Region IV might have a spoiler [Archive]

big daddy russ

10-19-2006, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by herewego
Don't know a bloody thing about them, but Rio Hondo is smashing people left and right. I assume they haven't played anyone over a "6" on a 1-10 scale, but they've murdered all their opponents.

Does anyone know anything about them?
Ingleside played them last year in the second round of the playoffs. Hell of a ball club. Even though we beat them by 19, it was a lot closer than the score indicated. Carrying on the Port Isabel tradition of great football teams out of the Valley.

I know they brought back most of their studs and you can bet they'll be a factor in the playoffs. Heck, we only lost five or six kids from last years' team (I think we lost four starters... three to graduation and one was a move-out) and I think they're better than we are right now. Very physical, smash-mouth, and bring it when they play you. I'm interested to see how far they go in a watered-down R4... especially if they wind up going d2.

Highschoolfan78

10-19-2006, 02:32 PM

it could be hondo or hondo on the river.. either one is undefeated :D

herewego

10-19-2006, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Highschoolfan78
it could be hondo or hondo on the river.. either one is undefeated :D

I joked about that the other day LOL

Ray_BearKat

10-19-2006, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Ingleside played them last year in the second round of the playoffs. Hell of a ball club. Even though we beat them by 19, it was a lot closer than the score indicated. Carrying on the Port Isabel tradition of great football teams out of the Valley.

I know they brought back most of their studs and you can bet they'll be a factor in the playoffs. Heck, we only lost five or six kids from last years' team (I think we lost four starters... three to graduation and one was a move-out) and I think they're better than we are right now. Very physical, smash-mouth, and bring it when they play you. I'm interested to see how far they go in a watered-down R4... especially if they wind up going d2.

RH will go D2 enrollment-wise there is no other possibility for them...

herewego

10-19-2006, 02:36 PM

I think Region IV teams would fare better if they'd prepare for the playoffs by scheduling early non-district games with teams 100-plus miles north of them.

Otherwise, they fall into the playoff abyss like in El Paso, where they consider "state" the Area Game in Round 2! LOL

big daddy russ

10-19-2006, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Ray_BearKat
RH will go D2 enrollment-wise there is no other possibility for them...
Man, I'm just all out of the loop. Just a while ago, I posted that Wimberley would be the D1 favorite out of R4, then found out they're a D2 team this year.

herewego

10-19-2006, 02:43 PM

Rio Hondo must be pretty talented to be ranked 13th in Class 3A in Jerry's Pigskin Prep

pirate4state

10-19-2006, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Ray_BearKat
RH will go D2 enrollment-wise there is no other possibility for them... Who are the favorites out of this district?? Port Isabel, Hidalgo & Rio Hondo is the order Dave had them in. Are we looking at Rio Hondo, Port Isabel and Hidalgo in that order?? If so Hidalgo will go DI.

big daddy russ

10-19-2006, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by herewego
I think Region IV teams would fare better if they'd prepare for the playoffs by scheduling early non-district games with teams 100-plus miles north of them.

Otherwise, they fall into the playoff abyss like in El Paso, where they consider "state" the Area Game in Round 2! LOL
Only problem with that is that when Port Isabel or Rio Hondo plays someone 100 miles north, they're playing Kingsville (a town about 30 minutes south of Corpus). When Corpus teams play squads 100 miles north, they're playing Cuero and Victoria.

We'd (the Corpus area) have to go 150-200 miles north to start getting into the Centex area. The Valley would have to go about 350 miles north to get to the same area.

But our 3A district around Corpus is traditionally pretty solid. It's the only one within an hour and a half drive of CC, but typically Sinton's strong, along with at least one other team from the district. In 2002, Sinton went to the Regional Finals and gave Burnet a hell of a game, and Aransas Pass may have been the best team in the state that lost in the second round of the playoffs. Hell, their RB was the Mountain West Conference Defensive Player of the Year last year... as a sophomore. This year, Ingleside's pretty strong, but it's just a down year overall for the district and the region. A few years back, we had one team in the Championship and one team in the Regional Final (Quarterfinals).

Immediately to our north, you have the Cuero district (Goliad, the southernmost team in that district, is a little more than an hour... maybe 1:15 to 1:30... away from Corpus), so we're close to good 3A competition. Unfortunately, R4 gets labeled as the outcasts in 3A football when it's not 3A ball that drags us down. It's the big schools.

I know R4 gets knocked for not having the same-quality teams as other parts of the state, but when you take away roughly 1/3 of a particular region's teams, the quality of play (of course) is going to suffer. As it stands right now, we only have about six, maybe seven teams who could make a run in R2, but not much else. When you stack that up against all the talent in R3, it's obvious that we're lacking quality teams.... but we're also just lacking teams period.

herewego

10-19-2006, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Only problem with that is that when Port Isabel or Rio Hondo plays someone 100 miles north, they're playing Kingsville (a town about 30 minutes south of Corpus). When Corpus teams play squads 100 miles north, they're playing Cuero and Victoria.

We'd (the Corpus area) have to go 150-200 miles north to start getting into the Centex area. The Valley would have to go about 350 miles north to get to the same area.

But our 3A district around Corpus is traditionally pretty solid. It's the only one within an hour and a half drive of CC, but typically Sinton's strong, along with at least one other team from the district. In 2002, Sinton went to the Regional Finals and gave Burnet a hell of a game, and Aransas Pass may have been the best team in the state that lost in the second round of the playoffs. Hell, their RB was the Mountain West Conference Defensive Player of the Year last year... as a sophomore. This year, Ingleside's pretty strong, but it's just a down year overall for the district and the region. A few years back, we had one team in the Championship and one team in the Regional Final (Quarterfinals).

Immediately to our north, you have the Cuero district (Goliad, the southernmost team in that district, is a little more than an hour... maybe 1:15 to 1:30... away from Corpus), so we're close to good 3A competition. Unfortunately, R4 gets labeled as the outcasts in 3A football when it's not 3A ball that drags us down. It's the big schools.

I know R4 gets knocked for not having the same-quality teams as other parts of the state, but when you take away roughly 1/3 of a particular region's teams, the quality of play (of course) is going to suffer. As it stands right now, we only have about six, maybe seven teams who could make a run in R2, but not much else. When you stack that up against all the talent in R3, it's obvious that we're lacking quality teams.... but we're also just lacking teams period.

THen maybe the 3A teams down south could at least challenge some decent 4As that aren't too far - like Calallen, for example.

big daddy russ

10-19-2006, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by herewego
THen maybe the 3A teams down south could at least challenge some decent 4As that aren't too far - like Calallen, for example.
I would've loved to play Calallen, Gregory-Portland, or Beeville this year, but it just never happened. I guess that throttling that Port Lavaca-Calhoun gave us was enough for one year.

pirate4state

10-19-2006, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by herewego
THen maybe the 3A teams down south could at least challenge some decent 4As that aren't too far - like Calallen, for example. LOL! Calallen doesn't schedule lowly 3A teams!! :rolleyes: I'm not saying they never have. I'm just saying they haven't in awhile.

pirate4state

10-19-2006, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I would've loved to play Calallen, Gregory-Portland, or Beeville this year, but it just never happened. I guess that throttling that Port Lavaca-Calhoun gave us was enough for one year. I would have loved to see the 2001 team play Calallen. Boy would that have been a game!!!

Russ - you can have GP & Beeville next year! :p :p

piratebg

10-19-2006, 03:04 PM

Sinton played Calallen back in 96 or 97 and lost 14-0. That is the only time I remember the Pirates playing them.

big daddy russ

10-19-2006, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by pirate4state
I would have loved to see the 2001 team play Calallen. Boy would that have been a game!!!

Russ - you can have GP & Beeville next year! :p :p
LOL. I know we have a lot coming back, but I'm not sure we want them next year. I think this was our year to call them out.

pirate4state

10-19-2006, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by piratebg
Sinton played Calallen back in 96 or 97 and lost 14-0. That is the only time I remember the Pirates playing them. Maroon87 remembers us playing back in the early 90's and he was crushed I didn't remember b/c we beat them!!! LMAO.

SintonFan_inAustin

10-19-2006, 04:15 PM

we played them in the '80s, we were in 4a in the early '80s. They were not very good back then.

neck_06

10-19-2006, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by herewego
Rio Hondo (7-0) BOBCATS

21-7 over Weslaco East
48-7 over Lyford
55-0 over Pharr Valley View
40-0 over Roma
42-7 over Raymondville
51-7 over Brownsville St. Joseph
64-0 over Progreso

thats a pretty tough schedule....:rolleyes:

g$$

10-19-2006, 05:51 PM

Region 4, other than a handful of teams, is weak every year.

Not saying there are no good teams - but certainly not the quantity of them. And now w/ realignment, even weaker.

Region 3 is traditionally the strongest as a whole, IMO.

Gobbla2001

10-19-2006, 05:56 PM

Region 4 is actually stronger most years than people expect... seriously...

how many people who say "damn, it's so weak" ever really see those teams play etc...?

This year is weak, but better than I expected with Wimberly blasting ass again...

Wimberly, Cuero, Hondo, MAYBE Rio Hondo (who knows, never seen 'em, could be good)...

I've seen other region's teams blast the hell out of all of the teams in their region and then get to semi's or state against a Region 4 who didn't blow anyone out and either play a very close game or end up losing...

I think it depends on which region you're from, you're gunna be biased... Region 4's top 10 teams might be just as good as any other region's top 10, below that maybe not, but we're not that far off...

wimbo_pro

10-19-2006, 05:56 PM

Pretty tough schedule? Massey ranks their schedule as #171 out of #174 teams in 3A!!! It doesnt get much weaker than that.

I know nothing about Rio Hondo, same with many teams discussed on this board. So I go to sites that list their stats, their ranking and their ratings. Based on this, Rio Hondo is no threat to most play off bound teams in Region 4. But of course, we have seen stats be way off....so tell me why you might think these stats ARE off.

neck_06

10-19-2006, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
Pretty tough schedule? Massey ranks their schedule as #171 out of #174 teams in 3A!!! It doesnt get much weaker than that.

I know nothing about Rio Hondo, same with many teams discussed on this board. So I go to sites that list their stats, their ranking and their ratings. Based on this, Rio Hondo is no threat to most play off bound teams in Region 4. But of course, we have seen stats be way off....so tell me why you might think these stats ARE off.

did you not catch the rollie eyes face? i'll make it a little more clear.

thats a pretty tough schedule....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

carter08

10-19-2006, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by wimbo_pro
Pretty tough schedule? Massey ranks their schedule as #171 out of #174 teams in 3A!!! It doesnt get much weaker than that.

I know nothing about Rio Hondo, same with many teams discussed on this board. So I go to sites that list their stats, their ranking and their ratings. Based on this, Rio Hondo is no threat to most play off bound teams in Region 4. But of course, we have seen stats be way off....so tell me why you might think these stats ARE off.

But is is tougher than 3 other teams
which means its not the weakest
which makes it tough

Gobbla2001

10-19-2006, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by neck_06
did you not catch the rollie eyes face? i'll make it a little more clear.

thats a pretty tough schedule....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

haha

g$$

10-19-2006, 06:07 PM

Region 4 as a WHOLE is weaker, that was the point.

No knock on the good programs like Cuero, Wimberley, etc.

I played in Region 3 & 4, & have watched it for years too.

Refugio, Hondo, Medina Valley, etc. used to be good too. Hondo it appears may be good again.

NO way Region 4 as a WHOLE can compete with the speed & athleticism Region 3 offers from the Houston Area & moving east towards Beaumont. That is simple demographics.

Region 4 is pretty salty in baseball though.

Put it this way, we always wanted to be in Region 4. Chances of advancing deep go way up unless you get a rough opening round draw.

Not trying to fight with anyone. But you cannot compare the top teams only from each region - body of work & overall quantity & quality of teams must be included.

Gobbla2001

10-19-2006, 06:11 PM

I see your point, Gmoneymoney... don't get me wrong...

just stating it isn't as weak as most people think...

3afan

10-19-2006, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
.....
I've seen other region's teams blast the hell out of all of the teams in their region and then get to semi's or state against a Region 4 who didn't blow anyone out and either play a very close game or end up losing...
....

how the regional champs fare against each other is not a very good gauge of that regions strength .... top to bottom, regions II & III are always going to be stronger than regions I & IV

IMO of course ...

g$$

10-19-2006, 06:20 PM

Agreed. And that's not just our opinions, year in/year out results bear that out.

Top to bottom is the key, not just the best from each region.

My senior year, we beat the dog out of Dripping Springs 3 rounds deep (JV played 4th quarter), then had to beat a team from our district in the quarterfinals, before losing in the semis.

That happens quite often if you look.

But the top teams from Region 4 obviously can play & beat anyone most of the time.

Gobbla2001

10-19-2006, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by 3afan
how the regional champs fare against each other is not a very good gauge of that regions strength .... top to bottom, regions II & III are always going to be stronger than regions I & IV

IMO of course ...

I know, and I've argued that plenty of times, the example by me was used as a tool to go ahead and get any of the "this team beat that team" type stuff out of the way...:thumbsup:

herewego

10-19-2006, 06:26 PM

Let's talk about Robert Strait and the influence football in Cuero made on him. Gosh what ever happened to old Rob?

:clap:
:smoker:

3afan

10-19-2006, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by herewego
Let's talk about Robert Strait and the influence football in Cuero made on him. Gosh what ever happened to old Rob?

:clap:
:smoker:

where did that come from ??? :confused:

Gobbla2001

10-19-2006, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by herewego
Let's talk about Robert Strait and the influence football in Cuero made on him. Gosh what ever happened to old Rob?

:clap:
:smoker:

Yah, he'd get high and still run ape-chit all over Texas' other players...

why aren't you being the "bigger, more mature" man in these little arguements?

you're crackin' me up...

herewego

10-19-2006, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
Yah, he'd get high and still run ape-chit all over Texas' other players...

why aren't you being the "bigger, more mature" man in these little arguements?

you're crackin' me up...

If you liked that one, you should try THE BODY WASH!!

on the other thread................:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Gobbla2001

10-19-2006, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by herewego
If you liked that one, you should try THE BODY WASH!!

on the other thread................:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

that's some crappy body wash, old man...

you get offended too easily, it's halarious...

g$$

10-19-2006, 06:34 PM

All I have to say is I played against him & he was a bad dude. Just an absolute hoss. 6'2" 215, sub 4.5 40 yd. dash - are you kidding me? Knee injuries & "other" derailed a promising career. Barry Switzer was there recruiting him the day we scrimmaged them my senior year.

Sad story really. And he should never have gone to Baylor.

sinton66

10-19-2006, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by g$$
Region 4 as a WHOLE is weaker, that was the point.

No knock on the good programs like Cuero, Wimberley, etc.

I played in Region 3 & 4, & have watched it for years too.

Refugio, Hondo, Medina Valley, etc. used to be good too. Hondo it appears may be good again.

NO way Region 4 as a WHOLE can compete with the speed & athleticism Region 3 offers from the Houston Area & moving east towards Beaumont. That is simple demographics.

Region 4 is pretty salty in baseball though.

Put it this way, we always wanted to be in Region 4. Chances of advancing deep go way up unless you get a rough opening round draw.

Not trying to fight with anyone. But you cannot compare the top teams only from each region - body of work & overall quantity & quality of teams must be included.

here's a question for you. In the last 6 years. how many 3A region 4 teams have made the state finals? I didn't ask how many they won, just how many were in there.

SintonFan

10-19-2006, 07:09 PM

3afan

10-19-2006, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by sinton66
here's a question for you. In the last 6 years. how many 3A region 4 teams have made the state finals? I didn't ask how many they won, just how many were in there.

2000
3A Division I - Gatesville 14, Abilene Wylie 10
3A Division II - La Grange 20, Forney 17 :(

2001
3A Division I - Everman 25, Sinton 14
3A Division II - Commerce 14, La Grange 11

2002
3A Division I - Everman 35, Burnet 14
3A Division II - Bandera 27, Midland Greenwood 24 (2OT)

2003
3A Division I - Gainesville 35, Burnet 24
3A Division II - Atlanta 34, Marlin 0

2004
3A Division I - Abilene Wylie 17, Cuero 14
3A Division II - Gilmer 49, Jasper 47

2005
3A Division I - Wimberley 21, Gainesville 7
3A Division II - Tatum 38, Hutto 34

someone else can count & answer the question!
:thumbsup:

sinton66

10-19-2006, 07:25 PM

I count six. It's at least one for each of the last five years. Sounds like R4 does okay competing with R3 to me. If six of them made the finals, doesn't that mean they beat R3 in the semi's?

g$$

10-19-2006, 07:37 PM

I have never disputed the quality of the TOP teams in Region 4. Are you saying the region AS A WHOLE is as strong top to bottom as others? Please read my other posts.

Not just the best teams, but the region in its entirety. I challenge anyone on that one.

In general, Region 3 is the Houston Area & surrounding schools.
In general, Region 2 is the Dallas Area & surrounding schools.

Quite a difference in population & demographics.

This is not to dismiss all of Region 4 as weak. But Regions 2 & 3 will always have more quality teams.

Do you disagree?

SintonFan

10-19-2006, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by g$$
I have never disputed the quality of the TOP teams in Region 4. Are you saying the region AS A WHOLE is as strong top to bottom as others? Please read my other posts.

Not just the best teams, but the region in its entirety. I challenge anyone on that one.

In general, Region 3 is the Houston Area & surrounding schools.
In general, Region 2 is the Dallas Area & surrounding schools.

Quite a difference in population & demographics.

This is not to dismiss all of Region 4 as weak. But Regions 2 & 3 will always have more quality teams.

Do you disagree?
.
90% of all 3A teams seem like they are in regions 2 & 3. In truth it's more like 89%. So yes there should be more teams in region 2 and 3.:D :p

LH Panther Mom

10-19-2006, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by sinton66
doesn't that mean they beat R3 in the semi's?
Yeah, but you know it's because the R3 teams beat each other up getting to the semis. :p ;)

g$$

10-19-2006, 07:46 PM

That's like saying all the girls at a university of say 30,000 are ugly. Of course not, law of averages says some will be ok, some ugly, some pretty, & some off the charts.

Miss America might come from this school, but another school may have far more of the prettier women per capita.

Just like Region 4 has some very good teams each year, state champs included. That does not make their region the best as a whole. Right? Nor does it guarantee another school from a stronger region of winning it all.

All I am saying is TOP to BOTTOM quality.

My goodness, I detect some bitterness from Region 4 people & I did not intend that kind of message to be conveyed at all.

SintonFan

10-19-2006, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by g$$
That's like saying all the girls at a university of say 30,000 are ugly. Of course not, law of averages says some will be ok, some ugly, some pretty, & some off the charts.

Miss America might come from this school, but another school may have far more prettier women per capita.

Just like Region 4 has some very good teams each year, state champs included. That does not make their region the best as a whole. Right? Nor does it guarantee another school from a stronger region of winning it all.

All I am saying is TOP to BOTTOM quality.
.
You lost me at and I quote:

all the girls at a university of say 30,000 :D :inlove:
.
Look g$$, this has been cussed and discussed about a 1000 times here. The top teams of darn near every region are pretty equal, except for the recent dominance by region 2. The bottom teams of all regions seem pretty equal too. Region 2 and 3 do have more teams on average and it does appear that on average, more teams of a lil higher quality do make the playoffs. And to continue that point,
I'm sure the competition level looks to be somewhat higher. Again, we've discussed this more times than I care to remember...:doh: :p

SintonFan

10-19-2006, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by g$$
My goodness, I detect some bitterness from Region 4 people & I did not intend that kind of message to be conveyed at all.
.
Not necessarily bitterness but most folks from this region will defend it. Would you expect otherwise?:thinking:

g$$

10-19-2006, 08:03 PM

All I know is this: I played in both regions due to realignment. Bad teams make the playoffs in every region, esp. now with more teams going in. But, more bad teams are still around deeper in the playoffs from Region 4.

That is not a slap at Region 4 at all. Many fine programs are in Region 4, just not the quantity of them. And the best from Region 4 can play with anyone.

Yes, I would expect you to defend your turf so to speak. But I would also expect you to be fair in that assessment.

BTW, my analogy of women at a particular school was just to illiustrate the law of averages.

Do you think Region 4 is as strong TOP to BOTTOM as say Region 3? Please answer that.

big daddy russ

10-19-2006, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by sinton66
I count six. It's at least one for each of the last five years. Sounds like R4 does okay competing with R3 to me. If six of them made the finals, doesn't that mean they beat R3 in the semi's?
It was eight. LaGrange x2, Sinton, Bunet x2, Bandera, Cuero, Wimberley.

SintonFan

10-19-2006, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by g$$
Do you think Region 4 is as strong TOP to BOTTOM as say Region 3? Please answer that.
.

Region 2 and 3 do have more teams on average and it does appear that on average, more teams of a lil higher quality do make the playoffs. And to continue that point,
I'm sure the competition level looks to be somewhat higher.
lol Did this not answer that question?
:)

sinton66

10-19-2006, 08:09 PM

Aren't Gatesville and LaGrange in R3? You could be right. I don't know.

SintonFan

10-19-2006, 08:10 PM

Wasn't this thread about Rio Hondo?
.
Click this...Some good Rio Hondo stuff (http://bbs.3adownlow.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=52291) :cool:

LH Panther Mom

10-19-2006, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by sinton66
Aren't Gatesville and LaGrange in R3? You could be right. I don't know.
I believe La Grange was in Region IV in 2000, if I'm not mistaken....yes, currently in 3.

SintonFan

10-19-2006, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by sinton66
Aren't Gatesville and LaGrange in R3? You could be right. I don't know.
.
La Grange was Reg. 4 when they won the title.:)

sinton66

10-19-2006, 08:13 PM

g$$

10-19-2006, 08:15 PM

And look at those #s: 2 schools (Burnet & LaGrange) made up half the total with each advancing twice. Then you have Cuero, Wimberley, Sinton, etc. who are perenially good.

That's my point in a nutshell. A few programs dominate the landscape almost every year. But are you saying TOP to BOTTOM as good as say Region 3?

big daddy russ

10-19-2006, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by sinton66
Aren't Gatesville and LaGrange in R3? You could be right. I don't know.
Don't know why I threw Gatesville in there. I even said eight, but listed nine. I'll chalk it up to a brain fart.

LaGrange is in R3 right now, but they're flip-floppers. They were R4 from 2000-2004.

sinton66

10-19-2006, 08:31 PM

What I'm saying is if R3 is that good top to bottom, wouldn't the cream rise to the top? That's the natural progression in football. Your assumption is based on an unprovable concept because you haven't played any R4 teams on any sort of regular basis except in the playoffs. Agreed, the far south end of R4 is weaker compared to the rest of the state. I'm sure there are areas in every region that would compare the same.

SintonFan_inAustin

10-19-2006, 11:22 PM

When Sinton went to the state finals they whoop on Bridge City 38-0 and they played much closer games in Region 4 bracket.

all that i know since 2000 Region 4 rep beats Region 3 rep:) in one of the Div's. seems region 3 has good teams but no great teams;)

wimbo_pro

10-19-2006, 11:43 PM

NECK....my bad. No, I didnt see the rolling eyes the first time, will keep an eye out for them in the future!!!

g$$

10-20-2006, 02:40 PM

May the best teams win. Sorry if I stirred something up.

I have played in both Region 3 & Region 4. Basketball had even a bigger gap until the Regional Finals if at all. The BEST teams can play with anybody, anytime regardless of region. In Sweeny, we won 3/4 state titles & competed in both regions during that time. Should have won 4 in a row - we choked at Regionals one year. I do think Region 4 is better than it used to be.

My only point was TOP to BOTTOM, not just the final few elite teams left standing. Good luck to all.