McMurry..no longer the Indians?????

[GetRDoneStangs]

This is a load of crap from the NCAA, they are so obsesed with being so d@m political it is flat out stupid! McMurry always did such a great job in promoting and educating about the heritage of the American Indian and now the NCAA steps in and waves it's mighty fist...:mad: :mad:

I know they are not the only ones to get the shaft, but some schools got "waivers"...We will wait and see what they decide to do next.

http://www.reporternews.com/abil/sp_lc_mcmurry_univ/article/0,1874,ABIL_8787_4892828,00.html

[Manck]

Also getting the shaft is Newberry College.

We can't host any NCAA postseason events, and when we make the NCAA postseason, we can't wear any jerseys that say Indians. At least as of right now.

[GetRDoneStangs]

Originally posted by Manck
Also getting the shaft is Newberry College.

We can't host any NCAA postseason events, and when we make the NCAA postseason, we can't wear any jerseys that say Indians. At least as of right now.

That is just wrong!! Doesn't the NCAA have something better to do??

Hello OU!!!:mad:

[maestro]

white males are the only group left to harass....

[sahen]

im pretty sure North Dakota got shafted too, they are suing the NCAA who wants them to now just go by the University of North Dakota...oops, Dakota is an indian tribe too...

[Z motion 10 out on 2]

I bet that McM will also sue.

[Snydertigersrul]

Originally posted by Z motion 10 out on 2
I bet that McM will also sue.


They just need to change their mascot and everything will be okay. The UIL will soon enforce the same rules for high schools.

[injuredinmelee]

I cant understand this rule. In some ways i see the point like a school using Redmen which has to be slang or FIghting Souix or something like that but just the word Indian. I cannot understand how that is derogatory.

[Snydertigersrul]

Originally posted by injuredinmelee
I cant understand this rule. In some ways i see the point like a school using Redmen which has to be slang or FIghting Souix or something like that but just the word Indian. I cannot understand how that is derogatory.



Schools that use mascots like that are degrading Native Americans.

[Sweetwater Red]

I read this yesterday in the ARN. What a joke.

[Ranger Mom]

I wonder how long before the Greenwood Rangers have to holster their guns??

[Sweetwater Red]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I wonder how long before the Greenwood Rangers have to holster their guns??

Yeah, I can see Yosemite Sam becomming offensive to some group
of people down the road. :D

[CalallenWildcat]

The NCAA has ruled that William and Mary, who goes by the nickname "Tribe," has to eliminate two feathers that are incorporated into the logo.

http://www.collegegear.com/sf/stores/product_images/70437.jpg

[LH Panther Mom]

Originally posted by Ranger Mom
I wonder how long before the Greenwood Rangers have to holster their guns??
If the UIL takes after the NCAA, probably next week. :D Let's just make ALL teams be some kind of animal. Oh, but wait a minute...the "female" version of some of the animals might offend someone, so let's all change our mascots to something that's generic. How about the Greenwood Father Times (boys) and Mother Natures (girls)? Or maybe just Greenwood Columbia Blue team. ;)

Maybe McMurry can become the Native Americans. :thinking:

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by Snydertigersrul
Schools that use mascots like that are degrading Native Americans.
Uh huh. All the other native Americans who are crying about this need to strap on a pair and stop making themselves look like arses. They're being babies. It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I may not be full-blooded, but with what little I do have I'm ashamed that they're targeting schools with names like "Indians" and "The Fighting Sioux," a name that was mentioned earlier.

How is Sioux derogatory? For that matter, how is "Indians," a name born out of Christopher Columbus' confusion and NOT his prejudice, derogatory?

Stuff like "Redmen" and other terms that used to be a slight against Native Americans are fair game. But "Indians," "Sioux," "The Tribe." They're going waaay overboard with this stuff.

You know what, Sweetwater, Ingleside, Houston Lamar, Corpus Christi King, and all the other schools out there that use the name "Mustangs" can't use that name, either. According to PETA, it violates the feelings and psyche of all the tamed horses out there who wish to run around in the wild.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[Maroon87]

I guess the Tuloso-Midway Warriors should start thinking of a new nickname...:rolleyes:

[Sweetwater Red]

Originally posted by Maroon87
I guess the Tuloso-Midway Warriors should start thinking of a new nickname...:rolleyes:

Well, that depends. Are they Greek or Roman warriors? Because
that's okay. It's the Indian thing that is under attack...:rolleyes:

Atlanta Braves
Washington Redskins
Florida St. Seminoles

You know all those types. Don't get me started on that Tomahawk
chop the Braves and Seminoles fans do. :D

[Astrosdawg07]

Originally posted by Snydertigersrul
Schools that use mascots like that are degrading Native Americans.

How, that's is not the schools intention. I guess Jasper is degrading Bulldogs by using Bulldogs as their mascot.

[Z motion 10 out on 2]

MCM takes pride in the diversity of the college as well as the Indian traditions (Whatever they are -- I haven't attended-- but the college website seems to hold Indians in high esteem).

I hope they sue as I think the college will win.

Being a country boy I'm not offended by the "Cowboys" of Dallas or Hardin-Simmons.

[CalallenWildcat]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
Well, that depends. Are they Greek or Roman warriors? Because
that's okay. It's the Indian thing that is under attack...:rolleyes:

Atlanta Braves
Washington Redskins
Florida St. Seminoles

You know all those types. Don't get me started on that Tomahawk
chop the Braves and Seminoles fans do. :D

They are Cherokee Warriors. Their girls teams are known as the Cherokees.

The Tuloso-Midway fight song is a corruption of Florida State's "War Chant." It gets pretty annoying after awhile.

How long before Notre Dame has to change their name from the "Fighting Irish" to the "Fighting Shamrocks???"

[Maroon87]

Originally posted by CalallenWildcat
How long before Notre Dame has to change their name from the "Fighting Irish" to the "Fighting Shamrocks???"

No kidding. I'm of Irish descent and I am highly offended that Notre Dame is suggesting that all Irish people are violent. This must not stand!:p :D

[CalallenWildcat]

Originally posted by Maroon87
No kidding. I'm of Irish descent and I am highly offended that Notre Dame is suggesting that all Irish people are violent. This must not stand!:p :D

Since Notre Dame Cathedral is in Paris, I favor a name change to the "Fighting French," which obviously is so paradoxical it cannot be an insult to people of French descent! :D

[luvhoops34]

Way back in the day, my husband's uncle went to McMurray on a basketball scholarship.

[sahen]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
Well, that depends. Are they Greek or Roman warriors? Because
that's okay. It's the Indian thing that is under attack...:rolleyes:

Atlanta Braves
Washington Redskins
Florida St. Seminoles

You know all those types. Don't get me started on that Tomahawk
chop the Braves and Seminoles fans do. :D actually Florida St. threatened to sue the NCAA and they backed off of them and they can still use Seminole....if you have money and a big name you are immune to the NCAA, its the smaller colleges that are being forced to change, i hope North Dakota goes through w/ their lawsuit to stop this crap....NCAA is only supposed to be a nonbiased body that governs athletic competition among amateurs making sure they are student athletes....they should go worry aobut OU not William and Mary, if the Indians have a problem w/ the name then sue the school and let it go through the law, thats what we have it for....

[GetRDoneStangs]

Originally posted by sahen
actually Florida St. threatened to sue the NCAA and they backed off of them and they can still use Seminole....if you have money and a big name you are immune to the NCAA, its the smaller colleges that are being forced to change, i hope North Dakota goes through w/ their lawsuit to stop this crap....NCAA is only supposed to be a nonbiased body that governs athletic competition among amateurs making sure they are student athletes....they should go worry aobut OU not William and Mary, if the Indians have a problem w/ the name then sue the school and let it go through the law, thats what we have it for....

Amen!! I hope thay all go after the NCAA, give us a break....I mean don't they have some Laboratories to inspect??:thinking:

[Manck]

The small schools are getting screwed the worst, specifically Division II and Division III.

Catawba College of Salisbury, NC is in our conference. They got a letter from the Catawba Tribe to the NCAA similar to the one that Florida State got from the Seminole Tribe.

The NCAA ruled they can use "Catawba Indians" but not just "Indians," which means according to the NCAA they are the Catawba Catawba Indians.

The NCAA sucks. That is all.

Link to Catawba Athletics: http://www.gocatawbaindians.com/
There's links about the NCAA ruling on the bottom right.

[Bull Butter]

this just in.......................

Famous Bear to sue University

JELLYSTONE PARK--(AP) Yogi Bear, in a move prompted by the NCAA's banning of Indian mascots, has decided to sue Baylor University citing it's "degrading" use of the mascot name"Bears". According to Yogi's attorney, Bullwinkle J. Moose, "We all know that Yogi is smarter than the average bear, however the Baylor student is not smarter than the average college student and Mr. Bear feels that Baylor's use of the term "Bears" is a paw in the face to bears everywhere."
Yogi is suing the University for $1,000,000 or 100,000 picnic baskets.

Baylor officials had no comment.

[sahen]

Originally posted by Bull Butter
this just in.......................

Famous Bear to sue University

JELLYSTONE PARK--(AP) Yogi Bear, in a move prompted by the NCAA's banning of Indian mascots, has decided to sue Baylor University citing it's "degrading" use of the mascot name"Bears". According to Yogi's attorney, Bullwinkle J. Moose, "We all know that Yogi is smarter than the average bear, however the Baylor student is not smarter than the average college student and Mr. Bear feels that Baylor's use of the term "Bears" is a paw in the face to bears everywhere."
Yogi is suing the University for $1,000,000 or 100,000 picnic baskets.

Baylor officials had no comment. i wonder if this will prompt Tony the Tiger to sue LSU or Mizzou?....we can shell out a million bucks and our school is like 70% women, im sure we can get 100,000 good picnic baskets made to keep Mr. Bear quiet so i think he went too low on his amount, however i wont complain if we can give him the goods and keep the name...

[IHStangFan]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
Uh huh. All the other native Americans who are crying about this need to strap on a pair and stop making themselves look like arses. They're being babies. It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I may not be full-blooded, but with what little I do have I'm ashamed that they're targeting schools with names like "Indians" and "The Fighting Sioux," a name that was mentioned earlier.

How is Sioux derogatory? For that matter, how is "Indians," a name born out of Christopher Columbus' confusion and NOT his prejudice, derogatory?

Stuff like "Redmen" and other terms that used to be a slight against Native Americans are fair game. But "Indians," "Sioux," "The Tribe." They're going waaay overboard with this stuff.

You know what, Sweetwater, Ingleside, Houston Lamar, Corpus Christi King, and all the other schools out there that use the name "Mustangs" can't use that name, either. According to PETA, it violates the feelings and psyche of all the tamed horses out there who wish to run around in the wild.

Absolutely ridiculous. yup...whos next?? The Fighting Irish? The Ragin Cajins? The Thundering Herd? Fighting Illini? Political Correctness is destroying this country on all levels.

[sahen]

Originally posted by IHStangFan
yup...whos next?? The Fighting Irish? The Ragin Cajins? The Thundering Herd? Fighting Illini? Political Correctness is destroying this country on all levels. dont have to worry about the Fighting Illini, they threatened to sue just like Florida State, their money and rep helped them out there just like the Seminoles...and of course a good argument since the NCAA wanted them to just go by "Illinois" instead of Illini...the irony for all u non french speakers Illinois = Illini....the NCAA is way outa hand on this, Native American History is intertwined in our history so much they could never get all the Indian references out just because we have Universities named after Indians and the States named for Indian tribes....

[GetRDoneStangs]

WOW ! Awseome post, .......That is what I have to say!!!!!

[IHStangFan]

Originally posted by sahen
dont have to worry about the Fighting Illini, they threatened to sue just like Florida State, their money and rep helped them out there just like the Seminoles...and of course a good argument since the NCAA wanted them to just go by "Illinois" instead of Illini...the irony for all u non french speakers Illinois = Illini....the NCAA is way outa hand on this, Native American History is intertwined in our history so much they could never get all the Indian references out just because we have Universities named after Indians and the States named for Indian tribes.... amen! whats next...we going to go through the midwest and southwest and change the names of SEVERAL counties and towns? I just moved back to TX from Cochise County, Arizona, named after the Apache chief Cochise....near Ft. Huachuca....Hauchuca meaning, thunder mountain in Apache, I'm headed to Cheyenne, WY next week....might as well inform them that they might be offending someone and suggest a name change. On the city/town/county tip, I could go on for days.

[j_dog]

Originally posted by Astrosdawg07
How, that's is not the schools intention. I guess Jasper is degrading Bulldogs by using Bulldogs as their mascot.
That is true. They are. But the Bulldog lobby is rather toothless so we get away with it. ;) Now, if Bulldogs could talk, then it would be another matter. :eek:

[sahen]

the worst part of this is a lot of these smaller schools the NCAA are bashing have much less "aggressive" pratices than the Seminoles (the Illini really rnt that bad that i have seen) but the Seminoles paint up a white guy in war paint and he runs out to the middle of the field and throws a spear in the ground, and of course everyone knows the tomahawk chant....the Seminoles got away w/ this supposedly becasue teh seminole nation said they are "ok w/ it".....however the University of North Dakota has permission from the Sioux in North Dakota to use their name yet the NCAA still calls their use of the Fighting Sioux offensive....im gonna look up a letter that the president of the North Dakota wrote and post it on here for u guys...its his strongly worded protest to the NCAA and their crazy ruling on his school and its some good stuff but long if i remember, some of you would enjoy it.....

[sahen]

http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/logoappeal/openletter_6-07-06.html

WHY THE “SIOUX” MAY HAVE TO SUE

Print (PDF)

June 7, 2006

National Collegiate Athletic Association
c/o Myles Brand and Bernard Franklin
1802 Alonzo Watford Sr. Drive
P.O. Box 6222
Indianapolis, Indiana 46202

Dear All,

I have chosen to communicate with you in this way for several reasons. Since you have had what you say is the “final” word on the issue of our nickname and logo, we must now consider legal action. I want you, as well as University of North Dakota stakeholders and the general public, to know why we must. The NCAA leaves us no recourse but to consider litigation to make the point that the policy you have instituted is illegitimate and that it has been applied to the University of North Dakota in an unfair, arbitrary, capricious, fundamentally irrational, and harmful manner.

Despite some of the hard-edged language I have had to use in this letter, I bear no animosity toward any of the NCAA committee members or staff, who, I am certain, are all good people. I suspect that a few people were the driving force and that the issue took on an organizational life of its own. I’m sure that those doing the pushing were motivated by personal conviction. Whatever the origin, what emerged was, unfortunately, a kind of organizational self-righteousness. Self-righteousness has wreaked havoc in the guise of good throughout history. Once the self-righteous come to believe in the absolute correctness – political or otherwise – of their point of view, they proceed with a zeal that leaves no room for reasonable doubt, thoughtful consideration, or fairness.

I hope you understand that as the chief executive officer of the University of North Dakota, I am – as I have been – doing my best to implement a State Board of Higher Education policy governing our nickname and logo. I must also admit to a personal dislike and aversion to the corruption of logic in the convoluted process you used in arriving at your decisions. Also, because I am a graduate of Indiana University of Pennsylvania, spent time at the University of Illinois in a post-doctoral program, and serve as president of UND, I know directly what great institutions these are. They all deserve better from the NCAA than to be charged with decades of being hostile and abusive – with a presumption of guilt. I wonder if you really have any idea how serious these charges are. I admit that because of my sense of justice and fairness, I would have taken personal issue with what you have done here in any case.

The policy is illegitimate

We understood that our membership covenant with the NCAA meant that the NCAA would be even-handed, fundamentally fair, respectful of institutional autonomy, and that the affairs of the Association would be carried out according to the letter and the spirit of its bylaws. The generation of your nickname policy and its application has violated all of these principles. We had no reason to believe that the range of authority of the Executive Committee extended to affairs outside of athletics – especially in the casually arrogant way this has been done. We certainly do not believe that we agreed by our membership that – as a condition of full membership privileges – a small committee would have the authority to change the architecture of sports facilities that we do not even own or cause us to modify our very history. Athletic issues of even far less magnitude have been handled through legislation, not executive fiat. It appears there may be no recourse but to try to clear this up through litigation.

The application of the policy has been unfair, fundamentally irrational, arbitrary, and capricious

To begin with, you asserted that any use of American Indian images or nicknames was hostile and abusive. Later you changed this to hostile or abusive – as if this were meaningful in some way. Some of your initial rhetoric actually encompassed nicknames derived from any race or ethnic group. Many of us heard Myles Brand in a radio interview say that “Fighting Irish” was not a problem nickname because (his words) it was really about leprechauns and not real people. Really?

We explained that we have a beautiful logo designed by a respected American Indian artist and that we use the nickname with consummate respect – expecting and getting respect for the Sioux culture from our fans. We pointed out that we do not do tomahawk chops, we do not have white guys painted up like Indians, and our fans do not do Indian chants.

In an amazing display of organizational arrogance, Walter Harrison, in answer to the following direct question at a recent news conference:

“Are there incidents the NCAA has recorded where it (UND) appears to be hostile and abusive?" he said, obviously ducking the question entirely:

“Today’s decision was to review whether the staff’s original decision was the right one. We tried to confine ourselves to that. We believe the use of the Fighting Sioux and the mascots [he is apparently still unaware that we do not have one] and imagery [ours was designed by an American Indian] that represents (sic) are hostile and abusive and we don’t believe the University has made a case to the contrary.” [emphasis added]

Evidence? What evidence? Courts tend to dismiss hearsay and to demand and rely on real evidence.

We invited you to come and see for yourself and you refused.

We now have your letter of May 15 in which you make reference to “substantial evidence,” but nowhere in the letter is this evidence described. In lieu of evidence, you simply cite “staff review,” apparently of hearsay testimony by various local and national groups. Most of these simply assert that they are opposed to any use of nicknames anywhere by anybody at any time.

The fundamental irrationality of calling what we do hostile and abusive – on the basis of no basis at all – and then saying that a white guy in war paint, carrying a flaming spear while riding a horse into a stadium, leading fans in a tomahawk chop while singing an Indian chant is okay should be obvious to any jury. Any who try to swallow this convoluted logic will choke on it.

The NCAA’s organizational arrogance extends to the innovative and abusive use of the English language. You indicated that Florida State University was exempted because it has a “special relationship” with the Seminoles. At the time you said this, Florida State enrolled just four Seminole students. We have one-hundred times more Indian students here, yet FSU’s is a “special relationship” while ours, you say, is “hostile and abusive.”

Arrogance may not be a criminal offense or cause for civil action, but it smells bad and it may be a cause for litigation when it leads to careless, irrational, arbitrary, capricious, and ultimately harmful behavior.

“Arrogance” may be harsh, but I could not come up with a better word. When you say, as you did in announcing your most recent exemption – this time Catawba Indians:

“Although the NCAA executive committee continues to believe the stereotyping of Native Americans is wrong, it recognizes that a Native American Tribe is a distinct political community . . . therefore, respects the authority of the tribe to permit universities and colleges to use its name and imagery.”

The arrogance of this statement is appalling. It is as if to say, “American Indians may think it is OK, but the NCAA knows better,” or perhaps, “If these tribes (now at least six in number) are not astute enough to recognize that they are the objects of hostility and abuse, let them wallow in it.” Further, if a Native American tribe is a “distinct political community,” why is it that the continuing resolution by the Spirit Lake Nation that allows UND to use the Sioux name is – in the NCAA’s words – “not persuasive?”

Instead of the logical conclusion that if American Indians, themselves, think Indian nicknames are OK, perhaps they really are OK, we get the latest in a long series of non-Natives deciding what’s best for American Indians.

Although you say you considered all of the material we put into our appeal, your responses and actions indicate otherwise. I point out, again, some of the extraordinary programming we have in support of American Indian students.

American Indian education is a $12 million enterprise at UND. Much of the total is provided by the tribes themselves, by the students and their families, and by the federal government. None of this would happen, obviously, if the environment here were in any way hostile and abusive. There is also a substantial University component as well. The University annually provides about $400,000, mostly in the form of waivers of tuition specifically for underrepresented groups. Nearly all of this goes to American Indians.

We have more than 30 separate programs in support of American Indian education. Most of these are administered by a staff of seven American Indians. Most of the programs are based in a new American Indian Center funded by the University and by generous donors. These programs include a thirty-year-old Indians-Into-Medicine program which has educated about one-fifth of all (enrolled) American Indian physicians in the United States. Your action has, unfortunately, put all of this under a cloud of “hostile and abusive.” We must find some way to set the record straight.

[sahen]

In the subsequent handling of our appeal you indicated that the burden is actually on us. We must prove that the athletic program and our general campus environment are not hostile and abusive.

Although we thought it strange – perverse actually – to assume guilt until innocence was proven, or at least objectively indicated, we offered the facts that (1) our nearest Sioux Tribe gave us written permission (which still stands despite repeated attempts by the NCAA staff itself and other nickname opponents to ask the Tribal Council to rescind its resolution) to use the name; (2) we have overfour hundred American Indian students going to school here, many of whom are just fine with the nickname and none of whom would be here if the environment were really hostile and abusive; (3) it was reported to you, directly by the Chair of the Tribal Council Judicial Committee that, at the only other Sioux Reservation based in North Dakota, a district-by-district referendum resulted in nearly unanimous support for UND’s use of the Sioux nickname; and, (4) the Office for Civil Rights of the U.S. Department of Education spent a week here investigating earlier “hostile environment” charges made by our local nickname opposition group – and made no such finding – as clear indications that our handling of the nickname is in no way hostile and abusive.

Fighting Sioux and our logo are registered trademarks. The Federal Trademark Act of 1946 prohibits the registration of any mark that:

“Consists of or comprises immoral, deceptive, or scandalous matter, or matter which may disparage or falsely suggest a connection with persons, living or dead, institutions, beliefs, or national symbols or bring them into contempt or dispute.”

The fact that our mark is registered would seem to rule out “hostility and abuse,” as well.

You should be aware, because we cited it in our appeal, that in a poll of American Indians in North Dakota, more than half said their support for UND would not change if the University chose another nickname but one in four said that they would support the University less – yes, less – if we were to change our nickname. This, too, cannot possibly be reconciled with “hostile and abusive.”

We cannot fathom why all of the above is not sufficient to make the case that the climate here is anything but hostile and abusive or – even for the most zealous – raise the specter of “reasonable doubt.” Maybe it will in court.

Still later in the appeal process, NCAA staff implied that as long as there was any opposition (apparently anywhere) and despite the support we had, we would remain on the list.

How is it that a resolution from a tribe in South Dakota or Arizona stating opposition to any use of American Indian nicknames, is applied to UND (which is in North Dakota), but not to all other schools in all other states using such names?

We know there is opposition by some Seminoles and by some Chippewa to the nicknames you have exempted. The Chippewa Tribe of Central Michigan may have given its permission, but we know that other Chippewa Tribes have registered opposition – a situation identical to ours with an entirely different outcome. Any reasonable person would find this arbitrary and capricious.

There is perhaps something even more irrational. You have unfairly and illogically equated resolutions of opposition with an objective finding of pervasive hostility and abuse. In fact, nearly all of the resolutions you cite indicate that they were actually solicited by our local nickname opposition group. Some of the resolutions dated in the late 1990s referenced as the basis for the resolutions an incident that took place on campus in the early 1990s. This suggests that whatever that incident (before my time and, I’m sure, was dealt with quickly and decisively) was, it hardly describes a climate of hostility and abuse nearly twenty years later.

By the way, it was widely and cynically noted here that “Pontiac” is a corporate sponsor of the NCAA. But perhaps this is unfair; both the NCAA and General Motors may well have gotten the permission of the descendants of Chief Pontiac or the Ottawa Tribe.

As directed by our State Board of Higher Education, we have been in dialog with tribal leaders over this issue. We are now discussing both how we might agree to go forward with our nickname tradition and how we might go about changing it – morphing it maybe into a new tradition emerging from the old. Because it is clear that you have handled this issue with no particular standard, we do not know how much latitude we have going forward. Perhaps the courts will rule that you should get out of the way so that we can get on with our discussions.

As it is, you have put us in the position of being unable to change or modify our nickname because to do so would be an admission of something we know to be false.

There may be no way out of this dilemma except litigation.

We are concerned that even if we were to cave in and change our name, you might subsequently hold us hostage until the great State of North Dakota changes all of its state highway signs which now depict a silhouette of an Indian. You might, some say, insist that the Indian logos on the doors of all of our (marked) Highway Patrol cars be removed.

How far does the NCAA think its jurisdiction goes? Does it extend into history? Do you really expect us to airbrush all of the references to Sioux off the jerseys of our many national championship teams – on the many photographs and championship banners lining the walls of our sports venues?

And get this: even if we were to stop using the nickname we have used with pride for nearly eighty years, and decided to forgo any nickname – since they may all be at some future risk – and simply be known as the University of North Dakota and used the University’s seal or even the State Seal, we would still apparently be in violation of your policy. “Dakota” is what some of the Sioux actually call themselves. Our University Seal and the State Seal have images of American Indians on them.

Imagine a scenario in which we bow to the NCAA and remove every vestige of our connection to our traditional nickname, and we earn the right to host one of the exempted schools, say Florida State, in a championship game. Your policy would allow Florida State to come into town with its logo and nickname proudly displayed, led by someone who paints himself up like an Indian “on the warpath” and carries a flaming spear. He could ride into our stadium on a horse and lead FSU fans in a tomahawk chop and an Indian chant. This, while our fans, then the obvious victims of an unfair and irrational policy, seethe in rightful anger.

But there is more. Your intrusion into an area in which you had no business intruding has actually done considerable harm here and probably elsewhere. In order to leverage your opposition to Indian nicknames, opponents here have appeared to endorse your assertion that the environment here is hostile and abusive. Ironically, this has included some of the very people whose job it is to recruit American Indian students, and who have repeatedly said publicly, that we have the most supportive environment in America for Native American students. This will likely have the effect of driving Indian students away. We appear to have no choice but to pursue litigation as the only way to set the record straight.

The NCAA’s handling of our case has unfortunately left the impression that the nickname issue is an Indian vs. non-Indian issue here in the Dakotas. Rhetoric surrounding the latest Executive Committee decision implied that if we are forced to give up our nickname, it will be the fault of a single tribal leader. These impressions are, of course, false. Most Native people here are either supportive of our nickname or consider the issue trivial. There are both Native and non-Native opponents of all nicknames. We must do something to clear this up so that race relations here are not strained as a result of what you’ve done.

Should we stand firm and, with the support of North Dakota tribes, keep our nickname, we will, of course, be able to show substantial financial harm. Since we recently hosted the West Regional Hockey Tournament, it will be easy to show the benefit to the University and to the community almost down to the penny – a benefit we would lose under your policy.

I have not until now mentioned the fundamental unfairness of depriving our student-athletes of earned home-venue advantage. This strikes many of us as hostile to, and abusive of, the very group the NCAA is supposed to protect. This, we believe, is also fundamentally irrational.

Perhaps the most amazing thing is that through all of this – except for stirring things up – you have accomplished nothing. Your stand against Indian nicknames and logos – a stand that seemed to start out against all references to races and national origin – fizzled before it started when you left out Irish, Celtics, Vandals, and a host of other names. Then, for highly convoluted, hypocritical, and in some instances mysterious reasons, you exempted the Aztecs and other American Indian nicknames at the outset and, following that, you exempted the use of Chippewa, the Utes, the Choctaws, the Catawbas, and the Seminoles, leaving the NCAA position on even American Indian nicknames about as solid as room-temperature Jell-O. All of this was, and remains, highly arbitrary and capricious.

Thoughtful consideration

It may be that we have indeed forfeited our rights to fairness and evenhandedness by becoming “volunteer” members of the NCAA, but we may need to find out for sure in the courts since there really is no other membership option for UND.

[sahen]

We are taking some time to examine our case against the NCAA, giving careful consideration to all of the issues above-referenced, the likelihood of both legal and public relations success and to the cost and energy that will go into litigation. Even though we have had many offers of free legal help and financial support should we litigate, we know that our time – and yours – could be better spent. Certainly you have plenty of things to fix that really do have to do with athletics. We, too, have more important things on which to work.

All of this notwithstanding, sometimes – even at some cost and some risk – it is best to stand up to injustice.

Sincerely,

Charles E. Kupchella, Ph.D.

President

[sahen]

i know that is huge but the guy has a beef there and it pretty much explains everythign that is wrong w/ the NCAA's rulings w/ Indian names....its a good read if u get the time, but even if u cant read the whole thing just read some of it to see the hypocrisy that the NCAA is dishing out on this issue

[PPHSfan]

The Washington Redskins rock!!

If the "Native Americans" don't like it, maybe they shouldn't have let the white man take their land. I often wonder why the oppressed people of the world let things like that happen. One of these days we will be the oppressed when we let someone walk over us and do nothing. Could someone please explain to me how six rednecks could take a ship to a far away land, and bring back 1500 men in chains.:eek:

[Bandera YaYa]

Originally posted by Sweetwater Red
Don't get me started on that Tomahawk
chop the Braves and Seminoles fans do. :D I wonder just how they intend to stop the fans from doing that? :thinking:

[sahen]

Originally posted by Bandera YaYa
I wonder just how they intend to stop the fans from doing that? :thinking: they arent Ya Ya....well i cant speak for the Braves but like i said earlier the Seminoles can do waht they always have, they have been cleared by the NCAA...

[Manck]

Originally posted by PPHSfan
Could someone please explain to me how six rednecks could take a ship to a far away land, and bring back 1500 men in chains.:eek:
Guns.

Anyways, the President of UND has made the the best argument against their individual position of anybody in the NCAA. Some posters on the d2football board use this as their sig:
Imagine a scenario in which we bow to the NCAA and remove every vestige of our connection to our traditional nickname, and we earn the right to host one of the exempted schools, say Florida State, in a championship game. Your policy would allow Florida State to come into town with its logo and nickname proudly displayed, led by someone who paints himself up like an Indian “on the warpath” and carries a flaming spear. He could ride into our stadium on a horse and lead FSU fans in a tomahawk chop and an Indian chant. This, while our fans, then the obvious victims of an unfair and irrational policy, seethe in rightful anger.

[Bandera YaYa]

Originally posted by sahen
they arent Ya Ya....well i cant speak for the Braves but like i said earlier the Seminoles can do waht they always have, they have been cleared by the NCAA... Uh....my point was they won't be able to stop them.....the fans will still do it and they should be able to!

[sahen]

Originally posted by Bandera YaYa
Uh....my point was they won't be able to stop them.....the fans will still do it and they should be able to! my bad i took it literally like u were asking what they were going to do....ur right, im pretty sure the NCAA wont be able to stop their stadium of 60 or 70 thousand from tomahawking....well unless if they start throwing out unsportsmanlike flags and such, they could do that...

[Bandera YaYa]

Originally posted by sahen
my bad i took it literally like u were asking what they were going to do....ur right, im pretty sure the NCAA wont be able to stop their stadium of 60 or 70 thousand from tomahawking....well unless if they start throwing out unsportsmanlike flags and such, they could do that... ha...omg that would be kinda drastic...I'd like to see that happen.....cuz you know it's the fans who make the whole thing profitable.....