an everyday occurance and happened several times a day. There is a wall that runs from Naco to about Palominas, AZ. It's about a 15 mile stretch....it doesn't slow em down at all. I'm really not a fan of the whole wall idea. The agents are undermanned, outnumbered and fighting a losing battle. Something needs to be done, and I don't think a wall is quite the answer. Attacks on agents have gone up, and are becoming increasingly violent....do some research. There's alot more to all of this than most have any idea. This you can trust me on. That or move to Southern AZ for a year and see for yourself.

Emerson1

01-08-2008, 08:11 PM

A fence wouldn't do much anyways. They did a segment on Penn and Tellers BS.

They had 6 mexicans build a wall that was a replica to the border wall. Took them all day to build. Then they went into groups of 2, each group either went over, through, or under. Took under 10 minutes for the last one to get through, I think it was the through team

King_LeYoeNidas

01-08-2008, 08:14 PM

well considering my thread has been completely hijacked, I guess we can say you people fear Mexicans more than gays. Thanks a lot.

JasperDog94

01-08-2008, 08:38 PM

They built a stretch of this fence in San Diego an illegal crossings dropped dramatically and crime went down over 70%. I'll see if I can find the official stats for you.

JasperDog94

01-08-2008, 08:42 PM

Looks like it's working!:cool:

Link (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928)

As Congress looks to revamp immigration policy, some lawmakers are pushing to extend fencing along the U.S. border with Mexico. Proposals range from beefing up existing fences in Arizona to constructing new fences that would span 700 miles. Those advocating expanded fencing already have a model they can look to: a fence the federal government built more than a decade ago along a 14-mile-stretch in San Diego, Calif., that borders Tijuana, Mexico.

Before the fence was built, all that separated that stretch of Mexico from California was a single strand of cable that demarcated the international border.

Back then, Border Patrol agent Jim Henry says he was overwhelmed by the stream of immigrants who crossed into the United States illegally just in that sector.

"It was an area that was out of control," Henry says. "There were over 100,000 aliens crossing through this area a year." He says apprehensions here are down 95 percent, from 100,000 a year to 5,000 a year, largely because the single strand of cable marking the border was replaced by double -- and in some places, triple -- fencing.

Today, Henry is assistant chief of the Border Patrol's San Diego sector.

The first fence, 10 feet high, is made of welded metal panels. The second fence, 15 feet high, consists of steel mesh, and the top is angled inward to make it harder to climb over. Finally, in high-traffic areas, there's also a smaller chain-link fence. In between the two main fences is 150 feet of "no man's land," an area that the Border Patrol sweeps with flood lights and trucks, and soon, surveillance cameras.

"Here in San Diego, we have proven that the border infrastructure system does indeed work," Henry says. "It is highly effective."

Rancher Carol Kimsey, who lives in a valley near the Pacific Ocean on the U.S.-side of the fence, says the border barrier has improved the quality of life in the area.

"It was pretty seriously bad," she recalls of the prefence days. "They were tearing up everything. They'd just go through fences. They didn't care."

Kimsey says life is more peaceful now, despite the Border Patrol helicopters circling nearby. This is still an active smuggling route, especially for drugs. A stretch of border where there's only one fence is referred to as Smugglers' Gulch. The Border Patrol is moving forward with plans to add a second fence there as well as along the last 3.5 miles to the ocean, which had been held up by years of litigation over environmental concerns.

The extra fencing will cost at least $35 million. But Claudio Smith, an attorney and border activist, says the toll has been much higher in human lives. She says the fencing has simply forced immigrants to take more dangerous routes through the mountains and scorching-hot deserts.

"It didn't stop people from crossing," she says. "It just forced them to cross in the deadliest stretches of the border."

An estimated 3,600 people have died crossing the U.S. border since the fences went up.

It is now harder to cross the border into the United States, and also more expensive. Border crossers say they pay human smugglers, or coyotes, much more than they did a decade ago.

Smith says the fence has actually created a sort of perverse and unintended consequence: It is keeping people in the United States who used to go back to Mexico.

"The men would come for a number of months out of every year and return (to Mexico)," Smith says. "Now, not only are the men staying, but they're bringing their families."

During the last decade, millions of people have continued to cross the border illegally -- mostly in Arizona. That's the next target for those who want to build double- and triple-fencing.

JasperDog94

01-08-2008, 08:53 PM

Want more proof?

Link (http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/systems/border-barrier.htm)

....

With the establishment of the fence, crime rates in San Diego fell by nearly half between 1989 and 2000. The number of illegal immigrant apprehensions decreased from more than a half million in 1993 to just over a hundred thousand in 2003. The fence also helped stem the tide of drug smuggling with cocaine seizures dropping from 1200 pounds to about 150 pounds and a decline of 58,000 pounds of marijuana coming across the San Diego border in 1993 to just over 36 thousand pounds a decade later.

Yet another.

Link (http://sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=261170)

...

Fencing is a proven approach. With the establishment of the San Diego border fence, crime rates in San Diego have fallen off dramatically. According to the FBI crime index, crime in San Diego County dropped 56 percent between 1989 and 2000, after the fence was built. This is a whole county. It was a huge lawless area. Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, lives in San Diego. He called me several months ago to give me some personal insight into the economic growth, the security, and safety on both sides of the border, after this lawless area was brought under control by a fence. It is a proven success.

Vehicle drive-throughs, where people drive across the border and run right past anybody who may be watching them, have fallen between 6 to 10 per day before the construction of the border infrastructure to only four drive-throughs in the whole year of 2004.

...