Rank the top five (or ten, whichever you prefer) NBA players

[big daddy russ]

Who do you have?

[kaorder1999]

My Opinion

1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Nash
4. Duncan
5. D. Wade

[Fal44]

1.Kobe
2.Duncan
3.Nash
4.Lebron
5.Wade
6. KG
7.Stoudmaire
8.Dirk
9.Baron Davis
10.T-Mac

[Darren]

Currently

1.Duncan
2.Kobe
3.Nash
4.Lebron
5.Dirk
6.Wade
7.Baron Davis
8.Jermaine O'Neal
9.Stoudmaire
10.Deron Williams (spelling) Only because of what I saw in the playoffs

[eagles_victory]

1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Nash
4. Duncan
5. D Wade
6. Jason Kidd
7. KG
8. Gilbert Arenas
9. T- Mac
10. Allen Iverson

Honorable Mention: Carmelo, Boozer, Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Dirk

[Old Tiger]

Lebron
Duncan
Nash
Kobe
Jason Kidd

[luvhoops34]

1. Tim Duncan

2. Steve Nash

3. Alan Iverson

4. Kobe Bryant

5. Shaq

[Macarthur]

Kobe
Duncan
Lebron
Wade
Dirk

[TMer25]

Kobe
LeBron
Duncan
Nash
Wade
Kidd
Deron Williams- The only Jazz player that constantly showed up against the Spurs

[Gp83]

1.Kobe
2.Duncan
3.Nash
4.Lebron
5.Wade

[DDBooger]

Bryant
James
Duncan
Wade
Nash

[Macarthur]

I know this is everyone's opinion, but let me ask you Nash guys a question:

If you were starting a team today, would you honestly take him ahead of Labron, Kobe, Duncan or Wade as some of you have?

[Gp83]

Originally posted by Macarthur
I know this is everyone's opinion, but let me ask you Nash guys a question:

If you were starting a team today, would you honestly take him ahead of Labron, Kobe, Duncan or Wade as some of you have?
Nope

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by Gp83
Nope

Then why did you list him above Labron & Wade?

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Macarthur
I know this is everyone's opinion, but let me ask you Nash guys a question:

If you were starting a team today, would you honestly take him ahead of Labron, Kobe, Duncan or Wade as some of you have?
It depends. If you want to build a team for the long haul, then no. But if we're just talking about winning this year, this is where I'd put Nash.

Above Wade? Definitely.

LeBron? That's a toughie. They're both neck-and-neck, but you could make cases for both of them.

Kobe or Duncan? Hell no. Those two are clearly the best players in the NBA today. There hasn't been as well-defined a gap between the truly elites and the rest of the pack, at least in my opinion, since the late-90's when only Jordan stood at the top. Before that, you'd have to go back to the mid- to late-80's, back when Jordan and Isaiah were still coming up, Abdul-Jabbar and Dr. J were on the downside of their careers, and Magic and Bird were saving the NBA.


Here are my rankings, along with the tiers these players are in. Again, this is just one man's opinion, so feel free to tear it apart. Promise I won't cry.

TOP TIER (Best players in the league, and the gap's bigger than most people realize. Single-handedly carry their teams on both ends of the court, can dominate games anytime they wish against anyone they want to.)
1a. Duncan
1b. Kobe

SECOND TIER (Or tier 1A. These guys can also single-handedly carry their teams and dominate anytime they want, just not to the degree of Duncan or Kobe. That performance by LBJ last night? Check out Kobe's entire series against the Suns in last year's playoffs. That was a single superstar against a better team than this Pistons' squad. And that's the thing that separates these guys from the other two.)
3. Dirk
4. LeBron (If he made this run in the Western Conference, I'd be hard-pressed not to put him just under Kobe and Duncan. As it is, he may pass up Dirk sometime in the next 36 hours and he'll be in the top tier within two or three years.)
5. Nash

THIRD TIER (Can absolutely dominate games in a way very few other NBAers can, but can't seem to translate those dominant performances into wins. Still, they could single-handedly make Witchita State an NBA playoff contender.)
6. McGrady (yes, T-Mac)
7. KG
8. Jason Kidd
9. Dwayne Wade
10. Baron Davis

Honorable mention: Chauncey Billups, Shaquille O'Neal, Yao Ming, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Paul Pierce, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Elton Brand, Carmelo Anthony, Deron Williams

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
It depends. If you want to build a team for the long haul, then no. But if we're just talking about winning this year, this is where I'd put Nash.

Above Wade? Definitely.

I still think that's crazy. Did you see what SA did to Nash? Bowen shut him down as the series went on. He just wore him down.


LeBron? That's a toughie. They're both neck-and-neck, but you could make cases for both of them.


I can't even believe you would even consider this, especially after last night.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Macarthur
I still think that's crazy. Did you see what SA did to Nash? Bowen shut him down as the series went on. He just wore him down.
As of right now, this is my opinion of Dwayne Wade: the most overrated player in the league.

Where was he this year when Shaq was out and his team needed him? Sure, he got injured too, but only for a while. If he can't carry a team through the Eastern Conference by himself, he doesn't belong in this discussion.

This is for the truly elite players-- the guys who can carry a team on their back no matter the circumstances.

What I think of D-Wade is that he's a special talent, a once-every-two-years type of player. He gets to the rim as well as anyone in the league (including Kobe and LBJ) and has worked on his mid-range jumper to where it's become an effective weapon. Though he'll never be a PG, he's also great at penetrating and finding the open man when the defense collapses, but he has no long range game and can't seem to carry his team without the help of a healthy Shaq.

Granted, Jordan's jumper extended out to about three feet when he entered the league, so I can't hold that against Wade too much, but all I've seen is a guy who's a special talent, can score 27+ ppg, and who got hot for two months last summer, but can't keep it up over the long haul.

Basically, I see Tracy McGrady with a different skill set. The game comes easy to both, but winning games CONSISTENTLY doesn't.


Originally posted by Macarthur
I can't even believe you would even consider this, especially after last night.
Yeah, I'd consider it. It's going to take a lot more than a run through the Eastern Conference Playoffs to convince me that he's clearly better than Nash. Nash makes his team... whichever team that may be... an immediate playoff team.

Hell, he could bring Boston over to the Western Conference and turn them into a playoff squad. That's basically what he did to Phoenix.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
[B]As of right now, this is my opinion of Dwayne Wade: the most overrated player in the league.

Where was he this year when Shaq was out and his team needed him? Sure, he got injured too, but only for a while. If he can't carry a team through the Eastern Conference by himself, he doesn't belong in this discussion.

But you're holding him to a standard that you refuse to hold Nash. Nash hasn't been able to carry his team even when they are healthy.



This is for the truly elite players-- the guys who can carry a team on their back no matter the circumstances.

And what has Nash done?



What I think of D-Wade is that he's a special talent, a once-every-two-years type of player. He gets to the rim as well as anyone in the league (including Kobe and LBJ) and has worked on his mid-range jumper to where it's become an effective weapon. Though he'll never be a PG, he's also great at penetrating and finding the open man when the defense collapses, but he has no long range game and can't seem to carry his team without the help of a healthy Shaq.

Again, based on your description, he's pretty elite. That team has lots of issues this year. I think it's unfair to pin all of this year on Wade.

And tell me how Nash has carried his team...If I'm not mistaken, Wade does have a ring. Nash can't even get to the finals.





Yeah, I'd consider it. It's going to take a lot more than a run through the Eastern Conference Playoffs to convince me that he's clearly better than Nash. Nash makes his team... whichever team that may be... an immediate playoff team.

Nash has tons more talent around him than Lebron does. I'm sorry Nash is clearly a notch below Lebron.



Hell, he could bring Boston over to the Western Conference and turn them into a playoff squad. That's basically what he did to Phoenix.

PHeonix was a good team before he got there. He made them better, but again, how many finals has Nash taken his team?

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Macarthur
But you're holding him to a standard that you refuse to hold Nash. Nash hasn't been able to carry his team even when they are healthy.
Come again???


Originally posted by Macarthur
And what has Nash done?
Two straight MVP's. Turned a 29-win team into a 62-win team.




Originally posted by Macarthur
Again, based on your description, he's pretty elite. That team has lots of issues this year. I think it's unfair to pin all of this year on Wade.
No, it's not, but if he wants to be in the same company as LBJ, Dirk, Nash, Kobe and Duncan that's just the way it is. The Spurs (most notably Duncan) were very banged up last year. They still took the Mavs to seven in the WCF.

Kobe has nobody around him, but the Lakers are still competitive.

As soon as Wade shows me that he can make his team competitive without that guy in the middle to draw the defense in, then I'll put him ahead of Nash. That hasn't happened yet.




Originally posted by Macarthur
And tell me how Nash has carried his team...If I'm not mistaken, Wade does have a ring. Nash can't even get to the finals.
PHOENIX SUNS
'03-'04 29-53 6th, Pacific Division (w/o Nash)

'04-'05 62-20 1st, Pacific Division Lost West Conf Finals (with Nash)

Since Nash came aboard, the Suns have won the Pacific conference every year and made the Conference Finals two out of three. Ring or not, Nash has carried this team on his back. And not for six weeks. It's been three years.





Originally posted by Macarthur
Nash has tons more talent around him than Lebron does. I'm sorry Nash is clearly a notch below Lebron.
You're right about Nash having more talent than LeBron. He does. I won't argue that. But I will argue this...


Originally posted by big daddy russ
...It's going to take a lot more than a run through the Eastern Conference Playoffs to convince me that he's clearly better than Nash...
.
...Hell, he could bring Boston over to the Western Conference and turn them into a playoff squad. That's basically what he did to Phoenix.




Originally posted by Macarthur
PHeonix was a good team before he got there. He made them better, but again, how many finals has Nash taken his team?
I'm going to answer this with a quote of my own...


Originally posted by big daddy russ
PHOENIX SUNS
'03-'04 29-53 6th, Pacific Division (w/o Nash)
It's obvious you're not high on the guy, but he just wins games.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Come again???


Two straight MVP's. Turned a 29-win team into a 62-win team.

Means nothing to me. Sure he wins, in the regular season.




No, it's not, but if he wants to be in the same company as LBJ, Dirk, Nash, Kobe and Duncan that's just the way it is. The Spurs (most notably Duncan) were very banged up last year. They still took the Mavs to seven in the WCF.

Excuse me, but if I'm not mistaken, Wade has a ring.


Kobe has nobody around him, but the Lakers are still competitive.

Yes, and I happen to think he's the best player in the league. your point?



As soon as Wade shows me that he can make his team competitive without that guy in the middle to draw the defense in, then I'll put him ahead of Nash. That hasn't happened yet.

I can't stand that argument. So if Troy Aikman didn't have Irvin and Emmitt, he wouldn't have been as good. It's a chicken and egg.





PHOENIX SUNS
'03-'04 29-53 6th, Pacific Division (w/o Nash)

'04-'05 62-20 1st, Pacific Division Lost West Conf Finals (with Nash)

Since Nash came aboard, the Suns have won the Pacific conference every year and made the Conference Finals two out of three. Ring or not, Nash has carried this team on his back. And not for six weeks. It's been three years.

They win in the regular season. It has been proven time and again that style of basketball does not win in the playoffs. Nash runs that offense wonderfully, but he is a huge liability on defense and he repeatedly wears down late in the year.



You're right about Nash having more talent than LeBron. He does. I won't argue that. But I will argue this...

But you hold it against Wade. Miami has nothing beyond Shaq and Wade.




I'm going to answer this with a quote of my own...


It's obvious you're not high on the guy, but he just wins games.

Again, I'm not high on regular season numbers. You see where that got the Mavs this year.

I like Nash, but I think he is really overrated. Runs their offense wonderfully and has developed into one of the better shooters in the league, but he is a liability on defense, and for me, defense is just as important (if not more) than what someoen does on offense.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Macarthur
Means nothing to me. Sure he wins, in the regular season.
Made the WCF twice with the Suns.



Originally posted by Macarthur
Excuse me, but if I'm not mistaken, Wade has a ring.
So does Derrick Dial. And Dan Marino, Oscar Robertson, and Colin Farrell don't.



Originally posted by Macarthur
Yes, and I happen to think he's the best player in the league. your point?
Just saying, he hasn't won without Shaq. D-Wade's done even less.



Originally posted by Macarthur
I can't stand that argument. So if Troy Aikman didn't have Irvin and Emmitt, he wouldn't have been as good. It's a chicken and egg.
Then Aikman would've had more passing yards. But again, Nash MAKES his team better.

It's not, "did the chicken or the egg come first?" It's Nash came, the Suns started winning.



Originally posted by Macarthur
They win in the regular season. It has been proven time and again that style of basketball does not win in the playoffs. Nash runs that offense wonderfully, but he is a huge liability on defense and he repeatedly wears down late in the year.
You're right. And it hasn't since the Showtime Lakers. But Nash still carries his team year-in, year-out. Until he stops doing that, my rankings won't change.



Originally posted by Macarthur
But you hold it against Wade. Miami has nothing beyond Shaq and Wade.
I said last year, and I still say, that Miami's success is because of Shaq, not Wade. Shaq may only play 25 minutes a game nowadays, but for those 25 minutes he is still absolutely dominant.






Originally posted by Macarthur
Again, I'm not high on regular season numbers. You see where that got the Mavs this year.
Yeah, I do. But I'm not willing to knock Nash below Wade just because he hasn't won a ring.

He consistently wins in the playoffs against a loaded Western Conference. Period. End of story.

He carries his team every night. Wade doesn't.



Originally posted by Macarthur
I like Nash, but I think he is really overrated. Runs their offense wonderfully and has developed into one of the better shooters in the league, but he is a liability on defense, and for me, defense is just as important (if not more) than what someoen does on offense.
He is absolutely a liability on defense, but so is LBJ. All I care about is how good they make their team. That's it.

IMO, if you replace Nash with Leandro Barbosa (who's a phenomenal player in his own right), you're looking at a 35-win team. If you replace D-Wade with, say, Richard Hamilton (still a great two-guard, but I don't know if he's as good as Barbosa), the Heat still vie for a title.

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Made the WCF twice with the Suns.

And they got drilled both times.




Just saying, he hasn't won without Shaq. D-Wade's done even less.

Ring.



Then Aikman would've had more passing yards. But again, Nash MAKES his team better.

It's not, "did the chicken or the egg come first?" It's Nash came, the Suns started winning.

Sure he makes his team better. I don't think we're in disagreement there.



You're right. And it hasn't since the Showtime Lakers.

Yeah, but those lakers could play defense. The Suns can't.


But Nash still carries his team year-in, year-out. Until he stops doing that, my rankings won't change.

Well, I think we have a different definition of carrying a team. I just can't consider someone a transcendent player if he can't play defense.



I said last year, and I still say, that Miami's success is because of Shaq, not Wade. Shaq may only play 25 minutes a game nowadays, but for those 25 minutes he is still absolutely dominant.

No doubt, but I would disagree that their success was only Shaq.




Yeah, I do. But I'm not willing to knock Nash below Wade just because he hasn't won a ring.

And can't play defense. ; )




He consistently wins in the playoffs against a loaded Western Conference. Period. End of story.

But he doesn't win consistently in the playoffs. Sure they beat the 6th or 8th seeds, but they can't beat Dallas or SA. And if LA had any luck they would have beat them last year when they were up 3-1.




He is absolutely a liability on defense, but so is LBJ. All I care about is how good they make their team. That's it.

I agree Lebron is a great defender, but his defense has gotten better each year. I fully expect him to be at least a good defender as his career goes on. At least he still has that upside.


IMO, if you replace Nash with Leandro Barbosa (who's a phenomenal player in his own right), you're looking at a 35-win team. If you replace D-Wade with, say, Richard Hamilton (still a great two-guard, but I don't know if he's as good as Barbosa), the Heat still vie for a title.

I disagree, but that's okay. ;)

[DU_stud04]

1. timmy d
2. kobe
3. king james
4. kg
5. nash

[mustang04]

1) Lebron
2)Kobe

the final 3 in no particular order:

Nash
Wade
Nowitsky (sp?)

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Macarthur
And they got drilled both times.
They took it six games against the Mavs. Dallas only won one lopsided game.



Originally posted by Macarthur

Ring.

Dan Marino. The Big O. Colin Farrell. All are/were the greatest players of all time. None have rings.



Originally posted by Macarthur
Sure he makes his team better. I don't think we're in disagreement there.

He doesn't just make his team better. He turns a 29-win team into the one of the three best teams in the league.



Originally posted by Macarthur
Yeah, but those lakers could play defense. The Suns can't.

Cooper and Green played defense. Kareem blocked an occasional shot when he got back on D. The Lakers as a team played about as much defense as the '02 Kings.



Originally posted by Macarthur
Well, I think we have a different definition of carrying a team. I just can't consider someone a transcendent player if he can't play defense.

Why not? Wade doesn't play defense worth a crap. Neither does LeBron. Neither did Magic. I'd say that everyone except Wade is a transcendant player.



Originally posted by Macarthur
No doubt, but I would disagree that their success was only Shaq.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Wade would NOT win by himself. He proved that this year.

Nash would. He's also proved that. He may not be Jordan, but neither is Wade.




Originally posted by Macarthur
And can't play defense. ; )

I'm as big a fan of defense as anyone, but if the addition of one player turns a 29-win team into a 62-win team, then his offense must have had an impact far greater than we realize.




Originally posted by Macarthur
But he doesn't win consistently in the playoffs. Sure they beat the 6th or 8th seeds, but they can't beat Dallas or SA. And if LA had any luck they would have beat them last year when they were up 3-1.

Sure he does. He did with Dallas and he does with Phoenix.

No, he can't get past the two best teams in the league, but that's alright. He's still a top-five player.



Originally posted by Macarthur

I agree Lebron is a great defender, but his defense has gotten better each year. I fully expect him to be at least a good defender as his career goes on. At least he still has that upside.

You're right, he may yet turn out to be a good... possibly great... defender. Just look at T-Mac. When he played with the Magic and the Raptors, he played as much defense as the Maginot Line. When Van Gundy got a hold of him, he started matching up against guys like Rip Hamilton and Steve Nash on defense.

But we're talking about right now. And right now, LBJ doesn't play D. At all.

Does that mean he's not a "transcendant player?"