Question about Defense

[TexanFan4Life]

What defense would you use to stop a Wing T offense? I've been thinking about this for a few days and I think I would go with a Wide 7.

Opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Centextrash]

Split or a 4-3

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by Centextrash
Split or a 4-3

How do you figure a 4-3 can stop the Wing T consistently? I'd really like to hear this.

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
What defense would you use to stop a Wing T offense? I've been thinking about this for a few days and I think I would go with a Wide 7.

Opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

I think it's personnel-related.

If you've got corners and safeties that can play "man" reliably, I'd go with a "50". I don't think I'd go with a "4-3" because of susceptibility to traps.

If you're secondary doesn't play "man" well, and you're forced to play zone, a split defense might work if you've got some hombres at linebacker that can both run and stuff the trap.

I'm partial to a "50" or a "3-4". Whether you call 'em defensive ends, or "cheated-up" outside linebackers, the "3-4" or modified "50", in my opinion, allows for the most defensive variation in response to offensive formations. Outside linebackers with decent speed can even address all the teams that have decided to run the spread offense.

Non-sequitur: I wonder if the spread is here to stay, or if it's a fad like the run-n-shoot.....

[kaorder1999]

any defense can be good against the wing. #1, it depends on what they do out of wing. What is their favorite stuff? Is it the trap? Influence trap? Buck Sweep? Toss sweep? Dives?
#2, figure out what they like the most and what they are best at and gameplan to take it away. Im a HUGE fan of the 3-4 defense and without changing personnel, I can get in a 4-3, 4-2-5, 6-1 or 10-1 look. I can do this by alignment calls as well as tag calls.
The 3-4 takes away angles and allows the backers to make more plays. Alignment is key though. Have to line up to the TE and Wing or Slot in a way to give you a chance to defend the play

[BobcatBenny]

Here is a little convo that I Googled.



I am a head coach/defensive coordinator in Indiana. The wing-t is a very popular offense here. We face it 3-4 times per year, and even experimented with it as our offensive scheme, before I became the head coach. We now run a version of the spread, emphasizing the run.
To defend the wing-t, play the 3-3 odd stack. West Virginia's D. It's an odd front, drive the center off the ball, it disrupts the pulling gaurds, which clogs up the backfield. Cross read the wing with your Sam and Will backer. Your nose, and mike backer take care of trap and dive. Spur and Bandit (over hang players on the outside), take care of jet sweep, buck sweep.

Ultimitely it is the personnel you have on the field. 2 seasons ago, it worked very well defending the wing-t, however nothing that we ran last year would stop anything.
3-3 odd stack will work, if the personnel is there.

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One other thing, your mike backer, should read the triangle, 2 guards, and center, to the Q. If the guards pull, he will see them cross his face, which will take him to the trap. Playside backer should see the through the near G and T, which will allow him to see the pulling guards aw well. The 5 techs. should attack the outside shoulder of the tackles, which will slow them from getting up on the backer (S or W) Penetrate only with the nose (must go through the center, not around)

3 years ago, I played the 5-2 Eagle D. 1, 5, & 9 tech. to the strength and a 3 & 5 weak. Worked o.k., but if the O decides to spread the field, it is difficult to adjust without a personnel change. This is the advantage of 3-3.

[TexanFan4Life]

Thanks for the insight. I like the Wide 7 because of the 2 "Stingers" (Rovers) you have coming off the edge at the outside hip of the nearest RB, or QB to strong side if there is an upback. One of the key characteristics of any Wing T offense (Double Tight, Full House, Upback) is that one or both of the guards is always pulling. You're right about not succumbing to their traps. In a Wide 7, your DTs are playing in a 3-technique and pinching off the snap, not allowing the Guards to be fully effective.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by 88bobcats


Non-sequitur: I wonder if the spread is here to stay, or if it's a fad like the run-n-shoot.....

the spread is here to stay because it is not an offense as much as it is a formation

What teams do out of the spread is the actual offense, some are like TTech and throw all over the place, while Texas runs the zone read out of it

Some have Qbs that could not scramble their way out of a wet bag, while others have a qb that is basically a RB who takes the snap

All the spread does is create one on one match-ups all the way across the defense and opens up windows and lanes, the offense exploits, but it is NOT the actual offense IMO

[kaorder1999]

its funny that they mentioned 3-3...that just another defensive look that you can get into when running the 3-4. I was able to walk up a safety, our leading tackler, and play him right in the middle and then play man-free behind it.

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
the spread is here to stay because it is not an offense as much as it is a formation

What teams do out of the spread is the actual offense, some are like TTech and throw all over the place, while Texas runs the zone read out of it

Some have Qbs that could not scramble their way out of a wet bag, while others have a qb that is basically a RB who takes the snap

All the spread does is create one on one match-ups all the way across the defense and opens up windows and lanes, the offense exploits, but it is NOT the actual offense IMO

The key to a successful Spread offense is "hiding" your superstar playmaker. Florida does this very well. They "hide" Percy Harvin in order to confuse the defense and open up the big play. You have to line your superstar up in different places at least every other play to be successful. At least in my opinion.

[Txbroadcaster]

To add to what I said

A defense could attack the run and shoot the same way from team to team, because the philosophy was the same

With spreads you cant defend one team's spread the same way you do another teams ecause they want to do different things

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by BobcatBenny
Here is a little convo that I Googled.

3-3? Really? Interesting. I would think you could run up the gut all day against a 3-3 in a Wing T formation. If I'm the OC and I go double tight, what are your 6 in the box going to do to hold up in the middle? I don't care what kind of stunts you throw at me, I'm going to shove it down your throat all day long.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
The key to a successful Spread offense is "hiding" your superstar playmaker. Florida does this very well. They "hide" Percy Harvin in order to confuse the defense and open up the big play. You have to line your superstar up in different places at least every other play to be successful. At least in my opinion.

If that is the philosophy of that spread then yes

But Texas ran the spread wit Vince young, he was their superstar and u knew where he would b

again each Spread teams has a different philosophy of what they want to do

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
3-3? Really? Interesting. I would think you could run up the gut all day against a 3-3 in a Wing T formation. If I'm the OC and I go double tight, what are your 6 in the box going to do to hold up in the middle? I don't care what kind of stunts you throw at me, I'm going to shove it down your throat all day long.

thats why its good because thats what some OC's think!! In the 3-3 stack that I like, you still have two outside backers playing run first so there is actually 8 in the box against the run and at the same time you can drop 8

[kaorder1999]

in the 3-4 i like the front 3 are constantly slanting or pinching forcing five o linemen to account for them. That leaves the insider backers scraping freely very similar to the old Bear Front (46) philosophy. Then there are two outside backers playing run first which does make it difficult to defend the play action at times but still have two safeties and two corners in a two shell look and can play man, quarters, can roll to 3, can play 2 man and 2 read behind it all. By alignment it looks like there are 5 in the box to play the run but in reality there are 7. Against the pass there can also be 8 in coverage...up front im not going to just sit in alignments and let you tee off on the dline....there will be a lot of moving and a lot of slanting. Forces the offense to guess a lot

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
thats why its good because thats what some OC's think!! In the 3-3 stack that I like, you still have two outside backers playing run first so there is actually 8 in the box against the run and at the same time you can drop 8

I can go Jet Sweep on you, and throw in a little PA.

[Centextrash]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
How do you figure a 4-3 can stop the Wing T consistently? I'd really like to hear this.

Play 2's & 6's. Have the DT's read guard head, and keep them off of MLB to stop the trap. If you bring a Tackle down on MLB, the Sam or Will should be there to make the play. An influence Trap might be tough to read..

You either roll your corners up and have them help with run support or you can invert the safety depending upon personel.

Either way, It all comes down to who is better than who.

[kaorder1999]

any team can do that but they still have to have the players to do it. Not anyone can run the Pop. And I already talked earlier about the play action causing trouble at times. If a team in heavy with the play action of course it would be addressed

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
I can go Jet Sweep on you, and throw in a little PA.

i wouldnt base out of the stack...it would just be something to throw at the opponent...

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
any team can do that but they still have to have the players to do it. Not anyone can run the Pop. And I already talked earlier about the play action causing trouble at times. If a team in heavy with the play action of course it would be addressed

Do you coach anywhere? Or just a fan?

[FrmSTx]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
If I'm the OC and I go double tight, what are your 6 in the box going to do to hold up in the middle? I don't care what kind of stunts you throw at me, I'm going to shove it down your throat all day long.



in this case, the 3-3 turns into a 3-5, another variation of the 50. The 3-3 was developed to stop spread team's running attack and bring heat on passes

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
Do you coach anywhere? Or just a fan?

He is a DC and a bad mama jama

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
He is a DC and a bad mama jama

oh god...

[TexanFan4Life]

How do you think this would work against it?

DTs both play a 1

Both DEs play Contain on the outside

Sam and Will both shoot the B gap

Mike plays the Dive

Both CBs play inside jam on the WRs

FS plays 10 yds off the LOS in zone coverage

ROV comes off strong side, aiming at outside hip of nearest RB

[kaorder1999]

but like i said, basing out of the 3-4 have its advantages...

with calls can get in a split look by walking down an outside backer, can get in a 3-3 or 3-5 look by walking up a safety and playing man free behind it....can get in a 5-2 look by playing the outside backers up on the line and playing them off the edge....the best part about it all is being able to get in those fornt looks without changing personnel.

[FrmSTx]

Two words, G lead

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
How do you think this would work against it?

DTs both play a 1

Both DEs play Contain on the outside

Sam and Will both shoot the B gap

Mike plays the Dive

Both CBs play inside jam on the WRs

FS plays 10 yds off the LOS in zone coverage

ROV comes off strong side, aiming at outside hip of nearest RB
what alignment would the DEs play?

[FrmSTx]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
but like i said, basing out of the 3-4 have its advantages...

with calls can get in a split look by walking down an outside backer, can get in a 3-3 or 3-5 look by walking up a safety and playing man free behind it....can get in a 5-2 look by playing the outside backers up on the line and playing them off the edge....the best part about it all is being able to get in those fornt looks without changing personnel.

The best part is having the two guys that can play safety/LB/DE

[FrmSTx]

When you have those two guys, life is G-O-O-D, good!

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
what alignment would the DEs play?

Strongside plays a 9...Weakside plays a 5

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
Strongside plays a 9...Weakside plays a 5

thats tough to do when you are playing double 1's. Id rather play the DEs in 5's and play the strongside outside backer in a 9 or head up 6 and solid up the weakside outside backer.

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
thats tough to do when you are playing double 1's. Id rather play the DEs in 5's and play the strongside outside backer in a 9 or head up 6 and solid up the weakside outside backer.

What about changing it up to a 5-2 and having the nose in (at a 0, obviously) and moving the DTs to a 4i and having them pinch? Then would you put the DEs in 9 and 5, respectively?

[kaorder1999]

in tha case, if I played with a head up nose I would play the tackles in wither 4i's or head up 4's and either pinch B gap or slant weak or strong. Then the DE's or OLB's could play a 9 on the TE and solid up on the non TE side and play 3 by 3 off the end man on the LOS.....I like head up 4's because it makes it tougher on the OLine...OC's HATE 4i's and head up 4's....it should eliminate the zone...

[kaorder1999]

MAn...this is an AWESOME thread...I love talking defense

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
MAn...this is an AWESOME thread...I love talking defense

I agree, this is a good thread. Defensive stragety is so much more entertaining than lame ol' offense.

Spread-schmed! I likes me some good defense, I do!

[kaorder1999]

my goal defensively is to not let the offense know exactly what we are in when they make their presnap reads. In the secondary almost everything is out of a cover 2 shell. We are constantly playing games and moving around.

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
in tha case, if I played with a head up nose I would play the tackles in wither 4i's or head up 4's and either pinch B gap or slant weak or strong. Then the DE's or OLB's could play a 9 on the TE and solid up on the non TE side and play 3 by 3 off the end man on the LOS.....I like head up 4's because it makes it tougher on the OLine...OC's HATE 4i's and head up 4's....it should eliminate the zone...

I'd like my tight side DE in either a 5, 6, or 9, so I could prevent him from getting up onto my Outside Backer. It'd be good to have that protection, because I don't want a TE licking his chops at my OLB, unless my backer is an absolute monster.

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
my goal defensively is to not let the offense know exactly what we are in when they make their presnap reads. In the secondary almost everything is out of a cover 2 shell. We are constantly playing games and moving around.

That reminds me of that 1983 Daingerfield Tigers video someone posted on YouTube.....it looked like those Tigers were in something similar to a "50"; but with the speed they had, they played it so loosely that the defensive formation didn't really resemble any one formation.....

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
my goal defensively is to not let the offense know exactly what we are in when they make their presnap reads. In the secondary almost everything is out of a cover 2 shell. We are constantly playing games and moving around.

I agree. I would also rather have my defense dictate what the offense runs, not let the offense dictate what I run.

In response to the other 2 posts about this being an awesome thread..thanks. I love a good defensive X and O conversation.

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
I'd like my tight side DE in either a 5, 6, or 9, so I could prevent him from getting up onto my Outside Backer. It'd be good to have that protection, because I don't having a TE licking his chops at my OLB, unless my backer is an absolute monster.

you could also play the DE in a 7 technique to occupy the TE.....

[88bobcats]

Regardless of the technique you have the down linemen play (1s, 4s, pinches, etc.), their key role is to stuff the traps and pulling blocks and give the linebackers the room to flow to the football. A "3-4" or modified "50" with some agile outside LBs can shut down the run as long as you don't let 'em get a G- or trap-block.

[kaorder1999]

i might also be calling positions something different then you are. Some old school 50 guys call their nose a nose, their 4 techs tackles and their outside backers they called stand up ends.

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
you could also play the DE in a 7 technique to occupy the TE.....

I typically wouldn't care whether he was playing inside or outside shade, or head up, as long as he occupied the guy and kept him off the legs of my OLB.

[kaorder1999]

we teach out outside backers to squeeze tight on run reads and spill the GT to our scraping inside backers and safeties who are running inside out... (which has begun to be a favorite more most spread teams). Our tackles play the dives and such and our backside tackles (4 techs) make a lot of tackles on the zone

[TexanFan4Life]

I would LOVE it if my Outside Backers were quick enough so I could play an Inverted Cover 2. Only thing I don't like about that is it would leave me susceptible to off tackle running. If I walked my SS up, I could get beaten deep. I do like the added protection it'd give me down the sidelines though.

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
we teach out outside backers to squeeze tight on run reads and spill the GT to our scraping inside backers and safeties who are running inside out... (which has begun to be a favorite more most spread teams). Our tackles play the dives and such and our backside tackles (4 techs) make a lot of tackles on the zone

I take it you run a 3-4 at your school...?

[kaorder1999]

im beginning to become a HUGE fan of 2 man. I personnel it from time to time and take my outside backers out in pass situations and bring in two more corner/cover type guys and man up across and play a cover 2 behind it.

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
im beginning to become a HUGE fan of 2 man. I personnel it from time to time and take my outside backers out in pass situations and bring in two more corner/cover type guys and man up across and play a cover 2 behind it.

I love that look. Gives you a lot of flexibility in what you are able to do. Whenever I see a Va Tech game, I follow closely what their guys do out there. Run defense is the only thing I don't like about it all the time.

[kaorder1999]

in our last game we jumped in it and they ran a play action pass on us and the two cover guys I brough in bit on it and they threw it deep on us. We werent in a 2 look behind it but were in man free. The safety playing center field couldnt get there in time..

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
in our last game we jumped in it and they ran a play action pass on us and the two cover guys I brough in bit on it and they threw it deep on us. We werent in a 2 look behind it but were in man free. The safety playing center field couldnt get there in time..

Yeah, I don't like asking a Safety to cover the entire field. I prefer to be 2 deep at all times, unless the situation calls for something different.

Did you guys lose some close ones this season?

[kaorder1999]

if im in man free you better be ready for a lOT of pressure up front to force a quick pass. The QB shouldnt have much time if im in Man Free

[88bobcats]

In 3A football, it seems difficult to prevent the nickel- and dime-package sub's. from biting on the play action. The college and pro players don't seem too phased by it.

In high school ball, however, the sub's. don't always have the rhythm of the game or the offense, and they can get fooled.....

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by 88bobcats
In 3A football, it seems difficult to prevent the nickel- and dime-package sub's. from biting on the play action. The college and pro players don't seem too phased by it.

In high school ball, however, the sub's. don't always have the rhythm of the game or the offense, and they can get fooled.....

You have to be careful of what you ask certain kids to do. Some kids just aren't athletic enough for certain things that get thrown at them, either from the coaches or the opposing offense.

[kaorder1999]

the only thing is right before I ran the kid out there I told him his job was to cover....told him he had ZERO run responsibilty because i had the inside backers widened and walked up the SS to get in the stack look...he still bit

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by TexanFan4Life
You have to be careful of what you ask certain kids to do. Some kids just aren't athletic enough for certain things that get thrown at them, either from the coaches or the opposing offense.

Agreed.....athletic sub's. can handle the demand of 2 man or cover 2; but watchin' from the sidelines isn't the same taste. When you get them into the game, I've seen clever OC's go play action to exploit the fact that they just got put in "cold".

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
the only thing is right before I ran the kid out there I told him his job was to cover....told him he had ZERO run responsibilty because i had the inside backers widened and walked up the SS to get in the stack look...he still bit

That's what I mean.

Some kids have the 'in one, out the other' syndrome. That's why you tell them to get it right or sit their a**es down. It's a tough thing, because on one hand, you want to win and have the best 11 out there at all times...but on the other hand, you don't want to kill a kid's confidence by sitting him down and singling him out all the time.

[88bobcats]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
the only thing is right before I ran the kid out there I told him his job was to cover....told him he had ZERO run responsibilty because i had the inside backers widened and walked up the SS to get in the stack look...he still bit

That's rough.....especially after givin' him the personal reminder. That's why I said it's tough to do with 3A high-schoolers. The collegiates and pros can do it. High school kids tend to be more run-focused and "bite" as a result.

[TexanFan4Life]

Originally posted by 88bobcats
That's rough.....especially after givin' him the personal reminder. That's why I said it's tough to do with 3A high-schoolers. The collegiates and pros can do it. High school kids tend to be more run-focused and "bite" as a result.

That's because most 3A teams are run heavy. When they see pass, DBs tend to want to panic and, as a result, they don't make the play they need to make.

[kaorder1999]

well...it was fun talking defense but I think im going to watch Forensic files and then go to bed...

[VWG]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
in the 3-4 i like the front 3 are constantly slanting or pinching forcing five o linemen to account for them. That leaves the insider backers scraping freely very similar to the old Bear Front (46) philosophy. Then there are two outside backers playing run first which does make it difficult to defend the play action at times but still have two safeties and two corners in a two shell look and can play man, quarters, can roll to 3, can play 2 man and 2 read behind it all. By alignment it looks like there are 5 in the box to play the run but in reality there are 7. Against the pass there can also be 8 in coverage...up front im not going to just sit in alignments and let you tee off on the dline....there will be a lot of moving and a lot of slanting. Forces the offense to guess a lot

Play action out of the wing-t, or straight roll out that has receivers flooding a zone usually gives problem with this look. If the outside backers commit then it leaves the flats wide open. Drag a TE and RB/WB out there and one of them should be open all night.

[Old Tiger]

I'd use the zone punt return.