Lets talk softball.

[The Bull]

Who do you think are good high school softball coaches in Souththeast Texas? There are a few that come to my mind Randy Ragsdale at W.O.S. always fields a competive team. Sissy Lemons at Bridge City is another, Jerry Gore at Kirbyville is another. What's your opinon?

[Old No. 7]

Jerry Gore. I bet Ragsdale is hopeing W.O.S. dosen't drop to 3a. Just my 2cents worth. :)

[Old Cardinal]

Boy, I agree that Randy Ragsdale(WO-S) and Sissy Lemons(BC) are good Coaches but I would also add Coach Marcy Anderson(Buna) and Coach Shorty at H-F. As for Mr. Gore, I watched Sissy Lemons totally out-Coach him when Bridge City beat Kirbyville 12-1 in a preseason game last year.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[The Bull]

I take nothing away from the above mentioned coaches they all do a good job. Old Cardinal I understand your facicination with Bridge City and I would agree with you that they are loaded this year and a good bet to win it all, but I have to disagree with you on Coach Gore form Kirbyville. I know he had Tankersleys last year but the last time I checked she never threw a prefect game and got all twnety one outs in any game and she did not score every run or for that matter drive in every run. I followed all the teams form Southeast Texas during the course of the playoffs and in my opinion Coach Gore gets more from less talented players than anybody else in the area. During the second round of district and the playoffs very few people pitched to Tankersley, so somebody had to pick up the slack. Last time I check softball was a team sport and its takes nine players on the field not just a select team pitcher or player. Besides Kirbyville was winning district titles without select team players before Tankersley arrived last time I checked and usually playing futher in the playoffs than most 3A teams in the area. Sure they are going to be down this year, but I bet they will still field a very competive group of young ladies.

[Old Cardinal]

I guess we just disagree, I saw them play, Holly was the whole team; probably the best girl athlete in the state. Had she not taken Splendora with her pitching and her bat, Splendora would have been the State Champion! Those girls trained through the Beaumaont Blast program are always some of the best in the state.

[Phil C]

Old is right. It is a team thing. Look at California last year. They had a great hitter last year that played first base. I don't remember her name but I know that teams walked her most of the time because her batting was awesome. Of course California had other good batters also which is why they got as far as they did.

[Phil C]

Hey Old can you give us some more information on that Beaumont Blast program.

[middleagecardinal]

I somewhat agree with both, Old and Bull. At the high school level, every coach has to settle for what he or she has to pick from. It's hard to determine whether one is better than the other. One coach with 9 determined B level kids could beat a team of 9 A level kids whom could care less and then everyone thinks that they must have a great coach that can win with less quality kids. In the Kirbyville/BC preseason game last year, I'm not so sure that Gore was out-coached. When you have to put Holly behind the plate because their catcher was out and no one else could catch Holly, it really handicaps your game plan. Imagine Old Card if Lemoine was out and Gremillion had to catch during that game as well(and did not have an all-stater to back her up on the mound). Do you think that the score would have been the same. I doubt it.

Also, the term "select team", in my opinion, has become over rated. I have seen that there are different levels of play. Thus, you may say that you play "select" ball but it may be on a team that could not compete with a little league team. (no offense). The select teams that warrant the nods are those that can compete in the gold level qualifiers. These are teams that do not just let any body come play. They SELECT the players they think can help them win at that level. However, what ever level you play, the key is that you are playing. You will not get better unless you are playing and these girls do help their high school programs. I would not say that BC is loaded with select team player, but I would say that most of the starters play softball outside of high school and a couple play on a select team and another is getting some instruction at a select team level.

[WoodvilleFan]

I think the 2nd year coach at Woodville, Barbara Burnett, will be a great coach. She is young and in her first HC position. She will have a successful program. I just hope that Woodville can keep her so she can be successfull in Woodville. Unfortunately, I think she will leave in a couple of years for a better job. The Woodville girls don't take softball to seriously.

[The Bull]

Good points middleagecardinal. Coaches have to play the cards they are dealt and I think any coach will tell you that it's a lot easlier to be successful if you have the talent pool. I don't think Coach Gore is the best coach around I just think he does a great job with the players he has to coach. I still beleive that one player does not make a team no matter how good she is or can be. If the select team theory holds up then Kirbyville should have never won the state championship because the majority of the schools in thier district have select team players and the teams they played in the playoffs where all select team players.

[Phil C]

It sure seems like softball is very popular in East Texas!

[middleagecardinal]

The Bull:
... I still beleive that one player does not make a team no matter how good she is or can be....The team can still be "successful" without that one great player but (at least in this case) if Kirbyville did not have Holly last year, they would not have come close to winning state. The one great player does not make the team but it can put you over the top.

[The Bull]

No question about it if Kirbyville does not have Tnakersley last year they don't win state no arguement there. That's why I asked the Question about good coaches. Take away any teams best player and you cripple that teams ability to win. A prime example is Bridge City what happens if Meagan Godwin can't pitch or gets hurt, yes they will still be competive and very good but thier chances of winning go down some what. Kirbyville this year without Tankersley will have to rebuild and yes they will strtuggl, but every program in the state goes through periods of rebuilding. Hope everybody has a great season.

[middleagecardinal]

Hey Bull, it seems that you follow Kirbyville more than others. Did you happen to see the BC/Kirbyville game the year before last that was played in Kirbyville? Talk about a duel between Godwin and The Tank.

[The Bull]

Yes you are correct I do follow Kirbyville more than other teams because I am from that area. I live in Beaumont and officiate softball at both the high school and select team level. I have seen all the teams talked about on this board and no I did not see that game. I heard about it though. If my memory is correct Tnakersley came back from a injury and Godwin no-hit them and Bridge City won 1-0 or 2-0 not really sure let me know if I am wrong. Godwin has developed into a very good pitcher over the past couple of years and should take Bridge City far baring any type of injury.

[The Bull]

Yes you are correct I do follow Kirbyville more than other teams because I am from that area. I live in Beaumont and officiate softball at both the high school and select team level. I have seen all the teams talked about on this board and no I did not see that game. I heard about it though. If my memory is correct Tnakersley came back from a injury and Godwin no-hit them and Bridge City won 1-0 or 2-0 not really sure let me know if I am wrong. Godwin has developed into a very good pitcher over the past couple of years and should take Bridge City far baring any type of injury.

[middleagecardinal]

I can't remember the exact score either...3-0 or something like that. It was a no-hitter. Godwin did not really pitch around Holly but didn't give her anything to hit either. Holly walked the first time up then hit one about as far as you can hit it at their old field without hitting it out and our centerfielder chased it down. Good luck to all the teams this year. I'm chompin' at the bit.

[Old Cardinal]

To Phil: There are several "Select team programs" that I admire in Texas. Examples-Katy Cruisers, Texas Glory(DFW), Beaumont Blast, and Gulf Coast Breakers(Mid County)...Let's take the Blast; there or mostly 3 teams(sometimes two) at each age group and they move up the teams as they climb into older age groups. Let's look at the 14 & U teams, for example- One team is predominately 13 year olds and the other two are 13-14 year olds and a third mostly 14 year olds....These are the recognized Select team programs that folks do not question...I agree with MiddleageCard, in that last year there has been a poliferation of League All-Stars grouped into satellite Select teams. Most are very inferior but the one from Bridge City is doing quite well, because they played up 50% of the time for a number of years.... I don't think you have to worry about say- Texas Pepper, or a lot of the established programs getting watered down because all the kids want to make those premium teams. Phil, these teams are good-- in the last three years the Beaumont Blast Red, now one of the 3 (14&U teams) have come in second twice for the State Tournament Champion and 5th in the Nationals. Other teams in the program have also done very well. At the same time the corresponding local Gulf Coast Breakers have won the State Championship and also the National Championship. Mostly all of these will be dispersed at HS's in the Golden Triangle. It is interesting however; the premium teams skip the 16 & U alltogether and play in the 18 & U because they are starting for the HS teams by now and need to hone skills against the better pitchers in the Nation. This program development is just what the College Scouts apparently are looking for.

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[Comeaux]

I watched Sissy Lemons totally out-Coach him when Bridge City beat Kirbyville 12-1 in a preseason game last year.
??????????????
I guess the obvious question would be - why didn't she use this coaching ability to win state? Why couldn't the other coaches "totally out-Coach him" in the play-offs.

[Old Cardinal]

Sorry, but I feel Coach Lemons did fine, BC went 3 rounds and lost a close one game deal to a good Lukfin Hudson team...As for Kirbyville, I think Holly Tankersley's pitching Coach and Select team excellent training Coach should get credit since they Coached her 70+ games each year for a number of years in Select team ball. The same goes for Splendora, Melissa Collins was trained in the same program as Holly and her HS Coach was too the recipient of a polished athlete trained by excellent softball specialist. A HS Coach has little time to develop talent like that with the short season that they play. It's kind of the luck-of-the-draw to some extent, as to whether they have the extra specialty trained talent to propel them up the brackets.

[Dulce04]

Last year when Caldwell played Kirbyville in the playoffs, I'm pretty sure that Kirbyville didnt get any hits except for two errors made by the outfield. Caldwell got one hit the whole night and left a person on third twice but just couldn't get'em in. Kirbyville did very good at getting the job done.

[Comeaux]

Old Card,
Someone at the State tournement must have thought that the Wildcats had some talent besides Holy.
Conference 3A
Pitcher *Holly Tankersley Sr. Kirbyville
Catcher Stacy Jordan So. Kirbyville
1B Macie Myers Jr. Kirbyville
2B Amanda Barker Sr. Wharton
3B Kayce Zielinski So. Kennedale
SS Ashley Goodwin Sr. Kirbyville
OF Tatum Woods Jr. Kirbyville
OF Marquita Adams Sr. Lindale
OF Lindsay Logos Sr. Kennedale
Utility Jamie Thompson Jr. Kennedale

[Bell_06]

Comeaux:
Old Card,
Someone at the State tournement must have thought that the Wildcats had some talent besides Holy.
Conference 3A
Pitcher *Holly Tankersley Sr. Kirbyville
Catcher Stacy Jordan So. Kirbyville
1B Macie Myers Jr. Kirbyville
2B Amanda Barker Sr. Wharton
3B Kayce Zielinski So. Kennedale
SS Ashley Goodwin Sr. Kirbyville
OF Tatum Woods Jr. Kirbyville
OF Marquita Adams Sr. Lindale
OF Lindsay Logos Sr. Kennedale
Utility Jamie Thompson Jr. KennedaleI have to agree, sounds to me like Holly had quite a bit of backing to get the job done. A point that I think is being overlooked is the fact that even if a player has behind the scene coaching and instruction, a high school coach has to have the ability to make his/her team flow. One person can not make a team, and certainly can not win a state championship, if that were the case wouldn't Kat Osterman's high school have racked up 4 years worth of titles? High school coaches face a much tougher job then tournament ball coaches do at times. Because most schools (at least ours) does not have a cut policy, you have on your roster girls who are not going to ever be 18U Gold qualified. The girls are there for much different reasons, some because they eat, live and breath ball, some because it's the thing to do in high school. Others are there for what I consider to be the right reason in high school.. Because it's their school and they want be involved. Now a coach has to accept and take all those extremely different girls and make them into a 'team'

As far as one coach out-coaching another. I've been around the sport long enough to know that when a team has a off day it can be a realllll off day, borderlining down-right-ugly. A 12-1 victory is one team shutting down. I figure the Kirbyville coach had to be doing something right you sure don't win state unless you have worked your tail off to get the team to blend and then achieve.

[middleagecardinal]

Seems that this whole Kirbyville thing is a bit misunderstood. I think that everyone can agree that without Holly, it does not matter how good Gore is, the team will not be good enough to win state. They don't have the pitching without her. Don't take it personal...it's the same for most schools around here. If you take their best player out, odds are they're not the same team.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: middleagecardinal ]</small>

[Phil C]

For Old. Great information. Do they have any of those one week summer softball camps out there open to all areas in the state? It looks like a lot of girls around the state could benefit by the coaching expertise there.

[The Bull]

I agree with middleagecardinal. This question was Who do you think ar good coaches in Southeast Texas. I have my opinon just wanted to know about everybody else's. Nobody should disagree with the fact that without Tankersley Kirbyville doeswn't win a state title. Bell 06 you make some great point.. This thread was never meant to be about Kirbyville softball but about coaches and thier ability to coach. It's easy to coach win with talented players. The mark of a good coach in my opinon is what he/she does with those players who are not talented. Good coaching is not always measured by wins and loses.

[Old Cardinal]

Just a few comments:::To Comeaux, If Holly had not knocked a softball- Splendora would have won the State Championship and they would have been the one placing 7 girls on the State Tournament team-that is just traditional....To Dulce 04: You Caldwell girls almost pulled the big upset over Kirbyville-With Brandy C. doing so well on the 16 & U pitching Select team circuit and the big bunch of returning Seniors you are a very legitimate candidate for the Crown. Coach Wendy Weiss gets 100% from her teams....You know, I really have no strong opinion on Mr. Gore either way. In that ballgame mentioned, it just looked like quick-thinking Coaching was his demise in that one game...to Phil: The Blast Select program brings in great training events. Example: They brought in Krista Williams(Olympic Gold Metalist Pitcher); Mike Epstine(batting Coach for the Padres); Shortstop for the Olympic Gold Metalist team. They make these programs available for all the boys and girls of the area. Mike Epstine's ergonomically and bio-mechanically correct training is superb!....Phil, their is a top-notch training facility in Orange, Texas called "The Zone" run by a proven great Coach, Sam Moore, that is the wave of the future. I look for Sam to franchise this excellent training for baseball and softball. Many of the players in the area are reaping the benefits of "The Zone" format of training and the training of excellent Select team Coaches...Example: the Golden Triangle select team of renown was the National Champion for Babe Ruth baseball...Colin Delome(Buna) and Allan Harrington(Mid County) are HS Senior players(from that National Championship team), this year and have already signed with Lamar University. Remember, Lamar whipped the U. of Texas and National Champ-Rice U. several times last year with an almost all Golden Triangle roster! They are going to be a National contender for years to come with the local boys.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Old Cardinal ]</small>

[hsfan]

coach hall will be in first year at bh and is a very good coach.he has coached some select teams in bb and sb the last few years.he will get alot out of this team.

[Bell_06]

hsfan:
coach hall will be in first year at bh and is a very good coach.he has coached some select teams in bb and sb the last few years.he will get alot out of this team.Is that Barbers Hill?

[Old Cardinal]

Yes, That is Barbers Hill. They have a pretty good momentum going and this should enhance their chances.

[Bell_06]

What happened to the female coach that BH had last year? Now that coach managed to out-coach herself last year :)

<small>[ January 27, 2004, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Bell_06 ]</small>