Bald Eagle Comeback and the Myth of DDT

[Pudlugger]

Thanks to Rachel Carson 3 million people die each year from malaria (http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/bald_eagle_no_longer_endangere.html) due to the ban on the use of DDT to control mosquitoes in tropical and underdeveloped countries. Contrary to Ms. Carson's assertion that DDT caused thinning of the egg shells in Bald Eagles and other avian species we know now that that is not true. Unintended consequences indeed when 3 million people die from malaria each year. When Sri Lanka was using DDT the number of cases of malaria was 195 per year down from a 250,000 before DDT. It went back up to 250,000 four years after the UN ban. Maybe those folks who say that it would do no harm to impose economically crippling regulations on wealthy Western nations over the possibility, however remote, that it would save us from "Global Warming" should pause and consider the effects from unintended consequences.

I just thought this was worth considering while we wait for football season to begin, especially on another rainy weekend day.. Given the propaganda from our academics and media I like to insert some balance into the discussion. Since many of the younger posters on here don't get the full story from their teacher's anymore it is important to take a minute to interject some truth wherever possible, even on this board, which is a great little virtual community for all ages and genders of sports fans.:)

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
Thanks to Rachel Carson 3 million people die each year from malaria (http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/bald_eagle_no_longer_endangere.html) due to the ban on the use of DDT to control mosquitoes in tropical and underdeveloped countries. Contrary to Ms. Carson's assertion that DDT caused thinning of the egg shells in Bald Eagles and other avian species we know now that that is not true. Unintended consequences indeed when 3 million people die from malaria each year. When Sri Lanka was using DDT the number of cases of malaria was 195 per year down from a 250,000 before DDT. It went back up to 250,000 four years after the UN ban. Maybe those folks who say that it would do no harm to impose economically crippling regulations on wealthy Western nations over the possibility, however remote, that it would save us from "Global Warming" should pause and consider the effects from unintended consequences.

I just thought this was worth considering while we wait for football season to begin, especially on another rainy weekend day.. Given the propaganda from our academics and media I like to insert some balance into the discussion. Since many of the younger posters on here don't get the full story from their teacher's anymore it is important to take a minute to interject some truth wherever possible, even on this board, which is a great little virtual community for all ages and genders of sports fans.:)

Do you really know what DDT does and how powerful of a poison it is? I do, and it's very lethal....

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Do you really know what DDT does and how powerful of a poison it is? I do, and it's very lethal....

I'm gonna have to agree with you Gary, it's bad stuff. Ya know why alot of people die from Malaria?

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Did you hear about all of the people in Louisiana who got sick and a lot got cancer because they were using it as a pesticide underneath their homes to kill cockroaches and it never broke down? Bad stuff indeed.

[DDBooger]

gary, you don't understand, you are ignorant because you are young and in college, we should be old, stagnant and accept narrow POV's ;) :thinking: any class i've taken has asked me to decide based on both arguments be it historically(revisionists) or sociologically(hence why I spend so much time critiquing peer reviewed articles)boring lol. I love the "they are in college they don't know anything" argument! lmao. to each their own, opinions will vary, but so will suitable facts to someones agenda, Left or Right!:p :nerd:

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Do you really know what DDT does and how powerful of a poison it is? I do, and it's very lethal....

BBDE do you really know? Read about the myths of ddt and human exposure here. (http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.html)

DDT has been greatly exaggerated as a toxin. Most studies demonstrating toxicity were animal studies were the subjects were feed thousands of times the amounts of ddt humans or birds are exposed to in the environment. Please check this out. (You too DDbooger). No offense about being in school, but you are not getting all the facts.

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by ASUFrisbeeStud
I'm gonna have to agree with you Gary, it's bad stuff. Ya know why alot of people die from Malaria?

How many people were known to have died from ddt exposure over the 20 years or so it was used? I really doubt that you can come up with a handful(maybe some ddt workers fell into a huge vat of it and drowned lol) let alone the millions of people, mostly children who now die yearly from malaria because of the ban on ddt.

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
BBDE do you really know? Read about the myths of ddt and human exposure here. (http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.html)

DDT has been greatly exaggerated as a toxin. Most studies demonstrating toxicity were animal studies were the subjects were feed thousands of times the amounts of ddt humans or birds are exposed to in the environment. Please check this out. (You too DDbooger). No offense about being in school, but you are not getting all the facts. im not speaking of DDT, doesn't concern me and i have no knowledge of it. im concerned with your characterization of all students and academia. do you base you opinion on some individual example of a mediocre student? some dramatic instance that you characterize others or is it just a defense from people with Ph.D. in front of their name? personally I believe you overcharacterize what you perceive as single-minded opinions. It seems prior to college I only saw things in one spectrum, where as after I was exposed to multi-faceted arguments. i am capable of strengthening or backing off stances I had prior. remember all you have done is post something someone else researched, more than likely college educated and if not a Ph.D. at least an expert on the field. Until anyone here produces any research of their own, we are tools to the literature we put forth as logic and fact.

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by DDBooger
im not speaking of DDT, doesn't concern me and i have no knowledge of it. im concerned with your characterization of all students and academia. do you base you opinion on some individual example of a mediocre student? some dramatic instance that you characterize others or is it just a defense from people with Ph.D. in front of their name? personally I believe you overcharacterize what you perceive as single-minded opinions. It seems prior to college I only saw things in one spectrum, where as after I was exposed to multi-faceted arguments. i am capable of strengthening or backing off stances I had prior. remember all you have done is post something someone else researched, more than likely college educated and if not a Ph.D. at least an expert on the field. Until anyone here produces any research of their own, we are tools to the literature we put forth as logic and fact.

I did not intend to demean our students in any way and in re-reading my post I don't see where I did. In fact, I only bother to post this contrarian information because I care about the younger generation and want to broaden some minds. What is wrong with that?

I do feel that schools are decidedly one sided in such issues as environmental sciences and certainly social sciences and literature. Sadly, the hard sciences are moving in that direction when professors state that in the case of "global warming" the debate is settled, skeptics are attacked as "deniers" and careers, tenure etc. hinge on adherence to "progressive" (read left wing) orthodoxy.

You must admit that much of what I have said regarding academia and bias is clearly evident in high schools and college these days. For example, "An Inconvenient Truth" has been shown in high schools around the nation as if it were gospel despite the fact that at least 7 of the alarmist assertions in the movie have been proven false as you can see here (http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/450392,CST-EDT-REF30b.article).

[mwynn05]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
I did not intend to demean our students in any way and in re-reading my post I don't see where I did. In fact, I only bother to post this contrarian information because I care about the younger generation and want to broaden some minds. What is wrong with that?

I do feel that schools are decidedly one sided in such issues as environmental sciences and certainly social sciences and literature. Sadly, the hard sciences are moving in that direction when professors state that in the case of "global warming" the debate is settled, skeptics are attacked as "deniers" and careers, tenure etc. hinge on adherence to "progressive" (read left wing) orthodoxy.

You must admit that much of what I have said regarding academia and bias is clearly evident in high schools and college these days. For example, "An Inconvenient Truth" has been shown in high schools around the nation as if it were gospel despite the fact that at least 7 of the alarmist assertions in the movie have been proven false as you can see here (http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/450392,CST-EDT-REF30b.article). well you do it in every post....you tend to come off like you think you are better than everyone else

[GreenMonster]

Actually, the DDT is no myth. Jake "The Snake" Roberts perfected the move in the early 80's and practically made a carreer out of it. He punched many a ticket with that one. It was quite innovative for it's time.

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by mwynn05
well you do it in every post....you tend to come off like you think you are better than everyone else

If you disagree with me fine let's discuss the facts. I have not asserted that I am superior to anyone on this board. Please quote me where I have done so. Bias is a fact in academia. The research bears it out. If what I write provokes you to think then that is good. If it just makes you angry and feeling inferior, well I'm sorry but that was not my intent.

[sinton66]

FYI, folks, don't assume Pudlugger isn't college educated.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
How many people were known to have died from ddt exposure over the 20 years or so it was used? I really doubt that you can come up with a handful(maybe some ddt workers fell into a huge vat of it and drowned lol) let alone the millions of people, mostly children who now die yearly from malaria because of the ban on ddt.


Well, would you be willing to drink DDT, or apply it with your children out playing in the yard, or spray it under your house and have your grandchildren play in it a few days afterwards?

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Well, would you be willing to drink DDT, or apply it with your children out playing in the yard, or spray it under your house and have your grandchildren play in it a few days afterwards?

Actually it was used extensively around where I grew up as a child and just because I have three eyes and an arm coming out of my arse doesn't mean it is a bad thing!

[Hupernikomen]

That was a good read Pudlugger. It certainly is slanted toward the pro-DDT side. A lot more science out there than just the stats he quoted. Much of it unfavorable toward DDT. From what I have gather DDT hasn't been discontinued in developing countries at all. Perhaps it isn't used as much as is needed, and efforts are being made to increase it. I can tell you from a personal stand point I did a gas chomatograph in college and we found traces of DDT/DDE in the pond water sample we took. Stuff is very persistant.

[mwynn05]

Originally posted by sinton66
FYI, folks, don't assume Pudlugger isn't college educated. Oh I know he is....but some of us are a lot smarter than he thinks we are...my head isnt so farup the left or rights ass that i can see what is going on

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by mwynn05
Oh I know he is....but some of us are a lot smarter than he thinks we are...my head isnt so farup the left or rights ass that i can see what is going on

Hey man I never said anybody was not smart or astute. Let's play fair here. I just am presenting some views that you don't get in a biased academic setting these days.

[crzyjournalist03]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
Hey man I never said anybody was not smart or astute. Let's play fair here. I just am presenting some views that you don't get in a biased academic setting these days.

interesting that you say that about academic settings...I've recently graduated from college and noticed throughout my years that professors have a tendency to teach their leanings as fact. Whether it's global warming, evolution, the existence of Jesus, even how JFK was murdered, it seems that while a college prides itself on "diversity" and "open-mindedness", you only get one side of the story in any class.

[sinton66]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Well, would you be willing to drink DDT, or apply it with your children out playing in the yard, or spray it under your house and have your grandchildren play in it a few days afterwards?

Gary, I use pesticides/weed killers around my place all the time. I don't have a lot of choice if I want to go enjoy the outdoors. The mosquitos here will carry you off if you don't spray for them. The big "secret" is to follow the manufacturer's directions for use. I doubt anyone is stupid enough to drink the stuff. Heck, Roundup is the same thing as "Agent Orange" used in VietNam, only in much weaker concentrations.

[charlesrixey]

Originally posted by sinton66
Gary, I use pesticides/weed killers around my place all the time. I don't have a lot of choice if I want to go enjoy the outdoors. The mosquitos here will carry you off if you don't spray for them. The big "secret" is to follow the manufacturer's directions for use. I doubt anyone is stupid enough to drink the stuff. Heck, Roundup is the same thing as "Agent Orange" used in VietNam, only in much weaker concentrations.

True

Also,
most modern ograno-phosphate pesticides (of which DDT is not) are close cousins of military chemical nerve agents such as Sarin and VX

in fact, nerve agents were discovered as a result of german pesticide science in the 1930's, although only hitler was crazy enough to introduce them to warfare at the time.

my job in the military is chemical/biological/nuclear warfare, and ironically i just finished a class about environmental issues as one of my last classes needed for my degree

despite all this, DDT is not an organo-phosphate, and is less carcinogenic than many other pesticides used today (not on most agriculture, though)
The text talks extensively about DDT, claiming that it is indeed a carcinogen/teratogen, but not as bad as has been assumed in the past. The book does not argue the claims of weakening egg shells of birds, but wonders whether or not it is worth the environmental impact to use what is unquestionably the best weapon against mosquitos and malaria; which has saved millions of lives and would continue to do so if allowed to be used.



how funny-- a roundup commercial just came on!

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by sinton66
FYI, folks, don't assume Pudlugger isn't college educated.


Originally posted by Pudlugger
Since many of the younger posters on here don't get the full story from their teacher's anymore it is important to take a minute to interject some truth wherever possible
is this any less presumptious? perhaps an even handed remark would befit your attempt at chastizing some and not the others!

it is pudlugger's opinion, i respect that! but it is just that!

[DDBooger]

on a other note i can't speak for those in the enviromental or scientific field, but in sociology I run into some professors who lean one way or the other, you can spot them in class when they shoot down students arguments as being uninformed. I've had the pleasure of working with professors who have layed out all theories before us and instead of preaching why one is right and one is wrong we analyze, critique and summize where the short-comings are. however in my field i'll have the unique opportunity to test many of the biases and theories people come up with based on quantitative methods. ex. religiousity, racial prejudices, networking(very popular right now), deviance. thing is while conducting research we must be careful to not immerse our personal politics and feelings in to the study(ex. asking loaded questions). and the literature i must read warns me of it, hence why we have peer reviewal!

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by DDBooger
on a other note i can't speak for those in the enviromental or scientific field, but in sociology I run into some professors who lean one way or the other, you can spot them in class when they shoot down students arguments as being uninformed. I've had the pleasure of working with professors who have layed out all theories before us and instead of preaching why one is right and one is wrong we analyze, critique and summize where the short-comings are. however in my field i'll have the unique opportunity to test many of the biases and theories people come up with based on quantitative methods. ex. religiousity, racial prejudices, networking(very popular right now), deviance. thing is while conducting research we must be careful to not immerse our personal politics and feelings in to the study(ex. asking loaded questions). and the literature i must read warns me of it, hence why we have peer reviewal!

Excellent! That is how it should be. Keep it up.:)

[DDBooger]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
Excellent! That is how it should be. Keep it up.:) ;) im not an activist, hence why i'll be a great sociologist! lmao

[Snyder_TigerFan]

Originally posted by GreenMonster
Actually, the DDT is no myth. Jake "The Snake" Roberts perfected the move in the early 80's and practically made a carreer out of it. He punched many a ticket with that one. It was quite innovative for it's time.

That made me snort. I guess he's one of the few wrestlers during that generation that is still alive.