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TheDOCTORdre
05-11-2006, 08:33 PM
In a recent airing of Bob Costas' show on HBO, Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt, when asked about Barry Bonds' place in baseball history, responded that it was Babe Ruth who would "always be the guy."

In a sense, this is spot-on: Ruth will forever be an icon of the game, and he'll forever be regarded by many fans as the greatest hitter who ever was. On another level, however, Schmidt is wrong. As Bonds continues to hawk him down on the all-time home run list, it seems many fans and observers are becoming unduly attached to Ruth's eroding place in history. But that erosion is overdue.
In the statistical sense, Ruth is overvalued. The lefty-swinging Ruth benefited greatly from an inviting right-field porch (once called "Ruthville") in Yankee Stadium, where he played his home games from 1920 through 1934. Back then, the right-field line was only 295 feet from home plate, and it was only 350 feet to straightaway right field. Contrast those with the current dimensions of Yankee: 314 feet down the line and 353 to straightaway. Yankee Stadium, over the last three full seasons, inflated the home-run rates of left-handed batters by seven percent. While we don't have the necessary data to get the figures from Ruth's day, it's safe to assume that Yankee Stadium back then was even more beneficial to lefty power hitters. So his numbers need to be discounted accordingly.


Babe Ruth's cozy relationship with writers like Bill Corum kept his more unsavory personality traits from becoming an issue when he played. (AFP / Getty Images)

More important, however, is the social context of Ruth's era. Ruth played when black Americans and dark-skinned Latinos were barred from playing in the major leagues. This evil arrangement — besides being symptomatic of the racism of the day — also made things easier for Ruth. The artificially restricted talent pool meant that Ruth was thriving (and piling up all those numbers) against a lesser peer group. For instance, imagine the kind of stats, say, Lance Berkman could put up if he never had to face a Pedro Martinez, a Dontrelle Willis, a Johan Santana, a Carlos Zambrano or a Mariano Rivera and never had the likes of Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter or Mike Cameron turning doubles into fly outs.

These days, baseball draws its talent from all of North America and the Caribbean, much of Latin America, parts of Europe and Africa and the entirety of the Pacific Rim. Were Ruth competing against the "best of the best" rather than the "best of the white guys," you can be sure his numbers would be much less striking.

There are also the moral failings of Ruth to be considered. Bonds these days is subjected to (entirely warranted) scrutiny, ridicule and dismissal because of his alleged cheating. However, Ruth was anything but an angel in his day. While it's a bit too hindsighty to skewer Ruth for not rising above the mores of his time, he did gleefully participate in — and get rich off of — the racist construct that was organized professional baseball. It's fair to hold that tacit approval against him to a limited degree.

Ruth is also remembered as a loveable, convivial scamp — a Falstaff with power, if you will. The sports media of Ruth's day were more interested in mythmaking than muckraking, and, as a result, they ignored many of the Bambino's human failings. Ruth was a drunk (he was experimenting with alcohol by age 7 and drank heavily throughout his career), a glutton (his diet consistent mostly of hot dogs and soda), a malcontent (as a Red Sox, he ignored signs at the plate, once threatened to punch his manager in the face, went AWOL from the club on a semi-regular basis and ritually broke curfew) and a philanderer (he was unfaithful to his wife on a number of occasions, and it was rumored that a 1925 illness was the result of a runaway case of gonorrhea). As a result, Ruth neglected his obligations to the team by failing to stay in even passable physical shape.

Were the media of Ruth's age not so chummy, they would've etched a thoroughly different portrait of the man. These days, when many parents outsource their role modeling to celebrities, you can be sure Ruth would be derided as a bad influence to American's youth because of his lifestyle and frequent insubordination.


Phillies fans hold signs referring to Barry Bonds. (Jed Jacobsohn / Getty Images)


Ruth was a great player and — at times — a likeable figure. However, you can make a strong case that he's not the greatest hitter ever, and his peccadilloes were, more often than not, more dangerous than charming. We do well as a people to take the shine off our idols every now and again, and Ruth should be no exception. Remember him as a he was and not as the sentimentalists would have it.

lostaussie
05-11-2006, 08:37 PM
by no means. just depends on what day and age you live in. his accomplishments cannot be denied. what number are you most familiar with?and be honest. 755 or 714?

TheDOCTORdre
05-11-2006, 08:40 PM
actually its neither, its 715 that i remember the most the homer that crowned a new home run champion, Henry Aaron

LH Panther Mom
05-11-2006, 08:49 PM
You have to remember the era that he played in and the lifestyles. When you look at players today, the majority of them appear to lift weights, work out, stay in shape. I'm not saying that all players back then were out of shape, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize Ruth wasn't a athletic "specimen". Put him in today's era, and he would be hawking peanuts instead. Maybe he's not the greatest ever, but he is definitely legendary.

lostaussie
05-11-2006, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by TheDOCTORdre
actually its neither, its 715 that i remember the most the homer that crowned a new home run champion, Henry Aaron thats my point. everyone knew what it took to break the babe's record. far fewer people know that 756 will break aarons record. i loved hank. one of my alltime favorites. but i knew wht babes record was when i was 6. it has taken me 20+ years to remember aarons record.

STANG RED
05-11-2006, 08:52 PM
I see no point in judging any player from 70/80 years ago by todays standards. All pro athletes today are bigger, faster, stronger, & better trained than any of those guys from that bygone era. Also, bats and balls are probably much better now than they were then. Evan the superior playing surfaces that these guys play on now probably make a huge difference in performance. Travel is much faster and easier now than it was then. Those guys rode for hours and hours on trains back then and still played nearly as many games, in the same amount of time. Maybe we do have some illusions of The Babe, but so what. Personally, I like it that way. Reality is often overrated.

lostaussie
05-11-2006, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by STANG RED
I see no point in judging any player from 70/80 years ago by todays standards. All pro athletes today are bigger, faster, stronger, & better trained than any of those guys from that bygone era. Also, bats and balls are probably much better now than they were then. Evan the superior playing surfaces that these guys play on now probably make a huge difference in performance. Travel is much faster and easier now than it was then. Those guys rode for hours and hours on trains back then and still played nearly as many games, in the same amount of time. Maybe we do have some illusions of The Babe, but so what. Personally, I like it that way. Reality is often overrated. i agree 100%. lets take it for what it is. aaron and ruth are legendary to mine and many more childhoods. i'd like to keep it that way.

Keith7
05-11-2006, 09:14 PM
This thread is retarded.. Babe Ruth was NOT overrated.. and revolutionized the way the game was played and made baseball America's pasttime..

Saying Babe Ruth is overrated is blasphomy

hutex04
05-11-2006, 09:15 PM
babe ruth is one of the best actors of our time. He won an oscar for his piece in the 1984 movie GONE TILL SUNDAY.

Old Tiger
05-11-2006, 09:19 PM
Same wood bats...

Same pitches....


Back then not many if any knew what steroids were.

Today many use steriods.



:nerd: :thinking: :eek: :confused:

kepdawg
05-11-2006, 09:28 PM
Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and their contemporaries are underrated. I don't see how a baseball fan can be more familiar with 714 than 755. It just doesn't make sense!

Matthew328
05-11-2006, 10:28 PM
here is the thing people tend to forget about Ruth...he was also 20 win pitcher.....

imagine a great hitter like Bonds or Pujols who also pitched like a Dontrelle Willis or Johan Santana..

to me that is what sets Ruth apart...

Buccaneer
05-11-2006, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Keith7
This thread is retarded.. Babe Ruth was NOT overrated.. and revolutionized the way the game was played and made baseball America's pasttime..

Saying Babe Ruth is overrated is blasphomy

Finally Keith is right!

Buccaneer
05-11-2006, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by hutex04
babe ruth is one of the best actors of our time. He won an oscar for his piece in the 1984 movie GONE TILL SUNDAY.
I didn't know he won an Oscar in 1984 but he should have if he was acting since he died in 1948!

AggieJohn
05-11-2006, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Matthew328
here is the thing people tend to forget about Ruth...he was also 20 win pitcher.....

imagine a great hitter like Bonds or Pujols who also pitched like a Dontrelle Willis or Johan Santana..

to me that is what sets Ruth apart... not only could he pitch but they say that in the era that he is in that he was more than a decent baserunner

PPHSfan
05-11-2006, 10:37 PM
I wonder how well the Babe would do with today's equipment.

I mean, I know it's just a wooden bat, but today's are much better.

BTEXDAD
05-12-2006, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Keith7
This thread is retarded.. Babe Ruth was NOT overrated.. and revolutionized the way the game was played and made baseball America's pasttime..

Saying Babe Ruth is overrated is blasphomy

You are 100% correct, Keith7. In addition to the fact when he was young Ruth was considered one of the best pitchers in baseball, there were several years when Babe Ruth hit more home runs than any other TEAM in baseball. In order to equal this, Barry bonds would have had to hit not 73 homeruns in 2001, but about TWO HUNDRED and 73.
Didn't you people ever see the movie Sandlot? The Sultan of swat, the Colossus of clout. Heroes are remembered, but legends never die.

neck_06
05-12-2006, 08:02 AM
babe ruth was a fatty who could hit.

BTEXDAD
05-12-2006, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by neck_06
babe ruth was a fatty who could hit.

Babe was not a fatty, he was simply a little hefty.



Please, Babe, do not put the curse of the bambino on neck_06.

BullFrog Dad
05-12-2006, 08:24 AM
I wonder how Babe would have done in today's era with select baseball, clinics/private lessons, and Caribbean prospect camps as opposed to growing up with an alcoholic dad and in an orphanage mopping floors.

DaHop72
05-12-2006, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by BTEXDAD
Babe was not a fatty, he was simply a little hefty.



Please, Babe, do not put the curse of the bambino on neck_06. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

neck_06
05-12-2006, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by BTEXDAD
Babe was not a fatty, he was simply a little hefty.



Please, Babe, do not put the curse of the bambino on neck_06.

LOL! :D

big daddy russ
05-12-2006, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by neck_06
babe ruth was a fatty who could hit.
He had double digits in steals five different seasons throughout his career. He may have been "hefty" (he was 6-2, 215), but he could move.

Probably wasn't as good defensively as a Willie Mays or a Roberto Clemente, but he had one of the strongest arms in the league and more than held his own out in right field.

Old Tiger
05-12-2006, 03:26 PM
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=ruthba01

Hupernikomen
05-12-2006, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Buccaneer
Finally Keith is right!

I agree..


Anyone here ever hear of deadball era?

I mean get real..Ruth had mid 50's homeruns one year when second place was under 20........nobody else can even come close to touching that.

Some of those fields he played on where not little parks either.

Macarthur
05-12-2006, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Matthew328
here is the thing people tend to forget about Ruth...he was also 20 win pitcher.....

imagine a great hitter like Bonds or Pujols who also pitched like a Dontrelle Willis or Johan Santana..

to me that is what sets Ruth apart...

Excellent point.

Given his hitting numbers combined with his pitching, and the fact that most people don't realize is that he played during the "dead ball" period. In his time, 10 homeruns was a very good year. The ball was litterally "soft". Try hitting a "soft" baseball 350 feet!

He was the greatest. You can not overrate Babe Ruth.

big daddy russ
05-12-2006, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Macarthur
Excellent point.

Given his hitting numbers combined with his pitching, and the fact that most people don't realize is that he played during the "dead ball" period. In his time, 10 homeruns was a very good year. The ball was litterally "soft". Try hitting a "soft" baseball 350 feet!

He was the greatest. You can not overrate Babe Ruth.
1920 was the year that MLB started making their baseballs with a cork center. Babe hit 29 home runs the year before. Three guys (Tilly Walker and future HOFers Frank Baker and George Sisler) were tied for second. Each had 10.

Oh, and that was when Ruth was with Boston.

To put that into perspective, your big time sluggers during the 70's and 80's hit about 30 homers a year. Mike Schmidt led the majors with 31 back in 1981. Number two was Andre Dawson with 24. Ruth would've had a 75-homer year during the middle of the second deadball era... and he faced BETTER pitchers than those batters did (Walter Johnson was believed to have had a 102+ MPH fastball, Christy Mathewson had 7 pitches in his arsenal, Grover Cleveland Alexander was a latter-day Tom Seaver... only better, and Eddie Cicotte may be the most underrated pitcher of all time).

Ruth was a monster. Period. He led the American League in homers 12 times, led the majors 11.

Cameron Crazy
05-12-2006, 10:24 PM
Did Mr.Dre start this because Barry Roid Bonds is about to pass the big Babe:thinking:

mrescape43
05-12-2006, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Matthew328
here is the thing people tend to forget about Ruth...he was also 20 win pitcher.....

imagine a great hitter like Bonds or Pujols who also pitched like a Dontrelle Willis or Johan Santana..

to me that is what sets Ruth apart...

Ruth won almost 100 games as a pitcher.

AggieJohn
05-13-2006, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by neck_06
babe ruth was a fatty who could hit. your just mad because your a pitcher who can't hit

District303aPastPlayer
05-13-2006, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by AggieJohn
your just mad because your a pitcher who can't hit

::wipes dr pepper off of screen::

wow.

TheDOCTORdre
05-13-2006, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Cameron Crazy
Did Mr.Dre start this because Barry Roid Bonds is about to pass the big Babe:thinking:
I post alot of sports stories that I find on MSNs homepage and this one caught my eye, and I knew it would get a little attention on the DL so I posted it. I dont think Ruth is overrated I just post what I find and let y'all run with it.

AND by the way its Dr. not Mr., show some respect boy....:D