Houston Chronicle calls Vince Young out...writer a Horn too [Archive]

g$$

11-17-2007, 02:57 AM

**This will be blasphemous to some on here. OK, we all know & agree VY is a winner. We all know his receiving corps is not great too. But can we all agree he has played poorly this year (he had more INTs than TDs last year too)? Passing #s back that up (4 TDs/10 Ints so far) so let's stay objective & call it what it is. Will he get better as he develops at the pro level? Athleticism only gets you so far at the highest level with complex schemes & against comparable athletes. I think he will, but he must improve big-time as a passer & in his decision-making to reach NFL star status. He's not even running much trying to stay in the pocket & he has had a leg injury too (one game this year he had less than 60 yds. total offense & the Titans still won with defense & LenDale White's 100+ yds.). That doesn't explain all of it though. Read what Longhorn grad Richard Justice has to say below.**

November 11, 2007
Houston Chronicle
SportsJustice

Vince Young isn't very good right now.

All you people screaming about how the Texans should have taken Vince Young should put a sock in it. That includes me. I don't know if the NFL has caught up to him or if he's in a sophomore slump, but at the moment, he's among the NFL's worst starting quarterbacks.

He's ranked next-to-last, but you can argue that passer rating stuff endlessly. He's simply making too many mistakes and not enough plays. He was merely mediocre in Sunday's 28-13 loss to Jacksonville, which tells you how badly he had been playing.

He threw his ninth and 10 interceptions, but also his fourth TD pass. That one broke a string of four games without one. Yes, the Tennessee Titans are 6-3, but that's a product of Jeff Fisher's defense and a terrific running game. The Titans have been winning in spite of Vince Young, not because of him.

When the Titans fell behind 21-3 on Sunday, he was unable to make enough plays to get his team back in the game.

• • •

Maroon87

11-17-2007, 03:56 AM

Vince is struggling? Wow...who knew?:p

JasperDog94

11-17-2007, 11:36 AM

It's the ol' Madden curse.:eek: :devil: :devil:

Old Tiger

11-17-2007, 11:41 AM

What does it matter if the writer is a Horn or not?

Gobbla2001

11-17-2007, 11:42 AM

what does it matter period? the dude isn't having a good year... no one on this message board has been talking about him... why are aggie and texans fans so wrapped up in vince's jock?

Old Tiger

11-17-2007, 11:43 AM

I haven't made a single post about him.

Gobbla2001

11-17-2007, 11:46 AM

I haven't seen anyone talk about him for a while...

seems to me that the "message board happiness" of some people is based on whether or not Vince is sucking or smoking... same goes for listeners and some broadcasters on 610AM out of Houston...

worry about you before worrying about Vince...

pirate4state

11-17-2007, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
what does it matter period? the dude isn't having a good year... no one on this message board has been talking about him... why are aggie and texans fans so wrapped up in vince's jock? so many comments :helpme: :D LOL

g$$

11-18-2007, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Go Blue
What does it matter if the writer is a Horn or not?

Proving that some Horns can be objective, unlike others! And yes, he is having a subpar year. Duh...

Point is, when VY is going great guns, all those that worship at his feet can't get enough of talking about him, the best ever, our savior, will change the qb position forever, etc. When he struggles, they crawl into a hole & don't say a peep. I find it humorous & hypocritical. You can't have it both ways.

Seems the ol' NFL has him figured out right now. 2nd lowest rater passer in the whole league. But he will get better, no doubt, just seeing if Go Blue & others cared to actually admit he is not all that right now. Just another 2nd year player trying to grasp the NFL game.

Old Tiger

11-18-2007, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by g$$
Proving that some Horns can be objective, unlike others! And yes, he is having a subpar year. Duh...

Point is, when VY is going great guns, all those that worship at his feet can't get enough of talking about him, the best ever, our savior, will change the qb position forever, etc. When he struggles, they crawl into a hole & don't say a peep. I find it humorous & hypocritical. You can't have it both ways.

Seems the ol' NFL has him figured out right now. 2nd lowest rater passer in the whole league. But he will get better, no doubt, just seeing if Go Blue & others cared to actually admit he is not all that right now. Just another 2nd year player trying to grasp the NFL game. Isn't that any player in the league? Why go out of your way to prove something?

coach

11-18-2007, 12:56 AM

i agree g but you have to remember who all is on this board and they are very bias towards their longhorns.....no one is talking about him bc he is not a very good qb...he will never win a super bowl( wade wynn theory) his numbers last year was even poor. i think it is funny how rex grossman puts up about the same numbers and wins more than vince and made it to the super bowl and no one called him a winner they called him terrible. vince has a long way to go i wish him well and i actually herd the other day from and espn anlysis that vy's job is in trouble and that if he dosent pick up his play kerry collins will take his job. i think vy will be another classic example of a great great college player but who busts in the nfl......

g$$

11-18-2007, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by Go Blue
Isn't that any player in the league? Why go out of your way to prove something?

Not what you predicted for VY. Can't change horses now Blue. There's a word for that, starts with an "H".

Lots of 2nd year guys are doing well. Maybe not qbs, but AJ Hawk/Donte Whitner/Ernie Sims/Joseph Addai/Laurence Maroney, etc. It proves once again just how tough playing qb in the NFL truly is, even for a special talent like VY.

Not trying to prove anything - just stating facts.

Txbroadcaster

11-18-2007, 01:49 AM

I think VY's problem is three fold

1. Teams have figured a way to defense him and him AND the titans have not adjusted

2. WR corp os bad and does not help, there is no speed to stretch the field, he basically has a bunch of guys with so-so hands and not that fast

3. Vince is trying WAY to hard to prove he is not just a scrambling QB..Randall Cunningham talked about how sometimes a scrambling QB allows perception to change how he plays, and I think Vince is less willing to run because he is trying to hard to prove he does not have to..it is basically the same as a speed RB trying to proe he can do more by trying to run over people instead of using his best assest...When Young runs, it opens the passing lanes, when he does not teams will sit back and coverage him to death

and also I think the Quad injury has slowed him down a bit as well

g$$

11-18-2007, 01:57 AM

I agree TXB, VY is trying so hard to prove that he can be a pocket passer that he has gotten away from what makes him special: dual threat qb. Granted, his quad has affected him & his WRs are mediocre at best. But he also deserves blame for poor decisions & inaccurate passing. Accuracy is the most important thing for a passer - even more than arm strength - & I go back to what I said before the Draft. VY has to prove he can put the ball accurately in tight spaces & windows, read coverages, etc. So far, he has not done that with regularity. Time will tell.

Old Tiger

11-18-2007, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by g$$
Not what you predicted for VY. Can't change horses now Blue. There's a word for that, starts with an "H".

Lots of 2nd year guys are doing well. Maybe not qbs, but AJ Hawk/Donte Whitner/Ernie Sims/Joseph Addai/Laurence Maroney, etc. It proves once again just how tough playing qb in the NFL truly is, even for a special talent like VY.

Not trying to prove anything - just stating facts. Sophomore slumps ;)

JasperDog94

11-18-2007, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by g$$
Not trying to prove anything - just stating facts.
Originally posted by g$$
Point is, when VY is going great guns, all those that worship at his feet can't get enough of talking about him, the best ever, our savior, will change the qb position forever, etc. When he struggles, they crawl into a hole & don't say a peep. I find it humorous & hypocritical. You can't have it both ways. Yep. Them there's some pretty special stats.:rolleyes:

Face it G, you look for any reason to bash a current or former horn. You live for this stuff and relish any opportunity to point it out. This has less to do with VY as a player and more to do with the fact that VY won a national title at UT.

There was no reason whatsoever to mention that the writer was a UT guy. That has nothing to do with the story. The guy's a professional journalist and he's just doing his job. Anyone with half a brain realizes that VY is having a tough year. But, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with UT. But once again you try and stir the pot.

Gobbla2001

11-18-2007, 11:14 AM

wasn't his previous post about the Longhorns having a history of receiving favorable calls by officials?

g$$

11-18-2007, 07:15 PM

It was meant for those, esp. on here, who fail to be objective concerning VY. The #s are out there for all to see. Yes, he is struggling. You are just defensive because you are one of those I am referring to on this topic.

As for the article on favorable calls, what is there to argue? Read it for yourself. It has happened numerous times in the past. Draw your own conclusions. The PI against Kansas a few years ago was a joke & anyone who knows the rules will say so.

I just like objective people, that's all. Take off your burnt orange glasses & see the light. You can't have it both ways.

Big Papa

11-18-2007, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by g$$
It was meant for those, esp. on here, who fail to be objective concerning VY. The #s are out there for all to see. Yes, he is struggling. You are just defensive because you are one of those I am referring to on this topic.

As for the article on favorable calls, what is there to argue? Read it for yourself. It has happened numerous times in the past. Draw your own conclusions. The PI against Kansas a few years ago was a joke & anyone who knows the rules will say so.

I just like objective people, that's all. Take off your burnt orange glasses & see the light. You can't have it both ways.

im almost 100% positive you can go back to almost any teams past games and find a call or too or a whole lot that went in their favor not just the longhorns...so thats not all too special..

g$$

11-18-2007, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Big Papa
im almost 100% positive you can go back to almost any teams past games and find a call or too or a whole lot that went in their favor not just the longhorns...so thats not all too special..

Yes, and...where there's smoke there's usually a fire too.

JR2004

11-18-2007, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Yep. Them there's some pretty special stats.:rolleyes:

Face it G, you look for any reason to bash a current or former horn. You live for this stuff and relish any opportunity to point it out. This has less to do with VY as a player and more to do with the fact that VY won a national title at UT.

There was no reason whatsoever to mention that the writer was a UT guy. That has nothing to do with the story. The guy's a professional journalist and he's just doing his job. Anyone with half a brain realizes that VY is having a tough year. But, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with UT. But once again you try and stir the pot.

I don't read that fella too often, but just about everything I have read reminds me of someone sporting a Napoleonic Complex or perhaps even an Inferiority Complex. The latter might possibly be the better fit, but who knows. It might be a volatile cocktail mix of both.

Then again my opinion and yours doesn't matter because we're "T-shirt Texas Fans" trying to make it in a world made for alumni. :)

g$$

11-18-2007, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by JR2004
I don't read that fella too often, but just about everything I have read reminds me of someone sporting a Napoleonic Complex or perhaps even an Inferiority Complex. The latter might possibly be the better fit, but who knows. It might be a volatile cocktail mix of both.

Then again my opinion and yours doesn't matter because we're "T-shirt Texas Fans" trying to make it in a world made for alumni. :)

You're funny. You sure reply a lot to not be reading. I find you to be a sad mixture of wannabe & never was. Maybe that's just me. Facts seem to bother you if it goes against your "beliefs". Maybe one day we will meet & decide for yourself...sure not Napoleon fella!

Old Tiger

11-19-2007, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by g$$
You're funny. You sure reply a lot to not be reading. I find you to be a sad mixture of wannabe & never was. Maybe that's just me. Facts seem to bother you if it goes against your "beliefs". Maybe one day we will meet & decide for yourself...sure not Napoleon fella! Why take a jab at someone? Defensive much?

themsu97

11-19-2007, 06:51 AM

some of y'all must really be confused... with VY struggling.... face it... he has not turned out so far so be a good qb... that defense carried them last year and they are doing the same so far...
VY obviously has the athleticism to do what Vick could do and what Romo is doing, but he is not... no reason why he could not be making plays like Romo is and Romo is not nearly as touted, he just has the ability to see the field and read, VY's biggest question when he came into the league...
hopefully VY will learn how to read a defense and become the qb we all hope he will be...

Phil C

11-19-2007, 09:37 AM

When Vince Young leads the Titans to a Super Bowl win in a few years these same folks will be singing praises on him. He is the best and is a winner!

Txbroadcaster

11-19-2007, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by themsu97
some of y'all must really be confused... with VY struggling.... face it... he has not turned out so far so be a good qb... that defense carried them last year and they are doing the same so far...
VY obviously has the athleticism to do what Vick could do and what Romo is doing, but he is not... no reason why he could not be making plays like Romo is and Romo is not nearly as touted, he just has the ability to see the field and read, VY's biggest question when he came into the league...
hopefully VY will learn how to read a defense and become the qb we all hope he will be...

I agree to an extent, but Romo also has a bevy of weapons at his disposal that Young does not have at this point

JasperDog94

11-19-2007, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by g$$
I find you to be a sad mixture of wannabe & never was. Why all the hate?

JasperDog94

11-19-2007, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by g$$
It was meant for those, esp. on here, who fail to be objective concerning VY. The #s are out there for all to see. Yes, he is struggling. You are just defensive because you are one of those I am referring to on this topic.
Find my post stating that VY is having a great year this year. You can't because I didn't. I know he's having a tough year.

And you can hold me to that too.

JasperDog94

11-19-2007, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I agree to an extent, but Romo also has a bevy of weapons at his disposal that Young does not have at this point And let's not forget that Romo got the benefit of sitting on the bench for a few years to learn how to play QB in the pros. VY started during his rookie campaign and doesn't have Romo's experience in the league. Give him time and then make a judgment.

crzyjournalist03

11-19-2007, 10:30 AM

I'll be very interested to see how he performs on the national stage tonight...he seems to bring out the best when the stage is the biggest, but he's clearly taken a step back this year.

CowboyBillWatts

11-19-2007, 10:46 AM

and when Vince proves them wrong this year, next year, whatever year I'll bring it back to the writer's attention. Vince is a winner and he will lead his team to a Super Bowl championship at some point in his career. Vince always proves the skeptics wrong.

themsu97

11-19-2007, 11:33 AM

when did he have critics other than when he came into the NFL... the criticism that went to UT while he was there was more directed at the fact that MACK BROWN could not win the big one and VY just received a little of that...
VY had talent in high school with him and he did not win there, he did win at college with a ton of talent around him... Tennessee has one of the best defenses in the league, two are being mentioned as possible defensive players of the year, he also has one of the best O lines in the league, they have an outstanding running game... he has a lot to produce a winning team with... proof goes to show that it does not take alot of talent at qb to win a Super Bowl (Trent Dilfer)...
VY is what most people thought he was as of now, average... no slight on VY, but he is just that up until now...
I have said it once and I will say it again, they all can run in the NFL, now they are making VY beat them with his arm which as of now, he has not learned how to do... all 3 qb's out of that draft have done nothing spectacular... best picks out of that draft, Fergeson, Jones-Drew, Colston...

JasperDog94

11-19-2007, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by themsu97
when did he have critics other than when he came into the NFL... the criticism that went to UT while he was there was more directed at the fact that MACK BROWN could not win the big one and VY just received a little of that...
VY had talent in high school with him and he did not win there, he did win at college with a ton of talent around him... Tennessee has one of the best defenses in the league, two are being mentioned as possible defensive players of the year, he also has one of the best O lines in the league, they have an outstanding running game... he has a lot to produce a winning team with... proof goes to show that it does not take alot of talent at qb to win a Super Bowl (Trent Dilfer)...
VY is what most people thought he was as of now, average... no slight on VY, but he is just that up until now...
I have said it once and I will say it again, they all can run in the NFL, now they are making VY beat them with his arm which as of now, he has not learned how to do... all 3 qb's out of that draft have done nothing spectacular... best picks out of that draft, Fergeson, Jones-Drew, Colston... You forget all those people that said to get in the NFL VY would have to convert to receiver. That logic was commonplace until his junior year at Texas. VY was criticized for being a "running QB" in college his freshman and sophomore years before leading the country in passing efficiency his junior year.

How quickly some of us forget.

BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END

11-19-2007, 01:55 PM

Man, it feels really good being right sometimes.

Txbroadcaster

11-19-2007, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Man, it feels really good being right sometimes.

I dont think u can say ur right or wrong yet

He has yet to play two full seasons, young Qbs qill take steps forward and back until they get the consitency needed to be succesful

Heck Jimmy Johnson STILL did not trust Aikman after the Cowboys play-off team in 91, he still had doubts that Aikman would be the QB that could lead Dallas.

CowboyBillWatts

11-19-2007, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by themsu97
when did he have critics other than when he came into the NFL... the criticism that went to UT while he was there was more directed at the fact that MACK BROWN could not win the big one and VY just received a little of that...
VY had talent in high school with him and he did not win there, he did win at college with a ton of talent around him... Tennessee has one of the best defenses in the league, two are being mentioned as possible defensive players of the year, he also has one of the best O lines in the league, they have an outstanding running game... he has a lot to produce a winning team with... proof goes to show that it does not take alot of talent at qb to win a Super Bowl (Trent Dilfer)...
VY is what most people thought he was as of now, average... no slight on VY, but he is just that up until now...
I have said it once and I will say it again, they all can run in the NFL, now they are making VY beat them with his arm which as of now, he has not learned how to do... all 3 qb's out of that draft have done nothing spectacular... best picks out of that draft, Fergeson, Jones-Drew, Colston...

He always had critics... he can't throw, poor throwing motion, he's just a runner, he can't play QB in the NFL, he'll have to be a WR, on and on and on. He's always had critics. Still does.

Big Papa

11-19-2007, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I dont think u can say ur right or wrong yet

He has yet to play two full seasons, young Qbs qill take steps forward and back until they get the consitency needed to be succesful

Heck Jimmy Johnson STILL did not trust Aikman after the Cowboys play-off team in 91, he still had doubts that Aikman would be the QB that could lead Dallas.

wait a second....he might've said, and im too lazy to look this up, that VY in the nfl would start after a few games of his rookie season and win a few games, coincidentally more than he lost, and then go on to his second year in the nfl and struggle more than he did in his first year, and that through week11, or whatever this is, that VY would not be doing as good as he did the year before, and that there would be "the first critical" article written about him:D

themsu97

11-19-2007, 04:01 PM

no, what most of us said was wait and see... everybody last year and two years ago said was it is too early to tell and what history has taught us would be he would be close to Vick, which is what he has done, actually two years in he is not close to Vick, unless he can lead the Titans to an AFC championship game...
we have never knocked VY, we are just more realistic and do not see things through Orange colored glasses... I have always said that I think VY will be fine, I just do not think he is all what every one makes him out to be... I feel he will be an above average qb... if I am wrong either way I will admit to that... right now he is a below average qb...

JR2004

11-19-2007, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
And you can hold me to that too.

Wait you mean we can hold you to your statement? You're just a t-shirt fan...How do we know we can hold you to your statement? If alumni can't be held to something they say, then how can you or I? :)

g$$

11-19-2007, 04:21 PM

g$$

11-19-2007, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
You forget all those people that said to get in the NFL VY would have to convert to receiver. That logic was commonplace until his junior year at Texas. VY was criticized for being a "running QB" in college his freshman and sophomore years before leading the country in passing efficiency his junior year.

How quickly some of us forget.

Passing efficiency is as worthless a stat as batting avg. in baseball (OB % & slugging mean so much more - OPS). VY may develop into a quality qb, but right now he is below avg. He dumped the ball off a lot in college & rarely threw deep. You can't live like that in the NFL. They will expose your weaknesses. Athletes just like him all over the field. Until he can make the medium & deep throws with accuracy & consistency, then he will struggle. The cerebral side of the game must improve too.

Watch what the Titans do closely with him. They run 1 & 2 read routes, not progression all over the field based on the defense. They are trying to simplify it for him. Lots of slants & hitch routes. I do think he must run & move around more to showcase his God-given skills.

As for the Horns that replied: all of you thought he would take the NFL by storm. He has not. That is the hypocrisy of it all. Just admit you jumped the gun, & let's see how he develops.

Old Tiger

11-19-2007, 04:31 PM

Stats are worthless too.

g$$

11-19-2007, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by JR2004
Wait you mean we can hold you to your statement? You're just a t-shirt fan...How do we know we can hold you to your statement? If alumni can't be held to something they say, then how can you or I? :)

Hold me to anything I say or write. No problem. And yes I am a grad of a school in question.

Kinda defensive about that t-shirt thing since you post about it constantly, huh?

g$$

11-19-2007, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Go Blue
Stats are worthless too.

VY's??

Answer this:

Titans are 6-3. Who should be given more credit for that: the defense or the offense led by VY?

I say DEFENSE in a landslide, followed by the running game controlling the clock. VY has been below avg.

(Here come the proverbial "He's a WINNER" posts...)

Old Tiger

11-19-2007, 04:37 PM

wins and losses are earned by a team. It is a team sport.

g$$

11-19-2007, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Go Blue
Why take a jab at someone? Defensive much?

Only responded to what he said concerning me, even though he has never met me. And NO to the latter, just presenting facts.

g$$

11-19-2007, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Go Blue
wins and losses are earned by a team. It is a team sport.

Thanks for that nugget. And you never answered the question...

Old Tiger

11-19-2007, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by g$$
Thanks for that nugget. And you never answered the question... I did and here is a memorable quote from Any Given Sunday

Luther 'Shark' Lavay: In football, you have the offense and the defense. You can't have one without the other. Respect will be paid.

g$$

11-19-2007, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Go Blue
I did and here is a memorable quote from Any Given Sunday

Luther 'Shark' Lavay: In football, you have the offense and the defense. You can't have one without the other. Respect will be paid.

Quoting that God-awful movie carries no weight.

I know it's a team game, but VY is not holding up his end right now. The DEFENSE is carrying them. And LenDale White has done well too. Special teams have been pretty good even w/o Pac-Man Jones.

Bottom line, VY has not played like the #3 overall pick.

Old Tiger

11-19-2007, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by g$$
Quoting that God-awful movie carries no weight.

I know it's a team game, but VY is not holding up his end right now. The DEFENSE is carrying them. And LenDale White has done well too. Special teams have been pretty good even w/o Pac-Man Jones.

Bottom line, VY has not played like the #3 overall pick. He only get singled out because he is the QB. True he isn't having a bad year but his team is 6-3.

And that "god-awful" movie has some damn good quotes in it. Whats so bad about that movie?

g$$

11-19-2007, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Go Blue
He only get singled out because he is the QB. True he isn't having a bad year but his team is 6-3.

And that "god-awful" movie has some damn good quotes in it. Whats so bad about that movie?

Good quotes, good action scenes, awful story line.

I would call VY's year subpar - not good & not bad - just below avg. overall. See what he does under the bright lights tonight. He is usually great in those conditions.

themsu97

11-19-2007, 05:33 PM

you see g money- you cannot argue with facts on this site with some people... they swing for so long that they will justify however... neither one of us has said that VY does not belong in the NFL or that he should not be qb, just presenting facts... the Ravens won a Super Bowl with a horrible offense, so there goes the ANy Given Sunday comment... but that also proves that the theory that you have to win a super bowl to be considered one of the greatest because there is no way that Trent Dilfer is better than VY or Dan Marino...
VY has been average at best for two years, as has Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler... you will never catch the league by storm...
the Titans defense is outstanding, Haynesworth and Bullock are by far the best at their positions and the O line is outstanding... the Titans passing game is more open with Collins... but he has a 2 cent brain and is too much of a gunslinger...

JasperDog94

11-19-2007, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by g$$
As for the Horns that replied: all of you thought he would take the NFL by storm. He has not. That is the hypocrisy of it all. Just admit you jumped the gun, & let's see how he develops. You know, people might respect your opinions more if you would simply state facts (which you do a good job of) without all the A&M rhetoric. Nobody on this thread is stating that VY is having a good year. He's struggling and everyone knows it. It's when you start generalizing an entire group of people (UT fans in this and most cases) that gets old and gets on people's nerves. Your posts would carry much more weight if you just stuck to the facts at hand and not put your personal bias against UT into every thread about a current or former horn.

Just my 2 cents.

Leopards,class of 75

11-19-2007, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by CowboyBillWatts
and when Vince proves them wrong this year, next year, whatever year I'll bring it back to the writer's attention. Vince is a winner and he will lead his team to a Super Bowl championship at some point in his career. Vince always proves the skeptics wrong. A very good point! And did everyone forget just how many come from behind wins Vince lead his team last season. Vince will improve, just watch and see!!!!

g$$

11-19-2007, 07:13 PM

g$$

11-19-2007, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
You know, people might respect your opinions more if you would simply state facts (which you do a good job of) without all the A&M rhetoric. Nobody on this thread is stating that VY is having a good year. He's struggling and everyone knows it. It's when you start generalizing an entire group of people (UT fans in this and most cases) that gets old and gets on people's nerves. Your posts would carry much more weight if you just stuck to the facts at hand and not put your personal bias against UT into every thread about a current or former horn.

Just my 2 cents.

This isn't about Ags, Horns, or any other group. It's about people being objective & seeing it for what it is as football fans.

Many of you had VY in the Pro Football HOF before he ever took a snap on Sundays. That is the hypocrisy of it all. LONG way to go to even be above average as an NFL qb. He can't live off his UT days anymore. New level, better players, more complex schemes, etc. We'll see how he develops.

Old Tiger

11-19-2007, 08:46 PM

The play that just happened is the reason Vince is not doing as good as he could. Had a deep pass dropped.

Gobbla2001

11-19-2007, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Go Blue
The play that just happened is the reason Vince is not doing as good as he could. Had a deep pass dropped.

it was a very good pass... threw another great one just after that... then threw a not so great one...

he's not God... but he's a damn good player... needs a little help and a little more aging for the NFL game...

Big Papa

11-19-2007, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by themsu97
you see g money- you cannot argue with facts on this site with some people... they swing for so long that they will justify however... neither one of us has said that VY does not belong in the NFL or that he should not be qb, just presenting facts... the Ravens won a Super Bowl with a horrible offense, so there goes the ANy Given Sunday comment... but that also proves that the theory that you have to win a super bowl to be considered one of the greatest because there is no way that Trent Dilfer is better than VY or Dan Marino...
VY has been average at best for two years, as has Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler... you will never catch the league by storm...
the Titans defense is outstanding, Haynesworth and Bullock are by far the best at their positions and the O line is outstanding... the Titans passing game is more open with Collins... but he has a 2 cent brain and is too much of a gunslinger...

its funny how you dont present the facts except for when they help you prove a point...or bring them up for that matter...and i suppose that the ravens won that super bowl 2-0 off of a safety...no i think the offense scored over half the points in that game...not saying the defense wasnt outstanding..but the offense did its job
im guessing you meant disproves..or whatever the word is..
the tennessee defense is very good...and is responsible for putting the titans in winning situations this year....and tonite VY played pretty well for the most part...especially during the first three quarters...the receivers had some big drops on good throws...and then there werent some good throws as well...but i like yours and g$$'s approach just wait and see..give the guy some time....
and as far as catching the league by storm...two words...Tony Romo

eagles_victory

11-20-2007, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by g$$
This isn't about Ags, Horns, or any other group. It's about people being objective & seeing it for what it is as football fans.

Many of you had VY in the Pro Football HOF before he ever took a snap on Sundays. That is the hypocrisy of it all. LONG way to go to even be above average as an NFL qb. He can't live off his UT days anymore. New level, better players, more complex schemes, etc. We'll see how he develops. I never remember anyone saying Vince Young was going to be in Pro Football HOF before he took a snap in the NFL. I love UT and Vince Young but I said he will have trouble adjusting to the NFL because it is harder to run because the defenses are so fast. Also he was never a great pocket passer.

You ask for everyone to be objective but yet you are so far from objective yourself that it is almost a slap in the face to everyone else on this board when you tell them to be objective. Now I agree with some of the stuff you say but i dont agree with how you present it very often. You act like only UT fans are homers and every school has homers.

Only time I have a problem with fans of a team is when there a fan of a team and not really a fan of the sport. Meaning that they will go crazy and support their team to the point where they are blinded from reality and while we have some homers on this board I dont think very many people know what there talking about. For example, GO Blue was on varsity as a soph and the guy watches a lot of football he knows what he is talking about for the most part although aggies (g$$ and bbde) always try to discredit everything he says. I dont always agree with him and admit he is a UT homer but you act like he knows nothing.

IMO the A&M fans I know are the ones who gloat the longest after a big win and overrate there players so much. For example that safety Jackson Appel sp? Aggies talked about him like he was the second coming of Christ I even heard some mention him for the heisman. At least the athletes UT fans overrate actually helped them win something. But Im not judging all aggies I know g$$ probably thought nothing like that just trying to prove my point that all fans do it.

g$$

11-20-2007, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by eagles_victory
I never remember anyone saying Vince Young was going to be in Pro Football HOF before he took a snap in the NFL. I love UT and Vince Young but I said he will have trouble adjusting to the NFL because it is harder to run because the defenses are so fast. Also he was never a great pocket passer.

You ask for everyone to be objective but yet you are so far from objective yourself that it is almost a slap in the face to everyone else on this board when you tell them to be objective. Now I agree with some of the stuff you say but i dont agree with how you present it very often. You act like only UT fans are homers and every school has homers.

Only time I have a problem with fans of a team is when there a fan of a team and not really a fan of the sport. Meaning that they will go crazy and support their team to the point where they are blinded from reality and while we have some homers on this board I dont think very many people know what there talking about. For example, GO Blue was on varsity as a soph and the guy watches a lot of football he knows what he is talking about for the most part although aggies (g$$ and bbde) always try to discredit everything he says. I dont always agree with him and admit he is a UT homer but you act like he knows nothing.

IMO the A&M fans I know are the ones who gloat the longest after a big win and overrate there players so much. For example that safety Jackson Appel sp? Aggies talked about him like he was the second coming of Christ I even heard some mention him for the heisman. At least the athletes UT fans overrate actually helped them win something. But Im not judging all aggies I know g$$ probably thought nothing like that just trying to prove my point that all fans do it.

Homers exist everywhere. I am anything but a homer - if my school stinks I will say so & have many times. And yes, lots of Horns are very pro-Vince whatever he does, good or bad. Hey, he won a NC for them! That buys some time I guess.

I am willing to bet most of us played varsity ball. I played 3 varsity sports & was lucky enough to play juco baseball. That doesn't make me any better than the next guy on here. I am confident in what I know, but others know stuff too.

As for Appel, he was a good college player. No more or no less. Good solid kid. You never heard stuff like that from me. Ever! I am not a guy who brags on players like that. Pretty tough to impress actually. Maybe I am cynical to a degree. Some on here & elsewhere do go overboard in this area, but I challenge anyone to find my posts like that. VY is an example - they thought he would take the NFL by the throat & run with it. Not so at all, but developing in his 2nd year.

A&M fans are not any better or worse than others. Read the different school sites. Idiots everywhere. I hope you don't lump me in that group you mentioned, because I always try to stay objective & fact-based. If it's my opinion, I say so.

g$$

11-20-2007, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by Go Blue
The play that just happened is the reason Vince is not doing as good as he could. Had a deep pass dropped.

Vince played pretty well overall. Had some passes dropped, made some good throws, ran well finally, & also made some poor throws & decisions. He is developing as an NFL qb. Ran for 1 TD & threw for 1 TD, & had 2 INTs. Forced the one pick & bad decision in desperation on the other. Titans D let them down in this one.

I predicted Cutler would be a very good one & some laughed at me. I love his arm & moxie. He will only get better under Shanahan. Love his future. Denver is very young, look out in years to come.

eagles_victory

11-20-2007, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by g$$
Vince played pretty well overall. Had some passes dropped, made some good throws, ran well finally, & also made some poor throws & decisions. He is developing as an NFL qb. Ran for 1 TD & threw for 1 TD, & had 2 INTs. Forced the one pick & bad decision in desperation on the other. Titans D let them down in this one.

I predicted Cutler would be a very good one & some laughed at me. I love his arm & moxie. He will only get better under Shanahan. Love his future. Denver is very young, look out in years to come. I thought Vince looked to run and played as more of a dual threat tonight. He had some impressive scrambles for first downs in the game. The defense began to keep people up to try to prevent him from running which opened up some passing lanes.

He threw the ball well missed a few throws. The one where Scaife made the diving catch (was actually a catch) but nontheless called incomplete and Vince made a bad throw. The ball he threw behind the reciever where Dre Bly picked it to seal the game.

If he can keep this kind of play up I think he will make progress but he does need some guys to throw the ball too. However, I like what Justin Gage is developing into as a target on the outside. He could be a good number 2 or 3 guy if they can bring in some bigger names

JasperDog94

11-20-2007, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by g$$
This isn't about Ags, Horns, or any other group. It's about people being objective & seeing it for what it is as football fans.

Originally posted by g$$
As for the Horns that replied: all of you thought he would take the NFL by storm. He has not. That is the hypocrisy of it all.

Originally posted by g$$
Read what Longhorn grad Richard Justice has to say below.

If it's not about Ags and Horns, then why the above statements.

Good grief, look at the title of the thread you started.:doh: :doh: :doh:

crzyjournalist03

11-20-2007, 11:42 AM

Vince Young was good last night...I don't think anybody who watched that game can hang the loss on his shoulders...if he had a mediocre receiving corps in the NFL, his numbers would have been amazing last night.

themsu97

11-20-2007, 12:11 PM

what? I remember distinctly several people on this board saying that VY makes everyone around him sooooooo much better that he could do it because he is this and that...

really, he played well at times, made good throws and made some bad ones that he wr caught for him... it all evens out in the wash...
VY will be okay, I think what G money is hitting on is he is not all that like most want to make him out to be...
Romo came out of nowhere and is waaaay better than VY as a qb... he makes alot of stuff happen... and before some of you start spouting off about receiving corps, take away TO and who does Romo have... Crayton and Hurd are only playing well because of ROmo... and Whitten is great but so is Scaife, Titans may not use him properly though

crzyjournalist03

11-20-2007, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by themsu97
what? I remember distinctly several people on this board saying that VY makes everyone around him sooooooo much better that he could do it because he is this and that...

really, he played well at times, made good throws and made some bad ones that he wr caught for him... it all evens out in the wash...
VY will be okay, I think what G money is hitting on is he is not all that like most want to make him out to be...
Romo came out of nowhere and is waaaay better than VY as a qb... he makes alot of stuff happen... and before some of you start spouting off about receiving corps, take away TO and who does Romo have... Crayton and Hurd are only playing well because of ROmo... and Whitten is great but so is Scaife, Titans may not use him properly though

Romo is better than about 29 other QBs in the NFL right now...that shouldn't even be a comparison.

And I bet you anything that the Titans would take Patrick Crayton over ANY of their current wideouts. And Scaife couldn't hold Witten's son's jock. Witten is the best all-around TE in the NFL. (Notice I didn't say best receiving TE...I know that Gates is better...but nobody blocks like him with his receiving ability.) And let's not forget the Cowboys running backs...both are better than Lendale White and Chris Brown...

But with that said, VY does make players around him better to an extent, but he's still got a ways to go to become an elite QB.

JasperDog94

11-20-2007, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by themsu97
really, he played well at times, made good throws and made some bad ones that he wr caught for him... it all evens out in the wash...
VY will be okay, I think what G money is hitting on is he is not all that like most want to make him out to be...
Romo came out of nowhere and is waaaay better than VY as a qb... he makes alot of stuff happen... and before some of you start spouting off about receiving corps, take away TO and who does Romo have... Crayton and Hurd are only playing well because of ROmo... and Whitten is great but so is Scaife, Titans may not use him properly though This is almost laughable. I can't tell if you really believe that stuff you wrote or if you just hate VY that much and try to discredit a pretty good performance by him last night.

JasperDog94

11-20-2007, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by themsu97
what? I remember distinctly several people on this board saying that VY makes everyone around him sooooooo much better that he could do it because he is this and that...
I'll admit that I'm one of the ones that says Vince makes everyone else around him better. He does this by his leadership and the way he handles himself. Unfortunately he can't help the receivers catch the ball. There were three passes last night that hit the receivers right in the hands that would have been huge gains. Those plays changed the momentum of the game. It happens. But did you notice his post game comments? He told his guys that he was coming right back to them because he believes in them. That, my friend, is leadership that inspires and that is why his teammates love him.

sinton66

11-20-2007, 01:07 PM

Even Heisman winning QB Roger Staubach sucked his first couple of years in the NFL. Takes game experience at that level.

themsu97

11-20-2007, 01:10 PM

I do not hate VY... actually think alot of the guy... some of ya'll have no clue...Armahd Hall is actually a good friend of mine and VY got him the tryout...

I have always been saying that the expectations that some of you have for him is very unrealistic... he cannot be the end all be all because he has to have a team around him, not college anymore where everybody is good...

eagles_victory

11-20-2007, 01:13 PM

you guys got to keep in mind Vince was one of the greastest college players ever so Longhorn fans are going to be forever greatful to him for that.

themsu97

11-20-2007, 01:20 PM

was he? or was he just one of the greatest plyers to ever play at Texas... he won one national title... Danny Weurffel did that, as did josh Heipple?
no offense, but I think since he was from Texas we dote on him a little more... I would take Earl over him any day... I would take Anthony Munoz too...

no doubt that he was a great player, but one of the best of all time, I don't think so... definitely one of the best of his era

but also let me clarify, I do not get into ESPN trying to sell everything that goes on now a days as the best ever... I am sick of it... no way that the only two time winner of the Heisman,back when it actually meant something, is only #21... un stinking real...

themsu97

11-20-2007, 01:21 PM

off to lunch duty, I will take my abuse when I get back

g$$

11-20-2007, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by themsu97
was he? or was he just one of the greatest plyers to ever play at Texas... he won one national title... Danny Weurffel did that, as did josh Heipple?
no offense, but I think since he was from Texas we dote on him a little more... I would take Earl over him any day... I would take Anthony Munoz too...

no doubt that he was a great player, but one of the best of all time, I don't think so... definitely one of the best of his era

but also let me clarify, I do not get into ESPN trying to sell everything that goes on now a days as the best ever... I am sick of it... no way that the only two time winner of the Heisman,back when it actually meant something, is only #21... un stinking real...

Great point on Archie Griffin MSU97. That list is a joke.

I would take Earl Campbell too. He elevated the Houston Oilers practically by himself to 2 straight AFC Championship games, & can't even walk today because of it. Tommy Nobis comes to mind too. But VY won a NC, so that's the way it goes.

VY is getting better, no doubt, when he utilizes his dual threat abilities. Accuracy/consistency is still a question & will continue to be. The Titans have won with defense all year - last night the D let them down. He made some good throws & some awful ones too, & had some drops. He also got bailed out on some others so it all has a way of evening out. Decision-making will have to improve - every athlete on that field is comparable to him unlike college. Let's see how he develops over time.

JasperDog: my thread was intended to generate interest, thus the wording. It worked too huh? Not about Horns or Aggies, but about VY as a qb in the NFL. That is what you are missing. He has a LONG ways to go to live up to what many Horns predicted.

Txbroadcaster

11-20-2007, 04:59 PM

eagles_victory

11-20-2007, 05:01 PM

Vince put up two of the greatest bowl game performances of all time in those two Rose Bowls. He was a great player who could elevate his team to another level. Also keep in mind Vince left after his jr year where some of the greats from the past stayed all 4 years.

Vince could of possibly won 2 national titles and 1 heisman had he stayed which would make him look better overall. But maybe if he comes back it doesnt happen ie Leinart and Jason White but nontheless i dont think you can argue with Vince's greatness in college.

Earl Campbell was before my time but no doubt hes a great player but what he did with Houston doesnt hold much merit in the argument about the greatest player of all time lol. If were talking strictly college VY has to be mentioned as one of the best to ever play and probably top 2 or 3 all time at UT imho

g$$

11-20-2007, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Vince put up two of the greatest bowl game performances of all time in those two Rose Bowls. He was a great player who could elevate his team to another level. Also keep in mind Vince left after his jr year where some of the greats from the past stayed all 4 years.

Vince could of possibly won 2 national titles and 1 heisman had he stayed which would make him look better overall. But maybe if he comes back it doesnt happen ie Leinart and Jason White but nontheless i dont think you can argue with Vince's greatness in college.

Earl Campbell was before my time but no doubt hes a great player but what he did with Houston doesnt hold much merit in the argument about the greatest player of all time lol. If were talking strictly college VY has to be mentioned as one of the best to ever play and probably top 2 or 3 all time at UT imho

No doubt, it is a college poll. But Earl was pure greatness too. He did win the Heisman too after overcoming injuries his 1st 3 years. Absolute beast.

VY deserves his status as an all-time great. No argument here.

(VY was actually there 4 years including his redshirt year)

JasperDog94

11-20-2007, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by g$$
JasperDog: my thread was intended to generate interest, thus the wording. It worked too huh? Not about Horns or Aggies, but about VY as a qb in the NFL. That is what you are missing. He has a LONG ways to go to live up to what many Horns predicted. Flip flop all you want to. You started a thread intending to get people stirred up (which you did by bringing in the ol' Horn angle) then tried to say that it has nothing to do with Horns or Ags. Which is it?

rockdale80

11-20-2007, 07:39 PM

JasperDog94

11-20-2007, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Don't hold him to that. :cool: ;)

g$$

11-21-2007, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Flip flop all you want to. You started a thread intending to get people stirred up (which you did by bringing in the ol' Horn angle) then tried to say that it has nothing to do with Horns or Ags. Which is it?

I already told you - reading comprehension tough for you?

It was a football thread, not university angle. We have covered this at length. Nice to see the Horn writer can be objective. And keep holding onto whatever you wish if that gets your rocks off. I could care less t-shirt fan.

rockdale80

11-21-2007, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by g$$
I already told you - reading comprehension tough for you?

It was a football thread, not university angle. We have covered this at length. Nice to see the Horn writer can be objective. And keep holding onto whatever you wish if that gets your rocks off. I could care less t-shirt fan.

Atleast if he says that we can hold him to something, he means it. If there was no university angle then why do you follow up with the comment about the writer being a horn and being objective. This whole tirade is about as old as Go Blue bashing the ags. All the labels you place on Go Blue can be placed on you as well since you say/do the EXACT same things.

Oops. Sorry I forgot to kneel before you all mighty Aggie Alum.:rolleyes:

scott Wilson

11-21-2007, 10:49 AM

That list of greatest college players is a list that boils down to "what have you done for me lately"? Listing some of these guys above a two time heisman trophy winner is silly. If it truly is about your "COLLEGE" career, then the ONLY two time heisman trophy winner should be at the top. Not down the line so far you can`t see his name. I see Vince being a McNabb, when his legs give out, so will his game because he suffers from the same problem as D-Nabb, INACCURACY. That`s the same intangible that the great QB`s all have. They can throw a ball through a window of a house and have it come out of another window on the opposite side of the house. Yes, Vince did have some better throws this last week, but he still had some throws that were off. The great ones don`t throw balls that are off. He was so effective as a college player because his sheer athleticism was too much for schools that didn`t match up with his abilities. They respected his running so much that they forgot about the pass, and at times he made them pay. The NFL , you can`t get away with that, it`s always a "pass first", if that`s not there, side step the defender and pass second. The great ones today aren`t looking to run, their eyes are always downfield looking to pass. If VY does`nt learn this, he`s gonna end up a broken down QB like the eagles have.

rockdale80

11-21-2007, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by scott Wilson
That list of greatest college players is a list that boils down to "what have you done for me lately"? Listing some of these guys above a two time heisman trophy winner is silly. If it truly is about your "COLLEGE" career, then the ONLY two time heisman trophy winner should be at the top. Not down the line so far you can`t see his name. I see Vince being a McNabb, when his legs give out, so will his game because he suffers from the same problem as D-Nabb, INACCURACY. That`s the same intangible that the great QB`s all have. They can throw a ball through a window of a house and have it come out of another window on the opposite side of the house. Yes, Vince did have some better throws this last week, but he still had some throws that were off. The great ones don`t throw balls that are off. He was so effective as a college player because his sheer athleticism was too much for schools that didn`t match up with his abilities. They respected his running so much that they forgot about the pass, and at times he made them pay. The NFL , you can`t get away with that, it`s always a "pass first", if that`s not there, side step the defender and pass second. The great ones today aren`t looking to run, their eyes are always downfield looking to pass. If VY does`nt learn this, he`s gonna end up a broken down QB like the eagles have. .

Way to repeat what 6 other people have said. GOOD JOB BUDDY:thumbsup:

Don't forget, if you didnt graduate from ATM then you are just an ignorant T-shirt fan as well. Only people that graduate from a university can have school spirit and wisdom.

JasperDog94

11-21-2007, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by g$$
I already told you - reading comprehension tough for you?

It was a football thread, not university angle. We have covered this at length. Nice to see the Horn writer can be objective. And keep holding onto whatever you wish if that gets your rocks off. I could care less t-shirt fan. You know, I almost feel sorry for you that you feel this way. It must be a sad way to live your life. Putting down other people because they chose to take care of their family instead of going to a particular university. Not only do I know what it takes to be a fan, I also know what it takes to be a man and take care of my family. :dispntd: :dispntd:

rockdale80

11-21-2007, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by JasperDog94
You know, I almost feel sorry for you that you feel this way. It must be a sad way to live your life. Putting down other people because they chose to take care of their family instead of going to a particular university. Not only do I know what it takes to be a fan, I also know what it takes to be a man and take care of my family. :dispntd: :dispntd:

THATS ABSURD!!!!

Why would anyone do that? :rolleyes: ;)

themsu97

11-21-2007, 06:13 PM

I obviously am not an Aggie...

I guess what I am saying is I do hate all the "now" players that seem to be the best everytime...it just gets old... I really should not fault the players now a days for the media trying to make this the "Golden Age" of sports you know...

and I am a tshirt fan... I just keep working the Mack Brown football camps every summer and continue to wear the tshirts and polos they give me...

rockdale80

11-21-2007, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by themsu97
I obviously am not an Aggie...

I guess what I am saying is I do hate all the "now" players that seem to be the best everytime...it just gets old... I really should not fault the players now a days for the media trying to make this the "Golden Age" of sports you know...

and I am a tshirt fan... I just keep working the Mack Brown football camps every summer and continue to wear the tshirts and polos they give me...

Understood 100% and agreed for the most part. I am not the biggest VY fan out there, but I think what he did in college was stellar. I give homage to those that earned their merit 50 years ago, but I wonder how they would hold up today. The way the athletic talent and game has evolved I doubt many of the guys that were stars of their day would fair very well in today's game. I think that is why some people jump on the "now" bandwagon.

g$$

11-22-2007, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Atleast if he says that we can hold him to something, he means it. If there was no university angle then why do you follow up with the comment about the writer being a horn and being objective. This whole tirade is about as old as Go Blue bashing the ags. All the labels you place on Go Blue can be placed on you as well since you say/do the EXACT same things.

Oops. Sorry I forgot to kneel before you all mighty Aggie Alum.:rolleyes:

I did that to make a point - & did just that. It's a qb thing, not school thing. We'll see how he develops.

No need to kneel hoss, just a normal guy here. I'm fine with you as we discussed all of that before...remember embattled, etc.? Well, Fran is more than embattled now...he's toast after Friday.

g$$

11-22-2007, 05:36 AM

Originally posted by rockdale80
Understood 100% and agreed for the most part. I am not the biggest VY fan out there, but I think what he did in college was stellar. I give homage to those that earned their merit 50 years ago, but I wonder how they would hold up today. The way the athletic talent and game has evolved I doubt many of the guys that were stars of their day would fair very well in today's game. I think that is why some people jump on the "now" bandwagon.

Cream always rises to the top - greatest players from any era would still be great today. They would have access to the training, nutrition, weights, medical advances, more complex schemes, etc. Don't discount older players just because of age - that shows a lack of appreciation for history & what they accomplished. That being said, today's players are bigger/stronger/faster of course. Nor would there be 190 lb. linemen playing today either. The best would adapt. Today's players did not invent the game. This goes for all sports too. In the old days, it was not a 12 month job. They worked in the offseasons supporting their families. Now, it is totally different.

Name any great "old" guy - Doak Walker, Sammy Baugh, Jim Brown, Chuck Bednarik, etc. - they would still be great. They would adapt & apply their natural God-given abilities.

And, you're partially right, I have zero respect for t-shirt bandwagoner fans. Lifelong fans are different as I have explained ad nauseum, & I have spoken to JasperDog thru PM previously. I don't have to justify anything to you. He says he made a choice & I respect that. Take a joke & quit being so defensive.