(NF!) Global Warming or Natural Warming?

[GreenMonster]

I was just reading a story on my Yahoo! homepage about global warming and the new alarming rate that the artic ice pack is melting at. The story was written as if the entire cause of the melting ice pack is due to mankind. I have to disagree. When Greenland was founded and settled by Leif Erikson it truly was green in the spring and summer. There is archaeological proof that the Vikings that settled in the original settlements along Greenland's coast ate a well rounded diet that included sheep or muton, fish, and vegetables in the early years. As time went on the Viking diet gradually moved away from ground based foods and they became more and more dependent on the sea for their food. This continued over the course of a 100-150 year period until the Viking settlements were abandoned due to their lack of ability to feed themselves. Greenland went from being a truly green land to being an ice covered nearly uninhabitable place in less than 150 years. If this is the case, and there is proof to back it up, what makes scientists of today blame the rapid melting on man? Part of the reason the Vikings left was because the fishing became tougher and tougher. Upon arrival the cod were plentiful off the Greenland coast but near the end the Vikings were having to travel further and further out to sea to find their prey. This is significant why? This is significant because cod are found in water of a certain temperature range. This hints that the waters surrounding Greenland had once been warmer than they are today. Ocean temperatures have a great effect on weather. Warmer water temps make for warmer land temps. Colder water temps make for colder land temps, etc. This tells me that quite simply the waters off of Greenland's coast must be in a warming trend that is causing the ice to melt, it has little or nothing to do with manmade global warming. Another clue that I feel is important is the hurricane specialists. The hurricane specialists have pointed out that due to warmer waters off the coast of Africa that we will see bigger and stronger hurricanes for the next 15-25 years. They claim this to be a natural warming cycle. They also say that there is an ocean current that circles from the African coast around to the Carribean up the Atlantic seaboard across the North Atlantic and finally down the European coast. It is named the Gulf Stream. Considering that there are warmer waters off the African coast I feel it is safe to say that those waters will be warmer when they reache the Carribean where they will warm further before heading north. Therefore the waters that are reaching the North Atlantic are warmer as well. I don't know about yu guys but I have no formal training I just have common sense and the ability to reason. To me the cause of the melting of the Greenland ice pack has more to do with ocean temps than it has to do with manmade global warming. I think these scientist that are crying foul are being funded specifically to determine the effects of manmade toxins on global warming and they simply want to keep getting paid. They have some data that they can spin to look good in their defense and they are going to milk it for all it's worth. I say that it's hogwash. Tell me what you think.

[big daddy russ]

We studied this in one of my geology classes. We're actually still in the last ice age, still coming out of it. Sure, there are spikes in weather pattern (like from 900 AD through 1000 AD when the Earth was considerably warmer or the 1800's when it was considerably colder), but on the whole we were warming up long before the first car was built.

The way the cycle's going, we should get back into Triassic-like climates (no polar ice caps, Maine is warm during the winter) in a couple million years.

[STANG RED]

It just all depends on which (so called) professionals you listen to. But I think the ones that claim it is just a natural cycle in earths history, have proven their point a little better of late.
I think its all just speculation anyway. There is really no way they can know for sure, imo.

[Manck]

I'm somewhere in the middle.

There's no doubt in my mind that a large part of this is natural, but there's no way that all of the chemicals we throw into the atmosphere daily can help it any. So, IMO, neither one?

[PPHSfan]

The reason it is melting is because sometimes the temperature gets above 32 degrees.

[District303aPastPlayer]

i thought greenland was full of ice... and iceland was full of greens?

[Pudlugger]

I read an interesting artical about how the solar system moves aroung the center of the Galaxy (the Milky Way). The solar system, like all the stars and planets in the galaxy, orbits the center, a black hole. However the orbit is not flat, but sinusoidal. The rise and fall from the top and bottom of this wavelike pattern takes about 10,000 years. When the solar system is between these extremes it is more or less in line with the mass of other stars in the galaxy. Here the coasmic radiation (energy) from the galaxy is maximized. At the extremes it is minimized as it is above or below this high energy belt. The scientists' hypothesis was that this may coincide with climate changes on earth. Interesting theory.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
The reason it is melting is because sometimes the temperature gets above 32 degrees.

I think you might be on to something! :thumbsup:

[Macarthur]

There's no question that the earth cycles just like everything else.

However, the problem is that manmade gasses are speeding the process. Can you guys forward me some of your sources that claim it's not manmade. Pretty much everything I have read lately pretty much puts to rest the question of whether it's even "debatable".

I'm also curious how many of you that don't buy into this live in metropolitian areas. I used to work on the 52nd floor of a building in downtown Dallas. It's quite scary to see what we are breathing every day. I never had allergies or sinus problems until I moved to the plex. All of my children have allergy and sinus issues and the occational respiratory distress.

[BHBrave08]

Basically it is Natural warming on a Globe.

I.E. Global Warming.:D

[Paratrooper]

Originally posted by Macarthur
There's no question that the earth cycles just like everything else.

However, the problem is that manmade gasses are speeding the process. Can you guys forward me some of your sources that claim it's not manmade. Pretty much everything I have read lately pretty much puts to rest the question of whether it's even "debatable".

I'm also curious how many of you that don't buy into this live in metropolitian areas. I used to work on the 52nd floor of a building in downtown Dallas. It's quite scary to see what we are breathing every day. I never had allergies or sinus problems until I moved to the plex. All of my children have allergy and sinus issues and the occational respiratory distress.

I know the government at one time paid an incredible amount of taxpayer dollars to figure out how much gas was pooted out by a cow and how much methane that produces in our atmosphere. Some say that's why we had an iceage because the dinosaurs were doing it.
Well, I think I'll have a steak tonight to cut down on global warming.:D

[sinton66]

The earth will still be here long after all of us aren't even a memory anymore. She'll shake us and everything we've ever done off like a bad habit.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by Macarthur
There's no question that the earth cycles just like everything else.

However, the problem is that manmade gasses are speeding the process. Can you guys forward me some of your sources that claim it's not manmade. Pretty much everything I have read lately pretty much puts to rest the question of whether it's even "debatable".

I'm also curious how many of you that don't buy into this live in metropolitian areas. I used to work on the 52nd floor of a building in downtown Dallas. It's quite scary to see what we are breathing every day. I never had allergies or sinus problems until I moved to the plex. All of my children have allergy and sinus issues and the occational respiratory distress.
.
How can manmade gasses speed the warming process when there is no possible way for that gas to get up into the upper atmosphere where it counts? Now, many major cities have problems with daytime(and night time) heating as the roads and pavement tends to keep that heat and make the close proximity hotter than normal. From this thunderstorms can actually form from this. The vast majority of scientists don't agree with us contributing to "global warming" and many of them think we are actually cooling down. But since all this is against political correctness, it is never reported. I'll try to find some info for you to help you come to grips with this.
.
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Paratrooper, make that a 1" ribeye just to pi$$ off PETA, too.:D

[BigTex]

Talk about bandwagon science.... Did any of you go to college when I did (in the early '70s)? All they preached at the time was how fast the earth was cooling and that we were headed to another mini-ice age. Now 30 years later it is warming at an average of 1 degree in the past century so it must be global warming.... And with all of the ice melting in the Arctic, we have the ice shelf in Antarctica actually growing. I read an article on the internet last week about how some glaciers were growing, but it was due to global warming. Whatever happens is attributed to global warming. I fear we are guilty of making long term projections based on short term events. Besides, a pretty good sized volcano will put more greenhouse gases in the atmosphere than man will in 20 years. Put me in the official skeptic category.:thinking:

[JasperDog94]

I remember hearing about a polutant in the air that was causing global warming. (according to science at the time) I can't remember off the top of my head what it was, but it was later found that one volcanic eruption release 100 times as much polutant in one eruption as automobiles did in an entire year.

So, scientists go back to the drawing board and think of a new reason why we are causing global warming.:crazy1:

[slpybear the bullfan]

The boys from Harvard back in 2003 did a big study examining all of the credible evidence... 200+ sources reviewed and Harvard's conclusion... 20th century wasn't the warmest or most extreme. The Medievel Warm Period was warmer, (followed by the little ice age).

http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/press/pr0310.html

Good one from NASA about OZONE Hole shrinking...

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/ozone_resource_page.html

Just a couple of links I remember.

My $.02? We undoubtedly affect our climate to some extent. But astrophysics and its resulting cyclical impacts on our weather patterns and climates are much, much of a bigger factor. Could mankind really mess things up? Sure. But I think we are becoming "greener" in our worldviews at a pretty good pace.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
I remember hearing about a polutant in the air that was causing global warming. (according to science at the time) I can't remember off the top of my head what it was, but it was later found that one volcanic eruption release 100 times as much polutant in one eruption as automobiles did in an entire year.

So, scientists go back to the drawing board and think of a new reason why we are causing global warming.:crazy1:
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Volcanos do effect the globe more than anything us little ants can. I agree. I've read about that since the 80's. But will you ever hear that on the 5:30 national news? Never... :(

[sinton66]

it's all about the money, folks. The government won't issue scientific study grants if there isn't a problem to study. Oh wait, they did fund that Californicate study of homosexuality in seagulls.
If it's a non issue, it must be studied by science. The government grants funding for a ten year study. At the end of the ten years, the "scientists" doing the study publish a report saying the results are inconclusive and the government grants funding for an additional ten years. What a racket.

[JasperDog94]

People that say the debate is over (I'm trying not to get political) just use that as a ploy to convince people that they are correct. "Well if the debate is over I guess this guy knows what he's talking about.":dispntd:

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by SintonFan
.
Volcanos do effect the globe more than anything us little ants can. I agree. I've read about that since the 80's. But will you ever hear that on the 5:30 national news? Never... :( So I'm not the only one that remembers this? Cool. Then I'm not the one that's :crazy1: .

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by sinton66
it's all about the money, folks. The government won't issue scientific study grants if there isn't a problem to study. Oh wait, they did fund that Californicate study of homosexuality in seagulls.
If it's a non issue, it must be studied by science. The government grants funding for a ten year study. At the end of the ten years, the "scientists" doing the study publish a report saying the results are inconclusive and the government grants funding for an additional ten years. What a racket. Cool. I need to get in on this action. Do you think the government would fund a study on modern worship trends and the effects it has on the local community?

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
So I'm not the only one that remembers this? Cool. Then I'm not the one that's :crazy1: .
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I first read about in an Omni magazine I'd say around '86 or '87?:)
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And to back up BigTex too. When you went to college back then, I'd bet the higher education wasn't so politically motivated as it is now. I say your professors then knew more of what was actually happening with less info versus what a select number with loud mouths now do.:cool: :clap:

[sinton66]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Cool. I need to get in on this action. Do you think the government would fund a study on modern worship trends and the effects it has on the local community?

Oh NO! seperation of church and state, remember? And besides, it can't be anything that's actual beneficial to anyone.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by sinton66
Oh NO! seperation of church and state, remember? And besides, it can't be anything that's actual beneficial to anyone. Figures...:bigcry:

[sinton66]

Now if you wanted to study the long term radiation accumulation effect generated by thousands of RF generating Radio and TV stations all over the world, you might have something. Hmmmmmm, one by product of radiation is heat, I wonder????

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by sinton66
Now if you wanted to study the long term radiation accumulation effect generated by thousands of RF generating Radio and TV stations all over the world, you might have something. Hmmmmmm, one by product of radiation is heat, I wonder????
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I would help you apply for the grant.;) :D

[3ABirdMan]

Originally posted by BigTex
Talk about bandwagon science.............And with all of the ice melting in the Arctic, we have the ice shelf in Antarctica actually growing..................

:doh: DUH!

:nerd: HELLO?

Everyone knows heat RISES (and goes to the NORTH POLE to melt the ice) while COLD sinks (and goes to the SOUTH POLE to MAKE the ice). :rolleyes:

[mustang04]

in my opinion...there is NO WAY to know what weather is mankind's fault....theres now way to tell what was going to happen anyways and what is caused by our actions...nobody here created the earth and KNOWS EXACTLY what is going to happen....i just believe whatever happens, happens and we might help influence it a little bit....or maybe not...WHO KNOWS!!

[TheDOCTORdre]

Originally posted by mustang04
i just believe whatever happens, happens and we might help influence it a little bit....or maybe not...WHO KNOWS!!
I know but I have to keep some things secret so I'm not tellin

[mustang04]

Originally posted by TheDOCTORdre
I know but I have to keep some things secret so I'm not tellin

hahaha:clap:

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by 3ABirdMan
:doh: DUH!

:nerd: HELLO?

Everyone knows heat RISES (and goes to the NORTH POLE to melt the ice) while COLD sinks (and goes to the SOUTH POLE to MAKE the ice). :rolleyes:
.
ROFL!:clap: :clap: :thinking:

[11TARPON]

The scientist each contradict each other. During summer they say that we are experiencing some of the hottest temps ever, and that all the ice caps will melt. Then is winter they say that because of the green house effect we are causing that less sunshine is reaching the earth and that's the reason we are experiencing the coldest temp ever on earth. Last year the scientist had to revise their perdictions on the number of hurricanes upward and this year they had to revise their perdictions downward. Seems like they are just guessing to me or just trying to sell a book.

[SintonFan]

Originally posted by 11TARPON
The scientist each contradict each other. During summer they say that we are experiencing some of the hottest temps ever, and that all the ice caps will melt. Then is winter they say that because of the green house effect we are causing that less sunshine is reaching the earth and that's the reason we are experiencing the coldest temp ever on earth. Last year the scientist had to revise their perdictions on the number of hurricanes upward and this year they had to revise their perdictions downward. Seems like they are just guessing to me or just trying to sell a book.
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I think many of them are hunting manbearpigs!:eek: :( :weeping:

[BTEXDAD]

Originally posted by 11TARPON
The scientist each contradict each other. During summer they say that we are experiencing some of the hottest temps ever, and that all the ice caps will melt. Then is winter they say that because of the green house effect we are causing that less sunshine is reaching the earth and that's the reason we are experiencing the coldest temp ever on earth. Last year the scientist had to revise their perdictions on the number of hurricanes upward and this year they had to revise their perdictions downward. Seems like they are just guessing to me or just trying to sell a book.

Exactly, Tarpon.
Scientists just guess about many things. If they happen to get lucky, they right a book, go on Today Show with Matt Liar, and make the paid speech circuit with various groups.
If they are wrong, no big deal, since nobody calls them a dumbass or asks if they have any other brilliant predictions, they simply make other predictions at their leisure.
Concept of global warming vs green house effect is perfect example of lack of knowledge on global environment. The way those two things are explained, there's no way you can have both.

[spiveyrat]

I've always wanted to know how these "experts" know whether we were really warmer or not. The thermometer has only been around for around 350 years ( http://www.brannan.co.uk/thermometers/invention.html ). Records of temperature have not been kept for 350 years. But just for the sake of argument, let's say they have. According to Wikipedia, the age of the earth is around 4.5 Billion years ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_history ).

350/4,500,000,000 = .000007%

So, if records of temperature have been kept for 350 years (which, they haven't), then we only have enough data for .000007% of the lifespan of the earth. Hardly enough to even detect a trend.

[sinton66]

Originally posted by spiveyrat
I've always wanted to know how these "experts" know whether we were really warmer or not. The thermometer has only been around for around 350 years ( http://www.brannan.co.uk/thermometers/invention.html ). Records of temperature have not been kept for 350 years. But just for the sake of argument, let's say they have. According to Wikipedia, the age of the earth is around 4.5 Billion years ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_history ).

350/4,500,000,000 = .000007%

So, if records of temperature have been kept for 350 years (which, they haven't), then we only have enough data for .000007% of the lifespan of the earth. Hardly enough to even detect a trend.

Absolutely correct, but you and I have lived long enough to know that logic doesn't have much to do with "science" and what they can fool our government into paying for. Many years ago, all the "experts" were convinced the earth was flat and was in the center of the galaxy with everything in the heavens revolving about it. Science is nothing more than the latest "theory".

[Macarthur]

Originally posted by spiveyrat
I've always wanted to know how these "experts" know whether we were really warmer or not. The thermometer has only been around for around 350 years ( http://www.brannan.co.uk/thermometers/invention.html ). Records of temperature have not been kept for 350 years. But just for the sake of argument, let's say they have. According to Wikipedia, the age of the earth is around 4.5 Billion years ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_history ).

350/4,500,000,000 = .000007%

So, if records of temperature have been kept for 350 years (which, they haven't), then we only have enough data for .000007% of the lifespan of the earth. Hardly enough to even detect a trend.

There a couple of ways they do this. The can study the layers of ice in antartica to see the layers of "items" trapped in the ice (gasses, etc.) and have a pretty good idea of the temperature during that period. They do the same thing geologically with rocks & sediment.

These are some of the organizations that support "significant human influence on global climate":

-Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

-The National Science Academies of the G8 nations, plus Brazil, China and India.

-Committee on the Science of Climate Change of the National Research Council .

-The American Meteorological Society (AMS)

-The Federal Climate Change Science Program commissioned by the Bush administration in 2002 released the first of 21 assessments which concluded that there is clear evidence of human influences on the climate system (due to changes in greenhouse gases, aerosols, and stratospheric ozone). The study said that observed patterns of change over the past 50 years cannot be explained by natural processes alone, though it did not state what percentage of climate change may be anthropogenic in nature.

-American Geophysical Union

This is a statement by the American Meteorological Society:

There is now clear evidence that the mean annual temperature at the Earth's surface, averaged over the entire globe, has been increasing in the past 200 years. There is also clear evidence that the abundance of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has increased over the same period. In the past decade, significant progress has been made toward a better understanding of the climate system and toward improved projections of long-term climate change... The report by the IPCC stated that the global mean temperature is projected to increase by 1.4 °C–5.8 °C in the next 100 years... Human activities have become a major source of environmental change. Of great urgency are the climate consequences of the increasing atmospheric abundance of greenhouse gases... Because greenhouse gases continue to increase, we are, in effect, conducting a global climate experiment, neither planned nor controlled, the results of which may present unprecedented challenges to our wisdom and foresight as well as have significant impacts on our natural and societal systems. It is a long-term problem that requires a long-term perspective. Important decisions confront current and future national and world leaders.


Also, the statement about Volcanos emitting more gas than humans is irrelevant. We can't control volcanos.

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by Macarthur
Also, the statement about Volcanos emitting more gas than humans is irrelevant. We can't control volcanos. My point exactly. These same people were claiming that we were the ones killing the ozone with our cars. Later it comes out that volcanos produce 100 times what autos do, meaning that autos have less than a 1% impact on the ozone. But did the facts stop people from making the same claims? Obviously not.:crazy: :crazy1:

[RMAC]

I will just go ahead and say that I really don't care b/c unless something drastic happens, I won't be around to watch the ice caps melt and flood up into north Texas. But I can see where ya'll are coming from.

[mustang04]

Originally posted by RMAC
I will just go ahead and say that I really don't care b/c unless something drastic happens, I won't be around to watch the ice caps melt and flood up into north Texas. But I can see where ya'll are coming from.

haha...i like how u think!!!

i mean...in 5 billion years, the earth's core will pretty much quit being heated...and around the same time (astronomically of course) the sun will be increasing size to become a Red Giant and swallowing mercury, possibly venus, and ending all life on earth anyways......

[JasperDog94]

I'm sure somehow that will be mankinds fault too.:rolleyes: :D :D

[mustang04]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
I'm sure somehow that will be mankinds fault too.:rolleyes: :D :D

haha..."we didnt do our job to prevent the sun from expanding" haha

[JasperDog94]

Originally posted by mustang04
haha..."we didnt do our job to prevent the sun from expanding" haha Then the Dems and Repubs will continue to blame each other.

[spiveyrat]

I heard something else the the other day that is simple and would explain everything... the sun is getting hotter. But we're probably responsible for that too.

Here's where I saw it... (from the nuze notes on June 26, 2006 on Boortz.com)
=============================================
Since the media is relentlessly harping on the global warming theme, we're going to go ahead at the Boortz show and do our homework. We'll read as much as the available material as we can get our hands on, and will make sure that we get information from scientists who actually work in this field and who do not work for the government. Those of you who listen to the show know that I'm skeptical of this whole global warming frenzy .. but I'll try to keep an open mind here.

In the meantime ... here are just a few little factoids for you to play around with, factoids that cause me to doubt that whatever global warming we're experiencing can be blamed on the actions of man.

1. The sun is hotter. Period. This fact cannot be denied. The sun is going through a lengthy period of increased activity that causes it to radiate more heat into space. Is it really that hard to believe that a hotter sun would lead to a hotter earth?
2. Our polar ice caps are melting? Sure looks like it. But .. the polar ice caps on Mars are melting also. So, are we to believe that this is caused by man on the Earth but by the hotter sun on Mars?
3. And while we're talking about ice caps melting, it's worth noting that the ice pack in the heart of Antarctica is actually getting thicker!
4. Scientific data clearly shows that the Earth has undergone warming and cooling cycles for millions of years. Why, all of a sudden, does a warming cycle just have to be caused by the actions of man?
5. Scientists who work on government grants are more inclined to blame global warming on the actions of man than are scientists who do not depend on continued government (political) funding.
6. And just how much warmer has our atmosphere become in the last 100 years? One degree. That's it. Just one degree.
7. Many of the people who are so involved in promoting the man-made global warming theme are people who are also involved in anti-capitalist movements. So, what is their true goal? Do they want to solve the global warming problem, or do they want to cripple the capitalist systems they so hate?
8. The U.S. Senate snubbed the Kyoto treaty by a vote of 99-0. This was during the Clinton years! What did these 99 senators know about the Kyoto Accords that we don't know?
9. Speaking of the Kyoto accords, they would severely impact the U.S. economy, but would leave China absolutely alone! China has one of the fastest growing economies in the world. Since a huge number of Kyoto proponents can also be called anti-American, could this cause you to wonder what the true goal of Kyoto is?
10. And just how many years ago was it that these very same scientists were warning us about the earth getting cooler?

[mustang04]

Originally posted by JasperDog94
Then the Dems and Repubs will continue to blame each other.

but then we will come to the conclusion that homosexuality led to it just like the fall of the Roman empire haha