Immigrants Mooching off the U.S.

[Keith7]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/04/05/business/soc.sec.583.1.jpg
Illegal immigrants who worked in a vineyard in Clarksburg, Calif., paid taxes for Social Security and Medicare, but will not get any benefits.


Illegal immigrants who worked in a vineyard in Clarksburg, Calif., paid taxes for Social Security and Medicare, but will not get any benefits.

By EDUARDO PORTER

The New York Times

STOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.

Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.

Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."

It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.

IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation.

Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.

Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant.

"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

Other researchers say illegal immigrants are the main contributors to the suspense file. "Illegal immigrants account for the vast majority of the suspense file," said Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "Especially its growth over the 1990's, as more and more undocumented immigrants entered the work force."

Using data from the Census Bureau's current population survey, Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies, an advocacy group in Washington that favors more limits on immigration, estimated that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes in 2002.

A comparative handful of former illegal immigrant workers who have obtained legal residence have been able to accredit their previous earnings to their new legal Social Security numbers. Mr. Camarota is among those opposed to granting a broad amnesty to illegal immigrants, arguing that, among other things, they might claim Social Security benefits and put further financial stress on the system.

The mismatched W-2's fit like a glove on illegal immigrants' known geographic distribution and the patchwork of jobs they typically hold. An audit found that more than half of the 100 employers filing the most earnings reports with false Social Security numbers from 1997 through 2001 came from just three states: California, Texas and Illinois. According to an analysis by the Government Accountability Office, about 17 percent of the businesses with inaccurate W-2's were restaurants, 10 percent were construction companies and 7 percent were farm operations.

Most immigration helps Social Security's finances, because new immigrants tend to be of working age and contribute more than they take from the system. A simulation by Social Security's actuaries found that if net immigration ran at 1.3 million a year instead of the 900,000 in their central assumption, the system's 75-year funding gap would narrow to 1.67 percent of total payroll, from 1.92 percent - savings that come out to half a trillion dollars, valued in today's money.

Illegal immigrants help even more because they will never collect benefits. According to Mr. Goss, without the flow of payroll taxes from wages in the suspense file, the system's long-term funding hole over 75 years would be 10 percent deeper.

Yet to immigrants, the lack of retirement benefits is just part of the package of hardship they took on when they decided to make the trek north. Tying vines in a vineyard some 30 miles north of Stockton, Florencio Tapia, 20, from Guerrero, along Mexico's Pacific coast, has no idea what the money being withheld from his paycheck is for. "I haven't asked," Mr. Tapia said.

For illegal immigrants, Social Security numbers are simply a tool needed to work on this side of the border. Retirement does not enter the picture.

"There will be a moment when I won't be able to continue working," Mr. Martínez acknowledges. "But that's many years off."

Mario Avalos, a naturalized Nicaraguan immigrant who prepares income tax returns for many workers in the area, including immigrants without legal papers, observes that many older workers return home to Mexico. "Among my clients," he said, "I can't recall anybody over 60 without papers."

No doubt most illegal immigrants would prefer to avoid Social Security altogether. As part of its efforts to properly assign the growing pile of unassigned wages, Social Security sends about 130,000 letters a year to employers with large numbers of mismatched pay statements.

Though not an intended consequence of these so-called no-match letters, in many cases employers who get them dismiss the workers affected. Or the workers - fearing that immigration authorities might be on their trail - just leave.

Last February, for instance, discrepancies in Social Security numbers put an end to the job of Minerva Ortega, 25, from Zacatecas, in northern Mexico, who worked in the cheese department at a warehouse for Mike Campbell & Associates, a distributor for Trader Joe's, a popular discount food retailer with a large operation in California.

The company asked dozens of workers to prove that they had cleared up or were in the process of clearing up the "discrepancy between the information on our payroll related to your employment and the S.S.A.'s records." Most could not.

Ms. Ortega said about 150 workers lost their jobs. In a statement, Mike Campbell said that it did not fire any of the workers, but Robert Camarena, a company official, acknowledged that many left.

Ms. Ortega is now looking for work again. She does not want to go back to the fields, so she is holding out for a better-paid factory job. Whatever work she finds, though, she intends to go on the payroll with the same Social Security number she has now, a number that will not jibe with federal records.

With this number, she will continue paying taxes. Last year she paid about $1,200 in Social Security taxes, matched by her employer, on an income of $19,000.

She will never see the money again, she realizes, but at least she will have a job in the United States.

"I don't pay much attention," Ms. Ortega said. "I know I don't get any benefit."

[Pudlugger]

Tough. Maybe they will go back to Mexico and live off the fat of the land under the great Mexican government. If they came in illegally and worked illegally with fake SSNs then they have no right to complain. I say fine them 200% of what they paid into SS and deport them asap.:mad:

[piratebg]

Didn't this thread get the axe already?

[sinton66]

Originally posted by piratebg
Didn't this thread get the axe already?

nope, no mention of republicans or democrats, and it BETTER stay that way.

[carter08]

If someone wants to come here illegally, work, and pay taxes, then let them. As long as they understand they don't have the rights of citizens, I have no problem with it. I consider them on an extended vacation with a job to pay for the vacation.

.

[piratebg]

Originally posted by sinton66
nope, no mention of republicans or democrats, and it BETTER stay that way.

5). No political/religious topics.
Political topics involving American political parties and their current candidates for office (or those already elected) and religious topics are forbidden. Both of these generally invoke problems and sometimes cause hard feelings.


Shouldnt it say No political party/religious topics instead because immigration is a big political issue right now.

[piratebg]

po·lit·i·cal (p-lt-kl)
adj.

Of, relating to, or dealing with the structure or affairs of government, politics, or the state

[sinton66]

Our definition:

Political topics involving American political parties and their current candidates for office (or those already elected) and religious topics are forbidden. Both of these generally invoke problems and sometimes cause hard feelings.

[piratebg]

Originally posted by sinton66
Our definition:


I understand the definition, but the title is what I was trying to bring attention too.

[sinton66]

Sorry, I don't see a conflict. It says they're prohibited, and gives a clear definition what it's talking about.

[piratebg]

Originally posted by sinton66
Sorry, I don't see a conflict. It says they're prohibited, and gives a clear definition what it's talking about.

My only conflict, and it's just being nit picky, is that it says "No political topics" in yellow print and then goes on to say that it is not political topics that are not allowed, it is just those political threads that actually mention policitcal parties. Political topics of all kind, not just those that mention parties, generally invoke problems and sometimes cause hard feelings. I guess, and this is just my opinion, I believe that if a rule says "No Political Topics" then it should enforce "No Political Topics."

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by carter08
If someone wants to come here illegally, work, and pay taxes, then let them. As long as they understand they don't have the rights of citizens, I have no problem with it. I consider them on an extended vacation with a job to pay for the vacation.

I think you guys have let the media define your existence. There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant. There are immigrants who go thru the process to enter the country. Then there are illegal aliens who should be deported for breaking the law.

[piratebg]

All I'm saying is that immigration is a political topic. That's all.

[sinton66]

Originally posted by piratebg
My only conflict, and it's just being nit picky, is that it says "No political threads" in yellow print and then goes on to say that it is not political threads that are not allowed, it is just those political threads that actually mention policitcal parties. Political threads of all kind, not just those that mention parties, generally invoke problems and sometimes cause hard feelings. I guess, and this is just my opinion, I believe that if a rule says "No Political Threads" then it should enforce "No Political Threads."

It doesn't say "No Political THREADS", it says "topics" and then defines them. Controversial topics do NOT have to involve political parties or particular politicians.

[sinton66]

Originally posted by piratebg
All I'm saying is that immigration is a political topic. That's all.

Not according to our definition.

[piratebg]

Originally posted by sinton66
Not according to our definition.


But it is to the rest of world, and a sensitive one at that. You have to at least recognize that.

[pirate4state]

:thinking: Still, this particular topic usually causes hard feelings among posters.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by piratebg
But it is to the rest of world, and a sensitive one at that. You have to at least recognize that.

Maybe it's because I am not a "political" person in the least.....but I don't consider the topic of illegal immigration political at all.

How do deal with it may be fought about between the parties....but the problem itself isn't political, IMO!!

[SintonFan_inAustin]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
There are immigrants who go thru the process to enter the country. . Hmm . The ones that go thru that process are educated and are ones that take the jobs from educated Americans. The illegal ones are taking the jobs that 90 % of us dont want to be seen doing for a living!

[carter08]

.

Sigh.
I won't post cartoons that can be taken out of context again. sorry.

[piratebg]

Originally posted by carter08



Oh boy.

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

Originally posted by carter08


That is quite distasteful and I am offended.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by SintonFan_inAustin
Hmm . The ones that go thru that process are educated and are ones that take the jobs from educated Americans. The illegal ones are taking the jobs that 90 % of us dont want to be seen doing for a living! This is a fallacy. The reason most Americans don't do these jobs is because they don't pay enough. If companies had to pay fair wages, then more Americans would do these jobs.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by piratebg
Oh boy.

I thought it was quite profound actually!!

[carter08]

Originally posted by ASUFrisbeeStud
That is quite distasteful and I am offended.

Why?

Because his name is Juan? Pretend his name is Sir Wigglebotham the Fourth then.

[piratebg]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I thought it was quite profound actually!!


I think it's funny but what is funnier is that it is still here and a joke about the democrats is going too far.

[sinton66]

Originally posted by ASUFrisbeeStud
That is quite distasteful and I am offended.

Well, he won't put any more of them on here.

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

Originally posted by carter08
Why?

Because his name is Juan? Pretend his name is Sir Wigglebotham the Fourth then.

Is Sir Wigglebotham the Fourth an "illegal"?

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Maybe it's because I am not a "political" person in the least.....but I don't consider the topic of illegal immigration political at all.

How do deal with it may be fought about between the parties....but the problem itself isn't political, IMO!!

You are of course quite correct. There is no issue here. Illegal aliens are exactly that and immigrants are exactly that.
The problem lies in the fact that certain groups want to allow illegal aliens to populate the country while other groups stand for the reason of law. That is when it can get quite ugly.

[SintonFan_inAustin]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
This is a fallacy. The reason most Americans don't do these jobs is because they don't pay enough. If companies had to pay fair wages, then more Americans would do these jobs. So if u get paid to dig ditches for $8 would u do it? i know u say that u have a education and can find better job than digging.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by SintonFan_inAustin
Hmm . The ones that go thru that process are educated and are ones that take the jobs from educated Americans. The illegal ones are taking the jobs that 90 % of us dont want to be seen doing for a living!

I disagree with that. The educated ones cannot hold many good jobs in this country. I have personal acquaintances with many well educated Mexicans. A doctor is working as a teacher at my wife's private school. Another man with a degree is selling cars.
And from a techical standpoint, I just tried to train a group of mexican nationals in Mexico to run a level I support desk and they simply cannot do the job. As far as the 90 %, tell that to the high school and college kids that want part time jobs and local work while they go to school. They can no longer find the type of work that they used to do.

Of course we do allow many technical people from all over to fill jobs of which we have shortages. And we have many technical and engineering and IT jobs that are not being filled by qualified people that are American.

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

Originally posted by carter08
Why?

Because his name is Juan? Pretend his name is Sir Wigglebotham the Fourth then.

Is Sir Wigglebotham the Fourth an "illegal"?

[sinton66]

He's banned from the thread, can't answer your question.

[piratebg]

TEST TEST TEST

[SintonFan_inAustin]

2 more months til Football talk/chats :mad:

[piratebg]

Oh thank God. :D

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

So how do you know we were talking about this thread in the one that just got deleted?

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
I disagree with that. The educated ones cannot hold many good jobs in this country. I have personal acquaintances with many well educated Mexicans. A doctor is working as a teacher at my wife's private school. Another man with a degree is selling cars.
And from a techical standpoint, I just tried to train a group of mexican nationals in Mexico to run a level I support desk and they simply cannot do the job. As far as the 90 %, tell that to the high school and college kids that want part time jobs and local work while they go to school. They can no longer find the type of work that they used to do.

Of course we do allow many technical people from all over to fill jobs of which we have shortages. And we have many technical and engineering and IT jobs that are not being filled by qualified people that are American.

Hell I have "American" friends with degrees that can't hold jobs and it has nothing to do with job availability, they're just lazy.

[sinton66]

Originally posted by ASUFrisbeeStud
So how do you know we were talking about this thread in the one that just got deleted?

Well, DUH!:D

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
You are of course quite correct. There is no issue here. Illegal aliens are exactly that and immigrants are exactly that.
The problem lies in the fact that certain groups want to allow illegal aliens to populate the country while other groups stand for the reason of law. That is when it can get quite ugly.

I agree 100%. My point is....just because it gets ugly, doesn't make it political!

I know democrats and republicans who feel the exact same way about this issue.

[piratebg]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
democrats and republicans


These are bad words RM. :dispntd:

[mustang04]

Originally posted by SintonFan_inAustin
So if u get paid to dig ditches for $8 would u do it? i know u say that u have a education and can find better job than digging.

if i couldnt find a better paying job then hell yeah i'd do it!!

i'd do whatever i had to to bring in money....but then again, i did work on a ranch when i was in 8th grade for a dollar an hour...and NO it wasnt our ranch lol

[District303aPastPlayer]

everyone gets up in arms about illegal immigrants... Hello stupid, who do you think founded the country? The first "settlers" were land thieves who robbed and killed off Native Americans. Going back to the United States' infancy, illegal aliens are the ones who came over from Europe. So if we are going to start deporting... remember where you came from and how you got here... cause it damn sure wasn't legal if you aren't a Native American

[mwynn05]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
everyone gets up in arms about illegal immigrants... Hello stupid, who do you think founded the country? The first "settlers" were land thieves who robbed and killed off Native Americans. Going back to the United States' infancy, illegal aliens are the ones who came over from Europe. So if we are going to start deporting... remember where you came from and how you got here... cause it damn sure wasn't legal if you aren't a Native American thats kind of a broad post and is kind of ignorant to me

[Emerson1]

Originally posted by mwynn05
thats kind of a broad post and is kind of ignorant to me
Not really

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by mwynn05
thats kind of a broad post and is kind of ignorant to me

how? the land that was settled by the European aliens was not theirs... so where is the fault in my statement

[No Show Jones]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
everyone gets up in arms about illegal immigrants... Hello stupid, who do you think founded the country? The first "settlers" were land thieves who robbed and killed off Native Americans. Going back to the United States' infancy, illegal aliens are the ones who came over from Europe. So if we are going to start deporting... remember where you came from and how you got here... cause it damn sure wasn't legal if you aren't a Native American I came from my mothers uterus. :)

That was way before our country was founded. We have grown to be the best country in the world. If illegal immigrants are going to come to America they should learn to speak our language because, I for one, do not believe we should have to learn spanish. Also I think we should make English the national language since we do not really have one.

[Emerson1]

Originally posted by No Show Jones
Also I think we should make English the national language since we do not really have one.
That won't happen for $$$ reasons

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by No Show Jones
I came from my mothers uterus. :)

That was way before our country was founded. We have grown to be the best country in the world. If illegal immigrants are going to come to America they should learn to speak our language because, I for one, do not believe we should have to learn spanish. Also I think we should make English the national language since we do not really have one.

Since English was the land of America to begin with.... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

[No Show Jones]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
Since English was the land of America to begin with.... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... I never said it was. The Pilgrims landed on North America not The United States of America. We were not a country then. So that flaws your statement.

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by No Show Jones
I never said it was. The Pilgrims landed on North America not The United States of America. We were not a country then. So that flaws your statement.

Okay... so answer me this... why did the Europeans not learn the language of the Native North Americans... seeing as how the Algonquian tribe was prevalent in the Northeast....

[No Show Jones]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
Okay... so answer me this... why did the Europeans not learn the language of the Native North Americans... seeing as how the Algonquian tribe was prevalent in the Northeast.... Because they had a damn good arbitrator:cool: :D

[KTA]

So if u get paid to dig ditches for $8 would u do it?

Heck no, I could go get a job at wal-mart and work in the cool AC for $8 a hr. See if those kinda jobs paid better wages more people like myself would be more inclined to take them.

[mwynn05]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
how? the land that was settled by the European aliens was not theirs... so where is the fault in my statement becasue this land was not an incorporated nation...there was no such thing as a united nation of native americans there might have been places that were incorporated but we didnt just land there and say its ours now....there was a lot more to it than that

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
everyone gets up in arms about illegal immigrants... Hello stupid, who do you think founded the country? The first "settlers" were land thieves who robbed and killed off Native Americans. Going back to the United States' infancy, illegal aliens are the ones who came over from Europe. So if we are going to start deporting... remember where you came from and how you got here... cause it damn sure wasn't legal if you aren't a Native American

So we should just open the borders and let anyone and everyone come into the country?

[Keith7]

Originally posted by SWMustang
So we should just open the borders and let anyone and everyone come into the country?

no but it doesn't need to be as big of an issue as it is... Illegal immigrants are a crucial part of our economy.. If you think gas prices are high now, imagine how much it would cost for everyday things we seem to take for granted like produce at the grocery store, immigrants are the people doing the majority of the work on many farms and if farmers had to pay them accordingly, produce would go up, people would not buy as much and now oops the farmer is in trouble now.. all because people are afraid of people from Mexico..

Same thing goes for roofing, construction crews, oil fields, landscaping, and many more.. with out illegal immigrants we would actually have to pay more, these people arn't mooching off of us, they have fake social security numbers they can't.. Illegal immigrants are going to be here regardless of what we do, we are just going to have to accept them and realize what they do for us and our economy

[SWMustang]

Originally posted by Keith7
no but it doesn't need to be as big of an issue as it is... Illegal immigrants are a crucial part of our economy.. If you think gas prices are high now, imagine how much it would cost for everyday things we seem to take for granted like produce at the grocery store, immigrants are the people doing the majority of the work on many farms and if farmers had to pay them accordingly, produce would go up, people would not buy as much and now oops the farmer is in trouble now.. all because people are afraid of people from Mexico..

Same thing goes for roofing, construction crews, oil fields, landscaping, and many more.. with out illegal immigrants we would actually have to pay more, these people arn't mooching off of us, they have fake social security numbers they can't.. Illegal immigrants are going to be here regardless of what we do, we are just going to have to accept them and realize what they do for us and our economy

So everyone agrees we shouldn't have millions of immigrants streaming into the country undocumented, correct? I'm not arguing against the value Mexican labor adds to our economy and I 100% disagree that illigal immigrants will be here (to the extent they are now) if employers and employees are given other options. Our economy should not be dependent on people engaging in illigal activities (forged documents, illegally entering the country, etc..) To argue that we should continue to turn a blind eye to the problem and that people who recognize this as a problem are "afraid of people from Mexico" is bad for everyone involved.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Keith7
.. all because people are afraid of people from Mexico.. I'm not sure how you can jump to that conclusion.:confused:

[Gobbler Fan]

Whats up with just the Mexican nationals being brought up in that immigration talk all the time . We have immigrants from everywhere just go to any city that has a section of the city called Chinatown or anything like that .... what we need is for every lazy butt American that says they cant find a job but is just fine sitting at home letting my taxes pay for raising his kids see what a person does that really wants to work*immigrants*and that folks is jmo . Have a good day !:D

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Keith7
.. all because people are afraid of people from Mexico..



I am sorry but that is an asinine statement...To simply say if your not for illegal immigration that means your afraid of a race, culture or country is immature and shows you have no more valid points

You can say I am attacking you, but I am not, I am attacking WHAT YOU SAID

That type of statement is why our country feels it has to walk on egg shells anytime certain subjects come up. If the wrong thing is said, or portrayed, then we are racisit, or afraid.

[JasperDog94]

For everyone that thinks it's no big deal and that we just just accept illegal aliens into our country, then you should do the following:

1. Go to work.
2. When you get home and find a group of people in your home, don't panic.
3. I know they are trespassing, but all they needed was a little bit of food.
4. Let them incorporate into your family, because after all, all they want is an opportunity to make a little money. Let them do a few odds and ends around the house for you.
5. Make sure that you communicate in their native language. After all it would be insensitive to their culture to adapt to your language.
6. If they get sick, make sure that you take them to the doctor and make sure that you pay for it, seeing as how they can't afford it. After all, you make a good living.
7. You also get the foot the bill for their education. Consider it an honor to do so. Just think of the lives that your changing.
8. Make sure that the education is also in their native language so as not to offend.

See how much sense this makes?

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I am sorry but that is an asinine statement...To simply say if your not for illegal immigration that means your afraid of a race, culture or country is immature and shows you have no more valid points

You can say I am attacking you, but I am not, I am attacking WHAT YOU SAID

That type of statement is why our country feels it has to walk on egg shells anytime certain subjects come up. If the wrong thing is said, or portrayed, then we are racisit, or afraid. Word.

[Keith7]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
For everyone that thinks it's no big deal and that we just just accept illegal aliens into our country, then you should do the following:

1. Go to work.
2. When you get home and find a group of people in your home, don't panic.
3. I know they are trespassing, but all they needed was a little bit of food.
4. Let them incorporate into your family, because after all, all they want is an opportunity to make a little money. Let them do a few odds and ends around the house for you.
5. Make sure that you communicate in their native language. After all it would be insensitive to their culture to adapt to your language.
6. If they get sick, make sure that you take them to the doctor and make sure that you pay for it, seeing as how they can't afford it. After all, you make a good living.
7. You also get the foot the bill for their education. Consider it an honor to do so. Just think of the lives that your changing.
8. Make sure that the education is also in their native language so as not to offend.

See how much sense this makes?

but wait this doesn't make much sense because they're not taking over our houses so I don't know how this situation would ever happen!? We don't feed them for just being here, they do work most americans won't do or if they will do it, its for twice as much pay as the illegals.. if an illegal ever wants to succeed in america he is going to have to learn english, and if not, he will just keep working the jobs that americans don't want to work so again whats the problem here?! and finally you are saying that kids born in the u.s. don't deserve to learn because they don't know english!? wow, I don't even have to comment on that

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Keith7
but wait this doesn't make much sense because they're not taking over our houses so I don't know how this situation would ever happen!? We don't feed them for just being here, they do work most americans won't do or if they will do it, its for twice as much pay as the illegals.. if an illegal ever wants to succeed in america he is going to have to learn english, and if not, he will just keep working the jobs that americans don't want to work so again whats the problem here?! and finally you are saying that kids born in the u.s. don't deserve to learn because they don't know english!? wow, I don't even have to comment on that The entire post was to show the absurdity of the crowd that says "they're not hurting anything". Invading your home is the same thing as invading your country. The other things were about paying for their healthcare and education (in spanish) and accomodating them even though they should have no rights in this country.

I'm not surprised that all of it was lost on you though.

[Keith7]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I am sorry but that is an asinine statement...To simply say if your not for illegal immigration that means your afraid of a race, culture or country is immature and shows you have no more valid points

You can say I am attacking you, but I am not, I am attacking WHAT YOU SAID

That type of statement is why our country feels it has to walk on egg shells anytime certain subjects come up. If the wrong thing is said, or portrayed, then we are racisit, or afraid.

Half the replies on here are from people complaining about how they are afraid of illegals taking jobs from u.s. citizens, afraid of them mooching off of "their tax money", afraid of their language taking over.. how can you say that was an immature and shows that I have no valid points? it is a very good point the fear of illegal immigrants is part of the reason why this is such a big topic among other things

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Keith7
Half the replies on here are from people complaining about how they are afraid of illegals taking jobs from u.s. citizens, afraid of them mooching off of "their tax money", afraid of their language taking over.. how can you say that was an immature and shows that I have no valid points? it is a very good point the fear of illegal immigrants is part of the reason why this is such a big topic among other things

Someone saying they are afraid of their jobs being taken, or afraid of how the system will be because of illegal immigrants is NOT saying the same thing as I am afraid of people from Mexico

Your taking what they said in general and trying to personalize it onto one race. Which makes for great one liners and emotional reactions, but has no validity in the argument

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Keith7
Half the replies on here are from people complaining about how they are afraid of illegals taking jobs from u.s. citizens, afraid of them mooching off of "their tax money", afraid of their language taking over.. how can you say that was an immature and shows that I have no valid points? it is a very good point the fear of illegal immigrants is part of the reason why this is such a big topic among other things Actually most of the people I talk to are pi$$ed off that we have to accommodate them all the time. Why is it "hating" to want them to learn English? Why is it "being afraid" to want our tax money to go towards legal citizens?

[Keith7]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
The entire post was to show the absurdity of the crowd that says "they're not hurting anything". Invading your home is the same thing as invading your country. The other things were about paying for their healthcare and education (in spanish) and accomodating them even though they should have no rights in this country.

I'm not surprised that all of it was lost on you though.


This might sound bad but a 2 bedroom rundown house in the middle of the ghetto with 8 people live in it is hardly my home.. They're not keeping me from living up to my potential in life, in fact they are helping it by keeping prices and labor reasonable.. I'm not saying lets open the gates and tell everyone to move in.. i'm just saying our current immigrations policies are fine.. heck I know about 10 teachers at Gainesville ISD who wouldn't have jobs if they didn't help spanish speaking students

[shankbear]

Plainly and simply....they are law breakers. Many are violent. We need to plug up the big hole in the boat called the border. Then we need to systematically start bailing the boat out. There is already a legal way to come into this country. If you have broken the law and done it any other way then you get out of here. It will encourage doing it the right way.

If we simply ignore this lawbreaking then why not every other law that has to do will maintaining order in this country. Take down the stop signs and speed limits. Make robbery, theft, rape, smuggling, assault and everything else OK. It is anarchy.

Bush and the supporters of the sham of amnesty were and are dead wrong.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Keith7
. i'm just saying our current immigrations policies are fine.. Really?

Have you been to an emergency room lately?

Oh, and the latest terrorism plot that was foiled...some of the terrorists came across our border from........


MEXICO!!!!

[Keith7]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Someone saying they are afraid of their jobs being taken, or afraid of how the system will be because of illegal immigrants is NOT saying the same thing as I am afraid of people from Mexico

Your taking what they said in general and trying to personalize it onto one race. Which makes for great one liners and emotional reactions, but has no validity in the argument

Well you may not be aware of this but most of the illegal immigrants people come across in Texas aren't coming from Canada

[Gobbler Fan]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
For everyone that thinks it's no big deal and that we just just accept illegal aliens into our country, then you should do the following:

1. Go to work.
2. When you get home and find a group of people in your home, don't panic.
3. I know they are trespassing, but all they needed was a little bit of food.
4. Let them incorporate into your family, because after all, all they want is an opportunity to make a little money. Let them do a few odds and ends around the house for you.
5. Make sure that you communicate in their native language. After all it would be insensitive to their culture to adapt to your language.
6. If they get sick, make sure that you take them to the doctor and make sure that you pay for it, seeing as how they can't afford it. After all, you make a good living.
7. You also get the foot the bill for their education. Consider it an honor to do so. Just think of the lives that your changing.
8. Make sure that the education is also in their native language so as not to offend.

See how much sense this makes? OK im cool with having an American with the capabilities to work but choosing not to do so just so I can pay for his kids schooling and Hospital care just because they were born in the USA. NOT !


Get over it 3/4 of the jobs these immigrants take are jobs Healthy Americans wont take just because they know they can sit at home all day and not have a care in world and have people like us pay for everything they want or need .

[Keith7]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Really?

Have you been to an emergency room lately?

ya I had to wait awhile but that was just because it was the Gainesville Hospital and they are always slow.. I never saw any illegals hiding out there tho??

[jason]

way to solve immigration:

flood lights every 100 yards, deer stand every 200 yards, equipped with a sharpshooter, sniper rifle, and a box of shells...

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Keith7
Well you may not be aware of this but most of the illegal immigrants people come across in Texas aren't coming from Canada

What is your point?

IF I say I am afraid of what will happen with social services because of illegal immigrants and EVERYONE of them is from Mexico...it in NO WAY means I am afraid of people from MExico..quit trying to change the meaning of the phrases to make someone who disagrees with your view out to be racist

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Gobbler Fan
OK im cool with having an American with the capabilities to work but choosing not to do so just so I can pay for his kids schooling and Hospital care just because they were born in the USA. NOT !
I agree. But that doesn't make what the illegals are doing any better now does it?

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
What is your point?

IF I say I am afraid of what will happen with social services because of illegal immigrants and EVERYONE of them is from Mexico...it in NO WAY means I am afraid of people from MExico..quit trying to change the meaning of the phrases to make someone who disagrees with your view out to be racist But that's the tactics that are put in use when you lose the argument.

[Keith7]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
What is your point?

IF I say I am afraid of what will happen with social services because of illegal immigrants and EVERYONE of them is from Mexico...it in NO WAY means I am afraid of people from MExico..quit trying to change the meaning of the phrases to make someone who disagrees with your view out to be racist

i'm not doing that I think you are just taking things the wrong way..

[Emerson1]

I saw a funny thing on Penn and Tellers Bullsh!t. They had a group of 6 mexicans build a small 20-30 foot section of fence that is standard for what is going up along the border. It took something like 8 hours to build. Then when they were done they split into 3 groups, 1 went over, 1 went under and 1 went through. With only some small cutters they all got past in under 10 minutes.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Keith7
ya I had to wait awhile but that was just because it was the Gainesville Hospital and they are always slow.. I never saw any illegals hiding out there tho?? If you don't think our heathcare system is being over-run because of illegals using ERs for primary care, then you are in denial. Go visit any ER in the Houston area.

[Emerson1]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
If you don't think our heathcare system is being over-run because of illegals using ERs for primary care, then you are in denial. Go visit any ER in the Houston area.
So all mexicans are here illegally now?

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Keith7
i'm not doing that I think you are just taking things the wrong way..


Dont be coy

all because people are afraid of people from Mexico..

That is what you said..That is framing it like people who are not for illegal immigrants in our country are "afraid of people from Mexico"

You did it on purpose and for a reason

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Keith7
i'm not doing that I think you are just taking things the wrong way..

I think all of yall can agree to disagree on this.

For myself, I don't really know how I feel about it.

I have to admit that I respect the illegal who comes over here and works and sends all the money home to his family WAY MORE than I do the perfectly healthy US citizen that sits in their subsidized homes and rapes me every day with Lone Star, Medicaid, etc.

For the record....I don't think either scenario above is RIGHT, but I think there is lesser of two evils too!

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Emerson1
I saw a funny thing on Penn and Tellers Bullsh!t. They had a group of 6 mexicans build a small 20-30 foot section of fence that is standard for what is going up along the border. It took something like 8 hours to build. Then when they were done they split into 3 groups, 1 went over, 1 went under and 1 went through. With only some small cutters they all got past in under 10 minutes.

That was a great show about the wall and i love their show in general

[shankbear]

Many hospitals in California have simply closed their ERs because of the losses due to illegal immigrant lawbreakers. The illegals knew enough to know that the ER couldn't turn them away even if they didn't have money. Smart decision by the hospitals that wanted to stay in business.

The burden of the lawbreakers financially is overwhelming.

[Keith7]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
If you don't think our heathcare system is being over-run because of illegals using ERs for primary care, then you are in denial. Go visit any ER in the Houston area.

read this article most illegals are paying taxes, social security, and medicare to cover their employers butts.. so why don't they deserve to be there??

[Gobbler Fan]

Immigration in America Most Americans place their pride in being apart of a country where a man can start at the bottom and work his way to the top. We also stress the fact that we are “all created equal” with “certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.” (Jefferson 45) During the early 1900s white Americans picked and chose who they saw fit to live in America and become an American. “Those that separate the desirable from the undesirable citizen or neighbor are individual rather than race.” (Abbott 307) In the 1900s the desired immigrant was one who spoke English and customs who were similar to ours. Whereas an undesirable was one whose “customs he (Americans) understood, whose language is quite unrelated to English, the American finds “strange” and even “suspicious”.” (Abbott 307) The biggest debate today would be what could the individual/race can contribute to the American economy. “The American is a new man, who acts upon new principles; he must therefore entertain new ideas and form new opinions.” (Crevecoeur 26) With Crevecoeur’s definition anyone with half of a brain could be an American. This statement is basically contradicted by everything that is American. American society only wants people that can contribute to our economy. For decades people in America were sure of two things concerning immigrants. They came for the opportunity to build a better life for their families and they would not seek nor would they accept a handout. The drive and attitude of immigrants who came to America during the nineteen twenties through the nineteen sixties built strong work ethics that created our now famous American melting pot. But for the past thirty years a runaway welfare state has poisoned our good intentions. Well meaning but misguided entitlement programs gave billions of dollars in free handouts to a deluge of new immigrants as the floodgates opened and annual immigration levels more than tripled. “An estimated 150,000 undocumented Mexican immigrants enter the United States each year. Their labor--in Florida orange groves, Georgia onion fields, Las Vegas hotels and Oregon nurseries-has filled growth in many parts of the American economy.” (Thompson A8) Even with all of their contributions they still have to sneak into America through isolated desert areas where they die by the hundreds each year from exposure to heat or cold. Two proposals have been written regarding Mexican migrant workers. Both would increase the number of guest workers; However one would allow immigrants with a certain number of years of agricultural service to apply for legal residency, while the other one will not allow the migrant workers to apply for residency nor does it call for any amnesty. But if you are a Canadian citizen coming into America you could past the borders with no problems. Why is that you ask? Mostly because Canadians do not want to come to America and live they are contempt with their own Country. Immigrants today are viewed as a bad thing simply because people are in fear of losing their jobs because immigrants will work for basically nothing without benefits and a union. Everyone knows that if they are allowed to come into the States and get jobs that they would be in danger of losing theirs. Many immigrants are cited as being “below the mental, moral, and physical average of both our country and their own.” (Hall 303) One man states that “more care was taken in the selection of the few cattle which were imported for breeding purposes in this same period than anyone thought of taking in the case of these millions of men and women and children.” (Ward 543) Ward continues to discuss the many problems with immigrations in the 1900s he says that there are “no officials, expert in diagnosing mental and physical defects, were sent aboard to pick out the fittest and most desirable aliens for introduction into this country, or even placed on board ship to pick them out in transit.”(Ward 543) Which makes you wonder what was actually more important to people back in the day, someone that would work for almost nothing or someone that was healthy. According to Ward the answer would be cheap labor. Things have not changed very much. Now there are people (Americans) who will actually go across borders and bring back Mexican immigrants/migrants to work on their farms, factories, etc. Just for the sake of “cheap labor.” Once many immigrants come to America they quickly assimilate our culture and customs. Not so much because they want to be like us, but because they want to be accepted by the majority which in the United States would be Anglo Saxons. “There is no doubt that we are absorbing the immigrant into our national life, but we are doing it with a reckless disregard of the suffering and the loss of idealism which our laissez-faire policy inevitably entails.” (Abbott 308) Many do things like change their names, dress style and most try to rid themselves of their accents. Doing these will in one way or the other make American people more comfortable with them, causing them to accept them not for who they really are but for who we want them to be. “This policy is as wrong in principle as it will always be unsuccessful in practice.” (Abbott 309) By allowing this to happen not only are we allowing people to lose their individuality but we are also destroy their culture and adapt to ours. Many of the customs that the immigrants could bring would form a valuable gift to our national life. Since the first European settlers set foot in North America, immigration has suffused the American experience. Indeed, many of the values that unite Americans as a nation are tied to immigration. Immigration has not only framed our vision of the U.S. role in the world, but has seeped into our view of human nature. The idealism surrounding immigration explains in large part the deep feelings it engenders in the public policy arena. In recent years, these sentiments have jostled with concerns about the economy, ethnic relations, social services, the environment, and other issues to recast the discourse on U.S. immigration policy. From 1980 to 1990, immigration law underwent a period of change comparable in importance to the reforms of 1965 and the early 1920s. At the same time, the debate over immigration has expanded to incorporate a broad range of foreign policy issues. The discussion now features arguments on U.S. relations with Latin America, human rights, international trade, and the worldwide refugee crisis. So what’s an American? The answer is your own to come to a conclusion on. But this is a fact an American cannot come from a piece a paper but better yet from what the individual contributes to the American Society as a whole. Whether its their culture, religion, or adding to our workforce. As far as the immigration policy goes the American government seems to be doing an okay job to me. But if they really want to be fair they should look at each case on an individual level. Not all Mexican migrants want food stamps or welfare, most just want a chance for a better life. For the American Government to stereotype a whole race because of a few people is completely wrong. I’m not saying let everyone in but on the same hand don’t turn everyone away. Because to be completely honest none of us are from here, every race that is in America now that is considered American, has contributed to the building of America; Therefore other races can only but add on to the good things that are happening in America


Immigration in America Term Paper I stumbled across.

[mustang04]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
everyone gets up in arms about illegal immigrants... Hello stupid, who do you think founded the country? The first "settlers" were land thieves who robbed and killed off Native Americans. Going back to the United States' infancy, illegal aliens are the ones who came over from Europe. So if we are going to start deporting... remember where you came from and how you got here... cause it damn sure wasn't legal if you aren't a Native American

no offense....but the indians werent from america either, they came over the land-bridge, so we just outright beat them out for the land because it was still up in the air for grabs to the rest of the world. thats how it was THEN

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Gobbler Fan
Immigration in America Most Americans place their pride in being apart of a country where a man can start at the bottom and work his way to the top. We also stress the fact that we are “all created equal” with “certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.” (Jefferson 45) During the early 1900s white Americans picked and chose who they saw fit to live in America and become an American. “Those that separate the desirable from the undesirable citizen or neighbor are individual rather than race.” (Abbott 307) In the 1900s the desired immigrant was one who spoke English and customs who were similar to ours. Whereas an undesirable was one whose “customs he (Americans) understood, whose language is quite unrelated to English, the American finds “strange” and even “suspicious”.” (Abbott 307) The biggest debate today would be what could the individual/race can contribute to the American economy. “The American is a new man, who acts upon new principles; he must therefore entertain new ideas and form new opinions.” (Crevecoeur 26) With Crevecoeur’s definition anyone with half of a brain could be an American. This statement is basically contradicted by everything that is American. American society only wants people that can contribute to our economy. For decades people in America were sure of two things concerning immigrants. They came for the opportunity to build a better life for their families and they would not seek nor would they accept a handout. The drive and attitude of immigrants who came to America during the nineteen twenties through the nineteen sixties built strong work ethics that created our now famous American melting pot. But for the past thirty years a runaway welfare state has poisoned our good intentions. Well meaning but misguided entitlement programs gave billions of dollars in free handouts to a deluge of new immigrants as the floodgates opened and annual immigration levels more than tripled. “An estimated 150,000 undocumented Mexican immigrants enter the United States each year. Their labor--in Florida orange groves, Georgia onion fields, Las Vegas hotels and Oregon nurseries-has filled growth in many parts of the American economy.” (Thompson A8) Even with all of their contributions they still have to sneak into America through isolated desert areas where they die by the hundreds each year from exposure to heat or cold. Two proposals have been written regarding Mexican migrant workers. Both would increase the number of guest workers; However one would allow immigrants with a certain number of years of agricultural service to apply for legal residency, while the other one will not allow the migrant workers to apply for residency nor does it call for any amnesty. But if you are a Canadian citizen coming into America you could past the borders with no problems. Why is that you ask? Mostly because Canadians do not want to come to America and live they are contempt with their own Country. Immigrants today are viewed as a bad thing simply because people are in fear of losing their jobs because immigrants will work for basically nothing without benefits and a union. Everyone knows that if they are allowed to come into the States and get jobs that they would be in danger of losing theirs. Many immigrants are cited as being “below the mental, moral, and physical average of both our country and their own.” (Hall 303) One man states that “more care was taken in the selection of the few cattle which were imported for breeding purposes in this same period than anyone thought of taking in the case of these millions of men and women and children.” (Ward 543) Ward continues to discuss the many problems with immigrations in the 1900s he says that there are “no officials, expert in diagnosing mental and physical defects, were sent aboard to pick out the fittest and most desirable aliens for introduction into this country, or even placed on board ship to pick them out in transit.”(Ward 543) Which makes you wonder what was actually more important to people back in the day, someone that would work for almost nothing or someone that was healthy. According to Ward the answer would be cheap labor. Things have not changed very much. Now there are people (Americans) who will actually go across borders and bring back Mexican immigrants/migrants to work on their farms, factories, etc. Just for the sake of “cheap labor.” Once many immigrants come to America they quickly assimilate our culture and customs. Not so much because they want to be like us, but because they want to be accepted by the majority which in the United States would be Anglo Saxons. “There is no doubt that we are absorbing the immigrant into our national life, but we are doing it with a reckless disregard of the suffering and the loss of idealism which our laissez-faire policy inevitably entails.” (Abbott 308) Many do things like change their names, dress style and most try to rid themselves of their accents. Doing these will in one way or the other make American people more comfortable with them, causing them to accept them not for who they really are but for who we want them to be. “This policy is as wrong in principle as it will always be unsuccessful in practice.” (Abbott 309) By allowing this to happen not only are we allowing people to lose their individuality but we are also destroy their culture and adapt to ours. Many of the customs that the immigrants could bring would form a valuable gift to our national life. Since the first European settlers set foot in North America, immigration has suffused the American experience. Indeed, many of the values that unite Americans as a nation are tied to immigration. Immigration has not only framed our vision of the U.S. role in the world, but has seeped into our view of human nature. The idealism surrounding immigration explains in large part the deep feelings it engenders in the public policy arena. In recent years, these sentiments have jostled with concerns about the economy, ethnic relations, social services, the environment, and other issues to recast the discourse on U.S. immigration policy. From 1980 to 1990, immigration law underwent a period of change comparable in importance to the reforms of 1965 and the early 1920s. At the same time, the debate over immigration has expanded to incorporate a broad range of foreign policy issues. The discussion now features arguments on U.S. relations with Latin America, human rights, international trade, and the worldwide refugee crisis. So what’s an American? The answer is your own to come to a conclusion on. But this is a fact an American cannot come from a piece a paper but better yet from what the individual contributes to the American Society as a whole. Whether its their culture, religion, or adding to our workforce. As far as the immigration policy goes the American government seems to be doing an okay job to me. But if they really want to be fair they should look at each case on an individual level. Not all Mexican migrants want food stamps or welfare, most just want a chance for a better life. For the American Government to stereotype a whole race because of a few people is completely wrong. I’m not saying let everyone in but on the same hand don’t turn everyone away. Because to be completely honest none of us are from here, every race that is in America now that is considered American, has contributed to the building of America; Therefore other races can only but add on to the good things that are happening in America


Immigration in America Term Paper I stumbled across.

WOW!! Too many words for me!!

Can I get the Readers Digest condensed version please??:p

[DDBooger]

you know im not a fan of illegals. but i can't help but believe there is always more to this than thought, for instance, if they are given amnesty, more than likely one side gets an additional group of voters! now the other side may trump up a bunch of fears and drive the 21st century version of the mid 1800s xenophobic attitudes and voila! i know this, the first time someone tells me to go back im splitting someones face open!:mad: :D (yes I was born here) on the other hand, most countries regulate who come in to their country and have strict guidelines in order to assure they are not taking in people who will not be self-sufficient and can contribute to society.

Plain and simple, I agree with not allowing amnesty, but some mask xenophobic and racial feelings of superiority through these measures. :mad: i hate having to stand next to THAT guy! but I believe we are already models of inefficiency, last thing we need is to add more weight to this inbalanced govt.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by DDBooger
on the other hand, most countries regulate who come in to their country and have strict guidelines in order to assure they are not taking in people who will not be self-sufficient and can contribute to society.
:clap: :clap: THANK YOU!!!!!!! But when the US even mentions regulation, well.....you end up with a thread on here that's eleventy-three pages. ;)

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Emerson1
So all mexicans are here illegally now? Nobody said that or implied that.:rolleyes:

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Keith7
read this article most illegals are paying taxes, social security, and medicare to cover their employers butts.. so why don't they deserve to be there?? Notice that the article gives no statistics to back up that claim. It just makes a statement.

And to answer you question, no. I don't think they deserve any benefits if they came here illegally. That's like saying I trespassed on to your land, picked some vegetables and then wanted to sell them. I would have no right to sell those vegetables because I broke the law in acquiring them.

Why can't people grasp the concept of "illegal"?

[shankbear]

They need to have a freakin revolution in Mexico. Kick out the scum that makes it where the U.S. is their #1 option . Set realistic numbers for LEGAL immigration and make the law mean something.

[charlesrixey]

Originally posted by piratebg
5). No political/religious topics.
Political topics involving American political parties and their current candidates for office (or those already elected) and religious topics are forbidden. Both of these generally invoke problems and sometimes cause hard feelings.


Shouldnt it say No political party/religious topics instead because immigration is a big political issue right now.


no, because 89% of us hate the government's attempt to try and legalize illegal aliens

that is not based on party lines, i assure you


this problem shouldn't be political, it should be societal

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by charlesrixey
no, because 89% of us hate the government's attempt to try and legalize illegal aliens

that is not based on party lines, i assure you


this problem shouldn't be political, it should be societal

Exactly!!