Run or Pass in 3a?

[Pudlugger]

In 3a you have about 80-100 boys who's momma's will let them play football. So how do you build a championship team? Well, in most cases you look for that kid that is the natural athlete and build around him. If you come from a school that has an endless supply of talent that defies the laws of thermodynamics, like Celina for example, then you just run the same scheme year in and year out and rely on a broad spectrum of talent like 5a schools do. For the rest of us you have to either go with a running type offense like LH and Giddings or the wide open spread offense that Marlin who has done so well in 3a and now 2a with enrollment in the 400's.
Personally with the small enrollment schools, I think the running offenses work best. You can cultivate it better with big boys up front and a handful of good athletes to make it work. The spread requires at the minimum three outstanding athletes, a threat at qb in the run and with a strong arm, a quality receiver with blazing speed and good hands and a rb that can break away from a handoff without any forward momentum. Of course the O line has to be dominant in both sets but with the spread they need to be able to block from the passing set and hold the blocks longer. o lineman in running sets work more stunts and only need to open holes for a moment to break the runner free. It is a completely different culture.

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
In 3a you have about 80-100 boys who's momma's will let them play football. So how do you build a championship team? Well, in most cases you look for that kid that is the natural athlete and build around him. If you come from a school that has an endless supply of talent that defies the laws of thermodynamics, like Celina for example, then you just run the same scheme year in and year out and rely on a broad spectrum of talent like 5a schools do. For the rest of us you have to either go with a running type offense like LH and Giddings or the wide open spread offense that Marlin who has done so well in 3a and now 2a with enrollment in the 400's.
Personally with the small enrollment schools, I think the running offenses work best. You can cultivate it better with big boys up front and a handful of good athletes to make it work. The spread requires at the minimum three outstanding athletes, a threat at qb in the run and with a strong arm, a quality receiver with blazing speed and good hands and a rb that can break away from a handoff without any forward momentum. Of course the O line has to be dominant in both sets but with the spread they need to be able to block from the passing set and hold the blocks longer. o lineman in running sets work more stunts and only need to open holes for a moment to break the runner free. It is a completely different culture.

i saw a QB throw for a LOT of yards this year with 4 receivers that were JV'ers last year, two of them JV'ers as Juniors. One of them was in the top 5 in the state in receiving an ran in the 4.7s. I know the offense is called the Spread offense but there is SO MUCh that you can do in the spread. The Spread doesn't automatically mean 4 or five wide receivers. Ive seen teams line up in ]spread formations and run right down the defenses throat

[fireman1]

so which one will work best if you dont have big linemen?

[mustang04]

Originally posted by fireman1
so which one will work best if you dont have big linemen?

our avg. line size was about 180-190 lbs when i was a senior....we ran and passed

[No Show Jones]

Originally posted by fireman1
so which one will work best if you dont have big linemen? It's not the size of the dog in the fight. It is the size of the fight in the dog. ;)

[mustang04]

Originally posted by No Show Jones
It's not the size of the dog in the fight. It is the size of the fight in the dog. ;)

exactly....there are smaller lineman that are more explosive and powerful than some HUGE blobs....plus it's good to have a lineman that is fast enough to pull and take someones head off:)

[No Show Jones]

The only thing larger lineman has is arm length unless you have monkey's as lineman. Arm length makes up for lack of strength in bigger lineman.

[LH Panther Mom]

We've had a couple of linemen who have moved to the backfield the next season and had much success. Anyone who has seen us play can attest to the fact that for the most part, we don't have big OL-men. My son's comment last summer was he didn't care how big any DL guy was he was up against, only how strong they were.

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Anyone who has seen us play can attest to the fact that for the most part, we don't have big OL-men. My son's comment last summer was he didn't care how big any DL guy was he was up against, only how strong they were.

no, y'all don't have big linemen... 'cept for your son, which is why he doesn't care how big any DL guy is because he is most-likely going to be bigger...

my prediction? in 7 years LHPM will be rich with an NFL player for a son...

[vet93]

Large lineman work well in the spread because they can take up space and make it more difficult to reach the passer (providing their technique is good and they move their feet). However you dont have to have large lineman to run the spread...just well coached lineman. In regards to size of lineman in a running offense...it depends what type of running offense you have. If the offense is built around misdirection, pulling guards and giving lineman angles in which to move people, then the best lineman are strong quick lineman. If you have an offense that employs a more smashmouth type of scheme, where you zoneblock and just line up body to body and move people, then size can be a great advantage. Of course, size is only advantage if you have strength and proper technique, otherwise you just have a bunch of blobs lumbering around out there.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by vet93
Of course, size is only advantage if you have strength and proper technique, otherwise you just have a bunch of blobs lumbering around out there.
:clap: :clap: You have a way with words. :D

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by vet93
Large lineman work well in the spread because they can take up space and make it more difficult to reach the passer (providing their technique is good and they move their feet). However you dont have to have large lineman to run the spread...just well coached lineman. In regards to size of lineman in a running offense...it depends what type of running offense you have. If the offense is built around misdirection, pulling guards and giving lineman angles in which to move people, then the best lineman are strong quick lineman. If you have an offense that employs a more smashmouth type of scheme, where you zoneblock and just line up body to body and move people, then size can be a great advantage. Of course, size is only advantage if you have strength and proper technique, otherwise you just have a bunch of blobs lumbering around out there.

:clap: Nice. I could comment further about some situations, but then my momma would be upset with me. ;)

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
my prediction? in 7 years LHPM will be rich with an NFL player for a son...
LOL! I don't know about that. ;)

[pooch]

Originally posted by fireman1
so which one will work best if you dont have big linemen?

the veer

[Matthew328]

If you have some smaller quicker lineman then you can either run a spread offense based on a short passing game based on the QB getting rid of the ball quickly using lots of bubble screens, slip screens etc......OR you can run the WIng-T or a version of that

bigger stronger offensive lines allow you to be more of a smash mouth team and run lots of power stuff, more leads etc OR as a spread team you have the opprotunity to be more of a vertical passing team because your lineman may allow the QB to stay in the pocket more and make more downfield throws

now if you have small, slow and not very strong lineman I suggest you find another school to watch because you'll probably be 0-10

[No Show Jones]

Originally posted by Matthew328


now if you have small, slow and not very strong lineman I suggest you find another school to watch because you'll probably be 0-10 That right there is funny!

[rancher]

Very true what was written about the spread. But one important factor was missing. You must have a center that can snap the ball back with velocity. I have seen time after time, the center snap the ball back and it took for ever to get to the quarterback. This resulted in a real advantage for the defense. Also the center must be accurate with his snaps. My way of thinking, give me quick lineman, big or small ans you will win.

[Diocletian]

if your a fan over 50- run
if your a fan under 50- pass
if your a coach- run
if your a player- pass
if your a parent- just show up


that's my opinion anyway

[lostaussie]

pass until your arm is tired and then pass some more:thumbsup:

[Darren]

I think (based on Giddings last year) that you have to at least have the threat of passing.

If you have a great run game and are able to pass 3-5 times a game to keep the defense honest then you can be a great team in 3a football.

[kaorder1999]

when you run the spread you can be very successul with small lineman. (especially when you are a zone team) As a DC I would much rather gameplan against a team with big slower lineman. I can take advantage of that.

[Uncle Buck]

You really need to be able to do both.

It really comes down to being consistant from one year to the next so that your players, by the time they are 11th and 12th graders know what they are doing. If you change your offense or defense every year that makes it more of a challenge and increases the learning period.

[kaorder1999]

honestly, to be successful you run the ball and then throw the ball when the defense allows. Most of the passing games, similar to the Texas Tech passing game, is just a glorified version of the running game. They are mostly quick screens and sideline to sideline passing games. Mostly, its a way to run the toss sweep without having a great running back. Of course some do test the vertical routes but that is rare.

[BILLYFRED0000]

I go with the both syndrome. I think last year our weakness was we did not have a good deep threat or consistant receivers and our QB was a little inexperienced in the passing game as well. We tried to run more than we should have. That being said, Celina typically runs 65 percent of the time but you still should throw well that 30 to 35 percent. We were ok last year on the pass. The only really good passing game was against Brownsboro but we started Dru because Seth was banged up. He can throw the rock and ain't afraid to try. I still wish coach would have started him. But Coach Ford had him as the Defensive QB at safety and that was a good call as well as I do not know who will replace him this year.

[LH Panther Mom]

IMO, if you do what you do "well", it doesn't matter what offense you're in. :)

[Pudlugger]

Would someone comment on my point about the limitations in the size of the talent pool in 3a as opposed to the larger classifications and how that determines the type of offense. When you have 300 boys in school, minus those with grade problems and those who don't want or can't play football you get about 70-100 kids total for freshman jv and varsity ball. In 5a you have 1000 + boys in the mix and the talent runs deep which allows a different approach to offense, particularly as to the passing game and "balanced' offenses like Billyfred0000 from Celina reports. This is a core issue in the small divisions and IMO makes 3a a very interesting and dynamic classification and a real challenge for the coaches..

[Fotbol]

I think schools like Mart, Marlin, Bellville, La Grange don't really run into that problem, the Talent is present with the few kids that comes out, the only thing is the freshman and JV teams are depleted bye the time the varsity gets the picks.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
Would someone comment on my point about the limitations in the size of the talent pool in 3a as opposed to the larger classifications and how that determines the type of offense. When you have 300 boys in school, minus those with grade problems and those who don't want or can't play football you get about 70-100 kids total for freshman jv and varsity ball. In 5a you have 1000 + boys in the mix and the talent runs deep which allows a different approach to offense, particularly as to the passing game and "balanced' offenses like Billyfred0000 from Celina reports. This is a core issue in the small divisions and IMO makes 3a a very interesting and dynamic classification and a real challenge for the coaches.. I can only comment on "us". Our offense was determined by Coach Vance as that's what he knows best. It's never been about our talent pool, but it does fit our kids quite well. And looking at the upcoming freshman class, we may have 135-150 out for football. :eek:

Again, JMO, but if a coach tries to "fit" an offense to the talent pool each and every year, there's no consistency through the grades and the kids might never get comfortable with their "jobs".

[TarponFanInNorthTexas]

Who did Coach Vance learn the Slot-T from?

Not sure if it was Bruce Bush, or Tony Villarreal. Not very many teams run the Slot-T anymore.

[STANG RED]

Originally posted by Darren
I think (based on Giddings last year) that you have to at least have the threat of passing.

If you have a great run game and are able to pass 3-5 times a game to keep the defense honest then you can be a great team in 3a football.

I agree completely. Ive seen it happen to Sweetwater every year. No matter how dynamic our running game was, you always end up coming up against a D that can shut it down. You have to at least be able to pass enough to keep them honest. You can have the greatest running backs in the world, and still get shut down against 8 and 9 men fronts. Burn em a few times with some simple play action passes, and they'll back off. At least get it into their heads, that you can and will do it if they dont stay honest.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by TarponFanInNorthTexas
Who did Coach Vance learn the Slot-T from?

Not sure if it was Bruce Bush, or Tony Villarreal. Not very many teams run the Slot-T anymore.
I'm pretty sure it was Bruce Bush, but not sure when. I seem to remember they coached together in Dimmit back in 75 or 76, but don't quote me on the year. I don't have a clue what offense they ran there.

[TarponFanInNorthTexas]

Bruce Bush was the one that taught the Slot-T to Tony Villarreal who was my coach when I played at Port Isabel. So I figured it was Bush, but I wasn't sure.

There are still several coaches on the PI coaching staff that know the Slot-T offense inside and out. If Liberty Hill ever played Port Isabel again, LH would have to do some tweaks to their offense as to not telegraph the play they're going to run. ;)

Yes, even people in the stands could tell what play was coming during the game back in 2003. :D

[Uncle Buck]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
Would someone comment on my point about the limitations in the size of the talent pool in 3a as opposed to the larger classifications and how that determines the type of offense. When you have 300 boys in school, minus those with grade problems and those who don't want or can't play football you get about 70-100 kids total for freshman jv and varsity ball. In 5a you have 1000 + boys in the mix and the talent runs deep which allows a different approach to offense, particularly as to the passing game and "balanced' offenses like Billyfred0000 from Celina reports. This is a core issue in the small divisions and IMO makes 3a a very interesting and dynamic classification and a real challenge for the coaches..


3 things

1. Keep it Simple
2. Stay consistant throughout your program, 7th grade-12th.
3. Keep it Simple

and your right the more limited the talent pool the harder it is.

[kepdawg]

Originally posted by Diocletian
if your a fan over 50- run
if your a fan under 50- pass
if your a coach- run
if your a player- pass
if your a parent- just show up


that's my opinion anyway

I'm nowhere close to 50 and I say run, run, run!

[Snydertigersrul]

Originally posted by kepdawg
I'm nowhere close to 50 and I say run, run, run!


I agree with Darrell Royal, three things happen when you pass and two of them are bad. RUN THE BALL.

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by Fotbol
I think schools like Mart, Marlin, Bellville, La Grange don't really run into that problem, the Talent is present with the few kids that comes out, the only thing is the freshman and JV teams are depleted bye the time the varsity gets the picks.

This is true especially in the smaller schools with enrollment below 500. Bellville has around 750 and they have consistantly fielded excellent sub-varsity teams in the past decade. La Grange's enrollment has dropped from a high of 650 in 2002 to around 550 now. I don't know why this is so but it has been a factor in the depth of talent in the past few seasons.

I agree that teams with small enrollment should run as simple a scheme as possible consistently from 7th grade up. I think that the running game works best for most teams with 30-35 varsity players like La Grange and Giddings, but you definately need to keep the D honest with the passing game too. Short routes over the middle or into the flat, play action passes and triple option plays work well.

Some schools have abundant speed and athleticism and even though small in enrollment always seem to field great teams. Mart, Newton, Celina and Marlin come to mind here. It has to do with the traditions of the community and the value they place on the game imo. Young boys dream of playing football and parents encourage them to compete.

[VWG]

You have to have a balanced attack in my opinion... or at least keep the defense honest. Take a look at WF Rider. Ponder has them going from the shotgun every snap, but he runs more than he passes. Stephenville runs the spread but they throw the ball more than they will run it.
Mineral Wells and Bourquin, runs the veer until it kills you... or the defense kills it like most games last year.
Have an attack that will keep the defense honest. Don't let the defense just sit back and put 8-9 in the box if you're a running team. Call play action, bootleg, or TE drag pattern.
If you run the spread, run the quick option, bubble screens, QB draw, etc.....

[Diocletian]

I honestly think talent will generate to which ever style your school is running....... seems as though time and time again the same schools are beating down others with the same tactics and using almost the same type of football.

In middle school the kids are practicing to be good enough to fit into the current system running by the Varsity, so they adapt to either run or pass.

[charlesrixey]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
This is true especially in the smaller schools with enrollment below 500. Bellville has around 750 and they have consistantly fielded excellent sub-varsity teams in the past decade. La Grange's enrollment has dropped from a high of 650 in 2002 to around 550 now. I don't know why this is so but it has been a factor in the depth of talent in the past few seasons.

I agree that teams with small enrollment should run as simple a scheme as possible consistently from 7th grade up. I think that the running game works best for most teams with 30-35 varsity players like La Grange and Giddings, but you definately need to keep the D honest with the passing game too. Short routes over the middle or into the flat, play action passes and triple option plays work well.

Some schools have abundant speed and athleticism and even though small in enrollment always seem to field great teams. Mart, Newton, Celina and Marlin come to mind here. It has to do with the traditions of the community and the value they place on the game imo. Young boys dream of playing football and parents encourage them to compete.

i agree

having a top-to-bottom program that is the same at every level is huge. Celina doesn't always have the most talent, and certainly talent can't provide you a 190-19 record alone (since 1992).

In the years where talent is harder to come by, strong support and drive within the athletic department keeps it going, and in the years when everything comes together, you win the most.

Celina has a 46-4 record in the 3 years it has been in 3A so far, despite being either the smallest (in 2002-2003) or pretty close to it (last year) in all of 3A. So size doesn't always matter, but it helps when 85% of all males in the school sign up to play football

when i was a student in celina, one year we had 300 students, and assuming that half were male, we had something on the order of 115 playing jv or varsity football
that's the plus side of having a community steeped in football tradition

[piratebg]

Does anyone know what kind of offense Sinton will be running this year?

[mac77]

Does it really matter what kind of offense one runs? If you don't have the defense to stop the other team it means nothing. If ya keep'm at 0, then you should be able to win. We tend to put our best 11 on "D" and if we have to go both ways then so be it. LH's success is driven by defense, SLC fields dominating defenses, just some examples.

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by mac77
Does it really matter what kind of offense one runs? If you don't have the defense to stop the other team it means nothing. If ya keep'm at 0, then you should be able to win. We tend to put our best 11 on "D" and if we have to go both ways then so be it.

Conventional wisdom has always been that offense wins games but defense wins championships. I think that means that without a good O to put up enough points and control the football even the best D's will not bring it home. Usually if the O hasn't gotten more than 10 first downs or 20 minutes of possession the team is cooked by the late 4th quarter. The exception is in big plays, turnover ratios and special teams when the winning team has much less in the time of possession or number of first downs columns.

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by mac77
Does it really matter what kind of offense one runs? If you don't have the defense to stop the other team it means nothing. If ya keep'm at 0, then you should be able to win. We tend to put our best 11 on "D" and if we have to go both ways then so be it. LH's success is driven by defense, SLC fields dominating defenses, just some examples.

LH and SLC put up some monster points on O. How successful would they be if they only scored 7 or 10 points per game? You need a productive O and ball control to win. Ball control is a product of both offense (first downs) and defense (stops).

[Tx Challenge]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
I can only comment on "us". Our offense was determined by Coach Vance as that's what he knows best. It's never been about our talent pool, but it does fit our kids quite well. And looking at the upcoming freshman class, we may have 135-150 out for football. :eek:

Again, JMO, but if a coach tries to "fit" an offense to the talent pool each and every year, there's no consistency through the grades and the kids might never get comfortable with their "jobs".

:clap: :clap: :clap: Deb, I agree, Our offensive line is the key. If they do their job, we will execute I should know:D :D It is up to the coaches to "teach" the offense, it is a program, the rest will fall in to place...........

[GreenMonster]

pound the rock

[mac77]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
LH and SLC put up some monster points on O. How successful would they be if they only scored 7 or 10 points per game? You need a productive O and ball control to win. Ball control is a product of both offense (first downs) and defense (stops).
My point exactly! They couldn't run two more different offenses if they tried. The constant with all great teams is good defense!

[Haunta Yo]

If your offense gets 8 hours of practice time a week, you can develop the details of a sound option passing game. If your only practicing 4 hours of offense a week, better bank on the running game.

I believe this is one of the reasons Coach Dodge had a hard time at Cameron Yoe and was successful at SLC. Most 3A's only get 4 hours of offense a week since they don't two-platoon.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by Pudlugger
Would someone comment on my point about the limitations in the size of the talent pool in 3a as opposed to the larger classifications and how that determines the type of offense. When you have 300 boys in school, minus those with grade problems and those who don't want or can't play football you get about 70-100 kids total for freshman jv and varsity ball. In 5a you have 1000 + boys in the mix and the talent runs deep which allows a different approach to offense, particularly as to the passing game and "balanced' offenses like Billyfred0000 from Celina reports. This is a core issue in the small divisions and IMO makes 3a a very interesting and dynamic classification and a real challenge for the coaches..

I think I agree with you on the 2a level. But in 3a you have enough students that you should be able to run a passing game of some sort even if it is limited. Our offense is basically the same one we have been running and we have had years where we could throw more than we did last year. That being said, it comes down to coaching and systems IMHO. Celina runs the same basic system from middleschool on and even the Pee Wee teams run the stripped down version with no passing. By the time they get to highschool it comes down to picking the guys that have responded well to the coaching and applied themselves. If you are one dimensional against an equally talented team you are 5050 to lose. Ask LH. We made a game of it Their D just got a couple of more stops and that was really the key. 22 points was their season low. They did throw the ball a little but probably only 5 percent of the time. Of course one of the reasons why we can throw is we have a disproportionately higher rate of participation. I have not talked to Coach Ford this year but I hear we are still expecting 140 or 150 boys for two a days.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
If you are one dimensional against an equally talented team you are 5050 to lose. Ask LH. We made a game of it Their D just got a couple of more stops and that was really the key. 22 points was their season low. They did throw the ball a little but probably only 5 percent of the time. Ask us what? What the final score was? I'm pretty certain there are few, if any, people on here that would be surprised at our passing percentage. :rolleyes: Sorry, but as long as a teams' offense scores more points than their defense allows the other team to score, does it really what the "point total" is in the end and does it matter what the offensive scheme is?

[mac77]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
[B Their D just got a couple of more stops and that was really the key. [/B]


Bingo!!!!!!!!

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Ask us what? What the final score was? I'm pretty certain there are few, if any, people on here that would be surprised at our passing percentage. :rolleyes: Sorry, but as long as a teams' offense scores more points than their defense allows the other team to score, does it really what the "point total" is in the end and does it matter what the offensive scheme is?

Yes mom but in the end it was the defense that detemined the outcome of this game. All along my projection was that we had to score more than 21 points to win. I believed that we would hold you to 21 (22 as it turned out) and then it would be a defensive issue for your team. In the end it was the defenses that set the tempo for the game. Both offenses moved the ball some but the D's got the stops they needed. In the end it was a very strong game and your D is the reason you won.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by BILLYFRED0000
Yes mom but in the end it was the defense that detemined the outcome of this game. All along my projection was that we had to score more than 21 points to win. I believed that we would hold you to 21 (22 as it turned out) and then it would be a defensive issue for your team. In the end it was the defenses that set the tempo for the game. Both offenses moved the ball some but the D's got the stops they needed. In the end it was a very strong game and your D is the reason you won.
Yeah, well, in the end more points SCORED than given up=win. :)
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8456/scoreboard2un2.jpg

[pooch]

i'm still running.

[BILLYFRED0000]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
Yeah, well, in the end more points SCORED than given up=win. :)
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8456/scoreboard2un2.jpg

I still think that was one of the best games I ever saw..... It was fun watching and while not exactly fun losing, I would rather lose to a great team than get there and get blown out. Cause there is no mistaking the fact that reg III was toughest last year. Our side of the bracket was easier and we still "belonged" in the final because we played you as well as anybody did all year..... And ya'll definetly improved from the beginning of the year on....

[Mot'r Boat'r]

i say pass while on the run...usually a good strategy:D