Dynasty vs Success vs Winning...a proposal

[Adidas410s]

Since I was the one who started this debate...let me try and clear the air a bit...

First off, I can see how many people can use the words success and tradition to mean the same thing. My way of differentiating the two was to say there are winning TEAMS and successful PROGRAMS. I guess a lot of people got stuck on the adjective instead of the noun. So instead...I will propose 3 distinct levels of achievement that a school can attain.

Winning TEAM - Winning occurs over a few year span...like when a school has a good bunch of players in a couple of classes and wins a lot for a few years. Look at Gilmer...they went from being a team that would consistently be anywhere from 3-7 to 7-3 and sometimes make the playoffs to going 13-1, 16-0, and 10-2 the past 3 seasons. Since 1986, they have winning % of about 60%...so on average they are a 6-4 team. Not exactly what somebody would classify as a "top notch PROGRAM." The past few years they have had winning teams and have even won a state championship. Will it continue??? It sure looks promising right now...but the jury is still out on them.

Successful PROGRAM - A successful program is similar to a dynasty. They win consistently for an extended period of time...not just 3 or 4 years. However, they are not the same as a dynasty in that their level of achievement is not quite as high. As Vet pointed out...until 20-25 years ago, nobody really thought much of Wylie. Now, they are considered one of the top programs in 3A every year because of their consistent success over a long period of time. They have made the playoffs every year but 1 since 1987 and have made it 16 consecutive years. They have lost in the state quarterfinals 3 times, the state semifinals twice, the state finals once, and won a state championship in 2004. Over the past 20 years, they have developed a tradition of winning/success that has continued with many different players and coaches...the biggest constant being their HC Hugh Sandifer.

Dynasty - This level of achievment is reserved for a select few teams. The best examples over the past 20 years would be:

1. Southlake Carroll (238-41-1)
2. Corpus Christi Calallen (230-37-1)
3. Converse Judson (226-42-4)
4. La Marque (226-45-2)
5. Celina (224-36-2)
6. Katy (216-48-0)
7. Refugio (213-48-4)
8. Austin/Eanes Westlake (206-43-3)
9. Stephenville (201-54-2)

These teams win A LOT on a consistent basis and have been doing so for many years. Most of these schools have won multiple state titles and are always a threat to win the title every year. A bad season in these programs is going 7-3 and losing in the bi-district. There are a lot of programs where that would be the greatest thing to happen in that community.

I hope this helps clear up the confusion that some people have had with what I have been trying to say. I guess I could have used Snyder as an example in the first level...but some people wouldn't take too kindly to that...plus it's so much fun to throw Gilmer into the mix! :thumbsup:

[Black_Magic]

Thanks Webster!! when is YOUR next Dictionary going to be released?:rolleyes:
I believe a succesful programs is one who consitently makes the playoffs, consistently wins or is runner up in district, and consistiently has a 6-4 or better win loss record. Success means you do well at what you set out to do in short.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Black_Magic
Thanks Webster!! when is YOUR next Dictionary going to be released?:rolleyes:
I believe a succesful programs is one who consitently makes the playoffs, consistently wins or is runner up in district, and consistiently has a 6-4 or better win loss record. Success means you do well at what you set out to do in short.

In my opinion there are different levels of success...I'm sorry it went over your head!:rolleyes:

[Crimestick]

Just out of curiosity, what would you classify West Orange-Stark? Here are our credentials under our current coach:
Overall record of 225-58-2
Two titles in 4A
Two other finals appearances (88,00)
One semifinal appearance in 3A
Seven 10-0 regular seasons
Two 15-win seasons
One undefeated season (15-0 state champs)
Last losing season was 1983 in 5A
Worst seasons were 1999 (7-3), 1996 (8-4), and 2001 (5-5)
Average of 9.3 wins per season

Although we missed the playoffs in 2002 and 2003, we did so with an 8-2 overall record each year. In 2002, we lost one game by one point. Had we not been stopped at the one, we would have been district champs.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Crimestick
Just out of curiosity, what would you classify West Orange-Stark? Here are our credentials under our current coach:
Overall record of 225-58-2
Two titles in 4A
Two other finals appearances (88,00)
One semifinal appearance in 3A
Seven 10-0 regular seasons
Two 15-win seasons
One undefeated season (15-0 state champs)
Last losing season was 1983 in 5A
Worst seasons were 1999 (7-3), 1996 (8-4), and 2001 (5-5)
Average of 9.3 wins per season

Although we missed the playoffs in 2002 and 2003, we did so with an 8-2 overall record each year. In 2002, we lost one game by one point. Had we not been stopped at the one, we would have been district champs.
Yeah it's hard to determine WO-S...that's why I didn't include them anywhere. Heck, WO-S, Sealy, and Cuero have more titles than Calallen...but their W/L record and being there in December EVERY year...I just couldn't leave them out. They are like the Atlanta Braves winning their division 13 years in a row but with only 1 state title...and few would dispute that the Atlanta Braves are a dynasty.

Here is a link to the records of teams from 1986-2004 http://www.texasfootballratings.com/LeadersOverall(1-300).html

Between WO-S, Sealy, and Cuero...if I had to put one of those teams in the "dynasty" catagory...I don't know if I could decide between WO-S or Cuero. WO-S has won 81% of their games in the last 20 years and Cuero is only at 73%...WO-S has 4 title appearances and 2 titles...Cuero 5 appearances and 1 title. Cuero has had a few "down years" where they played around .500 ball though so I guess I could go with WO-S. ;)

[CalallenWildcat]

Originally posted by Adidas410s
Heck, WO-S, Sealy, and Cuero have more titles than Calallen...

Don't hate! SHOW SOME COMPASSION!!!:mad:

[Snydertigersrul]

Not a bad concept but a dynasty is based on the number of state championships, like UCLA under John Wooten in basketball. Making the playoffs isn't a gauge. With four-team districts, three teams will go to the playoffs.

[Big Papa]

yeah that John Wooten was quite a coach...wow UCLA was lucky to have him:D :D

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by CalallenWildcat
Don't hate! SHOW SOME COMPASSION!!!:mad:

I've always liked Calallen. I lived down in Corpus for 2 seasons and followed Calallen and have ever since!

[Crimestick]

My favorite game of all time was when we beat Calallen to advance to the 4A finals against Ennis in 2000.

[Crimestick]

Here's a quote from Allan Weddell, the man who built the LaMarque dynasty, which might help at least with Cuero and WO-S ;)

"I guess our goal at La Marque has been after we started getting the success is maybe we can put this school in the name of the Abilenes, the Brownwoods, the Cueros, the West Oranges, the Judsons and the Planos," Weddell said. "Maybe we're on the verge of 20 to 30 years from now people remembering La Marque like they remember those programs. I think that with a win in this game, we might be able to be looked at like that."

This was in 1997, right in the middle of their reign.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Snydertigersrul
Not a bad concept but a dynasty is based on the number of state championships, like UCLA under John Wooten in basketball. Making the playoffs isn't a gauge. With four-team districts, three teams will go to the playoffs.

So what about Sealy??? They won 4 state titles in a row...but other than in 1999 when they reached the semfinals...they have either missed the playoffs or lost in the 1st round every year since 1997...including missing the playoffs 3 of the past 4 years. Yes they have titles...but it was a 4 year span. Other than that period, they haven't really done too much in football.

[Adidas410s]

Originally posted by Crimestick
Here's a quote from Allan Weddell, the man who built the LaMarque dynasty, which might help at least with Cuero and WO-S ;)

"I guess our goal at La Marque has been after we started getting the success is maybe we can put this school in the name of the Abilenes, the Brownwoods, the Cueros, the West Oranges, the Judsons and the Planos," Weddell said. "Maybe we're on the verge of 20 to 30 years from now people remembering La Marque like they remember those programs. I think that with a win in this game, we might be able to be looked at like that."
This was in 1997, right in the middle of their reign.

I thought about Plano, Abilene, and Brownwood. Just about all of their success was pre-1990...in Abilene's case the 1950's.
- Abilene High didn't make the playoffs for about 45 years after the mid-50's before having this resurgance under coach Steve Warren.
- Brownwood has always been a tough team year in and year out but their deepest playoff run since the early 1980's was the Quarterfinals in 2002.
- Plano...what can you say about them? They are the only school to have won a state title in every classification. Their run as a 5A Powerhouse ended in 1994. They have gone 3 rounds deep 1 time in the past 12 years and had some horrible years (3-7, 4-6, 0-9, 3-7) up until their resurgance this year. That program is hard to pin the dynasty tag on for me and a lot of that is because of the everchanging city that is Plano, Texas. It's gone from being a rural farming community with one HS to a suburb of Dallas with two mega schools to being one of the 7 or 8 biggest cities in Texas with 3 megaschools (Plano West opened in 2000) plus the city of Allen drawing in a lot of kids that could have been in Plano because they became the next "place to live" in North Dallas...and now that title goes to Frisco! Consequently, I think these changes have torn apart the tradition that Plano had built in athletics. Was Plano a football dynasty??? Absolutely!!! Are they one anymore??? In my opinion...no not really!

[Maroon87]

Originally posted by Crimestick
My favorite game of all time was when we beat Calallen to advance to the 4A finals against Ennis in 2000.

OUCH!!! Did ya have to bring that one up? I thought we were gonna steal that one, but it got stolen back from us.:doh:

[Snydertigersrul]

We really don't have dynasties any more because the good program continue to grow and move up or they start to fade and not even be in the playoffs for years.

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by Snydertigersrul
We really don't have dynasties any more because the good program continue to grow and move up or they start to fade and not even be in the playoffs for years.

other than SLC, has tehre been a realistic HS dynasty recently.... in CA you had DLS doin it for 151 games straight, but they only played to Regional titles.

[big daddy russ]

Originally posted by District303aPastPlayer
other than SLC, has tehre been a realistic HS dynasty recently.... in CA you had DLS doin it for 151 games straight, but they only played to Regional titles.
In Texas, I'd consider Celina a dynasty. 60-someodd-game winning streak. Also, take a look at Mart during that same run. I want to say they won three championships in four years. Also had a 30-someodd-game winning streak, but pitted their win streak against Celina's in the championship game a few years back.

[Adidas410s]

Permian with 11 state finals appearances and (I don't know the exact number) 5 or 6 state titles over a 30-year period??? That's a pretty dang good case for a dynasty.

Also, you could make the same case for Plano.

Granted...neither of those teams are really tearing it up these days but Plano did have a great year last year so maybe they are on the way back.

[District303aPastPlayer]

Originally posted by big daddy russ
In Texas, I'd consider Celina a dynasty. 60-someodd-game winning streak. Also, take a look at Mart during that same run. I want to say they won three championships in four years. Also had a 30-someodd-game winning streak, but pitted their win streak against Celina's in the championship game a few years back.

I remember that...
I think Quan and Quinn Cosby were playing at the time. Mart had been on an unbelievable streak, and then Celina was matching them game for game.

After Mart lost to Celina, i dont think things ever got back to being the same.