So lets say Jerry Jones NEVER bought the Cowboys

[Txbroadcaster]

Seeing how many people say they used to love the Cowboys UNTIL Jerry Jones became owner, then lets play a game

Lets say the Cowboys were never sold in the late 80's..what would have happened up to this point?

Me..They still would have had Irvin, and Aikman would have still been drafted by Dallas..BUT

There would have been NO Walker deal, and Landry would NEVER have changed his schemes.

They would continue to struggle thru the 90's with a decent year every once in awhile.

Landry would have stayed around until 93 or so, then a massive rebuild..BUT without the deluge of draft picks the Walker trade gave them it would have been to little to late and the 90's would have seen Dallas win NO SB or even make one.

[pirate4state]

Not that I'm one of those fans, but let me get my magic 8 ball :D

Would the Cowboys won a superbowl? - Try again later

[Maroon87]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Seeing how many people say they used to love the Cowboys UNTIL Jerry Jones became owner, then lets play a game

Lets say the Cowboys were never sold in the late 80's..what would have happened up to this point?

Me..They still would have had Irvin, and Aikman would have still been drafted by Dallas..BUT

There would have been NO Walker deal, and Landry would NEVER have changed his schemes.

They would continue to struggle thru the 90's with a decent year every once in awhile.

Landry would have stayed around until 93 or so, then a massive rebuild..BUT without the deluge of draft picks the Walker trade gave them it would have been to little to late and the 90's would have seen Dallas win NO SB or even make one.


Whoa!! You're making WAY too much sense...;)

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Seeing how many people say they used to love the Cowboys UNTIL Jerry Jones became owner, then lets play a game

Lets say the Cowboys were never sold in the late 80's..what would have happened up to this point?

Me..They still would have had Irvin, and Aikman would have still been drafted by Dallas..BUT

There would have been NO Walker deal, and Landry would NEVER have changed his schemes.

They would continue to struggle thru the 90's with a decent year every once in awhile.

Landry would have stayed around until 93 or so, then a massive rebuild..BUT without the deluge of draft picks the Walker trade gave them it would have been to little to late and the 90's would have seen Dallas win NO SB or even make one.


TXB....All of this may have indeed come to pass and changes would inevitably have had to be made. You've heard the gripes of old guard charter Cowboys fans a thousand times about the firing of Tom Landry. That is the core issue that a lot of old timers cannot forget. It was not that Jerry Jones was hated because of his personality and gunslinger ways, but rather because of the way things were handled in the transition.

The Dallas Cowboys prior to 1990 were the epitome of NFL franchises as far as team image and management were concerned. From the top to the bottom they were nothing but "class" and it was reflected at all levels---and especially by Tom Landry---"the only coach the Cowboys have ever had".
In the minds of many lifelong Cowboys fans, that pride and image were tarnished by Jerry Jones' behavior in the transition. That "bad taste" in the mouth still lingers today regardless of anything Jerry Jones will ever accomplish with the Dallas Cowboys. That may not be right in the view of many---but that is the way it is.

Can you imagine the furor in Green Bay if Vince Lombardi had lived long enough to have still been coaching the Packers and was let go unceremonisously by a new owner because he refused to step down when the Packers began to decline?

I am not saying that Tom Landry was right to have been inflexible with regard to stepping down, but he was the "legend" and Jerry Jones was the rich, new, out-of-town kid on the block.

But, I do agree that Jerry Jones was in a "no win" situation as far as Tom Landry was concerned. He should have taken more time.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
TXB....All of this may have indeed come to pass and changes would inevitably have had to be made. You've heard the gripes of old guard charter Cowboys fans a thousand times about the firing of Tom Landry. That is the core issue that a lot of old timers cannot forget. It was not that Jerry Jones was hated because of his personality and gunslinger ways, but rather because of the way things were handled in the transition.

The Dallas Cowboys prior to 1990 were the epitome of NFL franchises as far as team image and management were concerned. From the top to the bottom they were nothing but "class" and it was reflected at all levels---and especially by Tom Landry---"the only coach the Cowboys have ever had".
In the minds of many lifelong Cowboys fans, that pride and image were tarnished by Jerry Jones' behavior in the transition. That "bad taste" in the mouth still lingers today regardless of anything Jerry Jones will ever accomplish with the Dallas Cowboys. That may not be right in the view of many---but that is the way it is.

Can you imagine the furor in Green Bay if Vince Lombardi had lived long enough to have still been coaching the Packers and was let go unceremonisously by a new owner because he refused to step down when the Packers began to decline?

I am not saying that Tom Landry was right to have been inflexible with regard to stepping down, but he was the "legend" and Jerry Jones was the rich, new, out-of-town kid on the block.

Here is the sad thing

If Jerry Jones would not have been so set on doing things right and flying down to Austin to visit with Landry face-to-face then I think it would have all thought of in a different way.

Jones was naive in thinking him and Jimmy Johnson could go out to dinner and not start a furor..BUT when Bright asked if Jones wanted Tex or old regime to fire Landry..Jones said NO..That he would do it because it was his job.

So by Jones not allowing someone else to be the "bad guy" and his decision to instead of just calling Landry BEFORE the fateful dinner with Johnson, then I think the perception of the whole deal would be viewed different

Either way..Jones MADE THE RIGHT DECISION..And If "oldtimers" cannot admit that, then they are just being bitter and not accepting that Landry was no longer able to lead a NFL team

[Chris Hart]

Jerry =Just win baby! I don't particularly love Jerry Jones, but I LOVE IT that he's all about winning. If I had to pick either the old Cowboy regime or the current one to raise my children, it would definately be the old regime. But, if I wanted to win a Superbowl, It would definately be Jerry's regime. Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, just bring another one home in 07!:)

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Here is the sad thing

If Jerry Jones would not have been so set on doing things right and flying down to Austin to visit with Landry face-to-face then I think it would have all thought of in a different way.

Jones was naive in thinking him and Jimmy Johnson could go out to dinner and not start a furor..BUT when Bright asked if Jones wanted Tex or old regime to fire Landry..Jones said NO..That he would do it because it was his job.

So by Jones not allowing someone else to be the "bad guy" and his decision to instead of just calling Landry BEFORE the fateful dinner with Johnson, then I think the perception of the whole deal would be viewed different

Either way..Jones MADE THE RIGHT DECISION..And If "oldtimers" cannot admit that, then they are just being bitter and not accepting that Landry was no longer able to lead a NFL team

Again, I certainly cannot find fault with your logic as far as the future of the Cowboys was concerned---history has proven you right. Old Cowboys fans do not reason with their head---they sometimes reason with their "hearts" and harken to a time "back when" that I'm sure most of you young guys are tired of hearing about. The pre-Jones Dallas Cowboys were not as much of a physical entity as much as they were an idea---a "standard" of excellence, like the Knights of the Round Table if you will, and old timers will not ever let loose of that romantic image.

[Phil C]

I once read where Tom Landry said he wasn't bitter about being fired since Jones was the new owner and had the right to make the decision. What he was bitter about he said was that Jones brought the GM Tex Schram who worked with Coach Landry for a long time with him when he fired him. He said they shouldn't have made Tex come along espeically since Tex was to be fired a little later.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Again, I certainly cannot find fault with your logic as far as the future of the Cowboys was concerned---history has proven you right. Old Cowboys fans do not reason with their head---they sometimes reason with their "hearts" and harken to a time "back when" that I'm sure most of you young guys are tired of hearing about. The pre-Jones Dallas Cowboys were not as much of a physical entity as much as they were an idea---a "standard" of excellence, like the Knights of the Roundtable if you will, and old timers will not ever let loose of that romantic image.

Hey I hold those same romantic thoughts of the Old guard Cowboys as well..I grew up on that era and it will always hold a soft spot in my heart....BUT

I dont pretend there were no problems with players in that era either..or that alot of things that the Cowboys did back then was for reasons to make more money

That is the BIGGEST problem I have with old guard fans..They act like anything the Cowboys did in the past was ok..and anything the Cowboys do now or in the 90's was sooo bad..and that Landry would not have let it happen and all that.

The 70's and 80's Cowboys had their fare share of scandal, but it was a different world back then so it was not on splashed everywhere

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Hey I hold those same romantic thoughts of the Old guard Cowboys as well..I grew up on that era and it will always hold a soft spot in my heart....BUT

I dont pretend there were no problems with players in that era either..or that alot of things that the Cowboys did back then was for reasons to make more money

That is the BIGGEST problem I have with old guard fans..They act like anything the Cowboys did in the past was ok..and anything the Cowboys do now or in the 90's was sooo bad..and that Landry would not have let it happen and all that.

The 70's and 80's Cowboys had their fare share of scandal, but it was a different world back then so it was not on splashed everywhere

WORD!

"and that's all I'm saying" ;)

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Hey I hold those same romantic thoughts of the Old guard Cowboys as well..I grew up on that era and it will always hold a soft spot in my heart....BUT

I dont pretend there were no problems with players in that era either..or that alot of things that the Cowboys did back then was for reasons to make more money

That is the BIGGEST problem I have with old guard fans..They act like anything the Cowboys did in the past was ok..and anything the Cowboys do now or in the 90's was sooo bad..and that Landry would not have let it happen and all that.

The 70's and 80's Cowboys had their fare share of scandal, but it was a different world back then so it was not on splashed everywhere

I think we understand each other very well, TXB. We oldtimers just have a very hard time accepting the "But, what have you done for me lately" mentality of today's hyper-speed world. And so it has always been in the modern era and probably will always be---but we don't have to like it. :D

[RMAC]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
TXB....All of this may have indeed come to pass and changes would inevitably have had to be made. You've heard the gripes of old guard charter Cowboys fans a thousand times about the firing of Tom Landry. That is the core issue that a lot of old timers cannot forget. It was not that Jerry Jones was hated because of his personality and gunslinger ways, but rather because of the way things were handled in the transition.

The Dallas Cowboys prior to 1990 were the epitome of NFL franchises as far as team image and management were concerned. From the top to the bottom they were nothing but "class" and it was reflected at all levels---and especially by Tom Landry---"the only coach the Cowboys have ever had".
In the minds of many lifelong Cowboys fans, that pride and image were tarnished by Jerry Jones' behavior in the transition. That "bad taste" in the mouth still lingers today regardless of anything Jerry Jones will ever accomplish with the Dallas Cowboys. That may not be right in the view of many---but that is the way it is.

Can you imagine the furor in Green Bay if Vince Lombardi had lived long enough to have still been coaching the Packers and was let go unceremonisously by a new owner because he refused to step down when the Packers began to decline?

I am not saying that Tom Landry was right to have been inflexible with regard to stepping down, but he was the "legend" and Jerry Jones was the rich, new, out-of-town kid on the block.

But, I do agree that Jerry Jones was in a "no win" situation as far as Tom Landry was concerned. He should have taken more time.

I'm not calling you out or anything Bull, because we all know that your football knowledge greatly surpasses mine, but just a little fun fact for you, I'm almost 100% certain that the fans of Green Bay own the team and I don't thnk they'd let their team have a GM that would've done that. Me personally, I've never really known anything BUT Jerry Jones. It makes me sad when I hear about the Golden Days of the Cowboys that I am too young to remember them. I will say though that TXBC makes a good point.

[SintonFan_inAustin]

Before Jones Cowboys had appear in 5 Super Bowls and bringing home the Trophy twice. Great streak of consecutive playoff appearences going into the mid 80's. Great years but wouldnt want anything changed as Jones has Brought Dallas fans 3 Super Bowl wins in 3 tries. Not many playoff games since then but for 3 years u can say the Cowboys were the best as compare to 2 years before JERRY:thumbsup:

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by RMAC
I'm not calling you out or anything Bull, because we all know that your football knowledge greatly surpasses mine, but just a little fun fact for you, I'm almost 100% certain that the fans of Green Bay own the team and I don't thnk they'd let their team have a GM that would've done that. Me personally, I've never really known anything BUT Jerry Jones. It makes me sad when I hear about the Golden Days of the Cowboys that I am too young to remember them. I will say though that TXBC makes a good point.

No prob, RMAC. You are quite correct about the Packers' ownership. I was just using a little poetic "license" in my Lombardi analogy. However, I must point out that if you ever do this again, I will have Adidas come live with you. :D

[RMAC]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
No prob, RMAC. You are quite correct about the Packers' ownership. I was just using a little poetic "license" in my Lombardi analogy. However, I must point out that if you ever do this again, I will have Adidas come live with you. :D

Now that's just not cool.:D

[JR2004]

The girls won't win another Super Bowl as long as Jones continues to be the GM. I sincerely hope he lives to be a 120.

[Buccaneer]

Lombardi did step down as coach and became the GM of the Packers. And 1 year later he left and became head coach of the Redskins.

[CenTexSports]

As one of the older ones that will not be a fan until Jones leaves, I will give you my answer.

1) I was OK with Tom being let go. It was the classless way that it was handled that I took offense with.
2) I think the previous ownership had a great business plan for running a team and I don't like Jerry's hands on approach. He is not George Halas.

I also moved out of state to Missouri in 1982 and it was an easy move of loyality to the Chiefs and Lamar Hunt another classy owner with a great business approach to running his team.

Now, I want to root for the Cowboys because I like Wade and Romo but Jerry and TO more than offset these two. For now I will root for NO, Tennessee, Indy, and NY (I like Eli).

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by CenTexSports
As one of the older ones that will not be a fan until Jones leaves, I will give you my answer.

1) I was OK with Tom being let go. It was the classless way that it was handled that I took offense with.
2) I think the previous ownership had a great business plan for running a team and I don't like Jerry's hands on approach. He is not George Halas.

I also moved out of state to Missouri in 1982 and it was an easy move of loyality to the Chiefs and Lamar Hunt another classy owner with a great business approach to running his team.

Now, I want to root for the Cowboys because I like Wade and Romo but Jerry and TO more than offset these two. For now I will root for NO, Tennessee, Indy, and NY (I like Eli).

Again I ask HOW was it classless? Jones could have fired him on the phone..or had Bright do it, or make Tex go alone..instead he flew down to meet with Landry face to face. It was not pretty but he took the PR hit to do the right thing and meet with him in person

[burnet44]

yes Im sure many of you know my feelings
but many of you just dont understand
here is the deal

1. yes Tom was fired by the owner-a real coach buy a guy with money

2. tom has forgot more football than all of us combined will ever know-so before you talk out of your a$$-you have no clue-I have coached 30 years and Tom's lil finger knows more than I do.
no the game didnt pass him by-he was an inovator of the game
he was too loyal to older players that was his mistake


3.I am not niave enough to think stuff went on while tom was there. guys shot up to play all the time drugs are drugs but I do think the "HOUSE" mike, nate, and tunini ran is the same btw where is tuniai now? dead yeah jerry AND jimmy and barry let it go on cuz they could play. Im sure there were parties in tom's day as illustrated by "north dallas forty" just different time but realitively alike

4. the walker deal was Jimmy jerry had no clue-thats why he kept Tex on-till he didnt need him anymore Jimmy was the football guy not Jerry and that kills jerry

5. the real deal is this JERRY is not a coach. no amount of money can buy that. you have to be one its a job not a thing you can buy
I am/was a coach-you have a guy with money aka the school board thinking they know something. THE ONLY REASON IS THAT HE HAS MONEY. money dont buy you spit-yeah a team but no not really a team CLINT had money he wasnt the coach meddiling owners kill teams like school boards kill programs
some of u who know everything will dispute this
it is the truth deny it all you want

6. everyone talks as if jerry is this hell bent on winning
yeah sure he talks about it but thats not it
look at his moves-its about jerry-jerrys world-TO signing for pub-deion taking 25m bonus "yeah jerry I wont tackle anybody but Ill go over the middle to catch passes" and ill quit stand around
yeah jerry is a shrewd guy
dont spend money on a new 1B stadium jerry
get players to win
last I looked players win not stadiums
read the DMN about the cotton bowl

7. he cant win w/o a real coach jimmy was-there is a lot i didnt like about jimmy-criminal U-but there is one thing he can do as good as anybody I ve ever seen-evaluate talent-who can play and who cant
bill is a real coach-jerry killed him
jerry let jimmy coach because he was new and had a lot to do because he didnt have a clue about being an owner
let jimmy coach-Ive got enough to do
once he got his feet wet
well "anybody can coach this team I can get anybody"
smooth move x-lax

8. many of you have no clue about the past but condem it
so you opinion count as nothing

I remember when I was in 7th grade the Cowboys lost a preseason game to GB-I read about it in school that day and I felt sick-yes I did love the Boys-even did a paper about them for a history paper
They were larger than life


9. jerry was elected into the texas sports HOF last week-he did an interview here locally and spoke that he was the caretaker of the cowdoys-bs if he was give up 51% of the ownership and the GM spot and do like GB has-team is owned by the share holders
that will never happen-he wants control-thats why he has it
dont be fooled by what he says-he is the gm too that should tell you what is really going on


10. he is a huckster not a caretaker of the game-and mentioning him with Halas is BS-Halas made the league-Hunt-Myra-Roselle-ect made the league-jerry is out for jerry-which is ok-he owns the team and I know he has to make money to stay in business
he has run the team to where it is now
he is responsible
COACH Johnson got him 3 SB jerry has done the rest


fire away

Jerry will never be a coach
just a guy with money

want to be a coach
sell the team and get a job

money cant buy everything

ok blast me

[Txbroadcaster]

I wont blast you, some of your points are valid..BUT

Just because Tom Landry knew more about football than all of us combined does not mean the game had not passed him by. The team had been down since 1984 except for a very FLUKE 1985 teams that somehow won the NFC East even though they lost one game 44-0 in the regular season and another one 56-21

The 86 team started fast, but Danny White got hurt and folded...After that it was terrible, and he said time and time again he did not need to change anything..Well sorry but it was time to change.

You say Johnson and only Johnson did the Walker trade that is debatable, but I will give you that one...but Jones was the one who wanted Charles Haley..and we all know how much of an impact he was

Of course at one point Jimmy Johnson wanted Steve Walsh as his QB and not Aikman, so he was not perfect eith

You mention Sanders..like him or not he was a huge factor to the Boys winning the title oin 95

Like I said alot of your points are valid, but I see no reason to say some people's opinion dont matter..Why not?? NJust because they dont agree with you?

[burnet44]

lost to the then St. Louis cardnials 38-0 at the cotton bowl
won the SB

its not that they dont agree
they talk as though they know the past
I saw it
like many others

I said their opinion about the past doesnt count
since they didnt see it

you have to see it
this is not something you can read about
the past

talk all you want about now cuz u saw it

but you really know nothing about the past

same with me

I didnt see the packers lose to the eagles in 60

I saw what the Pack did after that

[Bull's-eye]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Landry would have stayed around until 93 or so, then a massive rebuild..BUT without the deluge of draft picks the Walker trade gave them it would have been to little to late and the 90's would have seen Dallas win NO SB or even make one.

Being a long time Cowboy fan, I have watched the ups and downs of this organization. Coach Landry was a football genius, he has been credited with inventing the 4-3 defense and the flex defense. It has been said that, after inventing the Flex Defense, he then invented the offense to score on it, reviving the man-in-motion and the shotgun formation. But Landry's biggest contribution in this area was the use of "pre-shifting" where the offense would shift from one formation to the other before the snap of the ball. Landy had great vision, he converted RB Mel Renfro into one of the greatest DB's ever, he moved TE Rayfield Wright to OT and he drafted a track star by the name of Bob Hayes. He also used a late round pick on a QB out of the Naval Academy, knowing he wouldn't play for about 5 years.
Landry did have his share of problems. The early Cowboys were labled as a team that couldn't win the big games. The Cowboys had a stretch of very disappointing playoff losses, but finally cleared that hurdle with a couple of Super Bowl wins.

In the mid 80's, it appeared the game had finally passed Landry by. As much as I admired Landry, it was time for a change. Yes, the Walker trade was very instrumental in the Cowboys becoming the team of the 90's, but let's not forget that trade would of never been possible if not for Coach Landry. It was his staff that gambled a 5th round pick on the USFL star, knowing that there was a good chance of that league folding. Another forgotten trade was the little trade where Dallas moved up a few spots to draft Emmitt Smith. Without Emmitt, it's very possible Dallas would not of won 3 more Super Bowls, muchless one.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Bull's-eye
Being a long time Cowboy fan, I have watched the ups and downs of this organization. Coach Landry was a football genius, he has been credited with inventing the 4-3 defense and the flex defense. It has been said that, after inventing the Flex Defense, he then invented the offense to score on it, reviving the man-in-motion and the shotgun formation. But Landry's biggest contribution in this area was the use of "pre-shifting" where the offense would shift from one formation to the other before the snap of the ball. Landy had great vision, he converted RB Mel Renfro into one of the greatest DB's ever, he moved TE Rayfield Wright to OT and he drafted a track star by the name of Bob Hayes. He also used a late round pick on a QB out of the Naval Academy, knowing he wouldn't play for about 5 years.
Landry did have his share of problems. The early Cowboys were labled as a team that couldn't win the big games. The Cowboys had a stretch of very disappointing playoff losses, but finally cleared that hurdle with a couple of Super Bowl wins.

In the mid 80's, it appeared the game had finally passed Landry by. As much as I admired Landry, it was time for a change. Yes, the Walker trade was very instrumental in the Cowboys becoming the team of the 90's, but let's not forget that trade would of never been possible if not for Coach Landry. It was his staff that gambled a 5th round pick on the USFL star, knowing that there was a good chance of that league folding. Another forgotten trade was the little trade where Dallas moved up a few spots to draft Emmitt Smith. Without Emmitt, it's very possible Dallas would not of won 3 more Super Bowls, muchless one.

I will NEVER claim Landry was anything but a genuis..He was a icon and as a kid he WAS the Cowboys..I hate how in a debate about this is becomes your a Landry person or against..I was a Landry fan thru and thru..but I like you realized it was time for a change

About the Emmit deal..If James Francis is not taken by Cincy THAT is who Jimmy Johnson REALLY wanted..but Francis was off the board, so they took Smith instead

[Old Dog]

Has anyone considered how many more Super Bowls Dallas might have won had Jerry's ego not overshadowed Jimmy Johnson and he stayed on as coach. Personally, I think 2 more probably!?!?!?

[burnet44]

Originally posted by Old Dog
Has anyone considered how many more Super Bowls Dallas might have won had Jerry's ego not overshadowed Jimmy Johnson and he stayed on as coach. Personally, I think 2 more probably!?!?!?

Im saying that
jerry mucked up a good thing
but no I RUN THE SHOW


ANYBODY can coach
ITS SO EASY AN OWNER CAN DO IT

sounds like a Geiko commercial

[Bull's-eye]

Originally posted by Old Dog
Has anyone considered how many more Super Bowls Dallas might have won had Jerry's ego not overshadowed Jimmy Johnson and he stayed on as coach. Personally, I think 2 more probably!?!?!?

I'm not sure who had the biggest ego, but it was very disappointing that these 2 men couldn't stay together and re-write NFL history.

[Bull's-eye]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
About the Emmit deal..If James Francis is not taken by Cincy THAT is who Jimmy Johnson REALLY wanted..but Francis was off the board, so they took Smith instead

Yes, the Cowboys wanted Francis but he went to Cincy at #12. When Emmitt was still around at #17, Dallas decided to trade up from their 21st spot and draft him with the 17th pick. Sometimes successful teams just get lucky, and aren't we glad that Cincy drafted Francis?

[IHStangFan]

my problem w/ Jones is not that he got rid of Landry, etc. I can't stand the fact that he thinks he's got to be the owner, coach, and GM. If he'd keep his arse in his lux. box, and off the field, let the coaches and GM make team decisions like who to pick up/draft, etc. and quit running off coaches like Johnson because of ego conflicts...I'd still be a Cowboys fan.

That and he's just scary to look at :eek:

[themsu97]

the problem with Jerry is that he could have handled the situation with Landry a lot better and even he admits it... the other problem is that he is in way over his head on trying to handle the team and it is too much about him... and not the team...