"Cheaters Never Win"

[VAMike]

Pretty easy to see one receiver leave the field although I can't see where the replacement ran on (but he is there at the end of the play somehow)

Link to video: http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1287024725/bctid1297294534


From the Savannah Morning News:
Cheaters never win

Friday, November 9, 2007

Football coach who tried to cheat his way to a win deserves to lose his job.

IT'S NO wonder that Lakeside-Evans High School lost seven football games and won only three this year.

Even when they cheat, they're terrible at it.

Such was the case in Effingham County last Friday night.

That's when the team from Columbia County, near Augusta, embarrassed and belittled itself by attempting an illegal play in the waning seconds in a tight game against Effingham County High.

The Lakeside-Evans quarterback tossed a Hail Mary pass to a teammate who slipped onto the field from the sidelines near the end zone.

Fittingly, an Effingham defensive back picked it off.

Then the home team ran out the clock to preserve a hard-fought 7-0 victory and stay alive in the state playoff hunt.

For some inexplicable reason, the referees missed it.

Only after Effingham's coaches reviewed the game films this week did both schools find out that the visiting team tried to steal a touchdown.

Still, even if the subterfuge worked last Friday, what was Lakeside-Evans High Coach Jody Grooms thinking? That the refs wouldn't catch it? (He was right.)

That no one was filming the game, so he would get away with it?

(Wrong.)

That it's OK to teach young people how to cheat, because life is tough and rules are for suckers?

Time out for a reality check.

Yes, the sports pages frequently chronicle cheaters, dopers and others looking for an illegal edge.

So does the rest of the newspaper. And sadly, it's creeping into the nation's high schools.

The non-profit Josephson Institute, headed by Michael Josephson, who founded the national "Character Counts!" program, surveyed 5,275 high school athletes in 2005 and 2006.

Sadly, the results showed that coaches are teaching them how to bend, if not break, the rules to win.

Columbia County School Superintendent Charles Nagel said he talked with the principal at Lakeside-Evans about the coach.

Good.

Let's hope the principal delivers a pink slip. The last thing a losing program needs is a loser coach who cheats.

[nobogey72]

I agree, but what are you doing up so early?

[VAMike]

Don't ask, don't tell

[zebrablue2]

defense did a good job getting back. DUMB CALL. that is totally cheating. not acceptable. cannot believe a coach would try that.

[VAMike]

Coaches especially should know about the likelihood in today's world that things will be on video. Not sure how he thought he would get away with it. (Even though he clearly got away with it in the game itself)

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Then why do coaches teach offensive linemen to hold if it's against the rules?

[VAMike]

Most coaches teach techniques that the fan or uniformed observer might call holding but which the coach knows willnormally not be flagged as holding.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by VAMike
Most coaches teach techniques that the fan or uniformed observer might call holding but which the coach knows willnormally not be flagged as holding.

I played my fair share of days in the trenches, and I'm still close enough today to that playing linebacker, and I know what holding is and I also know that at both high school and college levels they teach athletes to hold, which is illegal, so what's the real difference?

[Old Tiger]

You can hold as long as you don't get outside the breast plates ;) That's the rule I always heard.

[VAMike]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I played my fair share of days in the trenches, and I'm still close enough today to that playing linebacker, and I know what holding is and I also know that at both high school and college levels they teach athletes to hold, which is illegal, so what's the real difference?

Like I said, what you THINK is holding is probably NOT holding

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by VAMike
Like I said, what you THINK is holding is probably NOT holding

No, I know the difference. You can go to classes and do this and that, but I live it almost every day of the week, you show up on Thursdays and Fridays and watch and blow a whistle. I know you're knowledgeable about what you're doing, but so am I. I'm just using that as a point though, coaches all across the country teach their players how to cheat, and teaching them how to hold and get away with it is doing the same thing. They want to roast a coach for teaching his players to cheat, but I guess since other things that are done that are not quite as blatant can slide. It's just food for thought, nothing else.

[Old Tiger]

Quit being stubborn Gary. There are written rules that specify what is and what is not holding and they officials abide by those set rules.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Go Blue
Quit being stubborn Gary. There are written rules that specify what is and what is not holding and they officials abide by those set rules.

You really need to work on your reading and comprehension skills, because it is a rare moment when you fully understand what anyone is talking about unless they spell it out with little block cubes for you.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
You really need to work on your reading and comprehension skills, because it is a rare moment when you fully understand what anyone is talking about unless they spell it out with little block cubes for you. So explain to me how it is cheating if the referee's do not see it as cheating since there are set rules for holding.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Go Blue
So explain to me how it is cheating if the referee's do not see it as cheating since there are set rules for holding.

Obviously as proven in the video previously posted, they don't catch everything. I know you have a brain in there, so if you have to sound out what I said and re-read it a couple of times I will understand.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Obviously as proven in the video previously posted, they don't catch everything. Then that goes along with the old saying "it's only cheating if ya get caught."

[CenTexSports]

In fairness to BBDE, holding as defined in the NCAA rules is probably just like he believes. Whether it is called or not is a different story.

For the sake of reality though the truth is that most holding called is done so by a perception based on something like the following:

Holding is the grasping of an oppoent (excluding ballcarrier) that gives the holder an advantage and has a likelyhood of affecting the results of the play.

Example of holding call: A tight end grabs the jersey of the defensive end on a sweep to their side potentially keeping the DE from making the tackle.

Example of a no call for holding: Ona sweep right, the tight end on the left side of the line grabs the jersey of a linebacker that has taken an outside rush that has him half the field away from the ballcarrier.

Another phrase used is point of attack. Was the holding at the point of attack?


There is not an official alive that would argue the holding takes place on EVERY play. But even the officials don't always agree to when it should be called.

[VAMike]

Originally posted by CenTexSports
In fairness to BBDE, holding as defined in the NCAA rules is probably just like he believes. Whether it is called or not is a different story.

For the sake of reality though the truth is that most holding called is done so by a perception based on something like the following:

Holding is the grasping of an oppoent (excluding ballcarrier) that gives the holder an advantage and has a likelyhood of affecting the results of the play.

This is the rule:
b. Holding or illegal obstruction by a teammate of the runner or passer applies to Rule 9-3-3-a:
1. The hand(s) and arm(s) shall not be used to grasp, pull or encircle in any way that illegally impedes or illegally obstructs an opponent.
2. The hand(s) or arm(s) shall not be used to hook, clamp or otherwise illegally impede or illegally obstruct an opponent (A.R. 9-3-3-I).

So you see, "holding" requires more than a grasp of the jersey. It requires that that act also impede or obstruct an opponent. The better officials can watch two players who are engaged and determine if one is truly being obstructed or impeded when the jeresy is grasped.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by VAMike
This is the rule:
b. Holding or illegal obstruction by a teammate of the runner or passer applies to Rule 9-3-3-a:
1. The hand(s) and arm(s) shall not be used to grasp, pull or encircle in any way that illegally impedes or illegally obstructs an opponent.
2. The hand(s) or arm(s) shall not be used to hook, clamp or otherwise illegally impede or illegally obstruct an opponent (A.R. 9-3-3-I).

So you see, "holding" requires more than a grasp of the jersey. It requires that that act also impede or obstruct an opponent. The better officials can watch two players who are engaged and determine if one is truly being obstructed or impeded when the jeresy is grasped.

Can you sound it out for me? I don't think that I quite understand what holding is even though you just told me something that I already knew....:rolleyes:

[zebrablue2]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Can you sound it out for me? I don't think that I quite understand what holding is even though you just told me something that I already knew....:rolleyes:

Ok. so I can tell you are a expert. after your college career, please join a chapter, and be the best damm umpire in the world, because I know you can spot holding 100 yards away. someone like you needs no rulebook.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by zebrablue2
Ok. so I can tell you are a expert. after your college career, please join a chapter, and be the best damm umpire in the world, because I know you can spot holding 100 yards away. someone like you needs no rulebook.

No, I don't need a rulebook to know what 99% of the rules of the game are or what holding is, and I also don't need know-it-alls to act high and mighty and try to tell me what I don't know (that's you and VAMike if you wanted clarification). As I said before, you can read a rulebook, put on a striped shirt, and don a whistle, but I live this game almost every day, not just a day or two out of the week. Do I know more than you? Probably not, but I know almost as much, and definitely enough that I know how to discern between what is holding and what is not. I tried to present one side of an argument about it and instead of arguing a point people like to argue the person. Coaches do teach players to deliberately cheat and illegally hold other players, collision recievers downfield after five yards, etc., and get away with it. I don't see anyone complaining about this though, even though it's cheating to gain a competitive advantage and win. Does this bother me? No, not really, because it's the official's job to catch it and make sure the game is played fair and honest, and if they don't catch it, then it doesn't matter because it's all a part of the game. You two guys need to go cuddle up with your rulebooks every night for the rest of the week and get ready for your big night of jogging up and down the sidelines and calling a perfect game next Friday night, and be sure to stretch so you don't pull a muscle.

[VAMike]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
... I live this game almost every day, not just a day or two out of the week. .... Coaches do teach players to deliberately cheat and illegally hold other players, collision recievers downfield after five yards, etc., and get away with it.

My apologies. I did not realize you were a NFL player which you clearly must be if you think there is a "5 yard rule".

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I also don't need know-it-alls to act high and mighty and try to tell me what I don't know (that's you and VAMike if you wanted clarification).
Considering that VAMike actually TEACHES officiating clinics, I would pretty much qualify him as an EXPERT, no matter how many days of the week he does it. :)

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Considering that VAMike actually TEACHES officiating clinics, I would pretty much qualify him as an EXPERT, no matter how many days of the week he does it. :)

I never questioned his officiating knowledge, I know he's a go-to-guy when it comes to special situations and I don't question him, I just don't think it's fair for me to get put on the spot for no reason. I may be wrong about some of my rules, i.e. about the collisioning of receivers, but I have played the game long enough to understand the simplest of rules. As I said before, some people find it easier to argue the person and not the point.

[JR2004]

Two things happened in this thread that were entertaining...

Striped shirt wagon circling.

The use of collisioning.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I never questioned his officiating knowledge, I know he's a go-to-guy when it comes to special situations and I don't question him, I just don't think it's fair for me to get put on the spot for no reason. I may be wrong about some of my rules, i.e. about the collisioning of receivers, but I have played the game long enough to understand the simplest of rules. As I said before, some people find it easier to argue the person and not the point.
When you decide to argue with an expert, and call them a know-it-all, how are you being put on the spot? :thinking:

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
When you decide to argue with an expert, and call them a know-it-all, how are you being put on the spot? :thinking:

Umm, have you read the entire thread, or just having trouble understanding what has been said?

[Emerson1]

You put yourself on the spot by trying to get into an argument.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Emerson1
You put yourself on the spot by trying to get into an argument.

Ehh, whatever. If people don't like what I have to say, then they can get over it because I'm not going to change.

[Emerson1]

Take your own advice

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Emerson1
Take your own advice

And you, also. ;)

[VAMike]

Punishment is announced -

From the Savannah Morning News:

AUGUSTA - Lakeside High School will be fined $250 by the Georgia High School Association for the actions of the football team and head coach Jody Grooms involving a controversial play at the end of the team's final game of the season.

Dr. Ralph Swearngin, GHSA executive director, said he reviewed a written report from Lakeside and came to a final decision Friday. The punishment also included a "severe warning status" placed on Grooms until the end of the 2008 football season.

"That means any more sportsmanship problems would bring harsher penalties," Swearngin said. "We don't fine coaches in this type of situation. We fine the school."

Swearngin said he was surprised when he learned that a coach in the GHSA attempted such a play.

"Obviously, we're strongly opposed to that kind of action," he said. "This seemed like it was very out of character."

Lakeside principal Dr. Jeff Carney, who is out of town this weekend with the Lakeside cheerleading squad at the state competition in Columbus, said he hadn't seen the report from the GHSA, but an assistant told him the total fine was $250.

"We totally respect the decision from the GHSA," Carney said. "We knew we did something wrong, and we were going to be punished."

Grooms has already publicly apologized for the illegal play - a pass play where one receiver ran off the field and another receiver came from the sideline onto the field - that he called late in a game at Effingham County on Nov. 2. Carney said Thursday that Grooms will be punished but not fired by the school.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Ehh, whatever. If people don't like what I have to say, then they can get over it because I'm not going to change. True story.

[Ranger Mom]

In my opinion....this got blown WAY out of proportion!

I felt like the "refs" were just letting ALL of us know what "holding" actually was.....and I thank them for that because I never really knew what constituted holdling and what didn't!

That being said, I don't see how you can even compare a hold to a player running off the field and standing on the sidelines, like he has been there the entire time, and running someone in on down the field.

Cheating may be cheating, but that was on a WAY different level than a hold......just my opinion, of course!!:D

[zebrablue2]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
In my opinion....this got blown WAY out of proportion!

I felt like the "refs" were just letting ALL of us know what "holding" actually was.....and I thank them for that because I never really knew what constituted holdling and what didn't!

That being said, I don't see how you can even compare a hold to a player running off the field and standing on the sidelines, like he has been there the entire time, and running someone in on down the field.

Cheating may be cheating, but that was on a WAY different level than a hold......just my opinion, of course!!:D

and a very good opinion it is R. Mom. friday night officials work 5 man crews. a little harder to spot some of the holds. college games have 7, it really helps having 2 more on the field. I wish they would give some thought to working 7 man crews in the playoffs in UIL. two more wings would help see more of the possible holding that goes on. JMO also.

[VAMike]

While I agree that larger crews are needed, especially as more and more teams go to the spread offenses, this play proves that is not the ultimate answer. This crew was actually a 6-man crew which means there was a deep guy on to the sideline where the mystery play came in from. How he missed it is beyond me.

[sinton66]

Refs are human too. I'm sure they try very hard not to get caught up in the game that unfolds before them, but I'm also sure it happens occasionally. Although probably rare, I doubt it's unheard of that a ref might miss a portion of a particular play. That doesn't excuse it, but it is understandable.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
In my opinion....this got blown WAY out of proportion!

I felt like the "refs" were just letting ALL of us know what "holding" actually was.....and I thank them for that because I never really knew what constituted holdling and what didn't!

That being said, I don't see how you can even compare a hold to a player running off the field and standing on the sidelines, like he has been there the entire time, and running someone in on down the field.

Cheating may be cheating, but that was on a WAY different level than a hold......just my opinion, of course!!:D

Yeah, I know there is no comparison. I hoped how absurd the entire argument sounded somebody would realize that I was being really sarcastic. Sorry for the confusion, I thought it was semi-funny, but would have been much better had VAMike not been such a mature poster and bit and argued with me a little.

[wimbo_pro]

The coach should be FIRED...immediately. This is a gross violation of the principles of ANY high school sport, and flies in the face of what the entire school sports program is about...teaching fair play, hard work and character. This is the basis of what high school is all about.

This illegal play was obviously practiced beforehand. Anyone who can justify this type of cheating in their minds for ANY reason should also not be coaching and/or mentoring kids. This is sad.

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
The coach should be FIRED...immediately. This is a gross violation of the principles of ANY high school sport, and flies in the face of what the entire school sports program is about...teaching fair play, hard work and character. This is the basis of what high school is all about.

This illegal play was obviously practiced beforehand. Anyone who can justify this type of cheating in their minds for ANY reason should also not be coaching and/or mentoring kids. This is sad.

Yeah I agree with you 100%.

[State_In_08]

Originally posted by ASUFrisbeeStud
Yeah I agree with you 100%.

Me too. This guy should be fired and barred from getting another HC job.

[rockdale80]

Originally posted by ASUFrisbeeStud
Yeah I agree with you 100%.


tambien....