Interesting Enrollment Facts

[Old Tiger]

Note: This is a compiled list from all of those who competed in the 3a state championships.

LH was smaller than Gilmer, Pleasanton, Navasota, Carthage, and Robinson. *No school LH played in the playoffs had a smaller enrollment.

Celina was smaller than China Spring, Snyder, Pittsburg, West, Emory Rains and Glen Rose. *No school Celina played in the playoffs had a smaller enrollment

Gilmer was smaller than Roosevelt, Abilene Wylie, Mabank, and Liberty-Eylau. *Only one school Gilmer played in the playoffs was smaller than Gilmer and that was the division 1 state champions LH.

China Spring was smaller than Cuero, La Vega, and Kirbyville. *Only three schools China Spring faced had smaller enrollements in Rockdale, Westood, and the division II state champions Celina.


IMO enrollment does not matter as much as one would think and I think the need for two divisions because of enrollment is a pointless process.

[TheDOCTORdre]

so by looking at this then which ever school, Liberty Hill or Celina has the smaller enrollment that school would win...haha

[Johnny Utah]

Enrollment does matter, period. If you look at the programs that are on top over years and years of study. Most if not all are at the upper end of their classification. Sure there will be exceptions, one is South Lake Carroll, but enrollment does matter. 3a will have a vast makeup this time around I am sure. Going to be interesting to see the exact number from top to bottom, but if you are a large school in your division, the better off you are.

[thewyliefan]

im going with go blue, its not as big a deal as some people want it to be

[VWG]

Enrollment does matter.
Think about it. Let's say you have 35-40 more guys out from soph. to senior than another school.
That will help anybody out. You've got more athletes to choose from. Probably able to suit out players that will only play offense or defense, etc...

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by VWG
Enrollment does matter.
Think about it. Let's say you have 35-40 more guys out from soph. to senior than another school.
That will help anybody out. You've got more athletes to choose from. Probably able to suit out players that will only play offense or defense, etc... Royse City and Hutto have 4a numbers.

Hutto did not make playoffs.
Royse City only made it to the second round and got beat by a school who is smaller. They also barely squeeked by Wakeland who got destroyed by Celina in district play.

[VWG]

Originally posted by Go Blue
Royse City and Hutto have 4a numbers.

Hutto did not make playoffs.
Royse City only made it to the second round and got beat by a school who is smaller. They also barely squeeked by Wakeland who got destroyed by Celina in district play.

That's two, keep them coming.
Look at the playoff teams in most districts. Clyde, Sweetwater, Wylie... who got left out Breckenridge and Comanche. Smaller schools.
Canyon made the playoffs... big enrollment. Burkburnett and Graham... over 700 kids for Graham and Burk was just under 3A cutoff last realignment. Decatur made the playoffs again... big enrollment.
Take the smallest schools in 3A and see how many made the playoffs. Bigger schools will come out on top. Run the numbers.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by VWG
That's two, keep them coming.
Look at the playoff teams in most districts. Clyde, Sweetwater, Wylie... who got left out Breckenridge and Comanche. Smaller schools.
Canyon made the playoffs... big enrollment. Burkburnett and Graham... over 700 kids for Graham and Burk was just under 3A cutoff last realignment. Decatur made the playoffs again... big enrollment.
Take the smallest schools in 3A and see how many made the playoffs. Bigger schools will come out on top. Run the numbers. Anthony, the smallest 3a school with 228.5 students, made the playoffs.

Cameron Yoe made the playoffs and they were the smallest team in the district. Taylor did not make the playoffs and they were the second largest team in the district behind Hutto who also did not make the playoffs.

Colombus was the second smallest team in it's district. West Columbia is the largest team in that district and they failed to make the playoffs.

Lytle was the smallest team in their district and advanced to the second round.

Palacious was the smallest team in their district and made playoffs.

Emory Rains was the was the second smallest team in their district and made the playoffs. Quinland Ford, second largest in the district, did not make the playoffs.

[Johnny Utah]

There are exceptions, but you have to look at Anthony's district, come on man! That district is WEAK!!!! Taylor should make the playoffs every year in 3a with their numbers. Hutto should as well. How good will Hutto be with 3a numbers in 4a? Cameron has a tradition, the others do not. Hutto does not have a tradition in football, year in and year out like Cameron does. Wylie is a large school as is Canyon. Canyon is flourishing in 3a as is Burkburnett(could not do much in 4a). Wakeland is a young school, numbers are only going to get bigger and they may not be able to adjust to the growth. Celina is a football factory, numbers do not matter it is the quality of athletes there. Other places numbers do matter. Andrews, big 3a, make the playoffs. Snyder same difference, they would be average 4a's. I could go on and on, but of course everyone has their opinion. Has nothing to do with Div. 1 or 2, has to do with numbers period. Comanche, dominated in 2a, CAN NOT IN 3A. Alto, huge 1a school, back to back STate titles that they could not get in 2a. Tatum, same difference in 2a as they are a perennial power in 2a, NOT 3a. What has elgin or manor done in 4a? IF they were still 3a, look out.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by Johnny Utah
difference in 2a as they are a perennial power in 2a, NOT 3a. What has elgin or manor done in 4a? IF they were still 3a, look out. Manor and Elgin are in the weak AISD district. Last time Manor was 3a they finished with only one or two wins.


With all this being said and yalls theory of enrollment meaning so much then how can teams with smaller enrollments even make playoffs especially if they are in the lower tier of enrollments.

[CelinaCatFan]

Originally posted by Go Blue
Royse City and Hutto have 4a numbers.

Hutto did not make playoffs.
Royse City only made it to the second round and got beat by a school who is smaller. They also barely squeeked by Wakeland who got destroyed by Celina in district play.

For what it's worth, Frisco Wakeland has somewhere between 1500-1600 students this year. Not sure about Royse City. RC may actually have been the smaller school in that matchup.

[alaskacat]

Lamarque ran off a couple in a row when 4a was not divided, then came the division and they were always DIV II and it made no difference, they just won easier.

Tatum was 3a Div II in 05, then 2a Div 1 last year, then got popped by Farmersville this year,.

South Lake is a perennial DIV II 5A, Last year they moved up to Div I and sent Trinity packing in the first round.

Crawford is a tiny 2A and yet beat Celina,

It happens all the time and is not the exception to the rule.

I can dig some farther but the results will be the same.

What happened to Gainsville? Big numbers, but Celina beats them while Celina was 2A.

I think you will find it is success=strength of program, and has nothing to do with numbers until it is many hundred different.

[alaskacat]

Originally posted by Johnny Utah
Enrollment does matter, period. If you look at the programs that are on top over years and years of study. Most if not all are at the upper end of their classification. Sure there will be exceptions, one is South Lake Carroll, but enrollment does matter. 3a will have a vast makeup this time around I am sure. Going to be interesting to see the exact number from top to bottom, but if you are a large school in your division, the better off you are.

I will make a small wager, I don't care how the realignment goes next time. When the smoke clears in 3A you are going to be looking at LH and Celina being right in the thick of it when it is all done.

Neither will be anywhere near the top of their Classification.

[Johnny Utah]

You dudes do not seem to understand. Celina is a PROVEN program, would not matter what numbers they had, they would compete in any classification. Same as South Lake Carroll. You are right, tradition, strength of program does matter. BUT, SIZE helps all those others that do not have STRENGTH. Are you telling me that Pilot Point, once a POWER in 2a is the same in 3a? I will wager with you anytime. Been around this realignment a long time. SIZE for the most part, not always, equals success. Long term programs such as Crawford, can win in 1a or 2a due to their tradition and GENE POOL, just like Celina. Others are not soooo lucky. LH was a doormat at one time. They have won a couple of state titles, are they a perennial super 3a power, maybe so, and you are correct, only time will tell. Everything, NOT ALWAYS, but for the most part, cycles in 3a. Manor was a POWER IN 2A. Ever hear of Derek Spears??? They got into 3a, took some time, but they started having success, went to 4a and they are struggling again. EVERMAN, 3a = State title in Football and Basketball, 4a???? Still waiting!!! Now, when Brownwood and Fredricksburg drop, you can say I told you so!!!!
I tell you what Go Blue, when you get that first coaching job, find the smallest school in class 3a that has not had much tradition and see if you can win. I will square off with you in the school with the largest enrollment in the same classification. See my point?
Navasota should win in 3a. They did when they were in 3a before, 35-0 in basketball in 1990!!! Went 4a and did not have as much success. THey are back in 3a and from what I hear have some very talented classes to make another run in all sports!!
Waco Connally, not much success in 4a, 3a is another story. They can compete with most in 3a.
Andrews: Do you think they want to be in a district with.... Frenship, Big Spring, Estacado, Plainview, Lakeview? Or with their current 3a district? Ha !!!
Here is another one for you.... Would be interesting to find out how many of the players on this last Celina State Title team were actually in school at Celina the entire way through, K-12. Seems to me the better programs, especially those around a metropolitan area attract athletes and their families. How many of Cuero's players were in Cuero in the 2nd grade?
I bet you money most of Andrews, Sweetwaters, Wylies kids were there the entire way through. Burk might be the exception due to the Military.

[CenTexSports]

I don't think that there is a clear winner to this argument. However, the bottom line can not be argued: The larger the school, the larger the potential pool of athletes. I call a lot of
2a, 3a and 4a games. There are really good teams at all levels but when you walk into Salado one week and into Cove the next, you have to admit that the numbers give Cove huge potential up side.


After that it goes to tradition, coaching and training.

[Johnny Utah]

That is all I am saying. Salado is a rather large 2a, will they have the same success in 3a? Harper has had a lot of recent success in 1a, will going 2a post the same success? Cove dropped to 4a and WOW!!!

[zebrablue2]

Originally posted by CenTexSports
I don't think that there is a clear winner to this argument. However, the bottom line can not be argued: The larger the school, the larger the potential pool of athletes. I call a lot of
2a, 3a and 4a games. There are really good teams at all levels but when you walk into Salado one week and into Cove the next, you have to admit that the numbers give Cove huge potential up side.


After that it goes to tradition, coaching and training.


agreed...

[WOS87]

Originally posted by CenTexSports
I don't think that there is a clear winner to this argument. However, the bottom line can not be argued: The larger the school, the larger the potential pool of athletes. I call a lot of
2a, 3a and 4a games. There are really good teams at all levels but when you walk into Salado one week and into Cove the next, you have to admit that the numbers give Cove huge potential up side.


After that it goes to tradition, coaching and training.

I think there's a very clear winner to the argument... It's invalid to make sweeping generalizations using individual cases. Yes, there are teams with a relatively smaller enrollment that have been successful, but ON AVERAGE, the schools with the larger enrollment ALWAYS do better than schools with smaller enrollment.

A few numbers to prove the point (all enrollment figures used were the official ones from the 2006-08 realignment):

There were 41 schools in class 3A that ended the '07 season with anywhere from 0 to 2 total wins. The average enrollment of those 41 schools is: 601.2

There were 32 schools in 3A who won 3 or 4 total games in 2007. The average enrollment of those 32 is: 615.2

There were 33 schools in 3A who won 5 or 6 total games in 2007. The average enrollment of those 33 is: 640.9

There were 33 schools in 3A who won 7 or 8 total games. The average enrollment of those 33 is: 650.3

There were 35 schools in 3A who won 9 games or more in 2007. The average enrollment of those 35 schools is: 667.4

0-2 wins = avg enrollment of 601
3-4 wins = avg enrollment of 615
5-6 wins = avg enrollment of 641
7-8 wins = avg enrollment of 650
9+ wins = avg enrollment of 667

If you look at the playoffs this year, in the round of 64 of the D2 playoffs 18 out of 30 games (60%) were won by the school with larger enrollment.

In the round of 32 of the D1 and D2 playoffs combined, 17 out of 31 games (55%) were won by the school with larger enrollment. Once you get to the deeper rounds you don't have enough teams left to make a statistically significant finding....

If you look at the individual districts you'll find that the school with the largest enrollment qualified for the playoffs in 23 out of 31 districts in 2007 (74%)

The school with the smallest enrollment qualified for the playoffs in only 12 out of 31 districts in 2007 (39%)

[K-MAC Chuck]

Originally posted by Go Blue
Royse City and Hutto have 4a numbers.

Hutto did not make playoffs.

Honestly, you need to put Hutto in the "exception" category for the past season.

We talked to Lee Penland a couple of times thru the year. At one time or another, his team lost, (if I have this right):
*The starting RB
*The starting FB
*Two starting WRs
*Two starting OL
*The backup RB and FB
*Several Defensive starters

It was so bad that most everyone in Central Texas was feeling sorry for the Hippos - even LH fans!

I'm guessing someone from Hutto can enlighten me/us on these issues as well...

[SpeedOption]

Hutto did quite well before this year with large numbers. Injuries killed them.

[catgut]

I definitely agee that having more students gives you a better chance of getting more athletes. It does not however give you a guaranteed sucessful season.
This past few years Paris has around 930-950 students and having to compete against Texas High with close to 1900. Needless to say, we did not compete in football. Other sports we held our own but football is a different breed.

[BwdLion_80]

I can promise you that in most cases, enrollment does make a difference. Is this to say that just because a school with a small enrollment will lose every time to a bigger school, well no, that will never be true. Here is an example. This year when Brownwood, 977.5 enrollment, played Cove, 1,950 or so enrollment, we suited up 34 players, Cove suited up 60. The Cove players just about all looked like they could play for a college team. I did not see a single player under 6' tall anywhere and all of them were very solid looking kids. Brownwood had 12 players that were 5'8 or 5'9. Yes, we beat Cove that night, but on most nights it would not have been that way. This is where the program and coaching comes in, doing the most with the least is one way to look at it. Our entire district this past season was large when it came to the kids playing football, outside of Brownwood. Every team in our district was between 1750 and 1950 with the exception of Waco U. When you go week to week and see the kind of kids that our district had in it, it makes it very noticable. There is no arguement that can convince me that enrollment does not matter, IT DOES!

The one big difference maker on the enrollment factor is the amount of participation that a school has. Take Abilene Wylie for example. They have about 950 kids in school and the suit up 60 or so on varsity. I would bet that their participation numbers are incredible! They would have to have about 50 to 60% of thier boys play football. This can/will be a difference maker a lot of the time. If I were to guess, I would have to say that Brownwood's participation level is about 35% of the boys in school play football, and that may be on the high side.

The demographic make up of schools can play a huge part in the participation numbers too. As bad as I hate to say it, it appears that the more affluent areas, SLC, Wylie, Celina and others, most of the time, appear to have the better football teams. Yes, there are others that come from less affluent areas that are pretty darned good too, but overall, the more affluent, the better the team. Basketball is about the only team sport that this does not hold true on.

Also, I don't say this to be racial or anything like that, it is just a fact.

[SpeedOption]

True. Wait until Brownwood drops to 3A. Lets see if the big enrollment makes a difference huh? They might tie Celina with 8 oe 7 1/2 or whatever everyone believes.

[waterboy]

You could make $everal argument$ either way about the D1 and D2 $plit. The fact of the matter i$ that there are pro$ and con$ to having two divi$ion$. The number$ are not a$ big a factor a$ much a$ the coaching and the program$ they employ. For example, look at Celina; they will be a good team no matter which cla$$ification they are placed in, Liberty Hill al$o. I can't think of a $ingle rea$on why they (the UIL) would implement $uch a divi$ive $y$tem.:thinking: :D

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by waterboy
You could make $everal argument$ either way about the D1 and D2 $plit. The fact of the matter i$ that there are pro$ and con$ to having two divi$ion$. The number$ are not a$ big a factor a$ much a$ the coaching and the program$ they employ. For example, look at Celina; they will be a good team no matter which cla$$ification they are placed in, Liberty Hill al$o. I can't think of a $ingle rea$on why they (the UIL) would implement $uch a divi$ive $y$tem.:thinking: :D

:clap: $$:clap: :clap:

[Phil C]

I definately feel enrollment makes a difference. When Sinton went to state against Everman we were playing a school that lacked one student in beinng classified in 4A while we were one of the smaller Division 1 Schools in the playoffs and there were some in Division 2 that had a larger enrollment than us. No offense is intended for anyone but I feel if we had been in Division 2 that year we would have had a state championship in football. Again that is just my opinion.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by BwdLion_80
I can promise you that in most cases, enrollment does make a difference. Is this to say that just because a school with a small enrollment will lose every time to a bigger school, well no, that will never be true. Here is an example. This year when Brownwood, 977.5 enrollment, played Cove, 1,950 or so enrollment, we suited up 34 players, Cove suited up 60. The Cove players just about all looked like they could play for a college team. I did not see a single player under 6' tall anywhere and all of them were very solid looking kids. Brownwood had 12 players that were 5'8 or 5'9. Yes, we beat Cove that night, but on most nights it would not have been that way. This is where the program and coaching comes in, doing the most with the least is one way to look at it. Our entire district this past season was large when it came to the kids playing football, outside of Brownwood. Every team in our district was between 1750 and 1950 with the exception of Waco U. When you go week to week and see the kind of kids that our district had in it, it makes it very noticable. There is no arguement that can convince me that enrollment does not matter, IT DOES!

The one big difference maker on the enrollment factor is the amount of participation that a school has. Take Abilene Wylie for example. They have about 950 kids in school and the suit up 60 or so on varsity. I would bet that their participation numbers are incredible! They would have to have about 50 to 60% of thier boys play football. This can/will be a difference maker a lot of the time. If I were to guess, I would have to say that Brownwood's participation level is about 35% of the boys in school play football, and that may be on the high side.

The demographic make up of schools can play a huge part in the participation numbers too. As bad as I hate to say it, it appears that the more affluent areas, SLC, Wylie, Celina and others, most of the time, appear to have the better football teams. Yes, there are others that come from less affluent areas that are pretty darned good too, but overall, the more affluent, the better the team. Basketball is about the only team sport that this does not hold true on.

Also, I don't say this to be racial or anything like that, it is just a fact.

It's going to be nice having you on the board BwdLion_80! Great post! Unfortunately you will find that well thought out, and well written posts like yours will fall on many deaf ears more often than not on here. I have tried making the same argument that you just made on here several times, but to no avail. Most people from those places you mentioned simply don’t understand the unique circumstances faced by small west Texas communities that are far detached from any metropolitan areas from which much of their resources are drawn from.

[BwdLion_80]

Originally posted by STANG RED
It's going to be nice having you on the board BwdLion_80! Great post! Unfortunately you will find that well thought out, and well written posts like yours will fall on many deaf ears more often than not on here. I have tried making the same argument that you just made on here several times, but to no avail. Most people from those places you mentioned simply don’t understand the unique circumstances faced by small west Texas communities that are far detached from any metropolitan areas from which much of their resources are drawn from.

It is great to be on board!!!!

As for everything else, I hear you! It nothing new as just about all the other sites I get the same reactions. It is all good with me. One thing is, you cannot dispute the facts and those are pretty easy to see. We competed pretty well the past 4 years in the Waco area district against teams with pretty much double our enrollment. We are really looking forward to competing at the other end of the spectrum. Will we have more success? Who knows? One thing is for sure we will continue to work hard every day to prepare for 3A just like we did in 4A.

[nobogey72]

Originally posted by STANG RED
It's going to be nice having you on the board BwdLion_80! Great post! Unfortunately you will find that well thought out, and well written posts like yours will fall on many deaf ears more often than not on here. I have tried making the same argument that you just made on here several times, but to no avail. Most people from those places you mentioned simply don’t understand the unique circumstances faced by small west Texas communities that are far detached from any metropolitan areas from which much of their resources are drawn from.

Yeah.... it's nice having you on here right now. Now next October when ya'll are kicking everybody's a$$, then we probably won't be so cordial. That's when we will start accusing you of steroid use, hiding students, and recruiting kids out of Early and Bangs. BTW, what do you attribute Early's sucess the last few years to?

[Old Tiger]

To clear things up a bit I didn't say enrollment didn't. I said it doesn't matter as much as one might think.

[Daddy D 11]

i like brownwood..we won yalls baseball tournament last year :D

[BwdLion_80]

I remember that, I umpired a couple of your games in that tournament last year.

[BwdLion_80]

Originally posted by nobogey72
Yeah.... it's nice having you on here right now. Now next October when ya'll are kicking everybody's a$$, then we probably won't be so cordial. That's when we will start accusing you of steroid use, hiding students, and recruiting kids out of Early and Bangs. BTW, what do you attribute Early's sucess the last few years to?

I only hope that your are correct about next year, but there are a lot of great teams in 3A! It won't be easy by any means.

As for Early's success, going back to 2A had a lot to do with it. Hiring a coach that came from and had a great understanding of a great program was another big part of it. The kids buying into the program really helps too, but a little success makes that happen a lot easier.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by nobogey72
Yeah.... it's nice having you on here right now. Now next October when ya'll are kicking everybody's a$$, then we probably won't be so cordial. That's when we will start accusing you of steroid use, hiding students, and recruiting kids out of Early and Bangs. BTW, what do you attribute Early's sucess the last few years to?

I'd bet Brownwood has lost more decent players to Early and Bangs than they have ever gotten from them. A kid that is a marginal player at B'wood could possibly go be a stud at Early or Bangs.
I know we have lost several players to Highland and Roscoe down through the years, because they can go to one of them and start as a freshman or soph. By the time their juniors and seniors, even if they have turned into a stud they usually stay where their at because of friends and comfort level.
I'd love to see how good we could be if we had 1 team comprised of the good athletes we have + those at Roscoe, Highland, and Blackwell. We'd still be a small 3A, but it would add 10 to 15 more good athletes to our roster that could make a huge difference. Of course it'll never happen, but it's fun to think about.