View Full Version : Astros & Rangers: still have ??s at closer/pitching staff...
Rangers: Eric Gagne will start year on disabled list for 3rd year in a row (still rehabbing shoulder & elbow); other pitching concerns as always.
Astros: Brad Lidge had a 12+ ERA this Spring after last year's dismal display, including a 412 foot bomb to super prospect Hunter Pence last night in Round Rock. He has not been right since Pujols hit the blast that still has not landed in the playoffs. Questions in rotation after Oswalt & Jennings too but lots of good prospects on way like Estrada, Patton, Gutierrez, Barthmaier, Paulino, etc.
(Wouldn't it be nice if the Astros had not given up on former farmhand Johan Santana a few years back? He has won 2 Cy Young Awards in a row for the Twins...)
Let the real games begin...
Bearkat
03-30-2007, 09:48 AM
There's a shocker, the Rangers have questions on their pitching staff.
Adidas410s
03-30-2007, 09:49 AM
I never knew that Santana was from the Astros farm system...sad indeed! :(
Originally posted by Adidas410s
I never knew that Santana was from the Astros farm system...sad indeed! :(
Sure was...came out of our Venezuelan Academy & was slow to develop, then the Twins took him in a Rule V deal. Same Academy produced Santana, Richard Hidalgo, Bobby Abreu (another that got away in Expansion Draft), & others. Andres Reiner started this deal for the Astros & now everyone does it.
Maroon87
03-30-2007, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by g$$
Sure was...came out of our Venezuelan Academy & was slow to develop, then the Twins took him in a Rule V deal. Same Academy produced Santana, Richard Hidalgo, Bobby Abreu (another that got away in Expansion Draft), & others. Andres Reiner started this deal for the Astros & now everyone does it.
Yup..the Stros chose to keep Hidalgo and expose Abreu in the '98 expansion draft. The D-Rays took him and traded him to Philly. I've laid awake some nights wondering "what if" on that decision.:(
Originally posted by Maroon87
Yup..the Stros chose to keep Hidalgo and expose Abreu in the '98 expansion draft. The D-Rays took him and traded him to Philly. I've laid awake some nights wondering "what if" on that decision.:(
Me too buddy! Everyone loses players but we have had our fair share. We were higher on Hidalgo & Redding than Abreu & Santana...not a good decision.
sahen
03-30-2007, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by g$$
Astros: Brad Lidge had a 12+ ERA this Spring after last year's dismal display, including a 412 foot bomb to super prospect Hunter Pence last night in Round Rock. He has not been right since Pujols hit the blast that still has not landed in the playoffs. Questions in rotation after Oswalt & Jennings too but lots of good prospects on way like Estrada, Patton, Gutierrez, Barthmaier, Paulino, etc.
I wouldnt worry too much about spring training stats, pitchers that are normally dominate look horrible during spring training since they arent trying to get people out, just pitch...I will start worrying about Lidge if he blows several saves in the first month and his ERA is sitting above 4....
Originally posted by sahen
I wouldnt worry too much about spring training stats, pitchers that are normally dominate look horrible during spring training since they arent trying to get people out, just pitch...I will start worrying about Lidge if he blows several saves in the first month and his ERA is sitting above 4....
Oh, I never put much stock in Spring stats, but with Lidge it worries me because of what has transpired since his meltdown 2 years ago. He has lost confidence, his slider is not the same out pitch consistently, his mechanics have suffered causing his high velocity fastball to flatten out, no command/lots of walks, & he has been awful. His ERA last year was over 5 & he blew numerous saves (the most overrated stat in baseball by the way).
With pitchers getting in shape it is foolish to worry about Spring #s. Veterans pitch differently, sequence batters differently, working on stuff, etc. I am well aware of that (not worried about Woody & he has been awful this Spring). Nolan Ryan always stunk in the Spring, Roger Clemens calls it room service fastballs, etc. But Lidge concerns me. I hope he can rebound in a big way because he has elite stuff when right. The Astros need him in a big way.
sahen
03-30-2007, 02:15 PM
the save stat is over-rated but when your job is closer it is important...ERA and WHIP indicates more how a pitcher is pitching...Lidge's ERA was horrible and his WHIP was high, but it stayed below 1.5 due to the fact that he still strikes a lot of people out....
the funny thing w/ Lidge is that as Astros fans we are spoilt w/ really good to great closers in teh past...Lidge still had 32 saves and only 6 blown saves...there are a lot of teams that would love to have that....compare that to 42 saves and 4 blown the year before....he is still getting the job done but he is not as dominate as before....that said, he appears to be on the fast track to completely falling apart and being useless....hopefully he turns it around starting monday and we see the old dominate lidge again....
crzyjournalist03
03-30-2007, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by sahen
the save stat is over-rated but when your job is closer it is important...ERA and WHIP indicates more how a pitcher is pitching...Lidge's ERA was horrible and his WHIP was high, but it stayed below 1.5 due to the fact that he still strikes a lot of people out....
the funny thing w/ Lidge is that as Astros fans we are spoilt w/ really good to great closers in teh past...Lidge still had 32 saves and only 6 blown saves...there are a lot of teams that would love to have that....compare that to 42 saves and 4 blown the year before....he is still getting the job done but he is not as dominate as before....that said, he appears to be on the fast track to completely falling apart and being useless....hopefully he turns it around starting monday and we see the old dominate lidge again....
he reminds me a lot of Fransisco Cordero with the Rangers last year (except that Coco had no reason to be expected to implode). Once you start struggling, fans jump on you and demand improvement. Coco tried everything last year from changing his glove, cutting his hair, etc. It gets to a point to where you're mentally beating yourself up and can't perform.
If Lidge struggles early, the best thing might be to trade him. Cordero became lights out again once he went to Milwaukee. A change of scenery can do wonders for a pitcher's mindset.
JR2004
03-30-2007, 07:09 PM
That sound of laughter Rangers fan are hearing from out West is Dodgers fans who knew Gagne wouldn't be ready to go by opening day!
Neither team is going to be in the playoffs. Texas doesn't have what it takes to knock off the Angels or the A's and Houston, even in a weak division, won't make it out.
Keith7
03-30-2007, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by JR2004
That sound of laughter Rangers fan are hearing from out West is Dodgers fans who knew Gagne wouldn't be ready to go by opening day!
Ron Washington was on espn radio yesterday and said Gange will likely be brought up april 12th.. god forbid he misses a week and a half, that makes Gange a bust
JR2004
03-30-2007, 07:15 PM
God forbid you know a single thing about the sport of baseball!
Keith7
03-30-2007, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by JR2004
God forbid you know a single thing about the sport of baseball!
sorry I made your post look stupid
JR2004
03-30-2007, 07:33 PM
LOL...I see why you follow the Rangers!
I'm still waiting to hear back from you again about how Billy Beane invented Money Ball...I guess you just conveniently skipped over the factual response to that stuff you made up about Beane!
Keith7
03-30-2007, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by JR2004
LOL...I see why you follow the Rangers!
I'm still waiting to hear back from you again about how Billy Beane invented Money Ball...I guess you just conveniently skipped over the factual response to that stuff you made up about Beane!
Never claimed Beane invented moneyball, go back and read, I simply said he was the first to apply it to a real team.. we all know Bill James was the first person to recognize of the some of the under appreciated stats that baseball has
JR2004
03-30-2007, 08:10 PM
Wrong again! Beane was NOT the first to apply it to a team...My gosh do you have Billy Packer syndrome?
Say this name with me...
SANDY ALDERSON.
JR2004
03-30-2007, 08:13 PM
<<um ya this also makes me question you being a baseball fan.. Anyone who knows anything, knows that Billy Beane single handely turned the A's around, and it was he who found alternate methods of "stock piling cheap talent" ( by paying $$ for on base percentage, and groundball/flyball ratio instead of HR's and K's)..>>
Sandy Alderson did this BEFORE Beane (He was Beane's mentor, but I'm sure you already knew that, right?) and Beane credits him with this philosophy.
Maroon87
03-30-2007, 08:17 PM
I think the Astros will be in playoff contention again this year, almost in spite of themselves. Kinda like last year...:confused:
Keith7
03-30-2007, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by JR2004
<<um ya this also makes me question you being a baseball fan.. Anyone who knows anything, knows that Billy Beane single handely turned the A's around, and it was he who found alternate methods of "stock piling cheap talent" ( by paying $$ for on base percentage, and groundball/flyball ratio instead of HR's and K's)..>>
Sandy Alderson did this BEFORE Beane (He was Beane's mentor, but I'm sure you already knew that, right?) and Beane credits him with this philosophy.
touche.. Ok I got my facts wrong, you win.. I guess I need to go and dust off my copy of Moneyball so I can get my facts straight..
I just read an article on Sandy Alderson, very interesting guy btw
Maroon87
03-30-2007, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by g$$
Me too buddy! Everyone loses players but we have had our fair share. We were higher on Hidalgo & Redding than Abreu & Santana...not a good decision.
The prevailing wisdom at the time from Hunsicker (Astros GM at the time) was that while Abreu had the most upside, Hidalgo was most suited to the MLB level at that particular point in time. Translated: Abreu was gonna hold us hostage for a lot more money than Hidalgo.:rolleyes:
sahen
03-30-2007, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Maroon87
The prevailing wisdom at the time from Hunsicker (Astros GM at the time) was that while Abreu had the most upside, Hidalgo was most suited to the MLB level at that particular point in time. Translated: Abreu was gonna hold us hostage for a lot more money than Hidalgo.:rolleyes:
well atleast we got Hidalgo back in AAA now....who knows, maybe he will produce again but im not holding my breath...
sahen
03-30-2007, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by JR2004
Houston, even in a weak division, won't make it out.
for a weak division they sure do dominate the National League, i mean the national league representative in the World Series was from the NL Central only the last 3 years....not to mention of the past 3 NL Championship series 5 of the 6 teams were from the central...:rolleyes:
Originally posted by sahen
well atleast we got Hidalgo back in AAA now....who knows, maybe he will produce again but im not holding my breath...
To my knowledge, Hidalgo was outright released & not sent to the minors. We have 3 young starting OFs anyway at RR: Pence (for now), Anderson, & Rodriguez. Hidalgo is done (bat speed gone) & that is unfortunate b/c at one time he was a quality player.
On the save stat, yes it is very overrated to me. WHIP & ERA much better & more revealing of a player's worth. A closer can enter a game with a 2 run lead, pitch awful, & still get a save for a very ineffective inning of work. Lidge better get it going quickly or Wheeler will be promoted to closer & everybody moves up in the pen.
sahen
04-01-2007, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by g$$
To my knowledge, Hidalgo was outright released & not sent to the minors. We have 3 young starting OFs anyway at RR: Pence (for now), Anderson, & Rodriguez. Hidalgo is done (bat speed gone) & that is unfortunate b/c at one time he was a quality player.
oh didnt know that, i just saw that we signed him in the offseason and he was at spring training for a while i think....that sucks for him i guess, kinda crazy you can go from hitting waht 40 homers one year and then just not be able to produce well enough to atleast stay in the majors....
JR2004
04-01-2007, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by sahen
for a weak division they sure do dominate the National League, i mean the national league representative in the World Series was from the NL Central only the last 3 years....not to mention of the past 3 NL Championship series 5 of the 6 teams were from the central...:rolleyes:
1) The playoffs are a crapshoot. See Florida 2003 and 1997.
2) Again the playoffs are a crapshoot! It's all about whoever gets hot at the right time.
JasperDog94
04-01-2007, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by sahen
oh didnt know that, i just saw that we signed him in the offseason and he was at spring training for a while i think....that sucks for him i guess, kinda crazy you can go from hitting waht 40 homers one year and then just not be able to produce well enough to atleast stay in the majors.... One word...steroids.
Originally posted by sahen
oh didnt know that, i just saw that we signed him in the offseason and he was at spring training for a while i think....that sucks for him i guess, kinda crazy you can go from hitting waht 40 homers one year and then just not be able to produce well enough to atleast stay in the majors....
Off the top of my head, Hidalgo hit 44 one year & had another year around 40 too. Steroids? Quite possible, but he was always a big man (I am not naive, steroids are prevalent) with a gun in RF. He lost weight this time & just could not catch up to MLB pitching. Hit in the .140 range this Spring with quite a few ABs. Time to hang it up.
Originally posted by JR2004
1) The playoffs are a crapshoot. See Florida 2003 and 1997.
2) Again the playoffs are a crapshoot! It's all about whoever gets hot at the right time.
True, but those were both good Florida teams, esp. 1997 with Alou, Bonilla, Sheffield, etc. & pitching.
sahen
04-01-2007, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by JR2004
1) The playoffs are a crapshoot. See Florida 2003 and 1997.
2) Again the playoffs are a crapshoot! It's all about whoever gets hot at the right time.
a crapshoot?...you have to be one of the best 4 teams in your league to get in the playoffs....the crapshoot playoffs are in other sports like the NBA where over half the league makes it, in baseball you actually have to be good to compete for the title....
and excuse me for measuring which teams were the best by the playoffs when they compete exclusively against the best teams from the other divisions....i figured 3 years of dominace by the NL Central in the National League side of the playoffs would cancel out any talk of they only win it cause they got hot but i guess not...at what point do you have to admit the NL Central atleast at the top is better than the other divisions and they arent just getting lucky? 5 years of dominance? 10 years?
If you want to find a weak division look no further than the NL West, when was the last time they even won a series in the playoffs?...2003 when the Giants lost in the World Series...since 2003 the NL West has won a total of 2 playoff games by their representative...
Originally posted by sahen
a crapshoot?...you have to be one of the best 4 teams in your league to get in the playoffs....the crapshoot playoffs are in other sports like the NBA where over half the league makes it, in baseball you actually have to be good to compete for the title....
and excuse me for measuring which teams were the best by the playoffs when they compete exclusively against the best teams from the other divisions....i figured 3 years of dominace by the NL Central in the National League side of the playoffs would cancel out any talk of they only win it cause they got hot but i guess not...at what point do you have to admit the NL Central atleast at the top is better than the other divisions and they arent just getting lucky? 5 years of dominance? 10 years?
If you want to find a weak division look no further than the NL West, when was the last time they even won a series in the playoffs?...2003 when the Giants lost in the World Series...since 2003 the NL West has won a total of 2 playoff games by their representative...
Great post. NBA is the worst where anyone still breathing makes the playoffs. At least in baseball it is the top 4 in each league (3 division winners plus WC). NFL is earned too. Now once the playoffs begin, a team can get hot & make a run, a la the Cardinals last year.
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