Rules Question

[eagles_victory]

A team has the ball on the 20 yard line. They throw a pass into the endzone and pass interference is called. The refs spotted the ball on the 5. Is that the wrong call with half the distance to the goal being the rule b/c I thought it should of been on the 10. Or is there an exception bc it was a PI call?

[kaorder1999]

if the penalty had occuredon the 30 yard line then it owuld be a 15 yard penalty. Since the original line of scrimmage was the 20 then it woul dbe half hte distance and the ball should have been spotted on the 10 with an automatic first down.

[crzyjournalist03]

here's another rules question that I've wondered about before:

In the NFL, in the final two minutes of a game, a false start penalty by the offense results in a 10 second runoff of the clock. So let's say you're up by two deep inside your own territory on fourth down with about 9 seconds to go in the game with the clock running when you'll have to punt the ball, and your opponent has no timeouts left.

Just before the snap, wouldn't it be beneficial for the team to intentionally false start, resulting in a ten second runoff and ending the game, or is there a special rule to prevent this?

[whtfbplaya]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
A team has the ball on the 20 yard line. They throw a pass into the endzone and pass interference is called. The refs spotted the ball on the 5. Is that the wrong call with half the distance to the goal being the rule b/c I thought it should of been on the 10. Or is there an exception bc it was a PI call?

They were correct:)

[whtfbplaya]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
if the penalty had occuredon the 30 yard line then it owuld be a 15 yard penalty. Since the original line of scrimmage was the 20 then it woul dbe half hte distance and the ball should have been spotted on the 10 with an automatic first down.

You might want to double check that:D

[mistanice]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
here's another rules question that I've wondered about before:

In the NFL, in the final two minutes of a game, a false start penalty by the offense results in a 10 second runoff of the clock. So let's say you're up by two deep inside your own territory on fourth down with about 9 seconds to go in the game with the clock running when you'll have to punt the ball, and your opponent has no timeouts left.

Just before the snap, wouldn't it be beneficial for the team to intentionally false start, resulting in a ten second runoff and ending the game, or is there a special rule to prevent this?

I thought you couldn't end a game with a penalty?

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by mistanice
I thought you couldn't end a game with a penalty?

you can't end a game with a DEFENSIVE penalty...you can on offense. I've seen teams in hurry-up mode lose a game due to the very circumstance I mentioned, only they were on offense trying to score, not trying to keep the ball away from the other team.

[mistanice]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
you can't end a game with a DEFENSIVE penalty...you can on offense. I've seen teams in hurry-up mode lose a game due to the very circumstance I mentioned, only they were on offense trying to score, not trying to keep the ball away from the other team.

ooo ya, gotcha

[3afan]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
here's another rules question that I've wondered about before:

In the NFL, in the final two minutes of a game, a false start penalty by the offense results in a 10 second runoff of the clock. So let's say you're up by two deep inside your own territory on fourth down with about 9 seconds to go in the game with the clock running when you'll have to punt the ball, and your opponent has no timeouts left.

Just before the snap, wouldn't it be beneficial for the team to intentionally false start, resulting in a ten second runoff and ending the game, or is there a special rule to prevent this?

what if the D declined the penalty? still a 10 sec runoff?

but I guess if its a dead ball false start you cant decline it - or can you?

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by whtfbplaya
You might want to double check that:D

the ball was on the 20 yard line to begin with right? It would be half the distance to the goal automatic first down.

[kaorder1999]

ill check on it and research it but im pretty sure that is the deal. Give me a couple mins

[buff4life]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
the ball was on the 20 yard line to begin with right? It would be half the distance to the goal automatic first down.

i don't think so...there are certain penalties in high school that aren't half the distance outside the 20...the referees had it right...

[CenTexSports]

Defensive Pass Int is an exception to the 1/2 the distance penalty in NCAA rules. They ger the full 15 in the situation mentioned.

Defensive Pass Int is an exception to the 1/2 the distance penalty in NCAA rules. They ger the full 15 in the situation mentioned.

Half-Distance Enforcement Procedures
ARTICLE 3. No distance penalty, including tries from on or inside the
three-yard line, shall exceed half the distance from the enforcement spot
to the offending team’s goal line [Exceptions: (1) Scrimmage downs, other
than tries, under Rule 7-3-8, Penalty for Team B interference; and (2) on
tries, defensive pass interference when the ball is snapped from outside the
three-yard line].

[kaorder1999]

I have called two officials and both have told me since the original line of scrimmage was the 20 it would be half the distance to the goal, automatic first down.

[CenTexSports]

Read exception above and to reinforce:


When the ball is snapped between the Team B 17-yard line
and the Team B two-yard line and the spot of the foul is
beyond the two-yard line, the penalty from the previous
spot shall place the ball at the two-yard line, first down
(A.R. 7-3-8-XVII).
No penalty enforced from outside the two-yard line may
place the ball inside the two-yard line (Exception: Rule
10-2-2-g-2).

The only restriction to the fifteen yards is that the ball cannot be placed inside the two yard line from outside the two. So if the Previous Spot (ps) was the 16 yard line, the ball would be placed on the two not on the one. So the only time the penalty would be exactly 1/2 the distance is when the ball is on the 4 yard line at the snap for the PS.

[kaorder1999]

nm

[buff4life]

i just called a coach thats been around for ages and he said if its outside the 20 you get full 15 yds..

[kaorder1999]

That is what im hearing from everyone now...OUTSIDE the 20 then you get the full yardage. 20 and in half the distance. hell..this is confusing!

[CenTexSports]

No it is not, I just posted the rule from the 2007 NCAA Rule Book.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2007/2007_football_rules.pdf

[kaorder1999]

dude, im looking at the same rule book as you and none of it makes sense. Its in another language.

[kaorder1999]

according to my research, 5 refs ive now called, they are going to mark off half the distance and give an automatic first down. Is that correct? Who knows, but if you have their crews that is what they are going to call.

[CenTexSports]

From the NCAA rule book.

LOSS OF HALF DISTANCE TO GOAL LINE
If distance penalty exceeds half the distance (except on
defensive pass interference) .................................................. .......— 10 2 3


This is from page FR-153 in the Summary of Penalties.


I am wondering about the officials that you are asking. Are they White Hats or back judges? I agree that this is not always enforced correctly but how can you argue with the rule (in multiple locations) that have been printed in this thread?

[kaorder1999]

All White Hats and 3 head coaches

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by 3afan
what if the D declined the penalty? still a 10 sec runoff?

but I guess if its a dead ball false start you cant decline it - or can you?

ah, that would make sense...I bet that's how it's protected.

[BwdLion_80]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
according to my research, 5 refs ive now called, they are going to mark off half the distance and give an automatic first down. Is that correct? Who knows, but if you have their crews that is what they are going to call.

All of them were incorrect! PI is the only penalty that is not half the distance. If the interference occured within 15 yards of the LOS then it is a spot foul. If it is further than 15 yards, then it is 15 from the LOS. If you are inside the 17 yard line and the PI is in the end zone, the ball goes on the 2. If the PI is between the 17 and the 2 it is a spot foul. I had 4 arguements/discussions with coaches this season about this rule, they all thought it was 1/2 the distance too, and they told me I needed to look up the rule because I was wrong. I had already double checked the rule and I knew that they were the ones that were incorrect. It is kind of confusing, but all you have to remember is that PI is the only one that is not 1/2 the distance.

[VAMike]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
according to my research, 5 refs ive now called, they are going to mark off half the distance and give an automatic first down. Is that correct? Who knows, but if you have their crews that is what they are going to call.
I am assuming all 5 are from same area (chapter)? If so, please tell me the area as there needs to be some re-education there

[zebrablue2]

Originally posted by BwdLion_80
All of them were incorrect! PI is the only penalty that is not half the distance. If the interference occured within 15 yards of the LOS then it is a spot foul. If it is further than 15 yards, then it is 15 from the LOS. If you are inside the 17 yard line and the PI is in the end zone, the ball goes on the 2. If the PI is between the 17 and the 2 it is a spot foul. I had 4 arguements/discussions with coaches this season about this rule, they all thought it was 1/2 the distance too, and they told me I needed to look up the rule because I was wrong. I had already double checked the rule and I knew that they were the ones that were incorrect. It is kind of confusing, but all you have to remember is that PI is the only one that is not 1/2 the distance.


that would be correct. if the ball was on the 20, the 5 is the only correct spot by rule. if they put it on the 10, half the distance, they do not know the rule, that is WRONG.

[zebrablue2]

Originally posted by VAMike
I am assuming all 5 are from same area (chapter)? If so, please tell me the area as there needs to be some re-education there

thanks mike.

[JasonTX]

You must be confused with Offensive Pass Interference. If Team A is on their own 20 and commit OPI then that would be half the distance to their own goalline. Defensive Pass Interference is the spot of the foul or 15 yards (whichever comes first). As it was already said, if the snap was from the 17 and in and the foul is in the end zone then the ball will be spotted at the 2. The only time you go half the distance is when the ball was snapped on or inside the 2 yard line. Pretty simple and the rule is posted. My 4 year old has a good understanding of that rule so it's not that difficult to understand. :D

[whtfbplaya]

I just walked in from our game tonight 3:53 am and I cant believe this discussion is still going on. Wow

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
A team has the ball on the 20 yard line. They throw a pass into the endzone and pass interference is called. The refs spotted the ball on the 5. Is that the wrong call with half the distance to the goal being the rule b/c I thought it should of been on the 10. Or is there an exception bc it was a PI call?

Wow, notice how other members on the board now assume we arent as smart as their 4 year olds because we were confused on yard markoff on this particular penalty? Man, I wish I was as smart as them. I would then feel so much better about myself. And, my honesty was questioned by a member of the board because of a couple of my posts on this thread. Wow... ;)

[VAMike]

No need to be shy, I am the one who wondered if you really spoke to 5 real refs. While I will not go so far as to say my 4 year old grandchild would know this, I do believe any real ref with more than 1 year of experience would know it. That is why it is hard to believe you spoke to real refs.

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by VAMike
No need to be shy, I am the one who wondered if you really spoke to 5 real refs. While I will not go so far as to say my 4 year old grandchild would know this, I do believe any real ref with more than 1 year of experience would know it. That is why it is hard to believe you spoke to real refs.

you finding it hard to believe and telling me you question my honesty are two different things. For instance, I might think you are an idiot BUT telling you that you are an idiot would be something totally different. I posted the question on another forum that eagles_victory originally posted here and because I didn't bow down to you or anybody else on this board you decided to call me out on the other board. You don't even know me. I dont even know you? Are you an official? Could that be why you believe an official(s) wouldn't be wrong?

[VAMike]

No I am not an official but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and I do play one on TV at times. ;)

I suspect the "real" officials on this board will support my contention that this is such a basic rule , it would be hard to find "real" refs with any amount of experience who would not know it. In their defense, perhaps they thought you were talking about offensive pass interference, not defensive.

[Ranger Mom]

If Kaorder says he talked to 5 refs, then I believe him! In the 5 years I have known him, he has shown nothing but the upmost honesty and integrity!!

Geeeez....I didn't know that researching and questioning to gain a better understanding was such a bad thing!!:thinking:

[CenTexSports]

But from the other viewpoint, I posted the actual rule, the penalty enforcement and one other ruling and he still did not believe it.

And to VAMike's point: I am sure there are officials out there that don't know the penalty enforcement but ALL White Hats should. That is why I asked if the officials he talked to were white hats.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by CenTexSports
But from the other viewpoint, I posted the actual rule, the penalty enforcement and one other ruling and he still did not believe it.

And to VAMike's point: I am sure there are officials out there that don't know the penalty enforcement but ALL White Hats should. That is why I asked if the officials he talked to were white hats.

That's all fine and dandy, but to basically call him an out and out liar??

Maybe something got lost in translation, maybe they DON'T know the rules as well they should, who knows!!

I've read all the posts and the only clear understanding I have is that Kaorder is having a hard time comprehending the different things he has been told and is questioning it.....let's burn him at the stake!!:hand:

[CenTexSports]

I am with you RM but I there is a burn ban in most of Central Texas. Can we burn him out west?

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by CenTexSports
I am with you RM but I there is a burn ban in most of Central Texas. Can we burn him out west?

It takes a tree to make a stake, we don't have any of those out here!!

[rockdale80]

If KA says he called 5 refs, I believe him as well. He has been a stand up guy for several years, and I have no reason to doubt what he says.

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

This is retarded.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by ASUFrisbeeStud
This is retarded.

Agreed:)

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by ASUFrisbeeStud
This is retarded.

So why bother to even add your 2 cents worth?

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
So why bother to even add your 2 cents worth?

Are we not supposed to do that on a PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD? :D

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by rockdale80
Are we not supposed to do that on a PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD? :D

Sure.....I think it just makes one look silly to make a comment like that. I personally don't used the word "retarded", but if I come across a post I think is pointless, I just move on to the next one!! I'm sure no one cares if I think it's a stupid thread or not. :p

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Sure.....I think it just makes one look silly to make a comment like that. I personally don't used the word "retarded", but if I come across a post I think is pointless, I just move on to the next one!! I'm sure no one cares if I think it's a stupid thread or not. :p

Well I think it is stupid to question one person's honesty for no reason. That is why I agreed with the comment. KA has no reason to have his integrity challenged like that.

So you think "retarded" means pointless? Don't misunderstand the reason I am asking. The point is that in context it can be used to mean many different things, and not all of them are offensive. Its all in perception. :cool:




re·tard 1 (rĭ-tärd') Pronunciation Key
v. re·tard·ed, re·tard·ing, re·tards

v. tr.
To cause to move or proceed slowly; delay or impede.

v. intr.
To be delayed.

n.
A slowing down or hindering of progress; a delay.
Music A slackening of tempo.

adjective
: slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development

[Ranger Mom]

I never compared the two words and didn't substitute one for the other. If that was how you took it, it wasn't my intention.

I know all the definitions and would bet my house that he didn't mean "This is slow".....he meant "this is dumb".

To each their own though...he stated his opinion (as is his right) and so did I....which is my right!!:D :D :D

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I never compared the two words and didn't substitute one for the other. If that was how you took it, it wasn't my intention.

I know all the definitions and would bet my house that he didn't mean "This is slow".....he meant "this is dumb".

To each their own though...he stated his opinion (as is his right) and so did I....which is my right!!:D :D :D

Nope. I think he meant this def.

adjective
: slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development.

I guess you can take that as offensive if you want to.....
Either way. I was just trying to make the point that a words meaning is all in your perception of it.


:kiss:

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by rockdale80
I was just trying to make the point that a words meaning is all in your perception of it.


:kiss:

I know that...I just meant I wasn't going to quote his post, simply because I prefer not to use that word. It wasn't a slam to him, it is just my personal choice.

So....now that we have completely hijacked this thread....:p

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I know that...I just meant I wasn't going to quote his post, simply because I prefer not to use that word. It wasn't a slam to him, it is just my personal choice.

So....now that we have completely hijacked this thread....:p


I love hijacking this thread. Besides we may have done it a favor because it seemed to be going south. :D

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by CenTexSports
But from the other viewpoint, I posted the actual rule, the penalty enforcement and one other ruling and he still did not believe it.

When did I say I didnt believe it? I said none of what I was reading was making much sense. Its like reading a law book in some cases.

For instance...you posted:
When the ball is snapped between the Team B 17-yard line
and the Team B two-yard line and the spot of the foul is
beyond the two-yard line, the penalty from the previous
spot shall place the ball at the two-yard line, first down
(A.R. 7-3-8-XVII).
No penalty enforced from outside the two-yard line may
place the ball inside the two-yard line (Exception: Rule
10-2-2-g-2).

What I was trying to understand was what that had to do with the question in hand? We were talking about a snap being from the 20.

But its all over now. What I find interesting is that the five officials I talked to all had the same answer for me when I asked yet in this thread I've been made to look like the ignorant one for not knowing the penalty enforcement rule? And believe it or not, they were white hats. Sounds like the arent getting the proper training huh VAMike? I only have phone numbers for white hats that have their own crews. Then I spoke to one 5A head coach, one 4A head coach and one 3A head coach. Same answers. So, after talking to all of those I apologize for thinking they were right and relaying that to the message board.

[VAMike]

I don't have any doubt that the coaches did not know. That is a sad but true reality (and not only at the HS level)...the guys who livelihood IS this game do not even know some of the basic rules of the game.

But as for the white hats, ....your claims ring hollow. (Unless they are white hats working pee wee or subvarsity football only, i.e. local guys who are not TASO folks).

[CenTexSports]

I was referring to yout statement "Is this correct?" Who knows..."

And the rules about the ball being on the 17 says that the penalty enforcement is to pit the ball on the 2 *not half the distance.

The rule book does not cover the situation of the ball being on the 20. It only covers the actual rule (15 yards) and the exceptions (when the ball is inside the 17 and a full 15 can not be walked off. Then the ball is placed on the 2.

[3afan]

FYI - I was watching a replay of Naaman Forest-Plano West this morning ....

PW ball on the NF 24, pass play to the goal line, pass int called ... officials marked off the entire 15 yards to the 9 so they did not go half the distance

NF won the game by the way ...

[VAMike]

Obviously not reffed by one of KA's buddies

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by VAMike
Obviously not reffed by one of KA's buddies

Up until this tirade I respected you. Then you questioned a person's integrity because you seem to be omniscient, and know exactly who he asked. Its a real shame. I thought you were classy guy. I was mistaken....:doh:

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by VAMike
Obviously not reffed by one of KA's buddies

good one....

[3afan]

Originally posted by 3afan
FYI - I was watching a replay of Naaman Forest-Plano West this morning ....

PW ball on the NF 24, pass play to the goal line, pass int called ... officials marked off the entire 15 yards to the 9 so they did not go half the distance

NF won the game by the way ...


and it was a really good game!