Hoge criticizes Young for not passing in OT

[Old Tiger]

Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4404039.html)



The first thing we should establish this morning is that, contrary to public belief, ESPN analyst Merril Hoge doesn't hate Vince Young.

"He's an impressive kid," Hoge said. "I think he's a good kid. ... I don't hate Vince Young. I've never said that I hate Vince Young."

The second thing we should establish is that Hoge thinks Young arguably made the wrong decision when he ran for the touchdown that beat the Texans in overtime last Sunday.

We'll pause for a moment for you to laugh, scream, throw items about the room or shake your head at what you might justifiably consider the absurdity of it all.

If you need more time, go to youtube.com and check out the video titled Vince vs. Hoge, a collection of Hoge's recent comments about the Titans quarterback coupled with game footage. It's almost four minutes long. Take your time.

Welcome back. When he checked in Tuesday, Hoge was looking at end zone coaching tape from the Texans-Titans game in preparation for ESPN's NFL Matchup show at 7:30 p.m. Sunday. He was watching with a critical eye, which is his job.

What he saw convinces him that Young could have won the game Sunday with his arm, not his legs. It also reinforces his belief that Young has miles to go before becoming a polished quarterback who can take the Titans to a Super Bowl.

On the overtime play in question, "The guy I'm looking at is the slot receiver, No. 19 (Bobby Wade)," Hoge said. "He runs a great route. If that ball comes out, (Wade) probably scores.

"This says a lot about where (Young) is as a quarterback. He is not sure of coverages and where to throw the football. ... The thing I have said from the start is that he faces a monumental learning curve, and that has not changed."

Young got a boost Sunday, Hoge said, from the Texans' defensive breakdowns. Houston rushed seven players, leaving one-on-one coverage for each of Tennessee's four receivers — a situation called "zero coverage."

When the Titans picked up the blitz, the defense had no deep help.

Hoge isn't demeaning the value of Young's physical skills that contributed to the winning TD. His point is that for Young to be a championship quarterback, he will have to do so as a pocket passer and that his understanding of the game, at this point, is insufficient for him to attain that goal.

"The question is can you win a championship, not can you go 6-7 (the Titans' record)," he said. "I don't think the Titans drafted him to go 8-8. They drafted him to win a championship.

"But for that to happen, it's going to take a significant time. Right now, they're not asking him to win games. They're doing a good job building him mentally and not putting him in bad situations."

Hoge also believes good defenses, such as the Jacksonville Jaguars defense that Young faces Sunday, will not make the same mistakes the Texans, Colts, Giants and Eagles made during the Titans' four-game win streak.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by Tiger WR
Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4404039.html)



The first thing we should establish this morning is that, contrary to public belief, ESPN analyst Merril Hoge doesn't hate Vince Young.

"He's an impressive kid," Hoge said. "I think he's a good kid. ... I don't hate Vince Young. I've never said that I hate Vince Young."

The second thing we should establish is that Hoge thinks Young arguably made the wrong decision when he ran for the touchdown that beat the Texans in overtime last Sunday.

We'll pause for a moment for you to laugh, scream, throw items about the room or shake your head at what you might justifiably consider the absurdity of it all.

If you need more time, go to youtube.com and check out the video titled Vince vs. Hoge, a collection of Hoge's recent comments about the Titans quarterback coupled with game footage. It's almost four minutes long. Take your time.

Welcome back. When he checked in Tuesday, Hoge was looking at end zone coaching tape from the Texans-Titans game in preparation for ESPN's NFL Matchup show at 7:30 p.m. Sunday. He was watching with a critical eye, which is his job.

What he saw convinces him that Young could have won the game Sunday with his arm, not his legs. It also reinforces his belief that Young has miles to go before becoming a polished quarterback who can take the Titans to a Super Bowl.

On the overtime play in question, "The guy I'm looking at is the slot receiver, No. 19 (Bobby Wade)," Hoge said. "He runs a great route. If that ball comes out, (Wade) probably scores.

"This says a lot about where (Young) is as a quarterback. He is not sure of coverages and where to throw the football. ... The thing I have said from the start is that he faces a monumental learning curve, and that has not changed."

Young got a boost Sunday, Hoge said, from the Texans' defensive breakdowns. Houston rushed seven players, leaving one-on-one coverage for each of Tennessee's four receivers — a situation called "zero coverage."

When the Titans picked up the blitz, the defense had no deep help.

Hoge isn't demeaning the value of Young's physical skills that contributed to the winning TD. His point is that for Young to be a championship quarterback, he will have to do so as a pocket passer and that his understanding of the game, at this point, is insufficient for him to attain that goal.

"The question is can you win a championship, not can you go 6-7 (the Titans' record)," he said. "I don't think the Titans drafted him to go 8-8. They drafted him to win a championship.

"But for that to happen, it's going to take a significant time. Right now, they're not asking him to win games. They're doing a good job building him mentally and not putting him in bad situations."

Hoge also believes good defenses, such as the Jacksonville Jaguars defense that Young faces Sunday, will not make the same mistakes the Texans, Colts, Giants and Eagles made during the Titans' four-game win streak.
Hoge is an idiot the guys a rookie and winning games and playing great

[Bulldog_12]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Hoge is an idiot the guys a rookie and winning games and playing great

I dont think he said anything too far off base. The texans are awful on defense. He is not going to be able to just run to victory all the time. Since his first start on Oct 1, He has lost to Dallas, Indy, Jacksonville, and Baltimore. He has beaten Washington, Houston (2), Philly, Indy, and NY Giants. There seems to be a trend here. If the opponents have good defenses, the Titans dont win. They are averaging around 60 yds rushing per loss. Which finally leads me to my agreement with Hoge. If defenses keep his feet, and the rushing attack, in check and make him pass, they can win. He is not the caliber type player, RIGHT NOW, to win a championship. Once he learns to read coverages better and have more confidence, watch out. He could be special.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
Hoge is an idiot the guys a rookie and winning games and playing great
Man, what the hell is up with all the Hoge hate lately? Just because he doesn't ride Vince Young's jock every chance he gets?

I've got news for all the Vince clones out there... he's not the only one.

Unfortunately, everyone nowadays sees the flash and thinks that's what a QB should be. It started with Randall Cunningham. Later, Kordell Stewart was the guy. Then it was Mike Vick. Now it's Vince Young.

Granted, I'm on the Young bandwagon, but he's no Elway or Steve Young yet.

I've always loved Hoge's opinion. He gives a completely different perspective to all this, and maybe all the kids out there who are part of the ESPN generation could learn a thing or two from him. He doesn't always agree with the rest of the panel, and that's a good thing.

[ASUFrisbeeStud]

Hoge is right, if VY wants to be a quarterback that stays around for 15 years than he will need to lean to read coverage, that running he does will only last him so long. I'm drunk though so I could be completely wrong. I just saw Jason Boland in concert though.

[LitanyofFury]

Nevermind that two of Vince's losses to those "good defenses" were by 1-point (Ravens, Colts).

Also, to me. . .it seems like common sense that when the defense blitzes everyone and leaves man-coverage you look for your open receivers and then take-off if they aren't immediately open so you don't get sacked. Vince didn't really have all day in the pocket to throw on that play now did he?

Finally, I don't think anyone. . .including the Vince clones said that VY was Montana, Elway, or any of those other guys in only his 10th game in the NFL. They rightly said that he showed flashes of brilliance like those football greats and that he has the coolness and poise during crunch time that those great QBs did. Everyone I've ever talked to on Orangebloods and even the staunchest VY supporters wanted him to sit this entire season. We knew he'd have to learn a bit. However, the Titans tossed him into the mix and he's come away with 6 wins (and very nearly 8) with a team that was predicted to finish dead last in the NFL. I think Hoge should take a step back, put down his Haterade, and ask himself if Jay Cutler, Matt Leinart, or almost any other QB in the league would have been able to get a 40 yard touchdown in that situation running OR throwing the ball. That list isn't going to be very long yet a rookie QB is already on it....

EDIT: Here's VY's passing and rushing during this 4-game win streak.

11 @PHI W 31-13 8 22 101 36.4 28 1 0 66.7 6 49 8.2 0
12 NYG W 24-21 24 35 249 68.6 25 2 0 107.9 10 69 6.9 1
13 IND W 20-17 15 25 163 60.0 21 2 2 72.6 9 78 8.7 0
14 @HOU W 26-20 (OT) 19 29 218 65.5 39 0 1 73.6 7 86 12.3 1

He's been completing over 60% of his passes and hasn't had below a 65 QB rating. He's also torn it up running the ball (yes, he has more rushing yards and a better average than Reggie Bush). He's a rookie who was supposed to take YEARS to develop. He's already learning and getting better and beating teams and he's in week 10. . .

[Old Tiger]

Chow puts Young's progress on fast track
12/13/2006, 8:01 p.m. ET
By TERESA M. WALKER
The Associated Press

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Norm Chow knows a thing or two about quarterbacks. Vince Young is showing him something he's never seen before.

"I think he can almost, corny as it sounds, he can redefine what the quarterback position should be like because he's so big and he throws the ball well and he can run," Chow said Wednesday of the Tennessee Titans' rookie quarterback.

Want to accelerate the development of a quarterback in the NFL?

The Titans have done just that by pairing an offensive coordinator with a history of churning out Heisman Trophy winners with a physically gifted rookie. But Young has surprised even the Titans with how quickly he has learned, and he's very self-motivated.

"Basically, it's a work in progress for me. I'm not finished yet," Young said.

"I'm not satisfied."

The only question now seems to be how good will Young be eventually? For his part, Chow has been talking to Titans coach Jeff Fisher about how to help Young continue improving, and he sees seemingly unlimited potential.

"He's making such big plays. Maybe the plays come more in the frame of what happens, so these spectacular plays become less and less, and the ordinary, consistent type plays will get more consistent, get more plentiful," Chow said.

Young has provided plenty jaw-dropping plays leading three straight comeback victories.

He became the first rookie quarterback to lead his team to consecutive wins from 14 points down, including a 21-0 deficit to the New York Giants. He has the NFL record for yards rushing by a rookie quarterback with 458, topping the 408-yard mark set by Chicago's Bobby Douglass in 1969.

Young can't catch Ben Roethlisberger's league record of 13 wins as a rookie quarterback. But he can tie Hall of Famer Dan Marino and teammate Kerry Collins for fifth for most wins by a rookie starting quarterback since 1970 if the Titans (6-7) beat Jacksonville (8-5) on Sunday.

His most amazing play yet was his 39-yard touchdown run in overtime at Houston last week. It was the second longest TD in overtime by a quarterback, behind Michael Vick's 46-yard sprint on Dec. 1, 2002 at Minnesota, and sixth longest overall.

Veteran center Kevin Mawae said Young has what he calls a "WOW" factor.

"Hopefully, that's something he'll continue throughout his career, and it's just not Vince being new against everybody this year. He's definitely a special talent, and it's been a joy playing with him," Mawae said.

The key has been Young's ability to absorb the offense starting in training camp. The Titans prepared a package of plays just for Young. They didn't need them.

"He was right along with everybody else and did a nice job, along with everybody else," Chow said.

The 60-year-old Chow has tweaked the offense, using plays that use Young's arm and his legs or those the rookie has absorbed easily: more shotgun in the offense to give the rookie extra time to make decisions, or even some option runs like he used in college at Texas.

Young works with Chow and Johnson after practices each Thursday to improve his timing with receivers.

The Titans always planned to play Young, but by easing him in with a series here or there. They signed Collins to avoid having to start Young. But coach Jeff Fisher let Young play the fourth quarter of a 40-7 blowout loss at San Diego on Sept. 17, throwing plays at him that he hadn't practiced.

Young surprised Fisher with his progress, and the coach made him the starter on Oct. 1 against Dallas. Young has responded, taking a winless team to their best finish since 2003 and three straight comeback victories in stunning fashion.

"I don't think I've seen a young quarterback learn as fast as he did," Fisher said. "He's got the poise, composure and ability to stay calm in critical situations and make plays, and that's what he's done the last month."

Young went from completing an average of 45.7 percent of his passes the first seven starts to 65 percent the past three weeks. He's already pushed Dan Pastorini's name off most of the team's rookie passing records.

He also knows he can get better. He watches film and sees his mistakes. But the play Young made that impressed Chow last week wasn't the overtime TD. It was a checkdown pass for 8 yards to Travis Henry that kept a scoring drive alive.

"He has a good feel for getting the ball down the field," Chow said.

It's a relationship that works because both Chow and Young both know when to be competitive, when they can laugh and joke. Chow's contract is up after this season, and the Titans might want to extend it quickly to continue Young's development.

"We could have a long-term relationship if this thing goes like we planned," Young said recently.

[Bulldog_12]

Originally posted by LitanyofFury
Everyone I've ever talked to on Orangebloods

theres your problem. And basically you agreed with Hoge in saying that he is not a championship quarterback yet. thats pretty much what Hoge was implying. Not that Vince sucks, just saying that he is not where he needs to be yet, knowledge wise to be a championship QB. I love it when somebody actually says something against the mighty Vince Young.

One time, I heard this rumor that Vince Young flew into a burning building and saved five children. He is a GOD!

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Bulldog_12
theres your problem. And basically you agreed with Hoge in saying that he is not a championship quarterback yet. thats pretty much what Hoge was implying. Not that Vince sucks, just saying that he is not where he needs to be yet, knowledge wise to be a championship QB. I love it when somebody actually says something against the mighty Vince Young.

One time, I heard this rumor that Vince Young flew into a burning building and saved five children. He is a GOD!

All these guys are crazy. They are there to entertain and amuse us same as some of the posters on this board. :rolleyes: :devil: They say something one week & have to eat their words the next. I mean not last week everyone was on Dallas' jock strap. What happens? They lose to the Saints, in convinencing fashion and now there are problems in Big D. GMAB!! Crazy, but I love 'em all and love yelling at the tv. :crazy1: :D

[TheDOCTORdre]

I would like to state my dislike for Hoge has nothing to do with his critisism of VY as it is true, Young does need to learn to read coverages and is not a championship QB yet, but I have never really liked him he just rubs me the wrong way

[LitanyofFury]

Yeah, Vince sure does suck! (http://texas.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=500&tid=85434035&mid=85434035&sid=902&style=2)

[g$$]

Cut Merrill Hoge some slack. The guy did play the game & was a fine Pro Bowl FB (Steelers, etc.) who had to retire due to multiple concussions. All he said is VY has a ways to go, big deal. VY is a special athlete who will only get better. Let's don't put him in Canton, Ohio yet guys.

[JR2004]

I like to listen to Jaws and Hoge on NFL Matchup, but Hoge really has gone after Vince. His criticism seems to be personal with Vince and even Jaws has called him out for the personal nature of his comments. Vince has a lot to learn still, but he's doing pretty darn good thus far and his teammates believe in him. His head coach and offensive coordinator weren't sold on drafting him in April. I think right about now they're overjoyed to have him playing for Tennessee because without him they'd both probably have lost their job after the season.

[g$$]

Originally posted by JR2004
I like to listen to Jaws and Hoge on NFL Matchup, but Hoge really has gone after Vince. His criticism seems to be personal with Vince and even Jaws has called him out for the personal nature of his comments. Vince has a lot to learn still, but he's doing pretty darn good thus far and his teammates believe in him. His head coach and offensive coordinator weren't sold on drafting him in April. I think right about now they're overjoyed to have him playing for Tennessee because without him they'd both probably have lost their job after the season.

That's right, it is well-known that owner & still Houstonian Bud Adams made the pick of VY against the wishes of Chow & Fisher (they both wanted Leinart, Fisher played at USC too & Chow coached there of course). Bud made the pick to stick it to Houston & it sure worked.

[eagles_victory]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Man, what the hell is up with all the Hoge hate lately? Just because he doesn't ride Vince Young's jock every chance he gets?

I've got news for all the Vince clones out there... he's not the only one.

Unfortunately, everyone nowadays sees the flash and thinks that's what a QB should be. It started with Randall Cunningham. Later, Kordell Stewart was the guy. Then it was Mike Vick. Now it's Vince Young.

Granted, I'm on the Young bandwagon, but he's no Elway or Steve Young yet.

I've always loved Hoge's opinion. He gives a completely different perspective to all this, and maybe all the kids out there who are part of the ESPN generation could learn a thing or two from him. He doesn't always agree with the rest of the panel, and that's a good thing. hes winning games and he will improve as the time goes on... hes a winner and thats one of the most important aspects of being a qb... but vince is use to everyone knocking him im sure hes not worried about some waship like hoge

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by eagles_victory
hes winning games and he will improve as the time goes on... hes a winner and thats one of the most important aspects of being a qb... but vince is use to everyone knocking him im sure hes not worried about some waship like hoge
That's good to know, but do you remember how everyone was so enamored with Vick when he came into the league, and how he single-handedly beat Minnesota to pull a pathetic Falcons squad into the playoffs? Well, the Falcons haven't got much better since then, and you can trace that directly to Vick. I know it sounds crazy, but when these NFL defensive gurus find a way to corral these running QB's and force them to rely on their arms, the teams become stagnant.

It's the same thing that happened to Randall Cunningham in Philly, and I'm worried that Vince MAY be the next running QB to fall victim to that trap.

I'm on the Vince bandwagon as of this second, but I'm at the back of the wagon and could fall off very easily. Maybe Merril isn't all that big on Young, but he's been around the game a lot longer than any of us and always bases his thoughts on facts.

I didn't see the replay, but I have no doubt that it's true. Vince still has a ways to go as a QB.

[stxfootballfan]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
That's good to know, but do you remember how everyone was so enamored with Vick when he came into the league, and how he single-handedly beat Minnesota to pull a pathetic Falcons squad into the playoffs? Well, the Falcons haven't got much better since then, and you can trace that directly to Vick. I know it sounds crazy, but when these NFL defensive gurus find a way to corral these running QB's and force them to rely on their arms, the teams become stagnant.

It's the same thing that happened to Randall Cunningham in Philly, and I'm worried that Vince MAY be the next running QB to fall victim to that trap.

I'm on the Vince bandwagon as of this second, but I'm at the back of the wagon and could fall off very easily. Maybe Merril isn't all that big on Young, but he's been around the game a lot longer than any of us and always bases his thoughts on facts.

I didn't see the replay, but I have no doubt that it's true. Vince still has a ways to go as a QB.

Yeah well it doesnt help that Vick only has one guy who can catch the ball consistently.

[g$$]

Originally posted by stxfootballfan
Yeah well it doesnt help that Vick only has one guy who can catch the ball consistently.

What hurts Vick more is that he is a terribly inaccurate passer & great runner no doubt. He has a strong arm but is far from accurate. Hard to succeed in the NFL as a 1 trick pony.

[stxfootballfan]

Originally posted by g$$
What hurts Vick more is that he is a terribly inaccurate passer & great runner no doubt. He has a strong arm but is far from accurate. Hard to succeed in the NFL as a 1 trick pony.

Yeah your right look at these stats

Type Number Pct of Incomp Pct of Overall Attempts
Pass Dropped 21 13.2 6.4
Poor Throw 56 35.2 17.0

[LitanyofFury]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
That's good to know, but do you remember how everyone was so enamored with Vick when he came into the league, and how he single-handedly beat Minnesota to pull a pathetic Falcons squad into the playoffs? Well, the Falcons haven't got much better since then, and you can trace that directly to Vick. I know it sounds crazy, but when these NFL defensive gurus find a way to corral these running QB's and force them to rely on their arms, the teams become stagnant.

It's the same thing that happened to Randall Cunningham in Philly, and I'm worried that Vince MAY be the next running QB to fall victim to that trap.

I'm on the Vince bandwagon as of this second, but I'm at the back of the wagon and could fall off very easily. Maybe Merril isn't all that big on Young, but he's been around the game a lot longer than any of us and always bases his thoughts on facts.

I didn't see the replay, but I have no doubt that it's true. Vince still has a ways to go as a QB.

Yeah. . .see, you've fallen into the same trap that everyone else who's been doubting Vince has. You've been hit over the head so many times with the ESPSuck propaganda about how Vince can't throw and how his mechanics are shoddy that you've just decided to take it as a given instead of critically thinking about it.

In the link I posted it shows Vince's numbers compared to some of the great QBs to play the game and his numbers are better or comparable in every situation. Not to mention the running game Vince brings which beats almost everyone out except maybe McNair who had already had a few years to sit and learn and who had a full 16 games to rack up 600+ yrds and 8 TDs (Vince is close to 500 yrds and at 5-6 TDs through 10). Does this mean he's a LOCK to become the next football great and get the Hall of Fame? Heck no. However, it shows that Vince is farther along than any of these yahoos want to give him credit for.

I don't think many people would be complaining if they didn't see ESPSuck CONTINUALLY bash Vince over and over and over. I mean when he was playing college ball they trashed him. When he lost the Heisman to Reggie they trashed him. After he owned USC in the Rose Bowl they started trashing him so he wouldn't get drafted as high. Then after the Titans picked him #3 over Matty Whineart they trashed him AND the Titans. Then the attacks even got personal from Merril Hoge and ESPSuck did nothing to curb his nonsense. Also, the criticisms of VY are totally unwarranted. Everyone made fun of his Wonderlic score (including MANY on this site) and were just plain rude about him being this stupid guy and all. Yet somehow he's already figured out a pro-offensive playbook and has beaten 6 teams. They acted like Vince couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with his passes and that they'd ALL get knocked down because of his silly throwing motion. In the past 6 games he's been completing over 60% of his passes....

We don't have to crown the guy yet but sheesh, just get off his back, ya know?

EDIT: And YES. . .Vince DOES have a ways to go as a QB. And that should be the scariest thing for every NFL team out there. Look how good the guy is through 10 weeks and remember that he seems to grow exponentially every year in how well he understands/plays the game (see his improvement from sophomore to junior year). If he continues to get better. . .man. . .I need to start betting on the Titans and finding out where to get Super Bowl tickets for a couple of years down the road.

[gato 76]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
That's good to know, but do you remember how everyone was so enamored with Vick when he came into the league, and how he single-handedly beat Minnesota to pull a pathetic Falcons squad into the playoffs? Well, the Falcons haven't got much better since then, and you can trace that directly to Vick. I know it sounds crazy, but when these NFL defensive gurus find a way to corral these running QB's and force them to rely on their arms, the teams become stagnant.

It's the same thing that happened to Randall Cunningham in Philly, and I'm worried that Vince MAY be the next running QB to fall victim to that trap.

I'm on the Vince bandwagon as of this second, but I'm at the back of the wagon and could fall off very easily. Maybe Merril isn't all that big on Young, but he's been around the game a lot longer than any of us and always bases his thoughts on facts.

I didn't see the replay, but I have no doubt that it's true. Vince still has a ways to go as a QB.

I know what your saying,and it looks like he could fall into that same trap,but the guy is a winner,he will try to find ways to beat you and then he does it.I still would have took him in the draft,the Texans will never win after 5yrs and still building a team nope thats too long.I thought GK had more sense being a offense minded coach,then go after MARIO WHO.

[charlesrixey]

i'm fairly certain vince is 6-4 as the starter, after collins began the year 0-3.

He's won six of his last 8 as well, i believe

He may not yet be where he will but sounds pretty damn good for a rookie on a bad team

[VanKampen]

as funny as it sounds, the titans should be 10-3. kerry collins threw the game away against the jets in week 1. miami came back late in the game to steal a win away from the titans. the colts came back in the second half to scrape out a 1 point victory. baltimore was down 26-7 before they made a 4th quarter comeback to win the game. if vince young starts the whole season, the titans would at least be 8-5 right now.

[necks_c/09]

i dont see how u can criticize something someone did if they won the game.......thats like yelling at somebody 4 shooting a 3 in basketball after they made the shot.....!!!!

[piratebg]

Originally posted by necks_c/09
i dont see how u can criticize something someone did if they won the game.......thats like yelling at somebody 4 shooting a 3 in basketball after they made the shot.....!!!!


No kidding. This one still has me scratching my head. Kind of makes you wonder though. What would he have to say if, let's say, Young dropped back, threw the pass, and it was intercepted and returned for a TD. Would he have been like, "Why didn't he run with all of the open field ahead of him?"

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by necks_c/09
i dont see how u can criticize something someone did if they won the game.......thats like yelling at somebody 4 shooting a 3 in basketball after they made the shot.....!!!!
Because if he does the same thing again in a different game, it may turn out to be a three-yard loss. What would've happened if DeMeco Ryans had taken the right pursuit angle and gone the other way? The result might not have been the same.

I agree he's a winner and I'm on his bandwagon right now, but things could change a lot if he doesn't learn how to beat teams with his arm.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by LitanyofFury
Yeah. . .see, you've fallen into the same trap that everyone else who's been doubting Vince has. You've been hit over the head so many times with the ESPSuck propaganda about how Vince can't throw and how his mechanics are shoddy that you've just decided to take it as a given instead of critically thinking about it.

In the link I posted it shows Vince's numbers compared to some of the great QBs to play the game and his numbers are better or comparable in every situation. Not to mention the running game Vince brings which beats almost everyone out except maybe McNair who had already had a few years to sit and learn and who had a full 16 games to rack up 600+ yrds and 8 TDs (Vince is close to 500 yrds and at 5-6 TDs through 10). Does this mean he's a LOCK to become the next football great and get the Hall of Fame? Heck no. However, it shows that Vince is farther along than any of these yahoos want to give him credit for.

I don't think many people would be complaining if they didn't see ESPSuck CONTINUALLY bash Vince over and over and over. I mean when he was playing college ball they trashed him. When he lost the Heisman to Reggie they trashed him. After he owned USC in the Rose Bowl they started trashing him so he wouldn't get drafted as high. Then after the Titans picked him #3 over Matty Whineart they trashed him AND the Titans. Then the attacks even got personal from Merril Hoge and ESPSuck did nothing to curb his nonsense. Also, the criticisms of VY are totally unwarranted. Everyone made fun of his Wonderlic score (including MANY on this site) and were just plain rude about him being this stupid guy and all. Yet somehow he's already figured out a pro-offensive playbook and has beaten 6 teams. They acted like Vince couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with his passes and that they'd ALL get knocked down because of his silly throwing motion. In the past 6 games he's been completing over 60% of his passes....

We don't have to crown the guy yet but sheesh, just get off his back, ya know?

EDIT: And YES. . .Vince DOES have a ways to go as a QB. And that should be the scariest thing for every NFL team out there. Look how good the guy is through 10 weeks and remember that he seems to grow exponentially every year in how well he understands/plays the game (see his improvement from sophomore to junior year). If he continues to get better. . .man. . .I need to start betting on the Titans and finding out where to get Super Bowl tickets for a couple of years down the road.
I'm buying into the ESPN propoganda? You sure about that? Last I checked, Hoge was Vince's only critic from the network, hardly qualifying ESPN as anti-Vince.

I worked in the business for several years and learned how to see every angle of every situation. Just because you don't give Hoge much credit doesn't mean he doesn't have a good point. I think he makes great points and if Vince doesn't fix it he'll be in a world of trouble as an NFL QB.

Like I said, we obviously have a bunch of Vince fans on board. The facts that most of the people on the board not only live in Texas (and are UT fans) and saw him pull off one of the greatest bowl game comebacks (and a couple of other great comebakcs against two OSU's) of all time 11 months ago makes us think he's really invinceable. But the truth is that he had two full years in college, and improved by miles between his sophomore and junior years, and has only had half an NFL season under his belt. DC's haven't had a chance to catch up with his growth curve yet. They will eventually, and that's when we'll know how good of a quarterback he is.

Anyone who runs as well as Vince will be a tough NFL QB to defend, but he's going to have to make huge steps in the passing game to become as good an NFL QB as everyone's already crowning him.

PS: I know Vince has a long way to go as an NFL QB, but so did Randall Cunningham, Kordell Stewart, Donovan McNabb, and Mike Vick. Cunningham was effective for a few years, then fell off the map until resurfacing for the Vikings in the late 90's-- with the ability to throw the ball. Stewart never quite put it together. McNabb forced himself to learn to become a pocket passer and became an All-Pro. Vick (the most athletic of them all) started out great, but has become stagnant as an NFL QB and may go the way of Cunningham before too long.

[JR2004]

Originally posted by big daddy russ

I'm on the Vince bandwagon as of this second, but I'm at the back of the wagon and could fall off very easily. Maybe Merril isn't all that big on Young, but he's been around the game a lot longer than any of us and always bases his thoughts on facts.


Not completely true. His analysis of Vince is filled with truth as well as some just plain hatred. To be honest he's coming across as being a bit psycho in how vociferious he is in his criticism of Vince. It's really strange to listen to how he talks about Vince in comparison to how he usually will analyze a particular player.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by JR2004
Not completely true. His analysis of Vince is filled with truth as well as some just plain hatred. To be honest he's coming across as being a bit psycho in how vociferious he is in his criticism of Vince. It's really strange to listen to how he talks about Vince in comparison to how he usually will analyze a particular player.
I don't know about all that. Granted, I don't watch him all the time; maybe once every other week; but he seems more intent on getting his point across that Vince isn't yet a complete NFL QB than anything else.

I don't think it's personal, I just think he feels he's the only one in his small corner who sees the flaws in Vince's game and has to justify it repeatedly.

[mrescape43]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I don't know about all that. Granted, I don't watch him all the time; maybe once every other week; but he seems more intent on getting his point across that Vince isn't yet a complete NFL QB than anything else.

I don't think it's personal, I just think he feels he's the only one in his small corner who sees the flaws in Vince's game and has to justify it repeatedly.

I agree with you on this one.

[LitanyofFury]

If you think that Hoge is the only ESPN analyst that has ripped on Vince than obviously you haven't been keeping up with their braodcasts over the past year or so.

Hoge is the only one LATELY after Vince has had his mirace comebacks to keep on with the Vince bashing. Also, Hoge is the only one that made it overtly personal and vicious. However, the rest of the analysts were talking smack about Vince before the Heisman ceremony, after the ceremony, before the Rose Bowl, then before the NFL Draft (said Leinart and Cutler were light years ahead of Vince and that he'd go 7th to the Raiders. . .***?), and it just never stops.

I mean, it's pretty obvious that all the things they've been dogging Vince for have been straw man arguments and just attempts to bring Vince's status down. I mean look at how they took off on Vince's supposed Wonderlic score. First they took FALSE information about how he scored a 5 on it and then dogged him for scoring a 15. They didn't talk about any other players who scored a 15 or worse. Just Vince. Nevermind that QB greats like Montana and Marino didn't score worth a damn on it either. . .all of a sudden it matters for Vince.

Then they dogged on his throwing motion and how he'd get ALL his passes knocked down. Nevermind other QB greats that had different releases that worked out fine. How many passes of Vince's have gotten batted down this year? Not many.

And yes. . .he's already beaten teams with his arm. 21 points in the 4th quarter against the Giants wasn't all Vince running the ball. Sorry. He's been completing over 60% of his passes. Yeah, he beats teams with his arm as well.

You can doubt Vince and criticize him, I mean you're a fan of football so that's your right. However, I wouldn't say it's the smartest thing in the world to do considering the track record of people that have done it up to this point. Also, please. . .stop with trying to defend that A-hole Hoge. The guy has CLEARLY overstepped the bounds on his "analysis" of Vince. . .even his co-workers are starting to recognize it. He needs to be reprimanded if not fired and let go.

[big daddy russ]

Whoa, whoa, whoa... they're knocking Vince by saying that he should've fallen to seventh? Is that what I'm hearing from you?

Saying that he's the seventh-best football prospect to come out of college is hardly a knock at all.

Let's get one thing straight. I'm a complete draftnik. Love keeping up with it and check out the rankings year-round.

I've got news for everyone who thinks that "ESPN hates Vince".... the only person from ESPN who makes those rankings is Mel Kiper. That's right, Mel Kiper, a scout, was the one "hating on Vince." Think of everyone else as "color commentary." Vince's stock saw a sharp spike immediately after the Rose Bowl then evened back out as time went on.

But since ESPN's scouting report doesn't work for you, let's get Scott Wright's. IMO, the best eye for talent in the nation.



2006 QB's
1. Matt Leinart Southern Cal
2. Vince Young Texas
3. Jay Cutler Vanderbilt

2006 Top 300 Players Overall
1. Reggie Bush, RB, Southern Cal
2. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, OT, Virginia
3. Mario Williams, DE, North Carolina St.
4. Matt Leinart, QB, Southern Cal
5. Vernon Davis, TE, Maryland
6. A.J. Hawk, OLB, Ohio St.
7. Vince Young, QB, Texas
8. Michael Huff, S, Texas
9. Haloti Ngata, DT, Oregon
10. Antonio Cromartie, CB, Florida St.
11. Winston Justice, OT, Southern Cal
12. DeAngelo Williams, RB, Memphis
13. Ernie Sims, OLB, Florida St.
14. Jimmy Williams, CB, Virginia Tech
15. Brodrick Bunkley, DT, Florida St.
16. Jay Cutler, QB, Vanderbilt
17. Manny Lawson, DE, North Carolina St.
18. Santonio Holmes, WR, Ohio St.
19. Chad Jackson, WR, Florida
20. Tye Hill, CB, Clemson


Those were his final rankings. He contemplated switching Vince and Cutler there towards the end, but decided against it. And dang, those rankings sure look similar to ESPN's (if I remember correctly, Vince was rated at number eight overall). He evened out in the five-to-ten-range according to ESPN, nfldraftcountdown.com, and most NFL GM's. Doesn't sound like much hate there, just informed people who saw a few questions in his game.

Wright went on to say that Vince had trouble with accuracy on his deep ball and MAKING HIS READS. Sound familiar?

That's exactly what Hoge said Vince did wrong. Hoge said Vince made the wrong read, as he has done all year.

You seem to think that everyone hates Vince because they don't think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. They saw the flaws in his game and talked about them. And because of all these people...


Originally posted by big daddy russ
...all the Vince clones out there...

...there's been a HUGE backlash at the guy. He seems a lot more informed to me than anyone else on the Downlow and still has a loooong ways to go before he proves his doubters wrong, and screaming about how one of them points out the flaws in his game isn't going to stop that.

[LitanyofFury]

Actually, anyone who's seen Vince play IN PERSON knows he IS the greatest thing since sliced bread.:p

Really, I think it's all a ploy by ESPSuck to garner ratings. They probably flipped a coin for who was going to have to bash Vince day in and day out so the ROY award would stay close and they could get a lot of ratings out of arguing about it.

Just glad I and my fellow Horn fans are being proven right about Vince. We all knew the truth and it's nice to see other people finally coming around to the obvious. The kid is awesome.

The Titans also have 11 draft picks and are $40 mill under the cap. They are gonna be dangerous next year and I wouldn't be surprised to see them in a Super Bowl in the next 3-5 years.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by LitanyofFury
...We all knew the truth and it's nice to see other people finally coming around to the obvious. The kid is awesome.

The Titans also have 11 draft picks and are $40 mill under the cap. They are gonna be dangerous next year and I wouldn't be surprised to see them in a Super Bowl in the next 3-5 years.
I completely agree with you. I wasn't big on the idea of Vince as an NFL QB until about about a month ago. As of last week, he I became a believer.

I honestly think he'll wind up even better than Cunningham, McNabb, and Vick. Vick's a RB who's allowed to throw the ball, Cunningham never figured out how to put the two together, and as good as McNabb is, I think Young has the intangibles and killer instinct that Montana, Favre, and all the greats had.

[Bulldog_12]

I agree with Hoge, VINCE SUCKS! I also hear he punches babies.

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by Bulldog_12
I agree with Hoge, VINCE SUCKS! I also hear he punches babies. Only white ones

[g$$]

VY has done some great things, & no doubt he is a winner. But let's not forget he is 31st out of 32 in passing & very low in some other statistical areas too. Accuracy & reading defenses are the two biggest obstacles he faces as an NFL QB.

To reach true superstar greatness, he will need to improve a lot as a passer. I have said that since day one. Russ is saying the same thing.

Today vs. the Jags, he looked like a rookie (team had 99 total yds. & did nothing all day). But thanks to the defense, the Titans won the game.

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by g$$
VY has done some great things, & no doubt he is a winner. But let's not forget he is 31st out of 32 in passing & very low in some other statistical areas too. Accuracy & reading defenses are the two biggest obstacles he faces as an NFL QB.

To reach true superstar greatness, he will need to improve a lot as a passer. I have said that since day one. Russ is saying the same thing.

Today vs. the Jags, he looked like a rookie (team had 99 total yds. & did nothing all day). But thanks to the defense, the Titans won the game.

I think some positives are the last four games until today he completiting at about a 63% average and today even though he was 8 of 15 he did not throw any ints

A couple of times he did not seem to feel or see the rush well, and I think a few times he should have ran but did not. Still though it is another win.

[LitanyofFury]

Too true. The thing coaches want rookie QBs to do more than anything is NOT TURN THE BALL OVER. Vince (and the entire offense) played bad today but Vince didn't give the ball to the Jags like Garrard did. Matt Leinart racked up some yards today but he also threw some costly INTs. Vince has gotten a lot better at not turning the ball over and it's helped the Titans keep winning.