Berkman

[Maroon87]

He needs to get in shape this coming off season and start acting like the team leader that the Astros expect him to be. I'm tired of watching him pout and be out of shape. With Bidge gone, this is his team next year. No excuses, Big Puma...

[themsu97]

as much as I like Bag and Big, I think the team gets better once they leave...
players who were let go during the Bag and Big era because they were not professional enough...
1) Bobby Abreu 2) Johann Santana 3) Freddy Garcia 4) mike Hampton 5) Carl Everett

speaks volumes... oh yeah, you could add Carlos Guillen, the two liked him but they loved Daryl Ward even more so they convinced Hunsicker to hang on to him instead of Guillen
choke on that line up for a minute... you front of the rotation is Oswalt, Santana and Garcia... pretty dang salty...

[zebrablue2]

Originally posted by Maroon87
He needs to get in shape this coming off season and start acting like the team leader that the Astros expect him to be. I'm tired of watching him pout and be out of shape. With Bidge gone, this is his team next year. No excuses, Big Puma...

agreed.

[UPanIN]

Hindsight always 20-20

I do agree about Berkman though.

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by themsu97
as much as I like Bag and Big, I think the team gets better once they leave...
players who were let go during the Bag and Big era because they were not professional enough...
1) Bobby Abreu 2) Johann Santana 3) Freddy Garcia 4) mike Hampton 5) Carl Everett

speaks volumes... oh yeah, you could add Carlos Guillen, the two liked him but they loved Daryl Ward even more so they convinced Hunsicker to hang on to him instead of Guillen
choke on that line up for a minute... you front of the rotation is Oswalt, Santana and Garcia... pretty dang salty...

Every team in the big leagues can make the same statements though about letting studs get away...heck, the Mariners had A-rod, Griffey, and Randy Johnson.

The Braves let Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine go because they were "too old", and they're now on two teams in strong contention for a playoff spot.

The Rangers let Travis Hafner, Chris Young, and Adrian Gonzalez go.

The Marlins let go Josh Beckett, Gary Sheffield, Pudge Rodriguez, Juan Pierre, etc. etc.

Anybody remember when the Royals had Johnny Damon and Carlos Beltran?

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
Every team in the big leagues can make the same statements though about letting studs get away...heck, the Mariners had A-rod, Griffey, and Randy Johnson.

The Braves let Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine go because they were "too old", and they're now on two teams in strong contention for a playoff spot.

The Rangers let Travis Hafner, Chris Young, and Adrian Gonzalez go.

The Marlins let go Josh Beckett, Gary Sheffield, Pudge Rodriguez, Juan Pierre, etc. etc.

Anybody remember when the Royals had Johnny Damon and Carlos Beltran? you cant really compare this to what themsu97 is saying he is talking about all the guys the stros let go before they hit the prime of their careers that could of easily been resigned because they hadnt blossomed yet and wouldnt be asking for a huge contract

Most of the guys you listed were already superstars on their teams and had to be let go because the team couldnt afford to pay them IMO thats not the same as letting guys go before they hit their prime

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
you cant really compare this to what themsu97 is saying he is talking about all the guys the stros let go before they hit the prime of their careers that could of easily been resigned because they hadnt blossomed yet and wouldnt be asking for a huge contract

Most of the guys you listed were already superstars on their teams and had to be let go because the team couldnt afford to pay them IMO thats not the same as letting guys go before they hit their prime


well, I can't really get into other teams' farm systems or players they let get away when they were young since I'm not that familiar with every team, but I will still give you that Rangers example above...it fits what the Astros did perfectly.

The Braves let go of Jason Schmidt, Wilson Betemit, Jermaine Dye, Zach Miner, and Adam Wainwright...I'd say that's pretty close as well.

[BTEXDAD]

Originally posted by crzyjournalist03
well, I can't really get into other teams' farm systems or players they let get away when they were young since I'm not that familiar with every team, but I will still give you that Rangers example above...it fits what the Astros did perfectly.

The Braves let go of Jason Schmidt, Wilson Betemit, Jermaine Dye, Zach Miner, and Adam Wainwright...I'd say that's pretty close as well.

Red Sox let go of jeff bagwell.

[Buccaneer]

Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen were traded for Randy Johnson. Mike Hampton became a free agent and signed with Colorado. Abreu was taken in the expansion draft.

[BTEXDAD]

i agree with crzy journalist (sp?). All teams have let prospects go that turned out to be excellent major league players later on, or else had a lot of good years left.
It happens more now with all the free agency. In season trades, cutting payrolls etc. AStros are closer to home and have had a lot of recent trades of minor leaguers, so it's more noticeable and if we did the math they may be worse than many teams in evaluating talent, don't know for sure. It's not an exact science.

A few other players I was aware of being sent elsewhere and then having HOF numbers are Lou Brock originally with cubs. Traded to Cardinals in 1964. George Foster originally with SF Giants b4 going to big red machine in Cincy.
Pedro Martinez with Dodgers b4 Montreal and then Boston, then NY mets.

One interesting one is Curt Schilling. I wasn't aware of his draft and playing history. Thought he was Astro originally.
Drafted by Red Sox in 1986, but never played in majors for them till 2004.
Went to Orioles, Astros, Phillies, Diamonbacks, then back to Red Sox.

[Maroon87]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen were traded for Randy Johnson. Mike Hampton became a free agent and signed with Colorado. Abreu was taken in the expansion draft.

Actually, Hampton was traded to the Mets for Carl Everett, then left the Mets to sign as a FA with the Rockies.

[BTEXDAD]

Hampton originally signed by Seattle, so they let him go b4 astros did.

[themsu97]

you guys missed the point... these players were let go or not resigned, or traded, or made available for the expansion drafts were all sure fire prospects that were let go because Bags and Big said they did not want them...

[sahen]

Originally posted by themsu97
you guys missed the point... these players were let go or not resigned, or traded, or made available for the expansion drafts were all sure fire prospects that were let go because Bags and Big said they did not want them...

i find that hard to believe....prove it other than hearsay....i dont see mclaine sitting in his office going "well this guy could be the next cy young but since u 2 boys dont want him we will let him go play elsewhere...."

2 of those guys you named garcia and guillen were traded for randy johnson to try to win a world series, and if i remember at the time there were a lot of people happy abou tthat one other than biggio and bagwell....

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by themsu97
you guys missed the point... these players were let go or not resigned, or traded, or made available for the expansion drafts were all sure fire prospects that were let go because Bags and Big said they did not want them...

as I stated previously, if this is what you're using as reason to dislike the Astros organization, every team ahsp layers that it didn't resign, traded, or made available for expansion...and they weren't sure fire.

[SWMustang]

sure fire prospects "misfire" all the time.

[Bull Butter]

Originally posted by themsu97
you guys missed the point... these players were let go or not resigned, or traded, or made available for the expansion drafts were all sure fire prospects that were let go because Bags and Big said they did not want them...

And Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio told you this personally, right?

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by themsu97
as much as I like Bag and Big, I think the team gets better once they leave...
players who were let go during the Bag and Big era because they were not professional enough...
1) Bobby Abreu 2) Johann Santana 3) Freddy Garcia 4) mike Hampton 5) Carl Everett

Biggio is still one of the "better" players on a slouchy astros team...

Mike Hampton? He's a big bust now in NY, the Mets signed him to that big deal and are paying for it, he's not what they thought he'd be though he was good in Houston and a little bit in what was it, Colorado?... Everett? he was great for the Stros but started falling off after leaving Houston, it wasn't a bad trade... He had a lot of personal issues in his other stops, good trade...

The first three are great players, along with Hampton and Everett, but Bags and BGO were still at the top of their games in those years, why get rid of 'em?

Minus Hampton and Everett, who I feel are the lesser of the five mentioned, what did the other three prove that made them so much greater than Bags and Big, the backbone of the Astros franchise BACK THEN?

the only arguement you'd have is for a player left off of the list, Kent, but they were still willing to keep Kent at second and BGO outfield (which was working), Kent just wanted to go back to Cali for family reasons...

Beltran? he left on his own, wasn't anything Houston could do about it...

the FACT is that Houston isn't gunna have those blockbuster deals going down... they do what they do off of giving players the smallest amount of money possible... no matter who you get rid of you're not gunna keep a lot of the bigger names... Biggio and Bagwell have always stuck around for less, showing a great dedication to this franchise and city, you can't turn your back on that...

[Gobbla2001]

ohhh... you're saying because bags and bigs didn't want them?

So they want Jason Lane? Pretty sure they had a lot to do with sending Ensberg off...

What about Wags? He's closer of the week this week in Philly, right?

I bet Biggio said Taveras wasn't worth keeping either...

Where'd you get this from? have never heard it... or is it your "theory"?

[Gobbla2001]

and just think, if we had kept Hampton Inn, would we have had Roger, Andy and The Wiz on the mound for the 'Stros in the same year?...

would we have ever gotten a taste of Beltran, Kent and now Lee by keeping these other players...

Our biggest problem is the pitching... Andy wanted to leave and Clemens left, Backe has been injured and Lidge is glitching.... then on the other side Hunter is injured, Puma hasn't had his best year and PooPoo thinks Lane is our best bet... we're just screwed right now, that's all there is to it...

[Gobbla2001]

and to echo Bucc's comment about Randy Johnson, that was almost a smart trade... Johnson was great in Houston... Houston just won't throw down too much cash for too long for anyone, that's the problem...

[themsu97]

no, as far as Johnson was concerned, the Astros offered him some cash, he just wanted to be back home in Arizona... Boras played the Astros in the Beltran deal, no fault to the Astros...
uuuhhhh... Hampton has since left the Mets and is with the Braves...
and yes, I know some people within the Astros organization... and so I know what is true...
as for Johnson, the Mariners wanted Daryle Ward and another player...

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by themsu97
no, as far as Johnson was concerned, the Astros offered him some cash, he just wanted to be back home in Arizona... Boras played the Astros in the Beltran deal, no fault to the Astros...
uuuhhhh... Hampton has since left the Mets and is with the Braves...
and yes, I know some people within the Astros organization... and so I know what is true...
as for Johnson, the Mariners wanted Daryle Ward and another player...

yah, I was all screwed up with Hampton and Wagner... Hampton did get sent to the Braves because he wasn't workin' out for the Mets and Wagner is now with the Mets, not the Phillies...

so who do you know? who said it? their opinion or do they for sure know?

[UPanIN]

Originally posted by themsu97

and yes, I know some people within the Astros organization... and so I know what is true...


:clap: :clap: :clap:

[g$$]

Originally posted by Maroon87
He needs to get in shape this coming off season and start acting like the team leader that the Astros expect him to be. I'm tired of watching him pout and be out of shape. With Bidge gone, this is his team next year. No excuses, Big Puma...

Agreed & something I have been saying for a while too.

[g$$]

Originally posted by themsu97
as much as I like Bag and Big, I think the team gets better once they leave...
players who were let go during the Bag and Big era because they were not professional enough...
1) Bobby Abreu 2) Johann Santana 3) Freddy Garcia 4) mike Hampton 5) Carl Everett

speaks volumes... oh yeah, you could add Carlos Guillen, the two liked him but they loved Daryl Ward even more so they convinced Hunsicker to hang on to him instead of Guillen
choke on that line up for a minute... you front of the rotation is Oswalt, Santana and Garcia... pretty dang salty...

MSU, respectfully:

You know your stuff usually but you are off-base on this one. I always enjoy your posts so please don't get offended. No doubt, Bags & Biggio had some clout in the organization but...

1. Abreu = orgainzation picked Hidalgo over him & thus Abreu went in the expansion draft to Tampa Bay (& then Philly later). Nothing to do with Bags & Biggio. In the end, wrong move.

2. Santana = left off 40 man roster & then eventually made his way to Minnesota; he was a late bloomer from Venezuala when Andres Reiner started our Academy there. Just missed on evaluation of him b/c he is a stud no doubt. Never known as a troublemaker.

3. Garcia & Guillen = also Venezuelans whom we included in the Randy Johnson trade along w/ LHP John Halama; organization loved them but chance to go for it all that year (& lost to SD & Kevin Brown in best of 5 series). Best Astros team ever in 1998 talent-wise. Garcia had a good run but now has arm problems again.

4. Carl Everett = had some good years in Houston & loved it here; Bags & Biggio have remarked that he was no problem in Houston after problems elsewhere. No doubt a head case but behaved in Houston.

5. Hampton = traded to Mets for fear of contract demands, Colorado overpaid for him as FA & then shipped him to Atlanta & paid most of his deal. I loved Hampton, but that deal made no sense. Lots of arm problems too still.

So, I agree with you on D. Ward, but to blame Bags & Biggio for organizational mistakes is wrong. I don't know it all but I worked for the Astros in the front office out of college & have followed them for 30+ years. Hunsicker was a heck of a GM & I miss him everyday I see & hear "Timid Tim" Purpura. Purp is a joke & yes man (I worked directly for him in Player Development in 1994). Everybody misses on some prospects, but Hunsicker was very shrewd most of the time. Think Backe, Wheeler, etc. as under the radar deals.

Beltran chose to leave & held the Astros hostage. I do blame the Astros though for letting Boras dictate the terms of negotiating. Beltran wanted to go to NY b/c of Omar Minaya & the big stage.

This past Draft: we ranked 30th out of 30 teams in paying 1st 10 round picks ($536,000). No 1st or 2nd round picks (Lee & Woody signings), then failed to sign 3rd & 4th rounders. Organization is a mess right now. I blame Drayton & yes man Purpura.

[g$$]

Originally posted by Gobbla2001

the FACT is that Houston isn't gunna have those blockbuster deals going down... they do what they do off of giving players the smallest amount of money possible... no matter who you get rid of you're not gunna keep a lot of the bigger names... Biggio and Bagwell have always stuck around for less, showing a great dedication to this franchise and city, you can't turn your back on that...

Last year, Houston had a payroll in the top 3 in all of MLB (over $100 million). This year it is in the top 1/3 ($95 million minus Bags $7 million = $88 million). No longer an argument for Houston. Draw over 3 million & revenues close to $200 million. Houston can pay players = Carlos Lee 6 yrs. & $100 million for example. Just have to be selective to fill in the gaps.

Poor drafting & development recently & poor trades (see Jennings, etc.) have caused the decline. Payroll is not the problem. Houston must draft & develop top talent to survive, then pay selctively for FAs. Currently, minor league system is rated in bottom 1/3 of MLB. There is the PROBLEM, period.

[g$$]

ttt


See ya Purp!