Hall of Fame Debate

[District303aPastPlayer]

Mark McGwire... Does he get in: Yes or No?

[SWMustang]

I hope not, but I bet he does.

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by SWMustang
I hope not, but I bet he does.

same here

[Txbroadcaster]

Take away the Roids issue, and I still DONT think he should get in.

He only batted over .300 twice, he is a career .263 average. Had more than a 100 RBI in only 7 seasons.

He was a one trick pony. But since that one trick was the HR, he was pumped up to an icon of baseball.

[Gp83]

McGuire, Soza and Bonds all tainted the game. Nothing but frauds:mad:

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster


in only 7 seasons.



????

That isn't good???

A lot of people are in without batting over 100 twice...

I agree he shouldn't get in, but geez those numbers aren't bad ha...

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
????

That isn't good???

A lot of people are in without batting over 100 twice...

I agree he shouldn't get in, but geez those numbers aren't bad ha...

they are not bad, but the HOF is not for the "not bad" but for the BEST.

Fred McGriff had 8 100 RBI seasons

Joe Carter had 10

Juan Gonzalez had 8

Bagwell had 8

Gary Sheffield has 8

Jim Rice had 8

JOSE CANSECO had 9!

And those are just some quick ones I looked at.

I have just always thought Big Mac's total worth was VASTLY overrated because of the HR. Yes he was a power hitter..But he was not a great hitter, or even run producer.

[injuredinmelee]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
they are not bad, but the HOF is not for the "not bad" but for the BEST.

Fred McGriff had 8 100 RBI seasons

Joe Carter had 10

Juan Gonzalez had 8

Bagwell had 8

Gary Sheffield has 8

Jim Rice had 8

JOSE CANSECO had 9!

And those are just some quick ones I looked at.

I have just always thought Big Mac's total worth was VASTLY overrated because of the HR. Yes he was a power hitter..But he was not a great hitter, or even run producer.

Nice research. I have to vote No also. You swayed me.

[Adidas410s]

I vote yes...but I doubt he gets in...at least on the first ballot.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by injuredinmelee
Nice research. I have to vote No also. You swayed me.

give me a few to put together some numbers for ya...you'll be surprised on some of the guys that got in too!

[Adidas410s]

Mark McGwire - .263 Avg, 583 HR, 1414 RBI's, 6187 AB's (this stat makes it even more interesting)

Current HOF's

Carlton Fisk - .269 Avg, 376 HR, 1330 RBI's, 8756 AB's
Robin Yount - .285 Avg, 251 HR, 1406 RBI's, 11008 AB's
Mike Schmidt - .268 Avg, 548 HR, 1595 RBI's, 8352 AB's
Harmon Killebrew - .256, 573 HR, 1584 RBI's, 8147 AB's

I think that Killebrew is the best comparison because he also played 1B like McGwire. One that must be pointed out is all these guys had roughly the same production (Fisk and Yount with fewer HR's) but McGwire did it with 2000 fewer at-bats!!!


:eek:

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Mark McGwire - .263 Avg, 583 HR, 1414 RBI's, 6187 AB's (this stat makes it even more interesting)

Current HOF's

Carlton Fisk - .269 Avg, 376 HR, 1330 RBI's, 8756 AB's
Robin Yount - .285 Avg, 251 HR, 1406 RBI's, 11008 AB's
Mike Schmidt - .268 Avg, 548 HR, 1595 RBI's, 8352 AB's
Harmon Killebrew - .256, 573 HR, 1584 RBI's, 8147 AB's

I think that Killebrew is the best comparison because he also played 1B like McGwire. One that must be pointed out is all these guys had roughly the same production (Fisk and Yount with fewer HR's) but McGwire did it with 2000 fewer at-bats!!!


:eek:

they also did it without using roids... just a thought as well :)

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Mark McGwire - .263 Avg, 583 HR, 1414 RBI's, 6187 AB's (this stat makes it even more interesting)

Current HOF's

Carlton Fisk - .269 Avg, 376 HR, 1330 RBI's, 8756 AB's
Robin Yount - .285 Avg, 251 HR, 1406 RBI's, 11008 AB's
Mike Schmidt - .268 Avg, 548 HR, 1595 RBI's, 8352 AB's
Harmon Killebrew - .256, 573 HR, 1584 RBI's, 8147 AB's

I think that Killebrew is the best comparison because he also played 1B like McGwire. One that must be pointed out is all these guys had roughly the same production (Fisk and Yount with fewer HR's) but McGwire did it with 2000 fewer at-bats!!!


:eek:

very good research... this is what I'm talking about, you cannot really say with the "numbers" he produced that he is not worthy...

I mean all of these guys with 8 seasons with 100+ rbis means they just have one more than he does haha...

His stats are HOF stats no matter how you slice 'em

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
they also did it without using roids... just a thought as well :)

Now provide proof that steroids cause you to be able to hit, run, and throw with more precision than without them. ;)

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Now provide proof that steroids cause you to be able to hit, run, and throw with more precision than without them. ;)

well we shouldn't in relation to the information that has gone back and forth on his stats... those are stats we're discussing so the 'roids really doesn't fit in with it...

I honestly believe if it were a different player with the same stats, maybe even a favorite of theirs, that folks would think differently about making a HOF'er out of a guy with those kind of stats...

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Take away the Roids issue, and I still DONT think he should get in.

He only batted over .300 twice, he is a career .263 average. Had more than a 100 RBI in only 7 seasons.

He was a one trick pony. But since that one trick was the HR, he was pumped up to an icon of baseball.
Hell no, McGwire wasn't a one-trick pony. Maybe you've already forgot the Bash Brothers, but he may have been the most feared power hitter of the late-80's, even surpassing teammate Jose Canseco.

The reason that McGwire didn't have that many 100 RBI seasons was because of his injuries. If he could've stayed healthy, I think he'd have beat Cecil Fielder to the 50 HR plateau.

Look at his first year in the bigs, he was kinda scrawny, first time to take on big league pitching, he almost became the first person since 1977 to hit 50 home runs. He didn't swell up until the mid- to late-90's. You give him five healthy years on the weight lifting program he was on, he would've hit 50 several times without the juice.

Look at his stats his first four full years in the bigs.
1987- 49 HR/118 RBI
1988- 32/99
1989- 33/95
1990- 39/108

Then he had a couple of injury-plagued years in '91 and '92, but still hit 42 dingers and 102 RBI in '92 with only 467 AB.

The biggest thing everyone was talking about going into the '98 season and his pursuit of Maris was his AB/HR ratio and how it was right there with the Babe. Just for grins, let's check it out from '87 through '92, the years where he definitely wasn't on the juice:

3,070 AB and 217 HR. That's a ratio of a homerun every 14.1 AB. Barry Bonds with the juice stands at 12.94, the second-greatest 1b ever, Jimmie Foxx, is at 15.23, and Lou Gehrig, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron come in at 16+.

He's a power hitter, and power hitters aren't necessarily asked to get on base a whole lot.

If he would've just taken Andro, stayed off the juice, and played his last five years healthy, he would've been a HOF player anyways.

The question you have to ask yourself isn't whether his numbers over those first few years are worthy of the Hall, because they DEFINITELY ARE. Go look at the numbers of Willie McCovey or Tony Perez and tell me that McGwire doesn't belong in there ahead of those guys. IMO, he'd be the sixth-best first baseman on the list of HOFers (behind Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, George Sisler, Bill Terry [best defensive 1B of all time], and Cap Anson [first man to 3K hits], in that order). What you have to ask yourself is this: did he taint the game so bad that he doesn't deserve to be viewed as a part of the good side of baseball? Was he famous or infamous? Does he belong with Gehrig, Ruth and Aaron or with the Black Sox and Pete Rose.

Don't take my argument the wrong way. I'm not saying McGwire deserves to be in there, I'm just giving a counterpoint to a few misleading stats. Although Carter and Pat Henke were probably two my favorite players in my early adolesence (the Jays are my favorite team), there's no way in hell Carter was in McGwire's league as a power hitter. It would be like comparing Aramis Ramirez or Lance Berkman to Albert Pujols today.

Would either Ramirez or Berkman make a great number four hitter for any team?
Of course.

Are they feared as much as Pujols?
Not even close.

That's what McGwire was. He was the guy that made pitchers pitch to Canseco... and pitchers would pitch around him even with a guy like Carney Lansford or Dave Parker hitting behind him.

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Hell no, McGwire wasn't a one-trick pony. Maybe you've already forgot the Bash Brothers, but he may have been the most feared power hitter of the late-80's, even surpassing teammate Jose Canseco.

The reason that McGwire didn't have that many 100 RBI seasons was because of his injuries. If he could've stayed healthy, I think he'd have beat Cecil Fielder to the 50 HR plateau.

Look at his first year in the bigs, he was kinda scrawny, first time to take on big league pitching, he almost became the first person since 1977 to hit 50 home runs. He didn't swell up until the mid- to late-90's. You give him five healthy years on the weight lifting program he was on, he would've hit 50 several times without the juice.

Look at his stats his first four full years in the bigs.
1987- 49 HR/118 RBI
1988- 32/99
1989- 33/95
1990- 39/108

Then he had a couple of injury-plagued years in '91 and '92, but still hit 42 dingers and 102 RBI in '92 with only 467 AB.

The biggest thing everyone was talking about going into the '98 season and his pursuit of Maris was his AB/HR ratio and how it was right there with the Babe. Just for grins, let's check it out from '87 through '92, the years where he definitely wasn't on the juice:

3,070 AB and 217 HR. That's a ratio of a homerun every 14.1 AB. Barry Bonds with the juice stands at 12.94, the second-greatest 1b ever, Jimmie Foxx, is at 15.23, and Lou Gehrig, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron come in at 16+.

He's a power hitter, and power hitters aren't necessarily asked to get on base a whole lot.

If he would've just taken Andro, stayed off the juice, and played his last five years healthy, he would've been a HOF player anyways.

The question you have to ask yourself isn't whether his numbers over those first few years are worthy of the Hall, because they DEFINITELY ARE. Go look at the numbers of Willie McCovey or Tony Perez and tell me that McGwire doesn't belong in there ahead of those guys. IMO, he'd be the sixth-best first baseman on the list of HOFers (behind Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, George Sisler, Bill Terry [best defensive 1B of all time], and Cap Anson [first man to 3K hits], in that order). What you have to ask yourself is this: did he taint the game so bad that he doesn't deserve to be viewed as a part of the good side of baseball? Was he famous or infamous? Does he belong with Gehrig, Ruth and Aaron or with the Black Sox and Pete Rose.

Don't take my argument the wrong way. I'm not saying McGwire deserves to be in there, I'm just giving a counterpoint to a few misleading stats. Although Carter and Pat Henke were probably two my favorite players in my early adolesence (the Jays are my favorite team), there's no way in hell Carter was in McGwire's league as a power hitter. It would be like comparing Aramis Ramirez or Lance Berkman to Albert Pujols today.

Would either Ramirez or Berkman make a great number four hitter for any team?
Of course.

Are they feared as much as Pujols?
Not even close.

That's what McGwire was. He was the guy that made pitchers pitch to Canseco... and pitchers would pitch around him even with a guy like Carney Lansford or Dave Parker hitting behind him.

snap

[big daddy russ]

1987
http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/mcgwire87tp.jpg
Kinda scrawny.

1990
http://www.peaktown.com/folder3/ClydePics/MCGWIRE433.jpg
Still pretty scrawny.

1993
http://sportscardsandstuff.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/mcgwire93ud.jpg
A little bigger, but he hadn't hit the roids just yet.

1994
http://sportscardsandstuff.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/mcgwire94p.jpg
Injuries the past two years had made him fat. He still was working out, but I think he started juicing right around here or '95.

1998
http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nl/stlcards/Mc62.JPG
By '98, he's a ma-cheen, vato.



And just for fun, an early pic of Jason Giambi.
http://www.historicmodesto.com/Resources/jasongiambi1a.jpeg

[Gobbla2001]

2006, scrawny again:

http://www.danheller.com/images/LatinAmerica/Cuba/People/Men/homeless-man-3-big.jpg

[Fal44]

dang!!! look at that tan

[Txbroadcaster]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Hell no, McGwire wasn't a one-trick pony. Maybe you've already forgot the Bash Brothers, but he may have been the most feared power hitter of the late-80's, even surpassing teammate Jose Canseco.

The reason that McGwire didn't have that many 100 RBI seasons was because of his injuries. If he could've stayed healthy, I think he'd have beat Cecil Fielder to the 50 HR plateau.

Look at his first year in the bigs, he was kinda scrawny, first time to take on big league pitching, he almost became the first person since 1977 to hit 50 home runs. He didn't swell up until the mid- to late-90's. You give him five healthy years on the weight lifting program he was on, he would've hit 50 several times without the juice.

Look at his stats his first four full years in the bigs.
1987- 49 HR/118 RBI
1988- 32/99
1989- 33/95
1990- 39/108

Then he had a couple of injury-plagued years in '91 and '92, but still hit 42 dingers and 102 RBI in '92 with only 467 AB.

The biggest thing everyone was talking about going into the '98 season and his pursuit of Maris was his AB/HR ratio and how it was right there with the Babe. Just for grins, let's check it out from '87 through '92, the years where he definitely wasn't on the juice:

3,070 AB and 217 HR. That's a ratio of a homerun every 14.1 AB. Barry Bonds with the juice stands at 12.94, the second-greatest 1b ever, Jimmie Foxx, is at 15.23, and Lou Gehrig, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron come in at 16+.

He's a power hitter, and power hitters aren't necessarily asked to get on base a whole lot.

If he would've just taken Andro, stayed off the juice, and played his last five years healthy, he would've been a HOF player anyways.

The question you have to ask yourself isn't whether his numbers over those first few years are worthy of the Hall, because they DEFINITELY ARE. Go look at the numbers of Willie McCovey or Tony Perez and tell me that McGwire doesn't belong in there ahead of those guys. IMO, he'd be the sixth-best first baseman on the list of HOFers (behind Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, George Sisler, Bill Terry [best defensive 1B of all time], and Cap Anson [first man to 3K hits], in that order). What you have to ask yourself is this: did he taint the game so bad that he doesn't deserve to be viewed as a part of the good side of baseball? Was he famous or infamous? Does he belong with Gehrig, Ruth and Aaron or with the Black Sox and Pete Rose.

Don't take my argument the wrong way. I'm not saying McGwire deserves to be in there, I'm just giving a counterpoint to a few misleading stats. Although Carter and Pat Henke were probably two my favorite players in my early adolesence (the Jays are my favorite team), there's no way in hell Carter was in McGwire's league as a power hitter. It would be like comparing Aramis Ramirez or Lance Berkman to Albert Pujols today.

Would either Ramirez or Berkman make a great number four hitter for any team?
Of course.

Are they feared as much as Pujols?
Not even close.

That's what McGwire was. He was the guy that made pitchers pitch to Canseco... and pitchers would pitch around him even with a guy like Carney Lansford or Dave Parker hitting behind him.


I never said he was not a great power hitter..He was..but that alone should not put hm in the HOF. I am sorry but 39 HR 108 RBI are great for a season(1990) but he friggin hit .235 that year...the year before he hit .231.

he had TWO seasons of .300 or better. Hed had FOUR seasons of below .235

He was an all or nothing swing for the fences power hitter. Yes he could hit the long ball. But baseball is about doing MANY things, and being in the HOF should be about being a great ALL AROUND player. He was not.

Throw in the fact he batted .188 in WS play and in 42 games in the postseason had FIVE HR. I just dont see hm as a first ballot guy.

He won the ROY..never won the MVP..won ONE gold glove. Those IMO are not HOF first ballot stats.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
Throw in the fact he batted .188 in WS play and in 42 games in the postseason had FIVE HR. I just dont see hm as a first ballot guy.

He won the ROY..never won the MVP..won ONE gold glove. Those IMO are not HOF first ballot stats.

Why should there be a difference between 1st ballot or not 1st ballot? IMO, if you think a guy should be in the HOF then you vote for him regardless of how many times he is on the ballot. There is a lot of talk that he would get enough votes after the 1st ballot...but it must be remembered that if a guy doesn't get enough votes in a given year then he never gets back on the ballot.

[sahen]

we need to also remember him and Sosa pretty much revived baseball....the strike had literally killed baseball and Ripken Jr. brought some people back w/ the games played streak but McGwire and Sosa brought back the fans that were still away and even grew baseball's fan base...i dont know if he is going to get in or not, but i am pretty sure that will be on the voters minds....im glad i dont have to vote for it because it would be a tuff decision for me...

[tigerpride_08]

even though what he did was wrong, he still had great a complishments...i remember hearing that even with steroids the ball would only travel 5 feet farther!...

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Txbroadcaster
I never said he was not a great power hitter..He was..but that alone should not put hm in the HOF. I am sorry but 39 HR 108 RBI are great for a season(1990) but he friggin hit .235 that year...the year before he hit .231.

he had TWO seasons of .300 or better. Hed had FOUR seasons of below .235

He was an all or nothing swing for the fences power hitter. Yes he could hit the long ball. But baseball is about doing MANY things, and being in the HOF should be about being a great ALL AROUND player. He was not.

Throw in the fact he batted .188 in WS play and in 42 games in the postseason had FIVE HR. I just dont see hm as a first ballot guy.

He won the ROY..never won the MVP..won ONE gold glove. Those IMO are not HOF first ballot stats.
Well then, let's get Willie McCovey, Ozzie Smith, Willie Stargell, and Reggie Jackson out of there. All except Smith were power hitters. Jackson was clutch, but all were pretty one-dimensional nonetheless. The Wizard of Oz wasn't much with a stick, but he was great with the leather. McCovey and Stargell could bring the lumber, but not much else.

The thing about power hitters is that them and pitchers have more of an impact than anyone else on the field. Because they have that kind of sway on the outcome of a game, the truly elite ones don't have to have the all-around game that others may.... and the fact that he still was good enough defensively to win a Gold Glove says volumes about the his defensive play. McGwire may have only hit .263 over his career, but his average with RISP with .290. I don't think that his failure to reach 100 in '88 and '89 (he had 99 and 95 RBI, respectively) was entirely his fault. Also, he had 90 in '95 in 317 AB and 81 in '97 with only 363 AB.

I can understand how someone would want to hold him to that Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, or Teddy Ballgame standard of all-around excellence, but he impacted the game every bit as much as these guys without the average and the speed.

A five-tool guy? Definitely not. But he could change the outcome of any contest quicker than Jason Bay, Bobby Abreu or Carlos Beltran could ever dream.

Back to the thread, the numbers say HOFer, but the 'Roid question counterbalances that argument.

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Well then, let's get Willie McCovey, Ozzie Smith, Willie Stargell, and Reggie Jackson out of there. All except Smith were power hitters. Jackson was clutch, but all were pretty one-dimensional nonetheless. The Wizard of Oz wasn't much with a stick, but he was great with the leather. McCovey and Stargell could bring the lumber, but not much else.

The thing about power hitters is that them and pitchers have more of an impact than anyone else on the field. Because they have that kind of sway on the outcome of a game, the truly elite ones don't have to have the all-around game that others may.... and the fact that he still was good enough defensively to win a Gold Glove says volumes about the his defensive play. McGwire may have only hit .263 over his career, but his average with RISP with .290. I don't think that his failure to reach 100 in '88 and '89 (he had 99 and 95 RBI, respectively) was entirely his fault. Also, he had 90 in '95 in 317 AB and 81 in '97 with only 363 AB.

I can understand how someone would want to hold him to that Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, or Teddy Ballgame standard of all-around excellence, but he impacted the game every bit as much as these guys without the average and the speed.

A five-tool guy? Definitely not. But he could change the outcome of any contest quicker than Jason Bay, Bobby Abreu or Carlos Beltran could ever dream.

Back to the thread, the numbers say HOFer, but the 'Roid question counterbalances that argument.

Dude, you're like a seven-legged man in a butt-kickin' contest right now...

Obviously Tx doesn't like the guy, I don't either after what we have found out, but I'm not biased and can say those are HOF numbers...

but y'all did get him to change it to 'first ballot'... kudos guys...

[neck_06]

If Pete Rose and Barry Bonds don't get in, then Mark McGwire shouldn't get in.

And thats the bottom line. :mad:

[Gobbla2001]

I think if Pete Rose had a hall of fame baseball career without being juiced or anything the guy should be let in...

[wedo]

What about Micheal Irvin? Should he get in the football hall of fame? He did nothing illegal to help his career and make him a better football player!!! Why should he not get in?? It is the Hall of fame of football, not the who is the best person hall of fame!!!!

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by wedo
What about Micheal Irvin? Should he get in the football hall of fame? He did nothing illegal to help his career and make him a better football player!!! Why should he not get in?? It is the Hall of fame of football, not the who is the best person hall of fame!!!! I think that very question has been debated on a football thread.

[Gobbla2001]

Originally posted by wedo
What about Micheal Irvin? Should he get in the football hall of fame? He did nothing illegal to help his career and make him a better football player!!! Why should he not get in?? It is the Hall of fame of football, not the who is the best person hall of fame!!!!

Well if you go on an all-out killing spree or something tragically mad like that then I wouldn't think about letting you in...

But if you make normal human mistakes without actually planning on seriously hurting someone I say who gives a flip...

as long as you were not illegally enhancing your game you should be okay to me...

[wedo]

Thats what i think!!!

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by neck_06
If Pete Rose and Barry Bonds don't get in, then Mark McGwire shouldn't get in.

And thats the bottom line. :mad:

Pete Rose bet on baseball. That was illegal...the cardinal sin of his time. One of the greatest players ever...and he definitely deserves to be in the main room of the HOF but his actions will keep him from there. Heck, he gets just as much recognition as any other HOF player.

Nobody has said that Bonds wouldn't get in...heck he won't be eligible for at least 6 more years so that discussion will come up eventually. How the writers treat McGwire will definitely impact Bonds' chances of getting in.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
But if you make normal human mistakes without actually planning on seriously hurting someone I say who gives a flip...



I didn't know that crack was a "normal human mistake"...hmm guess I missed that memo! ;)

[wedo]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
I didn't know that crack was a "normal human mistake"...hmm guess I missed that memo! ;)

Thats true!! But he did nothing to help his stats and accomplishments in the NFL!!!!

[AggieJohn]

yes, he goes in, but he doesn't show up to the induction

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Gobbla2001
I think if Pete Rose had a hall of fame baseball career without being juiced or anything the guy should be let in...
I'm actually more dead-set against ever letting Rose in than anyone else in baseball history. Well, him and the Black Sox. The thing about 'roids is that you're changing the game in order to gain a competitive advantage. You're trying to win.

With gambling, let's say you put a bunch of money against your team (and I don't believe for a second the Rose, as much of a gambler and liar as he is, has never bet against the Reds). You're trying to change the game in order to lose.

At least there was still someone standing between McGwire and a W. Sometimes that guy was a Randy Johnson, a Bret Saberhagen, Nolan Ryan, Jack McDowell, or a Curt Schilling. Sometimes it was a Charlie Hough, Doug Drabek, Kirk McCaskill, or a Darryl Kile. Either way, if you're trying to win, there will be some obstacles between you and your goal. If you're trying to fail, there's nobody standing between you and your goal.

McGwire didn't completely tamper with the integrity of the game. Rose did. Rose is a worthless human being, and the only reason he would get into the Hall in the first place would be the hits record. If you lined his stats up against a clean McGwire's (we'll say that he would've averaged 45 homers and 100 RBI a year his last few years), I'd vote McGwire in ahead of Rose ten days a week and twice on Sunday.

I can't stand Rose. I was glad when he screwed himself out of the Hall a few years back.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
I'm actually more dead-set against ever letting Rose in than anyone else in baseball history. Well, him and the Black Sox. The thing about 'roids is that you're changing the game in order to gain a competitive advantage. You're trying to win.

With gambling, let's say you put a bunch of money against your team (and I don't believe for a second the Rose, as much of a gambler and liar as he is, has never bet against the Reds). You're trying to change the game in order to lose.

At least there was still someone standing between McGwire and a W. Sometimes that guy was a Randy Johnson, Jack McDowell, or a Curt Schilling. If you're trying to win, there will be some obstacles between you and your goal. If you're trying to fail, there's nobody standing between you and your goal.

Russ...I wish I knew how to quit you!!!

http://www.galleywinter.com/main/images/smiles/lori.gif http://www.galleywinter.com/main/images/smiles/ilu.gif

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Russ...I wish I knew how to quit you!!!

http://www.galleywinter.com/main/images/smiles/lori.gif http://www.galleywinter.com/main/images/smiles/ilu.gif

:eek: Someone needs a nap! :)

Russ is awesome though!!! :thumbsup:

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by pirate4state
:eek: Someone needs a nap!

Or a girl!!:eek: :eek: :eek:










j/k adidas!!

You know I love ya!!:inlove: :kiss: :inlove:

[DaHop72]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Or a girl!!







:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Or a girl!!:eek: :eek: :eek:


j/k adidas!!

You know I love ya!!:inlove: :kiss: :inlove:

What I wan't I'm not getting...and what I get I'm not totally sure if I want! :(

Oh well...it is what it is! ;)

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Russ...I wish I knew how to quit you!!!

http://www.galleywinter.com/main/images/smiles/lori.gif http://www.galleywinter.com/main/images/smiles/ilu.gif
:eek: :eek: :eek: RUN, RUSSELL, RUN!!!

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
What I wan't I'm not getting...and what I get I'm not totally sure if I want! :(

Oh well...it is what it is! ;)

WOW!! My mind went the opposite direction than what you were probably trying to say!

I think I will just leave that one alone for the time being!!

(Im with Deb though....RUN RUSS RUN!)

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
WOW!! My mind went the opposite direction than what you were probably trying to say!

I think I will just leave that one alone for the time being!!

(Im with Deb though....RUN RUSS RUN!)

Well I threw that out there knowing full well where you would probably go with that one! :thumbsup:

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
What I wan't I'm not getting...and what I get I'm not totally sure if I want! :(

Oh well...it is what it is! ;) Uh....Uh.....this is just a guess, but we have officially hijacked this thread! :eek: :eek:

[DaHop72]

Originally posted by pirate4state
Uh....Uh.....this is just a guess, but we have officially hijacked this thread! :eek: :eek: http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6232/threadjackedne5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by pirate4state
Uh....Uh.....this is just a guess, but we have officially hijacked this thread! :eek: :eek:

I was just trying to show admiration for Russ' intuitive posting.

[Ranger Mom]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Well I threw that out there knowing full well where you would probably go with that one! :thumbsup:

Wow!! That doesn't say a lot for me, does it!!:( :(

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
I was just trying to show admiration for Russ' intuitive posting. I know, but this is more fun! :D

[pirate4state]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Wow!! That doesn't say a lot for me, does it!!:( :( I'm still looking for that back peddling smiley. ;) :D :D

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
Wow!! That doesn't say a lot for me, does it!!:( :(

As long as you are honest with yourself at the end of the day...sometimes that's all you can ask for.