Kobe

[bulldogman06]

Is he the greatest player ever?
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I wasnt sure at first, but now, im pretty sure that Kobe may be better than anyone else to ever play the game. complete dominance of basketball where the other players are more athletic, faster, and more skilled than any other players era.

[SintonFan]

Jordan...
I wanna "be like Mike" to this day! Kobe sucks unless he is serving marbled beef...
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sincerely,
a Spurs fan!

[bulldogman06]

I love Jordan, and I really love the Spurs, but did Jordan ever do what Kobe is doing right now?

[SintonFan]

5 games doesn't make "the greatest player" imo.

[smustangs]

Originally posted by SintonFan
5 games doesn't make "the greatest player" imo.

amen, lets see kobe lead them to 6 championships and win a few mvps then well talk about it

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by bulldogman06
I love Jordan, and I really love the Spurs, but did Jordan ever do what Kobe is doing right now?
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He did "it" with a flu, man!:D

[big daddy russ]

Could be in the future, but isn't yet. HOWEVER, he may be the best (not necessarily greatest) ever. IMO, you have to look at him, Wilt, and the Big O as the best players ever as far as singular, on-the-court domination. Tex Winter (the "offensive coordinator" for both Jordan's Bulls and Kobe's Lakers) said a few years ago that the only physical trait of Jordan that Kobe lacked was physical strength and the low post game that goes with it. Said that Kobe was better at creating his own shot, was just as clutch, better ball-handling, more athletic, the whole nine yards. And this was two or three years ago.

IMO, the Colorado incident reeked and still does... but even if the accusations are true, that doesn't change the fact that he's a beast on the court.

[bulldogman06]

I agree with the 5 games thing, all that did was prove to me that what I thought could be true, was. he is undefendable, plays good defense, and has all the intangibles. his only problem is off the court

[bulldogman06]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
IMO, the Colorado incident reeked and still does... but even if the accusations are true, that doesn't change the fact that he's a beast on the court.

I agree, people judge him more for the incident than they do for his game. Im not saying I like the guy, but what he is doing is amazing

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by bulldogman06
I agree with the 5 games thing, all that did was prove to me that what I thought could be true, was. he is undefendable, plays good defense, and has all the intangibles. his only problem is off the court
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He had his chance to come to the Spurs but he chose the glitz and glamour of LA instead of playing for someone who cared about more than themself.
Selfish... yes
Good... yes
Great... yes
Greatest... not when you look at all the intangibles
He might get LA in the playoffs, but unless it can be proven he is the sole reason...
he tries the hardest on that team it would seem.
:D
sincerely,
Spurs Fan;)

[bulldogman06]

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
He had his chance to come to the Spurs but he chose the glitz and glamour of LA instead of playing for someone who cared about more than themself.
Selfish... yes
Good... yes
Great... yes
Greatest... not when you look at all the intangibles
He might get LA in the playoffs, but unless it can be proven he is the sole reason...
he tries the hardest on that team it would seem.
:D
sincerely,
Spurs Fan;)

The argument here isnt who was the best team player, who was the least selfish player, who took his team to the playoffs most. it was who was the greatest player ever to play the game of basketball.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by bulldogman06
The argument here isnt who was the best team player, who was the least selfish player, who took his team to the playoffs most. it was who was the greatest player ever to play the game of basketball.
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You know my answer.:D

[bulldogman06]

Originally posted by SintonFan
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You know my answer.:D

Hehe, yea, I do. and the only thing I have left to say is this: Go Spurs Go

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by bulldogman06
Hehe, yea, I do. and the only thing I have left to say is this: Go Spurs Go
.
Spurs up 112-72 with not much to go.:D :clap:

[Bulldog_12]

I dont think the Colorado incident should have any bearing on whether or not he is the greatest. People are all too quick to forget that Jordan was not exactly squeaky clean either.

[coach]

a. jordan made his teammates better...kobe didnt
b. kobe isnt half the defensivemen jordan was
c. kobe is way too selfish
d. how many times did jordan miss the playoffs.
e. how many championships has kobe won without the most dominant player in the league at that time?
f. its Michael Jordan

[burnet44]

if you shoot enough
you will score

just another drut

he wont win another one
not unless there is a trade

he cant hold Birds or Wilts or Mikes or Kareem or West or Russells
jock strap

he shoots a ton

here is his stats

PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP MPG PTS FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT%
1 Kobe Bryant , LAL 65 40.4 31.0 10.2-21.9 .467 1.9-5.2 .359 8.7-10.0 .869

148th in the league in fg%
115th in the league in 3 point%
50th in the league in ft%
4th in the league in turnovers/game
50th steals to turnover ratio
73rd in assist/turnover ratio
6th in total turnovers

2nd in the league in FG attempted 1423 just behing Gilbert (I cnat win ethier) Arenas

the guy just shoots
makes headlines

team is

38-32
6th in the west
wont be 5th

could be 7th or 8th
3 up on Denver
4 up on the Clips
5 up on the Warriors
7 up on NO

15-17 vs sub 500 clubs

Ill say first round loss to SA 3-1

I may be wrong first round is 5 games?

[burnet44]

wilt

Year Team G Reb. PPG
61-62 Phil. 80 *25.7 *50.4

he averaged 25 rebounds a game and 50 a night

kobe aint him

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by bulldogman06
The argument here isnt who was the best team player, who was the least selfish player, who took his team to the playoffs most. it was who was the greatest player ever to play the game of basketball.
Here's my opinion:

Bill Russell played before the NBA was popular and long before TV analysts peroused all the tapes. He typically had a pretty decent supporting cast, didn't score 30 a game, and definitely didn't put up the numbers that guys like Wilt Chamberlain did. But he was absolutely the greatest player ever. I'm going to throw some numbers out at you. Ones that matter. Ones that'll give you a better idea of what each of the three guys typically in the argument meant to their respective teams.

Oh, and the biggest argument against Russell is that Wilt didn't have the supporting cast that Russell did, so let's take a look.

Bill Russell retired from the Celtics in '69. Wilt Chamberlain was traded from the San Francisco Warrior to the Philly 76ers midway through the 65-66 season and from the Sixers to the Lakers after the '68 season. Jordan left the Bulls for good after the '98 campaign, but Pippen, Rodman, and most of the supporting cast left with him. A better judge of what he meant to his team would be after his first retirement, in '93.



WILT'S LEGACY
'63-'64 San Francisco Warriors' Record (48-32, Finished 1st in NBA Western Division, Lost in the NBA Finals to Russell's Celtics)
Wilt was traded to the Sixers midway through the next season
'65-'66 Warriors' Record (35-45, Finished 4th in Western Division)

-meanwhile-

'63-'64 Sixers' Record (34-46, Finished 3rd in NBA Eastern Division, Lost in the first round of the playoffs to Oscar Robertson's Cincy Royals)
'65-'66 Sixers' Record (55-25, Finished 1st in the Eastern Division, Lost in the first round of the playoffs to Russell's Celtics... This is the one place where you could say that he actually turned a team around and another hurt because of him, but that's without realizing that a couple of future HOFers like Hal Greer also came to Philly during these years and that the Warriors lost more than just Wilt during these years)

-also-

'67-'68 Sixers' Record (62-20, Finished 1st in the Eastern Conf., Lost in the Eastern Conf. Finals to Russell's Celtics)
Wilt was traded to the Lakers after the season
'68-'69 Sixers' Record (55-27, Finished 2nd in the Eastern Conf., Lost in the first round to Russell's Celtics WITHOUT Wilt)

-meanwhile-

'67-'68 Lakers' Record (52-30, Finished 2nd in the Western Conf, Lost in the NBA Finals to Russell's Celtics WITHOUT Wilt)
'68-'69 Lakers' Record (55-27, Finished 1st in the Western Conf, Lost in the NBA Finals to Russell's Celtics WITH Wilt)

-finally-

'72-'73 Lakers' Record (60-22, Finished 1st in the Pacific Division, Lost to the Knicks in the NBA Finals)
Wilt Retires
'73-'74 Lakers' Record (47-35, Finished 1st in the Pacific, Lost to the Bucks in the Western Conf. Semis... Oh, and Jerry West was injured most of the year)



JORDAN'S LEGACY
'92-'93 Bulls' Record (57-25, Finished 1st in the Central Division, Won the NBA Title over the Suns)
Jordan retires
'93-'94 Bulls' Record (55-27, Finished 2nd in the Central, Lost in the Eastern Conf Semis to the Knicks... and took the Knicks, the Eastern Conference's eventual representative in the Finals, the distance... That's right, seven games)



RUSSELL'S LEGACY
'68-'69 Celtics' Record (48-34, good for only 4th in the Eastern Conference... BUT a 35-year-old Russell turns it on in the playoffs and he wins his his second NBA Title in a row, 10th in the last 11 years, and 11th of his 13-year career)
Russell retires
'69-'70 Celtics (34-48, 6th {second-to-last} in the Eastern Conference)



I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "Maybe the other teams gave up a lot to get Wilt. Maybe the talent level that the other teams got made up for the loss of one of the five greatest NBAers of all time."

The Sixers sent Paul Neumann, Connie Dierking, and Lee Shaffer to the Warriors while Wilt went to a team that included HOF guard Hal Greer along with several All-Stars.

"OK, so what about the Lakers?"

Wilt forced a trade and was given to the Lake show for a six pack and box of "I Love Lucy" reruns. Oh, and Darrall Imhoff, Archie Clark and Jerry Chambers were involved, too. Imhoff was a career journeyman. Neither of the other two were in the league for more than five years. Wilt, meanwhile, was giftwrapped to a team that had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West. And they won a grand total of three more regular season games, capped by the same result in the postseason as the year before.

As per my argument against Jordan, his departure had more of an effect than Wilt's, but he wasn't as pivotal to that team as everyone makes him out to be.

The greatest player of his generation? Absolutely. The most skilled player since Wilt and the Big O? Definitely. Overrated by a media that didn't start getting into the NBA until the mid- to late-80's? Without a doubt.

Now let's switch gears and take a look at Russell. Sure, he came into the league on a good team led by HOF PG Bob Cousy. Sure, they had been to the Finals the year before and lost. But Russell revolutionized the game in a way that not even Wilt the Stilt could. For the first time ever, five players on a team had to worry about one defender. There hasn't been a defensive player before or since that has impacted that side of the court nearly as much as Russell. Nor has there been a competitor with Russell's fire or a teammate with Russell's heart.

"So how much did the Celtics' lineup change from '69 to '70?"

Not much. All Stars Bailey Howell, Don Nelson, and John Havlicek stayed on. Two of those guys went on to the Hall of Fame while one will wind up there after his coaching days are done, but there was one other major change. A former All-Star guard in the twilight of his career, Sam Jones, was replaced with up-and-coming Kansas phenom KC Jones. The Celts actually had a BETTER supporting cast the year after Russell retired, but couldn't even break into the playoffs.

So there it is. There's my argument as to why Russell's the greatest of all time. Wilt's numbers overshadow a talent that couldn't play together with his team and Jordan, who I actually think is the second-greatest player of all time, is EXTREMELY overrated.

[big daddy russ]

nvm

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by burnet44
wilt

Year Team G Reb. PPG
61-62 Phil. 80 *25.7 *50.4

he averaged 25 rebounds a game and 50 a night

kobe aint him
Wilt was 7'1" and quite possibly the most skilled C ever in an era when your average pivot was about 6'9" and your average game was a 250+ point slugfest. Imagine if David Robinson was 7'7" tall. That was Wilt Chamberlain.

Kobe's about 6'7" in an era when your average G/F is about 6'7" and is dominating every one of them. Kobe's every bit Wilt, Oscar Robertson, Magic, Bird, and Jordan as far as skills go. And don't put West in this argument. He doesn't belong in this company.

[bulldogman06]

Originally posted by burnet44
wilt

Year Team G Reb. PPG
61-62 Phil. 80 *25.7 *50.4

he averaged 25 rebounds a game and 50 a night

kobe aint him

Hahaha, right you are, Kobe actually plays people who are supposed to be close to his talent level. he also doesnt dwarf all of these people. he is just average size.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by coach
a. jordan made his teammates better...kobe didnt
b. kobe isnt half the defensivemen jordan was
c. kobe is way too selfish
d. how many times did jordan miss the playoffs.
e. how many championships has kobe won without the most dominant player in the league at that time?
f. its Michael Jordan
Sorry coach. I tend agree with you on most stuff, but I disagree with you wholeheartedly on this one.


a. I definitely wouldn't say that. Kobe made Smush Parker and Luke Walton decent NBA players.


b. While Jordan may have been a little better in the post, Kobe's every bit the defender Jordan was. He's one of the top two defensive wings in the NBA, along with Ron Artest (and he may be better than Artest). The only other guys who should even be in the same breath as Kobe are Trenton Hassell, Bruce Bowen (who's fading quickly), Chauncey Billups, and Tayshaun Prince. And they've got a LOOOONG ways to go.

The other guys you may want to bring up right here: Dwayne Wade, Andrei Kirilenko, and Jason Kidd (ever since his knee injury) are all overrated as defenders. Besides, Kobe's been a First-Team All-NBA Defensive player four years (and three of the last four) and a Second-Teamer twice. That means that out of the seven previous years he's been a full-time starter, he's made the cut six times.


c. He's only become more selfish recently, after the Zen Master asked him to be. LeBron, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, and Gilbert Arenas all average about the same number of shots per game that Kobe does, but he leads everyone in scoring (even though Anthony plays lower and takes more shots than him) and has almost as many assists (5.4 per game, good for 24th in the league from a 'shoot first' guard) as LeBron and Arenas, both of whom set up their team's offense most of the time.


d. Twice, but both times with the Wiz. Here's a better question: Mike came into the league at what, 21 years of age? From 21 years on, how many times did Kobe miss the playoffs? And was there a time, from '84 through '98, that the Eastern Conference was anywhere near as dominant as the Western Conference has been since MJ's second retirement?

Kobe's dominance has come in the most dominant era for a single conference ever. And he's playing in that conference.



e. None. How many championships did Jordan win without one of the five most underrated and 50 (maybe even 35) greatest players of all time?



f. It's funny, we live in what's coming to be known as the "Information Age," but the info we get tends to skew history. To this day, our nation still believes the Civil War was started because of slavery (it was taxation, started primarily by the Tariff of Abominations... slavery wasn't even an issue in the war until the Emancipation Proclamation was issued over a year after the war started), we still believe we were the good guys in WWI (assassinated Austro-Hungarian Archduke Francis Ferdinand was MLK long before the American Civil Rights movement... we also went to the aid of the side who killed more Americans and sunk more American ships than the Germans... and the Treaty of Versailles was a horrible way to screw over an entire nation and plunge them into the worst modern depression ever because of two countries' selfish interests), and the media has forgotten and discarded an era of the NBA that they failed to cover.

The NBA was a second-rate professional league until Magic-Bird came along. Before that, the League was in financial ruins, desperately close to bankruptcy. Both MLB and the NFL got analysts for the games, and ESPN was quick to cover both leagues when they came on the scene at the end of the 70's.

Newspapers and hoopsters who watched and played against Mike will tell you he's the best ever until they're blue in the face. Red Auerbach, John Ramsey, the late George Mikan, and most of the old guard aren't as quick to agree.

See above for my reasons as to why Bill Russell may not be the "best" of all time, but he is the "greatest" of all time.

[big daddy russ]

Speak of the devil. I just jumped from the Downlow to ESPN.com and found this little nugget. Perfect for the topic.


Of course, the idea that Kobe is better than Jordan -- or even the best player in this league -- is as repugnant to some folks as a rectal exam. Even though Kobe has proven himself under pressure countless times, he gets the A-Rod treatment.
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Kobe can't please anyone. And it doesn't help that most people suffer from revisionist history when it comes to Jordan, forgetting that he was just as poor a teammate and a ball hog and that he ran off coach Doug Collins like Kobe ran off Phil Jackson the first time.
.
In fact, you could argue that Jordan was even worse. Far as we know, Kobe hasn't jacked up any of his teammates the way Jordan punched out Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at practice.
.
Kobe will never be forgiven for Shaq's departure, but you're delusional if you think Jordan wouldn't have had any ego issues playing alongside a player with Shaq's star power.

link (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070326&sportCat=nba&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos2)

In conclusion, whether anyone likes it or not, Kobe's the next MJ. Like the article says, MJ was guarded by midgets (Dumars is what, 6'2"? Starks was 6'3.").

And I'll contend 'til the day I die that MJ's the most overrated player of all time. Not because he wasn't great, but because he's the immovable force at the top of the argument of "greatest ever." I actually have him as the second-greatest ever, but most people have it in their heads that he was just so much better than everyone else, nobody can touch him.

[bulldogman06]

yea i saw that espn article, i enjoyed checking it out

[Hansum Stranger]

The rules have changed in todays game to make the players look better. How many traveling calls would of went against Jordan or Kobe in the NBA in the 70's or early 80's?

The NBA lets players get away with to much these days. Imagine if Wilt could lower his shoulder in the low post and run over everyone like Shaq does. He would of averaged 50pts a game if the rules then are like they are now.

I'll take Bird, Magic, Wilt and Oscar as the best 4 ever, in no particular order.

[themsu97]

once again Russ... we think alike... Jordan was a great player but the media now a days has a fixation that this is the greatest whatever of all time... everything is the greatest or somebody is the next great thing... it makes me sick...
my comment to people about jordan is that I tell them that what did Jordan do without Pippen? the two went together and they helped make each other better...
and Wilt in today's game would be dominate...

[Fotbol]

If you hadn't noticed, Kobe patterns his game after MR.23.

[coach]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Sorry coach. I tend agree with you on most stuff, but I disagree with you wholeheartedly on this one.


a. I definitely wouldn't say that. Kobe made Smush Parker and Luke Walton decent NBA players.


b. While Jordan may have been a little better in the post, Kobe's every bit the defender Jordan was. He's one of the top two defensive wings in the NBA, along with Ron Artest (and he may be better than Artest). The only other guys who should even be in the same breath as Kobe are Trenton Hassell, Bruce Bowen (who's fading quickly), Chauncey Billups, and Tayshaun Prince. And they've got a LOOOONG ways to go.

The other guys you may want to bring up right here: Dwayne Wade, Andrei Kirilenko, and Jason Kidd (ever since his knee injury) are all overrated as defenders. Besides, Kobe's been a First-Team All-NBA Defensive player four years (and three of the last four) and a Second-Teamer twice. That means that out of the seven previous years he's been a full-time starter, he's made the cut six times.


c. He's only become more selfish recently, after the Zen Master asked him to be. LeBron, Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, and Gilbert Arenas all average about the same number of shots per game that Kobe does, but he leads everyone in scoring (even though Anthony plays lower and takes more shots than him) and has almost as many assists (5.4 per game, good for 24th in the league from a 'shoot first' guard) as LeBron and Arenas, both of whom set up their team's offense most of the time.


d. Twice, but both times with the Wiz. Here's a better question: Mike came into the league at what, 21 years of age? From 21 years on, how many times did Kobe miss the playoffs? And was there a time, from '84 through '98, that the Eastern Conference was anywhere near as dominant as the Western Conference has been since MJ's second retirement?

Kobe's dominance has come in the most dominant era for a single conference ever. And he's playing in that conference.



e. None. How many championships did Jordan win without one of the five most underrated and 50 (maybe even 35) greatest players of all time?



f. It's funny, we live in what's coming to be known as the "Information Age," but the info we get tends to skew history. To this day, our nation still believes the Civil War was started because of slavery (it was taxation, started primarily by the Tariff of Abominations... slavery wasn't even an issue in the war until the Emancipation Proclamation was issued over a year after the war started), we still believe we were the good guys in WWI (assassinated Austro-Hungarian Archduke Francis Ferdinand was MLK long before the American Civil Rights movement... we also went to the aid of the side who killed more Americans and sunk more American ships than the Germans... and the Treaty of Versailles was a horrible way to screw over an entire nation and plunge them into the worst modern depression ever because of two countries' selfish interests), and the media has forgotten and discarded an era of the NBA that they failed to cover.

The NBA was a second-rate professional league until Magic-Bird came along. Before that, the League was in financial ruins, desperately close to bankruptcy. Both MLB and the NFL got analysts for the games, and ESPN was quick to cover both leagues when they came on the scene at the end of the 70's.

Newspapers and hoopsters who watched and played against Mike will tell you he's the best ever until they're blue in the face. Red Auerbach, John Ramsey, the late George Mikan, and most of the old guard aren't as quick to agree.

See above for my reasons as to why Bill Russell may not be the "best" of all time, but he is the "greatest" of all time.

good post but come on dont tell me sacottie was underrated and a top 35 best player...

[Phil C]

Man with the way he is going he may surpass MJ as the greatest ever!

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Hansum Stranger
The rules have changed in todays game to make the players look better. How many traveling calls would of went against Jordan or Kobe in the NBA in the 70's or early 80's?

The NBA lets players get away with to much these days. Imagine if Wilt could lower his shoulder in the low post and run over everyone like Shaq does. He would of averaged 50pts a game if the rules then are like they are now.

I'll take Bird, Magic, Wilt and Oscar as the best 4 ever, in no particular order.
Then they probably wouldn't have traveled as much, but their talent is unquestionable. Like I said, I still think Jordan's the second-greatest ever.

Great points, though.


Originally posted by themsu97
once again Russ... we think alike... Jordan was a great player but the media now a days has a fixation that this is the greatest whatever of all time... everything is the greatest or somebody is the next great thing... it makes me sick...
my comment to people about jordan is that I tell them that what did Jordan do without Pippen? the two went together and they helped make each other better...
and Wilt in today's game would be dominate...
Like I said, the Bulls only won two fewer games in '94 (the year they were led by Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong) than the year before. Sure, MJ was the difference between them being a championship team and a fringe-elite team, but they were still an elite team.

And Wilt reminds me of a more skilled David Robinson. In my mind, those are the two most skilled centers to ever play the game. If The Admiral could dominate the way he did, there's no question that Wilt could do the same.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Fotbol
If you hadn't noticed, Kobe patterns his game after MR.23.
Absolutely. Doesn't mean he can't wind up being better than MJ, though.


Originally posted by coach
good post but come on dont tell me sacottie was underrated and a top 35 best player...
Like I said, you have every right to believe the way you do, and I always respect your opinion, but here's mine.


Originally posted by big daddy russ
Jordan retires
'93-'94 Bulls' Record (55-27, Finished 2nd in the Central, Lost in the Eastern Conf Semis to the Knicks... and took the Knicks, the Eastern Conference's eventual representative in the Finals, the distance... That's right, seven games)
The reason Jordan's so celebrated is because he was a G/F who could dominate and determine the outcome of a game. Doesn't this tell you that Pippen's essentially the same kind of player?

Also, remember that Pippen was dubbed the "leader" of that first, great Blazers team that put all that talent together on one court. Granted, he never fully assumed that role because of the contrast between his way of doing things and the rest of the "JailBlazers'" ways of doing things.

This was the lineup that he was dubbed the "leader" of
PG: Damon Stoudamire ('95-'96 NBA Rookie of the Year, though he was never an All-Star... always overshadowed by his teammates)
SG: Steve Smith (All-Star the previous year)
SF: Pippen (Future HOFer)
PF: Rasheed Wallace (3-time All-Star and one of the most talented PF's to ever come through the NBA)
C: Arvydas Sabonis (The only 'serviceable' center in the NBA during this era this side of David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, and Shaq)

Backups:
PG Greg Anthony (The guy on ESPN... OK, so maybe he was never great, but he was a solid backup)
G/F Bonzi Wells (We all know about his talent... he was a backup on this team)
F Detlef Schrempf (3-time All-Star, one-time All-NBA)
PF/C Brian Grant (I'm sure you remember this guy... averaged a double-double most of his career, a banger inside)
PF/C Jermaine O'Neal (OK, he didn't blossom until the following year, when he got to Indiana, but he's still a six-time All-Star and three-time All-NBA player)


Pippen was the "leader" of this group of insane talent, possibly the greatest single collection of talent the NBA's ever seen. Hell, they traded away O'Neal because they didn't have enough room for him. Just one more reason I believe Pippen really was that good.