X's and O's

[Bullaholic]

How many of you enjoy talking football X's and O's and deeper discussions of offensive and defensive formations at the coaching level? I'm not a coach, and I'll take the "backseat" to most, but I do enjoy discussing some of the "finer" points of the game from time to time. Just wondering.

To start---somebody want to elaborate on terms such as--
"2 technique" or "3 technique"?

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
How many of you enjoy talking football X's and O's and deeper discussions of offensive and defensive formations at the coaching level? I'm not a coach, and I'll take the "backseat" to most, but I do enjoy discussing some of the "finer" points of the game from time to time. Just wondering.

To start---somebody want to elaborate on terms such as--
"2 technique" or "3 technique"?

the two is lined up straight up on a guard, the 3 is shaded to the outside eye. In most 4-3 defenses with your 4 down lineman, you will have a 7,5,3,2/3... the 7 will be lined up on your TE, your 5 is shaded outside eye of the tight end.... Your 5 will be on the outside of the weak side tackle, then your 3 and 2/3 will be on your guards... i believe...

[kaorder1999]

http://www.fbforyouth.com/images/gaps02.gif

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
the two is lined up straight up on a guard, the 3 is shaded to the outside eye. In most 4-3 defenses with your 4 down lineman, you will have a 7,5,3,2/3... the 7 will be lined up on your TE, your 5 is shaded outside eye of the tight end.... Your 5 will be on the outside of the weak side tackle, then your 3 and 2/3 will be on your guards... i believe...

Very good, D303. So how would it sound for the D-Co-Ord to communicate a particular D to the team? I know many use hand sigs.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
http://www.fbforyouth.com/images/gaps02.gif

Thanks ka---even better.

[kaorder1999]

some defenses use numbers to call their defense.....44 cover 1. In a 3-4 style defense that would put the two ends in 4's and the tackle in a nose shade, probably strong nose shade.

in a split defense or 4-3 something like 23 cover 1 could be called. That would put the strong tackle in a 2 and the weak tackle in a 3. Cover 1 would be the secondary call.

SOme defenses use numbers but they DO NOT align with techniques.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by kaorder1999
some defenses use numbers to call their defense.....44 cover 1. In a 3-4 style defense that would put the two ends in 4's and the tackle in a nose shade, probably strong nose shade.

in a split defense or 4-3 something like 23 cover 1 could be called. That would put the strong tackle in a 2 and the weak tackle in a 3. Cover 1 would be the secondary call.

SOme defenses use numbers but they DO NOT align with techniques.

In other words the numbers indicate the "slant" or rushing "lane"(inside or outside) or a "head-to-head" position.

[Odis]

Thank you, Jesus!!!

Some real football talk!!!

I love it!!!

Beats Hale outta "most stolen car" blah, blah, blah!!!

[g$$]

Trivia: Bum Phillips is widely given credit for developing the defensive numbering system when he was a hs coach & later with Bear Bryant at A&M in the '50s (source: Bear's book). Now, as things have evolved different coaches in different schemes have tailored their own # system. For example, even #s were originally used to designate head up (inside eye) & odd #s were shaded in the gaps. And a "0" was added to designate linebackers technique (20, 40, 60, etc.). Now you see i's added to mean inside shade & stuff like that (2i, 4i, etc.). Point is the drawing above will not be exactly the same for every coach, but it is widely accepted. We played the 6 head up on the TE, & 7 inside shade of him. 5 was outside the tackle. The reason for the drawing above is it is easier to teach (1-2-3, then 4-5-6, & 7-8-9). Pretty cut & dried that way. Bottom line is whatever works for you & making sure everyone is on the same page. Call it whatever you want, just get to the ball & make plays.

[kaorder1999]

Originally posted by g$$
Trivia: Bum Phillips is widely given credit for developing the defensive numbering system when he was a hs coach & later with Bear Bryant at A&M in the '50s (source: Bear's book). Now, as things have evolved different coaches in different schemes have tailored their own # system. For example, even #s were originally used to designate head up (inside eye) & odd #s were shaded in the gaps. And a "0" was added to designate linebackers technique (20, 40, 60, etc.). Now you see i's added to mean inside shade & stuff like that (2i, 4i, etc.). Point is the drawing above will not be exactly the same for every coach, but it is widely accepted. We played the 6 head up on the TE, & 7 inside shade of him. Bottom line is whatever works for you & making sure everyone is on the same page.

correct. I worked in a defensive system where a 5 was outside shade of tackle. In some defenses a 5 is a head up technique. Defensive coaches can change their defense to what suits them. I worked with a coach that doesn't call his gaps by letters but does by numbers. Gaps stront were 2, 4, 6, 8 gaps. Gaps weak were 1, 3, 5 ,7 gaps.

[Bullaholic]

How much are HS defensive players taught to read "keys" from the offense?

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
How much are HS defensive players taught to read "keys" from the offense?

are you talkign about like keying off the first back, going away, key to second back, if he steps up, fill the gap, backside LB scrape around?

or are you talking about keying the Recievers like Cover 1, Cover 2, Cover 3, Combo 1, 2, 3, Man up or tight?

[Sweetwater Red]

What type of offense was it again that Iowa Park runs? When
they snap the ball the entire offensive line pulls on a sweep or veer.

[g$$]

A heck of a lot if you're any good. Generally speaking, linebackers read the offensive linemen because they will tell you where the ball is going. Different kinds of blocks & footwork tell you what to do. The defensive linemen pretty much have a desired path on the snap of the ball. Secondary coverages are called in the huddle & adjusted as needed based on the formation. That is a basic overview, but reading keys is definitely part of being a good football player & knowing where to be based on what you see happening in front of you. Now, special kids who play poor technique can get away with more (although at some point it catches up with them too). That is why as a coach, you just hope to prepare & put players in a position to succeed once the ball is snapped.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
are you talkign about like keying off the first back, going away, key to second back, if he steps up, fill the gap, backside LB scrape around?

or are you talking about keying the Recievers like Cover 1, Cover 2, Cover 3, Combo 1, 2, 3, Man up or tight?

Probably reading the backs. I have heard that HS coaches just teach their defensive players to just make basic "reads" on the offense. I wonder if they allow really talented kids to go further than that up to the level used in college. For example, do coaches trust a talented kid playing LB, who can really "read" keys well, to blitz on his own?

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Probably reading the backs. I have heard that HS coaches just teach their defensive players to just make basic "reads" on the offense. I wonder if they allow really talented kids to go further than that up to the level used in college. For example, do coaches trust a talented kid playing LB, who can really "read" keys well, to blitz on his own?

Back when i was in HS, Jason Brittain was a Jr when i was a senior. He would be given the signal for the defense, but would change it sometimes. That same year, Emil Alaniz was the starting safety and he called all the coverages... Brittain went on to play at ASU and was a pretty good athlete... he had a good head for football and was able to read better than most other ugys on the field

[Bullaholic]

Why is it that HS defensive backs seem to be coached to play the "man" on a pass route and never look back and play the "ball"? I've seen some get hit in the back of the helmet by the ball. Seems to me a good DB has as much chance to catch the ball as the receiver ans should "go" for it. Maybe I've been watching the pros too much.

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Why is it that HS defensive backs seem to be coached to play the "man" on a pass route and never look back and play the "ball"? I've seen some get hit in the back of the helmet by the ball. Seems to me a good DB has as much chance to catch the ball as the receiver ans should "go" for it. Maybe I've been watching the pros too much.

our DBs were taught to turn and run when they are running down the field... and look at their eyes.. when they start to get big, turn back.... the ball will be right there

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
our DBs were taught to turn and run when they are running down the field... and look at their eyes.. when they start to get big, turn back.... the ball will be right there

I understand the logic of that technique---you probably won't get "beat" by your man, but it seems extremely hard for the DB to turn and judge the flight of the ball adequately to intercept or time his jump or hand motions to defend in time. Seems like they could go back and forth from "man" to "ball". Again, maybe only the really good DB's could handle that, so coaches opt for the safest technique.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
What type of offense was it again that Iowa Park runs? When
they snap the ball the entire offensive line pulls on a sweep or veer.

Red, I don't know if IP is still running the veer or not. I know they ran it, or a variation, very, very well for years. Maybe GM or one of the IP fans can answer better with more detail.

[Bullaholic]

What is the most widely used defensive scheme used in HS football? 4-3-4, 4-2-5, 3-4-4 or some other variation? What are the advantages?

Let's keep the "clinic" open---I really appreciate all of the great input by all of you.

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
What is the most widely used defensive scheme used in HS football? 4-3-4, 4-2-5, 3-4-4 or some other variation?

we used a variation of the 4-4.... 2 ILBs, 2 OLBs, and 4 down lineman...

[raider red 2000]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
we used a variation of the 4-4.... 2 ILBs, 2 OLBs, and 4 down lineman...

i would say that most teams are probably running a variation of the 4-2-5. it is easy to make it a 4-4-3 for running teams and stay a 4-2 5 for the spread type teams.

many DC's are having to get smarter in disguising coverages though. it seems like the spread teams are sometimes able to call plays once they see what the D is doing.

[Bullaholic]

An Offense question. Do most of the coaches still use a play calling system based on a "hole" number and a back or receiver number? Are the blocking schemes called separately or do are they "automatic" with the play no.? How about the pass routes?

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
An Offense question. Do most of the coaches still use a play calling system based on a "hole" number and a back or receiver number? Are the blocking schemes called separately or do are they "automatic" with the play no.? How about the pass routes?

they call numbered plays still... but each play has its own set of blocking instructions...

[raider red 2000]

when i played we had a 3 number system.

first told what series
2nd back
3rd hole

for example.

432- meant 400 series- trap sweep boot.
3- meant FB
2- hole

we knew it was a full back trap.

this was a wing T offense.

i have seen others that use just 2 numbers (back and hole) and then tagged the blocking scheme (lead, power, blast, trap, veer, reverse)

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by raider red 2000
when i played we had a 3 number system.

first told what series
2nd back
3rd hole

for example.

432- meant 400 series- trap sweep boot.
3- meant FB
2- hole

we knew it was a full back trap.

this was a wing T offense.

i have seen others that use just 2 numbers (back and hole) and then tagged the blocking scheme (lead, power, blast, trap, veer, reverse)

welcome to the Beeville offense...

[raider red 2000]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
welcome to the Beeville offense...

:)

[slpybear the bullfan]

4-2-5 for the longest time...

I think that CB is the hardest position for a HS athelte to play... especially in the era of the spread O.

slpybear... (an old 3 technique).

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by slpybear the bullfan
4-2-5 for the longest time...

I think that CB is the hardest position for a HS athelte to play... especially in the era of the spread O.

slpybear... (an old 3 technique).

I think you're playing that 30+ technique now, Sply, just like my son and a bunch of the others I know well....:D

[Bullaholic]

Against the spread offense, do you think it is more effective to load up the line and "speed rush" using your fastest players or play "soft" and defend the pass?

[sinton66]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Probably reading the backs. I have heard that HS coaches just teach their defensive players to just make basic "reads" on the offense. I wonder if they allow really talented kids to go further than that up to the level used in college. For example, do coaches trust a talented kid playing LB, who can really "read" keys well, to blitz on his own?

Over the last fifteen years, Sinton has had a number of linebackers that were able to read well enough to be given the "go" when you want. Rob Thomas was a monster at MLB. He stopped a LOT of plays in the backfield.

[raider red 2000]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Against the spread offense, do you think it is more effective to load up the line and "speed rush" using your fastest players or play "soft" and defend the pass?

i think that it depends on what the Offense is trying to do.

take away what they do best.

[Gobbla2001]

Wow, real football talk, awesome...

Cuero ran 4-3 D when I was in high school...

[raider red 2000]

when i was in HS that is what we ran too.

i was a 2 technique.....i later found out that is where the slow guys play :(

[neck_06]

http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/1235/gaps02wf1.th.png (http://img420.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gaps02wf1.png)

this is how i learned it.........i think

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by neck_06
img=http://img308.imageshack.us/img308/456/gaps02qv3.th.png

this is how i learned it.........i think

http://img308.imageshack.us/img308/456/gaps02qv3.th.png

[pirate4state]

I like this...I'm learning the x's & o's. :D :D :clap:

[garageoffice]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
I understand the logic of that technique---you probably won't get "beat" by your man, but it seems extremely hard for the DB to turn and judge the flight of the ball adequately to intercept or time his jump or hand motions to defend in time. Seems like they could go back and forth from "man" to "ball". Again, maybe only the really good DB's could handle that, so coaches opt for the safest technique.

Bull, to this day I still don't really think our coaches were very good at football when I was in school. That was a long time ago and in another town. But, even then, the DB technique depended a lot on the player. Maybe that was because in such a small school (1A) you just had so much difference between your best coverage man and the others, I don't know.

Anyway, I was taught to play the receiver in the classic way, but also taught to play the QB and the ball, depending on what was happening. You had to be smart about it, though. I remember studying film on the receivers I would face, memorizing their common routes and working on WHEN I could safely look for the QB and the ball.

An example (I played corner): I positioned myself so I could see my man and the initial motion of the play. If it was coming my way, it was easy to sneak a look at the QB unless I was covering a real speed demon. If it was a straight drop, I had to be more careful. Either way, the farther you ran, the fewer options you had to consider.

Almost every pick I got was because I saw and reacted to the ball even before the receiver did.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by garageoffice
Bull, to this day I still don't really think our coaches were very good at football when I was in school. That was a long time ago and in another town. But, even then, the DB technique depended a lot on the player. Maybe that was because in such a small school (1A) you just had so much difference between your best coverage man and the others, I don't know.

Anyway, I was taught to play the receiver in the classic way, but also taught to play the QB and the ball, depending on what was happening. You had to be smart about it, though. I remember studying film on the receivers I would face, memorizing their common routes and working on WHEN I could safely look for the QB and the ball.

An example (I played corner): I positioned myself so I could see my man and the initial motion of the play. If it was coming my way, it was easy to sneak a look at the QB unless I was covering a real speed demon. If it was a straight drop, I had to be more careful. Either way, the farther you ran, the fewer options you had to consider.

Almost every pick I got was because I saw and reacted to the ball even before the receiver did.

Thanks for sharing your experience,g.o.---I guess I tend to judge kids by pro standards, but it just kills me to see another team's receiver 10-15 yds behind your team's secondary and have time to wait for a "duck" to fall into his arms. A well-executed pass route in which the QB delivers a "frozen rope" to a very fast receiver is one thing----letting receivers with a different colored jersey get more than 10 yards open in your secondary with none of your players within 10 yards, is another.

[garageoffice]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
Thanks for sharing your experience,g.o.---I guess I tend to judge kids by pro standards, but it just kills me to see another team's receiver 10-15 yds behind your team's secondary and have time to wait for a "duck" to fall into his arms. A well-executed pass route in which the QB delivers a "frozen rope" to a very fast receiver is one thing----letting receivers with a different colored jersey get more than 10 yards open in your secondary with none of your players within 10 yards, is another.

That's true, Bull! However, in my experience, a lot of those cases are busted zone coverages. The corner thought he had help deep, but didn't or was supposed to, but the safety didn't get there, etc.

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by Bullaholic
I guess I tend to judge kids by pro standards
And there would be your first mistake. ;)

[Odis]

Miscommunications in cover 2 blitz packages can get ugly like that.

[Bullaholic]

Originally posted by LH Panther Mom
And there would be your first mistake. ;)

Me and PPHSFan don't make mistakes anymore......:D

[g$$]

Right on the money, Neck 06. That is it, then & now. That new way on page 1 is just something some coaches feel they can teach easier (as in 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9). I asked a friend of mine over the weekend who played o-line at Ok State if he had ever seen that diagram & he said no. He was taught the way you & I know posted above. A 5 technique is not head up on the tackle, etc. But whatever works & is easiest to understand & teach I guess. That is what makes strategy fun in the terminology, x's & o's, etc. of football coaches.

[neck_06]

Originally posted by raider red 2000
i think that it depends on what the Offense is trying to do.

take away what they do best.

so if you play wharton, then you put 2 or 3 on shelton and spy on ansley...........right? ;)