Interesting Commentary on Barack Hussein Obama's plan for the economy

[Pudlugger]

Jewish World Review Feb. 22, 2007 / 4 Adar, 5767

Priceless politics, Part III

By Thomas Sowell




http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | Senator Barack Obama recently said, "let's allow our unions and their organizers to lift up this country's middle class again."


Ironically, he said it at a time when Detroit automakers have been laying off unionized workers by the tens of thousands, while Toyota has been hiring tens of thousands of non-union American automobile workers.


Labor unions, like the government, can change prices — in this case, the price of labor — but without changing the underlying reality that prices convey.


Neither unions nor minimum wage laws change the productivity of workers. All they can do is forbid the employer from paying less than what the government or the unions want the employer to pay.


When that is more than the labor in question produces, some workers who are perfectly capable become "unemployable" only because of wages set above the level of their productivity.


In the short run — which is what matters to politicians and to union leaders, who both get elected in the short run — workers who are already on the payroll may get a windfall gain before the market adjusts.


But, sooner or later, the chickens come home to roost. They have been coming home to roost big time in the automobile industry, where hundreds of thousands of jobs have been lost over the years.


It is not that people don't want automobiles. Toyota is selling plenty of cars made in its American factories with non-union labor.


Some claim that it is automation, rather than union wages and benefits, that is responsible for declining employment among the Detroit auto workers.


But why are automobile companies buying expensive automated machinery, except that labor has been made expensive enough to make that their next best option?


Senator Obama is being hailed as the newest and freshest face on the American political scene. But he is advocating some of the oldest fallacies, just as if it was the 1960s again, or as if he has learned nothing and forgotten nothing since then.


He thinks higher teacher pay is the answer to the abysmal failures of our education system, which is already far more expensive than the education provided in countries whose students have for decades consistently outperformed ours on international tests.


Senator Obama is for making college "affordable," as if he has never considered that government subsidies push up tuition, just as government subsidies push up agricultural prices, the price of medical care and other prices.


He is also for "alternative fuels," without the slightest thought about the prices of those fuels or the implications of those prices. All this is the old liberal agenda from years past, old wine in new bottles, a new face with old ideas that have been tried and failed repeatedly over the past generation.


Senator Obama is not unique among politicians who want to control prices, as if that is controlling the underlying reality behind the prices.


There is much current political interest in so-called "predatory lending" — the charging of high interest rates for loans to poor people or to people with low credit ratings.


Nothing will be easier politically than passing laws to limit interest rates or make it harder for lenders to recover their money — and nothing will cause credit to dry up faster to low-income people, forcing some of them to have to turn to illegal loan sharks, who have their own methods of collecting.


The underlying reality that politicians do not want to face is that here, too, prices convey a reality that is not subject to political control. That reality is that it is far riskier to lend to some people than to others.


That is why the price of a loan — the interest rate — is far higher to some people than to others. Far from making extra profits on riskier loans, many lenders have lost millions of dollars on such loans and some have gone bankrupt.


But politics is not about facts. It is about what politicians can get people to believe.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

I think that the way to go is to not have labor unions to protect workers rights and give tax cuts to the wealthy. Also, we should go back to lassiez faire with little government involvement in the economy, support supply-side economics, and continue on the current course of running our country into debt. That would be the best situation for all Americans.

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I think that the way to go is to not have labor unions to protect workers rights and give tax cuts to the wealthy. Also, we should go back to lassiez faire with little government involvement in the economy, support supply-side economics, and continue on the current course of running our country into debt. That would be the best situation for all Americans.

Well said. :clap: While we're at it, let's cut medical benefits for the elderly and reinstate the draft. :D

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Well said. :clap: While we're at it, let's cut medical benefits for the elderly and reinstate the draft. :D

Exactly, so that way we can go right back into the Gilded Age and then start a series of events that mimic that of the Great Depression. Wouldn't that be swell? Also, since we're not going to have any government control on the market, let's repeal all of the anti-trust laws and allow monopolies, because hey, it's a free market, right?

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I think that the way to go is to not have labor unions to protect workers rights and give tax cuts to the wealthy. Also, we should go back to lassiez faire with little government involvement in the economy, support supply-side economics, and continue on the current course of running our country into debt. That would be the best situation for all Americans.

I'm delighted to see that you have finally "seen the light", BBDE. :D I just hope you are still joking in a couple of years.....

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I think that the way to go is to not have labor unions to protect workers rights and give tax cuts to the wealthy. Also, we should go back to lassiez faire with little government involvement in the economy, support supply-side economics, and continue on the current course of running our country into debt. That would be the best situation for all Americans.

And your solution is???? Oh that's right...Dems don't like to put forth economic solutions! ;)

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
And your solution is???? Oh that's right...Dems don't like to put forth economic solutions! ;)

Yeah, the New Deal and Great Society programs did nothing to solve economic problems for America. They're the worst possible things that could have happened and did nothing to pull America out of great economic lows or help to support the American people. You're a Rembrandt, you know that?

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Exactly, so that way we can go right back into the Gilded Age and then start a series of events that mimic that of the Great Depression. Wouldn't that be swell? Also, since we're not going to have any government control on the market, let's repeal all of the anti-trust laws and allow monopolies, because hey, it's a free market, right?

Anything in favor of pure capitalism! :D Lets tell China to kiss off and bring back sweat shops so that my future five year-old can get a job and help pay the rent! We must protect free enterprize at all costs!

[Txbroadcaster]

When unions first began they were great for the workers..they protected them, forced companies to pay better and all that

Then a sad thing happen..The Union became like a government, with corruption and greed causing the Union to no longer be about the best interest of the worker, but the best interest if the union itself.

That is not even taking in account the mobster influence.

If run right and remembering that it is there for the WORKER first and foremost, then a Union is still great.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Anything in favor of pure capitalism! :D Lets tell China to kiss off and bring back sweat shops so that my future five year-old can get a job and help pay the rent! We must protect free enterprize at all costs!

Exactly. Those tiny little arms can fit into dangerous machinery and help fix them while they're still running. Who cares if a child loses a limb or dies of work-related injuries, it's justified in the pursuit of no government involvement in our workplace.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Yeah, the New Deal and Great Society programs did nothing to solve economic problems for America. They're the worst possible things that could have happened and did nothing to pull America out of great economic lows or help to support the American people. You're a Rembrandt, you know that?

I'm not talking about 70 years ago...I'm talking about today. Today's economic situation is totally different (on local, national, and global levels) than it was during the Great Depression. Come on Gary...try hard now...we now you can make a point if you really put your mind to it! ;)

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
When unions first began they were great for the workers..they protected them, forced companies to pay better and all that

Then a sad thing happen..The Union became like a government, with corruption and greed causing the Union to no longer be about the best interest of the worker, but the best interest if the union itself.

That is not even taking in account the mobster influence.

If run right and remembering that it is there for the WORKER first and foremost, then a Union is still great.

The unions that my family members are parts of still do great things in pursuit of protecting their workers rights. In some cases, you're right, but more often than not, you're incorrect.

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
When unions first began they were great for the workers..they protected them, forced companies to pay better and all that

Then a sad thing happen..The Union became like a government, with corruption and greed causing the Union to no longer be about the best interest of the worker, but the best interest if the union itself.

That is not even taking in account the mobster influence.

If run right and remembering that it is there for the WORKER first and foremost, then a Union is still great.

UNIONS ARE FOR COMMIES! :mad: :mad:

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Exactly. Those tiny little arms can fit into dangerous machinery and help fix them while they're still running. Who cares if a child loses a limb or dies of work-related injuries, it's justified in the pursuit of no government involvement in our workplace.
Which industries are experiencing the biggest failures???

1. Automotive
2. Airline
3. Other manufactured goods

Which industries have the greatest unionized presence?

1. Automotive
2. Airlines
3. Anything else the mob decides to takeover in Chicago and NY/NJ.

[Bullaholic]

Without making a political argument---I will only say that I am delighted that we are having a change in government and all my problems will now be solved. It's going to be extremely interesting when a lot of folks have to play in the game instead of yell at the umpire. Can't wait for the "sweeping revelations" to begin to materialize.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
The unions that my family members are parts of still do great things in pursuit of protecting their workers rights. In some cases, you're right, but more often than not, you're incorrect.

Of course all knowing BBDE has the world figured out and I more often than not am wrong

[BuffyMars]

:eek: :confused: :eek:

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Can't wait for the "sweeping revelations" to begin to materialize.
Waiting for them to materialize in your lifetime is like trying to get over the train tracks in Bridgeport without having to stop for a train...it ain't happenin' :(

[Blastoderm55]

And I'm sick and tired of consumer rights hindering how I do business. If a customer doesn't pay me for his bed, I should have every right to kick down his door in the middle of the night and throw his butt off the mattress and take back my stuff! :mad: He should be so lucky that I do not cut off his hand! Thou shalt not steal!!!

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
I'm not talking about 70 years ago...I'm talking about today. Today's economic situation is totally different (on local, national, and global levels) than it was during the Great Depression. Come on Gary...try hard now...we now you can make a point if you really put your mind to it! ;)

Great Society Programs were introduced by Lyndon Johnson. If these programs were so unpopular, unsuccessful, and unbeneficial, I'm sure that Ronald Reagan, arguably the most conservative president ever, would have got rid of them. As far as modern times go, the argument with Toyota vs. American vehicles is compelling, but Toyota isn't experiencing success simply because they don't have labor unions, it's because they are selling a better and more popular product to the American consumer, and in many cases sales a product for a more competitive price. American companies are losing products because they are losing credibility amongst consumers and are losing the battle in advertising first and foremost.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
And I'm sick and tired of consumer rights hindering how I do business. If a customer doesn't pay me for his bed, I should have every right to kick down his door in the middle of the night and throw his butt off the mattress and take back my stuff! :mad: He should be so lucky that I do not cut off his hand! Thou shalt not steal!!!
Just wait until the "passengers bill of rights" comes to fruition. Then we're really screwed!!! :(

[BuffyMars]

If only I had a dollar for everytime people started "debating" politics on here.

Seriously folks, is it at all possible anymore to talk about YOUR beliefs with passion and without anger?

I am just curious why people get so heated over debates. It is a matter of opinion, something that can't be argued because there is no right or wrong reason. What may be right for you is wrong for others, and vice versa.

Its cool to throw around banter just so long as the name calling is left out of it.

*~Peace~*


:crazy1:

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
but Toyota isn't experiencing success simply because they don't have labor unions, it's because they are selling a better and more popular product to the American consumer, and in many cases sales a product for a more competitive price. American companies are losing products because they are losing credibility amongst consumers and are losing the battle in advertising first and foremost.

uhh one reason is because of union forced wages that drive up the price..Toyota does not have to deal with that so THEY can set their own price

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
And I'm sick and tired of consumer rights hindering how I do business. If a customer doesn't pay me for his bed, I should have every right to kick down his door in the middle of the night and throw his butt off the mattress and take back my stuff! :mad: He should be so lucky that I do not cut off his hand! Thou shalt not steal!!!

We also need to repeal all of the environmental restrictions we have on companies. Ozone? Hell no!

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
uhh one reason is because of union forced wages that drive up the price..Toyota does not have to deal with that so THEY can set their own price

Toyota employees can unionize anytime they want to, and they will eventually. A business gaining foothold in America doesn't have unions materialize overnight. ;)

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Just wait until the "passengers bill of rights" comes to fruition. Then we're really screwed!!! :( .

The last thing this nation needs is more rights, unless we're talking about political stances. :mad:

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
And I'm sick and tired of consumer rights hindering how I do business. If a customer doesn't pay me for his bed, I should have every right to kick down his door in the middle of the night and throw his butt off the mattress and take back my stuff! :mad: He should be so lucky that I do not cut off his hand! Thou shalt not steal!!!

I almost forgot, who needs medical malpractice? That hinders the rights of doctors to do their job however they see fit, and if they are convicted, it keeps them from their jobs and costs them money.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Toyota employees can unionize anytime they want to, and they will eventually. A business gaining foothold in America doesn't have unions materialize overnight. ;)

yea cause all those Wal Mart unions are really taking over

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
We also need to repeal all of the environmental restrictions we have on companies. Ozone? Hell no!

Liberal, commie propoganda!

God invented the Internet!

Al Gore is the DEVIL!!! :mad:

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
.

The last thing this nation needs is more rights, unless we're talking about political stances. :mad:

Rights? We should give up all of them to fight terrorism!

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
yea cause all those Wal Mart unions are really taking over

Wal-Mart closes down stores that try to organize labor unions, but nice try. ;)

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Rights? We should give up all of them to fight terrorism!

The president's job would be a lot easier if this were a dictatorship! :D

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Rights? We should give up all of them to fight terrorism!

That is the funny thing..with a union the individual does not have the rights..the UNION does...If you fall in line with them, then great..but if you dont your protection is GONE, the Union like I said is a government itself and will only help and protect those that always say yes to the union

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
The president's job would be a lot easier if this were a dictatorship! :D

I also think we should invade every country that has the capability of producing nuclear weapons and occupy them. Wait, that's all of them....

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I almost forgot, who needs medical malpractice? That hinders the rights of doctors to do their job however they see fit, and if they are convicted, it keeps them from their jobs and costs them money.

Malpractice shmalpractice. Whoever ended up as a stub probably didn't have insurance anyway and in no way deserved to receive medical attention! :mad:

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
That is the funny thing..with a union the individual does not have the rights..the UNION does...If you fall in line with them, then great..but if you dont your protection is GONE, the Union like I said is a government itself and will only help and protect those that always say yes to the union

Wait, protection against what? The companies laying them off unjustly?

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Great Society Programs were introduced by Lyndon Johnson. If these programs were so unpopular, unsuccessful, and unbeneficial, I'm sure that Ronald Reagan, arguably the most conservative president ever, would have got rid of them. As far as modern times go, the argument with Toyota vs. American vehicles is compelling, but Toyota isn't experiencing success simply because they don't have labor unions, it's because they are selling a better and more popular product to the American consumer, and in many cases sales a product for a more competitive price. American companies are losing products because they are losing credibility amongst consumers and are losing the battle in advertising first and foremost.

The Great Society program had little effect on the economy when Reagan took office. Our country was engulfed by inflation and going through a recession. He was focused on controlling inflation and stabalizing the economy.

yes Toyota has a better product IMO...but it doesn't always matter how many items you sell. If your costs are too high then you lose your profit margin...and thus turn into an unprofitable company. GM ($192 billion in revenes in 05) and Ford ($173 billion) either lost money ($11 bil loss for GM) or barely made a profit ($1.4 billion for Ford). Toyota can take the same sales ($172 billion in FY05) and turn an $11 billion profit. The numbers on the front end don't matter NEAR as much as the ones on the back end! ;)

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Wal-Mart closes down stores that try to organize labor unions, but nice try. ;)

If enough people working at a store wanted a union they could get it done..Wal Mart would not shut down a top producing store...And I worked for them for 4 years total so I kinda know..nice try

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
If enough people working at a store wanted a union they could get it done..Wal Mart would not shut down a top producing store...And I worked for them for 4 years total so I kinda know..nice try

Actually, they have, so nice try.

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
The Great Society program had little effect on the economy when Reagan took office. Our country was engulfed by inflation and going through a recession. He was focused on controlling inflation and stabalizing the economy.

yes Toyota has a better product IMO...but it doesn't always matter how many items you sell. If your costs are too high then you lose your profit margin...and thus turn into an unprofitable company. GM ($192 billion in revenes in 05) and Ford ($173 billion) either lost money ($11 bil loss for GM) or barely made a profit ($1.4 billion for Ford). Toyota can take the same sales ($172 billion in FY05) and turn an $11 billion profit. The numbers on the front end don't matter NEAR as much as the ones on the back end! ;)

Ford should bring back those great exploding tires and put them on all new vehicles until they get their numbers back into the black!

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Actually, they have, so nice try.


I never said they did not...I said they would not close down a top producing store

Does Wal MArt discourage Unions..yes they do..BUT if enough of the workers in the store wanted a union it would happen

Simply put not enough want to be in a union at as given time to ..THAT IS THEIR RIGHT

[Adidas410s]

I again refer back to my comment at the top. Dems love to hate on the current situation...and they are great at identifying the problems...but they don't put forth solutions. I wasn't a big fan of re-electing Bush in 2004...and I waited the entire race for Kerry to put forth a concrete plan for our economy, for social security, for health care, and for the war in Iraq. Instead all I heard was, "We're running record deficits...private savings accounts don't work...and the war in Iraq is a failure; we must take a new course of action." Out of those 4 statements...there were no plans for change!!! :(

[BuffyMars]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Ford should bring back those great exploding tires and put them on all new vehicles until they get their numbers back into the black!

OoooOoooo, *raising hand*...

....waits to be called on....

Yes, Crystal?

"Can we please have back the Pinto?" :nerd:

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Ford should bring back those great exploding tires and put them on all new vehicles until they get their numbers back into the black!

Or just make sure they put the proper amount of air in them. That was Ford's fault for underinflating the tires. They went below Firestone's recommendations to improve the vehicle stability of their SUV's and to reduce rollover risk. Looks like that idea worked out great for them...

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Or just make sure they put the proper amount of air in them. That was Ford's fault for underinflating the tires. They went below Firestone's recommendations to improve the vehicle stability of their SUV's and to reduce rollover risk. Looks like that idea worked out great for them...

Corporations should bear no liability ever! They already make stuff and hire people! That's why they're here! Not to make sure their stuff is actually safe! We have human test subjects as consumers for that! If you roll over, I guess you should have bought a Chevy!

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Corporations should bear no liability ever! They already make stuff and hire people! That's why they're here! Not to make sure their stuff is actually safe! We have human test subjects as consumers for that! If you roll over, I guess you should have bought a Chevy!

true...true...:D

[spiveyrat]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Instead all I heard was, "We're running record deficits...private savings accounts don't work...and the war in Iraq is a failure; we must take a new course of action." Out of those 4 statements...there were no plans for change!!! :(

Don't forget we were also reminded every time his name was mentioned that he was a Vietnam Vet. ;) :thumbsup:

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by spiveyrat
Don't forget we were also reminded every time his name was mentioned that he was a Vietnam Vet. ;) :thumbsup:

Kerry is a traitor and should be hanged! He would merge the U.S. with Canada and have us living in igloos to protect us from his global warming fallicy. This cannot happen! We need good, honest men like George W. Bush to protect us from politcal terrorism!

[BuffyMars]

"Instead all I heard was, "We're running record deficits...private savings accounts don't work...and the war in Iraq is a failure; we must take a new course of action." Out of those 4 statements...there were no plans for change!!! "

I know....I love those golden promises for a better future!!! Ahhh...please oh please be my new president!

"We must take a new course of action!"

:hand:

"You will see when I get in office......":devil: :devil: :devil:

[Blastoderm55]

This man can save our nation! Give your vote to
General Zod! (http://www.zod2008.com/)

http://www.zod2008.com/zodportrait.jpg

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
This man can save our nation! Give your vote to
General Zod! (http://www.zod2008.com/)

http://www.zod2008.com/zodportrait.jpg


nah he is to much of a softie for me..plus he has been in jail

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
This man can save our nation! Give your vote to
General Zod! (http://www.zod2008.com/)

http://www.zod2008.com/zodportrait.jpg

http://www.walken2008.com/index.html

:mad::mad::mad:

[Blastoderm55]

True, plus he comes off a bit as a Commie, and his attire suggests that he is a homosexual. Things we cannot tolerate!

How about this guy? (http://www.walken2008.com/)

http://www.walken2008.com/images/home_photo.jpg

[BuffyMars]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
This man can save our nation! Give your vote to
General Zod! (http://www.zod2008.com/)

http://www.zod2008.com/zodportrait.jpg

ROFL!!!

:clap: :clap:

Also known as....

http://www.stephanelliot.netfirms.com/MGMA4874-still_hires.jpg

[BuffyMars]

Danggit, no pics are working for me! :( All I get are little red x's.

[Blastoderm55]

Some sort of Communist copy-protection on those sites. Damn the Commies!

[big daddy russ]

Have ya'll seen the McGyver 2008 campaign? I'll have to look for the homepage, but it's classic.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
I again refer back to my comment at the top. Dems love to hate on the current situation...and they are great at identifying the problems...but they don't put forth solutions. I wasn't a big fan of re-electing Bush in 2004...and I waited the entire race for Kerry to put forth a concrete plan for our economy, for social security, for health care, and for the war in Iraq. Instead all I heard was, "We're running record deficits...private savings accounts don't work...and the war in Iraq is a failure; we must take a new course of action." Out of those 4 statements...there were no plans for change!!! :(

Yes, and many people realized the same thing, and voted for him again so he could continue on his course of action. :doh:

[big daddy russ]

MacGyver for President (http://www.specialfarm.net/macgyver2008.html)


War on Terror? Macgyver will take care of this in under twenty four hours once elected, no blood shed, just common sense. His solution for Iraq? a roll of toilet paper, a piece of coal and a bit of string.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

All I have to say is Vote Randall 2036. ;)

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
All I have to say is Vote Randall 2036. ;)
Green Party or Constitutionalist?

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Green Party or Constitutionalist?

Non-affiliated with a balanced perspective and desire for protection of civil rights, raising the power of the state and local governments, and the maintaining of social programs to help Americans in need.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Yes, and many people realized the same thing, and voted for him again so he could continue on his course of action. :doh:

yet many people DIDN'T realize it...and voted for that donk named Kerry! ;)

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
yet many people DIDN'T realize it...and voted for that donk named Kerry! ;)

Hahaha, this one made me laugh. Touche'

[shankbear]

Whoever gets in will eventually screw up. Nobody is any better than anybody else. Dems=Repubs. Screwed either way.

[BuffyMars]

Originally posted by shankbear
Whoever gets in will eventually screw up. Nobody is any better than anybody else. Dems=Repubs. Screwed either way.

AMEN! Thank you Jesus!

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by BuffyMars
AMEN! Thank you Jesus!
...eight pound, six ounce baby Jesus.

[RMAC]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Non-affiliated with a balanced perspective and desire for protection of civil rights, raising the power of the state and local governments, and the maintaining of social programs to help Americans in need.

All that without raising taxes, Gary?:D

[BuffyMars]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
...eight pound, six ounce baby Jesus.

Yes...crap! I mean, forgive me 6lb 8 oz baby Jesus!

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by RMAC
All that without raising taxes, Gary?:D

No, I will raise taxes on the higher income percentages, just to make things fair for everyone. No child or family should go hungry while some are driving around in Ferrari's. Call me communist or socialist, but I prefer a man who has a conscience. I see it like this, if a family's income is $20,000 a year and getting taxed at 10%, that is $2,000, which is a lot to that family. Looking at it for a family whose income is $1,000,000 and getting taxed 15% is $150,000. Now, who is hurting more when it comes to putting food on the table, Family A, which has $18,000 left or Family B, who has $850,000 left?

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
No, I will raise taxes on the higher income percentages, just to make things fair for everyone. No child or family should go hungry while some are driving around in Ferrari's. Call me communist or socialist, but I prefer a man who has a conscience. I see it like this, if a family's income is $20,000 a year and getting taxed at 10%, that is $2,000, which is a lot to that family. Looking at it for a family whose income is $1,000,000 and getting taxed 15% is $150,000. Now, who is hurting more when it comes to putting food on the table, Family A, which has $18,000 left or Family B, who has $850,000 left?

So in your world your going to hurt the ones who work their butt off and make something of themselves?

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
So in your world your going to hurt the ones who work their butt off and make something of themselves?

And the people making minimum wage aren't working their butts off either? I guess it's wrong to tax the low end of Americans 5% less than they currently are and the high end 5% more. Forgive me for wanting to let families put clothes on the backs of their children or food in their mouths, wait, don't, because I was raised to know that is the right thing to do. I guess we're just different though.

[KTJ]

I'd still vote for him...

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by KTJ
I'd still vote for him...

Who, Bush or Kerry?

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
No, I will raise taxes on the higher income percentages, just to make things fair for everyone. No child or family should go hungry while some are driving around in Ferrari's. Call me communist or socialist, but I prefer a man who has a conscience. I see it like this, if a family's income is $20,000 a year and getting taxed at 10%, that is $2,000, which is a lot to that family. Looking at it for a family whose income is $1,000,000 and getting taxed 15% is $150,000. Now, who is hurting more when it comes to putting food on the table, Family A, which has $18,000 left or Family B, who has $850,000 left?

At the current IRS rates a family making $30,000 pays no income tax. A family making $20,000 gets a couple of thousand back in income tax credits, actually making money. The top 2% income earners pay 30% of the entire federal tax revenue. The top 10% earners pay 50% of the taxes. Your family making $1,000,000 pays the IRS 33% in federal taxes. Isn't that progressive enough BBDE?

BTW look up the Alternate Minimum Tax to see what happens to folks who are "rich". It kicks in at around $90,000 and takes away your deductions. Youe senario is a fiction.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
No, I will raise taxes on the higher income percentages, just to make things fair for everyone. No child or family should go hungry while some are driving around in Ferrari's. Call me communist or socialist, but I prefer a man who has a conscience. I see it like this, if a family's income is $20,000 a year and getting taxed at 10%, that is $2,000, which is a lot to that family. Looking at it for a family whose income is $1,000,000 and getting taxed 15% is $150,000. Now, who is hurting more when it comes to putting food on the table, Family A, which has $18,000 left or Family B, who has $850,000 left?

Do you have any idea what the actual tax brackets look like??? It's A LOT higher than 15% if you're making $1 million...try again though! ;)

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
And the people making minimum wage aren't working their butts off either? I guess it's wrong to tax the low end of Americans 5% less than they currently are and the high end 5% more. Forgive me for wanting to let families put clothes on the backs of their children or food in their mouths, wait, don't, because I was raised to know that is the right thing to do. I guess we're just different though.

You do know that the top 50% income earners pay 96% of the income taxes right?

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
No, I will raise taxes on the higher income percentages, just to make things fair for everyone.
Guess what...life's not fair. Deal with it and move on! ;)

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Sorry guys, but I have a life aside from going and looking at numbers. Besides, those numbers were just to be taken for example, not as fact or a demostration of what they actually were. I guess I should have clarified, my bad.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Sorry guys, but I have a life aside from going and looking at numbers.

Don't play the game if you don't have the proper equipment! ;)

[Blastoderm55]

My money is mine to keep! I'll be damned if I pay more than anyone else! I don't care if you're poor! Go to school and become a doctor! But don't try and get government help for financial aid because that's socialism! :mad:

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Don't play the game if you don't have the proper equipment! ;)

This goes for you too.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
This goes for you too.

never had that problem...

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
And the people making minimum wage aren't working their butts off either? I guess it's wrong to tax the low end of Americans 5% less than they currently are and the high end 5% more. Forgive me for wanting to let families put clothes on the backs of their children or food in their mouths, wait, don't, because I was raised to know that is the right thing to do. I guess we're just different though.

BBDE, I just don't think you can paint everyone in America who wants to make money as uncharitable. The bulk of charitable donations in this country are overwhelmingly made by corporations, entrepreneurs and successful persons. Many, many more persons would be going without if it were not for the charity of these companies and successful individuals. I do not advocate that any person in America should be without food, shelter, or basic medical care, but it is not solely up to the more successful parts of our economy to provide all of it. Robin Hood has not worked that well as a means to finance education, so I don't see that it a similar plan would serve to end the needs of needy persons.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
never had that problem...

You obviously are up to date on everything political, so how would you solve our inflation rates, feed our starving families, uphold national security, deal with the illegal immigration issue, restore the balance of state and national government, and cure cancer?

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
BBDE, I just don't think you can paint everyone in America who wants to make money as uncharitable. The bulk of charitable donations in this country are overwhelmingly made by corporations, entrepreneurs and successful persons. Many, many more persons would be going without if it were not for the charity of these companies and successful individuals. I do not advocate that any person in America should be without food, shelter, or basic medical care, but it is not solely up to the more successful parts of our economy to provide all of it. Robin Hood has not worked that well as a means to finance education, so I don't see that it a similar plan would serve to end the needs of needy persons.

I'm not saying that they're uncharitable. I too want to make money and reap the benefits of my hard work, as I think that every American should do. I just can't justify kids starving while people drive around in Porshes. You're right though, my plan isn't foilproof, but it's not actually something that is going to be implemented, either. I for one don't believe in supply-side economics, I would just like to make that clear now, so yes, I do support taxing the wealthy, and if I'm part of that class one day, then I would have no problem paying for what I believe in now.

[pirate4state]

http://www.buzzlife.com/forums/images/smilies/zzz.gif http://www.buzzlife.com/forums/images/smilies/zzz.gifhttp://www.buzzlife.com/forums/images/smilies/zzz.gif

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by pirate4state
http://www.buzzlife.com/forums/images/smilies/zzz.gif http://www.buzzlife.com/forums/images/smilies/zzz.gifhttp://www.buzzlife.com/forums/images/smilies/zzz.gif

If you don't have anything nice to say........:D

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
If you don't have anything nice to say........:D exactly

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
You obviously are up to date on everything political, so how would you solve our inflation rates, feed our starving families, uphold national security, deal with the illegal immigration issue, restore the balance of state and national government, and cure cancer?
You miss the point. I know when and where to join the discussion...you'll just join every one of them! ;)

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
I'm not saying that they're uncharitable. I too want to make money and reap the benefits of my hard work, as I think that every American should do. I just can't justify kids starving while people drive around in Porshes. You're right though, my plan isn't foilproof, but it's not actually something that is going to be implemented, either. I for one don't believe in supply-side economics, I would just like to make that clear now, so yes, I do support taxing the wealthy, and if I'm part of that class one day, then I would have no problem paying for what I believe in now.

But your missing the point..the wealthy ARE TAXED more..as I said 50% of the top money makers in America pay 96% of the taxes..Poor people DONT PAY taxes after it is said and done..they get what they paid back and usually MORE.

[BuffyMars]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
But your missing the point..the wealthy ARE TAXED more..as I said 50% of the top money makers in America pay 96% of the taxes..Poor people DONT PAY taxes after it is said and done..they get what they paid back and usually MORE.

I thought everybody knew this....:thinking:

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
You miss the point. I know when and where to join the discussion...you'll just join every one of them! ;)


No, you missed the point. If you're going to play the game, then you too must have the proper equipment, and according to you, you do. That's why I want you to answer me how we can solve all of those problems and move on. Since you know everything and are properly equipped, you should know, except for the whole cancer one, but the rest you should know.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
But your missing the point..the wealthy ARE TAXED more..as I said 50% of the top money makers in America pay 96% of the taxes..Poor people DONT PAY taxes after it is said and done..they get what they paid back and usually MORE.

Supply-side economics. Look it up, look at what we're running as a nation, and then get back to me.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
No, you missed the point. If you're going to play the game, then you too must have the proper equipment, and according to you, you do. That's why I want you to answer me how we can solve all of those problems and move on. Since you know everything and are properly equipped, you should know, except for the whole cancer one, but the rest you should know.

I've never claimed to have answers or solutions. As an individual with no political aspirations...I have no great desire to have those answers. I would hope that our elected officials (who indicate a desire to answer such questions) would have those answers and would communicate them to us.

[BuffyMars]

I should have just skipped government and economics in HS and college altogether.

What with all the definitions being thrown around...

Anyone want to quiz me? :hand:

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Supply-side economics. Look it up, look at what we're running as a nation, and then get back to me.

Thanks, but I dont need to look it up, see other people have went to college, your not the only one. I have my degree.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Supply-side economics. Look it up, look at what we're running as a nation, and then get back to me.

Say's Law has nothing to do with who pays what in taxes. You're trying to mix apples and oranges here buddy. Macroeconomic theory is FAR different from tax rates.

[BuffyMars]

I want a penguin too!

Sorry, off topic...please don't let me interrupt this thread.

But your penguins are CUTE! :inlove:

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Thanks, but I dont need to look it up, see other people have went to college, your not the only one. I have my degree.

Then you understand the whole principles of the concept, tax cuts for the wealthy. I don't see the argument there? Apples and apples Adidas. By the way, I'm still waiting on that reply. ;)

[Adidas410s]

also...if you're trying to infer that Say's Law (the basis around which supply side economic theorists derive their material) as being the current economic policy of the US goverment...then you are sadly mistaken.

You might want to do a bit of reading on a man named Gregory Mankiw. Not only are his textbooks the current "bibles" of introductory micro and macro theory...he also chairs Bush's Board of Economic Advisors. Do a bit more reading on him and you will find that he is a staunch believer in Keynesian theory. John Maynard Keynes theories are the basis of demand-side economics. It has since been tweaked by Mankiw and he is referred to as a New Keynesian economist.

So again...if you think the gov't is taking a supply side approach (which still doesn't have a direct link to tax policy)...then you are sadly mistaken.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
Then you understand the whole principles of the concept, tax cuts for the wealthy. I don't see the argument there? Apples and apples Adidas. By the way, I'm still waiting on that reply. ;)

Here's your reply...so you don't have to scroll up a few posts:


Originally posted by Adidas410s
I've never claimed to have answers or solutions. As an individual with no political aspirations...I have no great desire to have those answers. I would hope that our elected officials (who indicate a desire to answer such questions) would have those answers and would communicate them to us.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by BuffyMars
I want a penguin too!

Sorry, off topic...please don't let me interrupt this thread.

But your penguins are CUTE! :inlove:

I got the girl a 2 ft penguin for Valentine's that she could her to take back to her house while she's at law school....major points on that one!!! :D:D:D

[mistanice]

I thought:

There is no law which requires you to file an income tax return for working in America.

There is no law which requires you to pay income tax for working in America.

You volunteer when you sign a income tax return.

You volunteer when you pay income tax.

You sign away your 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination when you sign a tax return.

The money which you pay as your " income tax " goes to a private banking cartel known as the Federal Reserve System. This organization, also known as the " FED," is NOT a government agency.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by mistanice
I thought:

There is no law which requires you to file an income tax return for working in America.

There is no law which requires you to pay income tax for working in America.

You volunteer when you sign a income tax return.

You volunteer when you pay income tax.

You sign away your 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination when you sign a tax return.

The money which you pay as your " income tax " goes to a private banking cartel known as the Federal Reserve System. This organization, also known as the " FED," is NOT a government agency.

:smoker::smoker::smoker:

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END
You obviously are up to date on everything political, so how would you solve our inflation rates, feed our starving families, uphold national security, deal with the illegal immigration issue, restore the balance of state and national government, and cure cancer?
Lower the minimum wage; sign mass government contracts with Nissin Foods; bring back this guy:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/92/Henry_Clay.JPG/200px-Henry_Clay.JPG
...as our Secretary of Defense; start building Taco Bells and Wal-Marts on the other side of the border, inducing a mass exodus to Mexico; nuke the pentagon; and destroy the rainforest in search of the answer.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Here's your reply...so you don't have to scroll up a few posts:

But I thought you were equipped?

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Lower the minimum wage; sign mass government contracts with Nissin Foods; bring back this guy:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/92/Henry_Clay.JPG/200px-Henry_Clay.JPG
...as our Secretary of Defense; start building Taco Bells and Wal-Marts on the other side of the border, inducing a mass exodus to Mexico; nuke the pentagon; and destroy the rainforest in search of the answer.

:clap:

[mistanice]

Originally posted by mistanice
I thought:

There is no law which requires you to file an income tax return for working in America.

There is no law which requires you to pay income tax for working in America.

You volunteer when you sign a income tax return.

You volunteer when you pay income tax.

You sign away your 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination when you sign a tax return.

The money which you pay as your " income tax " goes to a private banking cartel known as the Federal Reserve System. This organization, also known as the " FED," is NOT a government agency.

Is this true, i'll give someone a $1 if they can find me an answer.

[DU_stud04]

http://homepage.mac.com/april_heath/Sites/iSale/Pictures/1154911459_0.jpg

[LH Panther Mom]

"It is not that people don't want automobiles. Toyota is selling plenty of cars made in its American factories with non-union labor.


Some claim that it is automation, rather than union wages and benefits, that is responsible for declining employment among the Detroit auto workers.


But why are automobile companies buying expensive automated machinery, except that labor has been made expensive enough to make that their next best option?"


A couple of years ago, I heard an interesting program regarding laid off UAW employees. Maybe if more people were aware of what actually goes on, there might be a better understanding of why there is a decline in America in auto workers. The union workers that are laid off are many times offered FULL PAY AND BENEFITS IF THERE IS NO WORK AVAILABLE. Yes, they can sit on their butts, watch tv all day and be paid just as if they were at work each day.

From the Post-Gazette article:

"The JOBS Bank has long been a sore spot among Detroit auto executives. But the costs of the program, begun in the early 1980s, have escalated sharply in the last two years as increasing numbers of traditional Detroit Big Three plants have shut down.

Analysts estimate that the JOBS Bank is costing Detroit's auto makers and Delphi Corp., the big former GM unit, more than $1 billion annually -- at $130,000 in wages and benefits per worker per year.

GM has 5,000 to 6,000 workers in its JOBS Bank, analysts estimate. The company hasn't disclosed a figure. Chrysler has about 2,500 union workers in the program, and Ford says it has about 1,100."



http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MellodyHobson/story?id=1534938

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06018/640101.stm

Heck....who doesn't want that type of "job"? :thinking:

[JHS_c/o_06']

i know you are going to think i'm joking.....or i'm just trying to stir up stuff or be funny or whatever.....but i honestly think that Barack Obama is the Antichrist. I know we aren't suppose to get into religion on here.....but yeah.....i am a firm believer in that. Call me crazy if you want.

[BIG BLUE DEFENSIVE END]

Originally posted by JHS_c/o_06'
i know you are going to think i'm joking.....or i'm just trying to stir up stuff or be funny or whatever.....but i honestly think that Barack Obama is the Antichrist. I know we aren't suppose to get into religion on here.....but yeah.....i am a firm believer in that. Call me crazy if you want.


Well, I'm going to say yeah, you're crazy.

[RMAC]

Originally posted by JHS_c/o_06'
i know you are going to think i'm joking.....or i'm just trying to stir up stuff or be funny or whatever.....but i honestly think that Barack Obama is the Antichrist. I know we aren't suppose to get into religion on here.....but yeah.....i am a firm believer in that. Call me crazy if you want.

I think scripture says the Antichrist will come from eastern Europe, of the old Soviet Union.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by JHS_c/o_06'
i know you are going to think i'm joking.....or i'm just trying to stir up stuff or be funny or whatever.....but i honestly think that Barack Obama is the Antichrist. I know we aren't suppose to get into religion on here.....but yeah.....i am a firm believer in that. Call me crazy if you want.
Maybe, maybe not, but I'm sure as hell not going to call you crazy on that one. The only thing I know is that I've never disliked any American political figure EVER more than Obama. Not Aaron Burr, not Lincoln Chafee, not Huey Long, hell, not even Benedict Arnold. And it's not even close.

I won't go into all the details, but if you actually follow his career and the bills he's sponsored, you'd be right there with me. Republican, Democrat, Green, Libertarian, Constitutionalist, Reform Party, whatever you are, as long as you're an American with an ounce of common sense you would not like this guy. I have no idea how he got reelected, but I've whittled the choices down to either:
a.) he really is the Antichrist and possessed voters as they went to the voting machines,
-or-
b.) the Illinois public education system spits out more ignorant people than the state of Arkansas.

There's not a single person in politics today that creates a more heated, passionate debate than Obama. Even President Bush is starting to take a backseat to this guy. I guess you can buy a seat in the Illinois legislature with a degree from Harvard Law.

I pray to God that Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean, John Kerry, anyone else gets the Democratic nomination. If you keep up with politics, you already know the rift that's been caused because of how strongly Hilary disagrees with everything he says. You think partisanship was bad when the GOP had complete control? Just wait 'til Obama makes it to the White House.



PS: I'm sorry if this was too political, mods. You're welcome to delete it. This is the one guy in politics who really gets me fired up.

[mistanice]

nm

[mistanice]

Originally posted by mistanice
Seriously, the only reason this man has any kind of chance is due to Oprah hyping him up. This woman alone caused a rutkus in the beef industry when she made a serious claim against them, one powerful woman. p.s. not being serious.

[kaorder1999]

seriously....is that really his middle name?

[Pudlugger]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
seriously....is that really his middle name?

Yes, but don't expect the media to print it.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
seriously....is that really his middle name?

yep...his father was Barack Hussein Obama Sr.

[kaorder1999]

unbelieveable! You would think that he would have had his name legally changes before running for president!

[Blastoderm55]

Obama as the Anti-Christ, eh? Makes sense. Jesus was Black, afterall.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Obama as the Anti-Christ, eh? Makes sense. Jesus was Black, afterall.

Aw heck, Blast---Don't you have anything controversial to add? :D

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Aw heck, Blast---Don't you have anything controversial to add? :D

NOT RIGHT NOW! ALREADY FOUGHT OFF ANGRY COMMIES FROM THE U.N. AND PETA! :mad:

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Blastoderm55
Obama as the Anti-Christ, eh? Makes sense. Jesus was Black, afterall.

Jesus Shuttlesworth was black! ;)

[Blastoderm55]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Jesus Shuttlesworth was black! ;)

Along with Mrs. Butterworth! :thumbsup:

[Black_Magic]

Its funny really. Southern Rednecks have been brainwashed into doing what the Republican party want by making sure Southern whites who are middle class are worried about someone getting one cent that does not diserve it ( well fare ) they have Rednecks convinced People using well fare All are lazy and taking advantage of the system so it should be done away with. Convinced them Democrats want to take away ALL the guns ( when 90% of them want assault weapons banned and reasonable gun control laws). Convinced the Redneck that Democrats want to raise ALL taxes ( in reality Dems want to Raise Taxes on the richest 5% of people who by the way have had a bonanza under Bush). They have them so brain washed that they are worried about those issues then at the same time getting rich by getting taxes lowered on them selves and spending out the wazooo at the expense of our childrens future because they are the ones who will have to pay for all this .. I dont make enough money to be a republican. I wish i did.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Its funny really. Southern Rednecks have been brainwashed into doing what the Republican party want by making sure Southern whites who are middle class are worried about someone getting one cent that does not diserve it ( well fare ) they have Rednecks convinced People using well fare All are lazy and taking advantage of the system so it should be done away with. Convinced them Democrats want to take away ALL the guns ( when 90% of them want assault weapons banned and reasonable gun control laws). Convinced the Redneck that Democrats want to raise ALL taxes ( in reality Dems want to Raise Taxes on the richest 5% of people who by the way have had a bonanza under Bush). They have them so brain washed that they are worried about those issues then at the same time getting rich by getting taxes lowered on them selves and spending out the wazooo at the expense of our childrens future because they are the ones who will have to pay for all this .. I dont make enough money to be a republican. I wish i did.

Nice spin...

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Its funny really. Southern Rednecks have been brainwashed into doing what the Republican party want by making sure Southern whites who are middle class are worried about someone getting one cent that does not diserve it ( well fare ) they have Rednecks convinced People using well fare All are lazy and taking advantage of the system so it should be done away with. Convinced them Democrats want to take away ALL the guns ( when 90% of them want assault weapons banned and reasonable gun control laws). Convinced the Redneck that Democrats want to raise ALL taxes ( in reality Dems want to Raise Taxes on the richest 5% of people who by the way have had a bonanza under Bush). They have them so brain washed that they are worried about those issues then at the same time getting rich by getting taxes lowered on them selves and spending out the wazooo at the expense of our childrens future because they are the ones who will have to pay for all this .. I dont make enough money to be a republican. I wish i did.

i now have tired head from reading that....

[Black_Magic]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Nice spin... Thanks:clap: ;) I tried to be brief but it is a good overview.:D